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A Game of Thrones: A Song of Ice and Fire: Book One: Ch. 16 through 23 
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 A Game of Thrones: A Song of Ice and Fire: Book One: Ch. 16 through 23
A Game of Thrones: A Song of Ice and Fire: Book One: Ch. 16 through 23



Fri Feb 21, 2014 1:26 pm
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Post Re: A Game of Thrones: A Song of Ice and Fire: Book One: Ch. 16 through 23
Game of Thrones, chapters 16-23

I am now reading this book with only 10 or so characters in mind, not paying attention or trying to remember (or take notes, as somebody suggested – too much work) all the names of all the servants, handmaidens, stable boys, etc., etc. It’s just easier and more enjoyable this way.

More killing, more deceit…I’m beginning to like Tyrion less and less: the dagger in the attempt to kill Bran turns out to be Tyrion’s, and he is startled when he hears that Bran is going to live. Tyrion promises help to Lord Mormont on the wall, but knows his promise is empty. Jon asks Tyrion to help Bran, and he answers, “You’re asking a lame man to teach a cripple how to dance…” This quote can be applied to life in general, besides this story. I keep finding these “jewels” in GRRM’s writing and I enjoy them. I’m beginning to wander if Tyrion will be the ultimate winner in all this intrigue.

A question is raised as to who is Robert Lannister really: Ned wonders “All justice flows from the King…when I know the truth, I must go to Robert…and pray that he is the man I think he is…and not the man I fear he has become.” This applies to real life…how often do we find out that people are not what we think they are…that people change, including ourselves…

Arya realizes that nobody is really her friend, perhaps not even her father…a sign of growing up...and is given permission to learn how to use the sword…interesting!

Dany realizes that Viserys cannot lead and will never be king. Her strange connection to the dragon egg, her dragon dream, and her pregnancy seems to be some kind of a premonition (at least to me) that she will give birth to the next king.

Is the wall symbolic of life in general: all the bad stuff like illness, war, death, men’s greed, deceit – all that’s bad…is it allowed to crumble because the people whose duty is to guard and maintain it know, that in the end, all those “magical” bad creatures can and will come over the wall anyway…is that why it’s guarded by old men and incapable misfits?

I do like Martin’s “jewel” expressions (that’s what I call them):
“It was bitingly cold up here, and the wind pulled at his clothes like an insistent lover.”
“You’re asking a lame man to teach a cripple how to dance.”
“The common people pray for rain, healthy children, and a summer that never ends…it is no matter to them if the high lords play their game of thrones, so long as they are left in peace…they never are.”
And there are probably many more…these just caught my eye. 

That’s all folks…reading on…



Last edited by Crystalline on Sun Mar 09, 2014 3:07 pm, edited 1 time in total.



Sun Mar 09, 2014 10:08 am
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Post Re: A Game of Thrones: A Song of Ice and Fire: Book One: Ch. 16 through 23
Just wait Crystalline, it get better (or worse, depending on your viewpoint. One correction, Robert is not a Lannister, he is Robert Baratheon, first of his name. His queen, Cersei, is a Lannister.


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Sun Mar 09, 2014 2:21 pm
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Post Re: A Game of Thrones: A Song of Ice and Fire: Book One: Ch. 16 through 23
Oooops, sorry about Robert's name...I knew sooner or later I would get mixed up :) about all those names, and nicknames, etc.



Sun Mar 09, 2014 3:05 pm
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Post Re: A Game of Thrones: A Song of Ice and Fire: Book One: Ch. 16 through 23
Crystal; I wonder about the wall myself, it certainly isn't a good place to be, But it is a reminder of the past of a time when the magic of the first people was the strongest. It was built thousands of years prior to the currant action, the decay that we read about shows that people loose their connection to that past and come to ignore the dangers of the past repeating it self,(does that make sense) the way I take it, magic has been gone a long time, so real dangers that are beyond the wall don't seem so real.

Robert Baratheon has a real Bitch for a wife, she is cruel in the most dire sense of the word, Cruel to the bone, if she has any value its that she will do what ever it takes to protect her children. Robert's confusion is from the deceit in his own house and his unwillingness to do anything about it, He has tremendous monetary debt to his wife's family and a penchant for debauchery which weaken him, He is brute force, no more no less, He's a king who won the throne but is powerless for it.

Arya is brute honesty, she is winning her way because for a child wright is might, she'll do what it takes to win, but she can't do it all alone, her wit curries her favor with though's who are in the physical stronger than she.

Eddard still bugs me, ("Ned was uncertain. The shadow of the King's Spider and his little birds had him fretting like a maiden on her wedding night".) I mean this guy doesn't trust anybody buy does little about it. It seems to me that if you take the job of the Kings Hand you'd at least put some of your people on the small council. What politician goes to work with some other persons staff of advisers.

Daenerys is strong, but has been used by people so its hard to tell where her head is really at.

Tyrion: connected to the dagger, but also to a heinous family. He can do little for Mormont and the Nights watch as the imp has no position of authority.

Sansa: Sooo happy by the attention she gets from Jeoffrey, Her innocent dreams are still dangerous.(naivete') is so unkind.



Sun Mar 09, 2014 8:22 pm
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Post Re: A Game of Thrones: A Song of Ice and Fire: Book One: Ch. 16 through 23
Winter is coming! This sentence is repeated several times. It sounds very ominous. Apparently summers and winters can last for several years. Right now, our characters are living in summer. Starks children have only known summer. But winter is coming? What does this mean? Does it mean cold, ice and snow. Living without sunlight? Or is it a prediction for danger. The wall is frigid, but even there, Imp says to Tom, "Winter is coming". Could this Stark mantra mean that Ned, through war he may take over the throne?

Arya whispered, "Winter is coming".
Ned says to her, "The hard cruel times. We tasted them on the Trident, child, and when Bran fell. You were born in the long summer, sweet one, you've never known anything else, but now the winter is truly coming. Remember the sigil of our House, Arya".

I found it interesting that Sansa pointed out that she had her mothers beautiful auburn hair, and that Arya and Tom resembled Ned. Sansa is convinced that Arya is not actually her sister. Cat is very ambitious, she is the one who wanted Ned to take the post as King's Hand. Sansa is also turning out to be very ambitious and cunning, and deceitful. Ned knew Sansa was lying about the events on the river bank, she wants to marry her prince, she wants to be queen. Cat may very well want to be queen herself.

Taylor wrote:
Arya is brute honesty, she is winning her way because for a child right is might


I like this saying Taylor, and I think it suits not only Arya well, but Ned too. It may have been cruel for Ned to kill Sansa's wolf, but Sansa was wrong and dishonorable. He makes hard choices, he beheaded the awol himself to show his children, mostly Bran, that a strong man takes responsibilities into his own hands. He relies on himself to do the right thing. Right is might.

Taylor wrote:
Crystal; I wonder about the wall myself, it certainly isn't a good place to be, But it is a reminder of the past of a time when the magic of the first people was the strongest. It was built thousands of years prior to the currant action, the decay that we read about shows that people loose their connection to that past and come to ignore the dangers of the past repeating it self,(does that make sense) the way I take it, magic has been gone a long time, so real dangers that are beyond the wall don't seem so real.


Winter is coming. These dangers are now just scary stories told to the children. But something tells me that the dangers are real. Uncle Benjen still has yet to be found.

Jon is an interesting character. He has chosen to give up his life for the wall. Why? He is smart, talented and experienced with the sword. He is young, but not afraid. The Imp has told him winter is coming, and Jon is anxious to be in the thick of things. Does Jon believe that major events will be happening soon? What might have started as an exile from his family may legitimize his position in the family if he acts brave when events start to happen.

Crystalline wrote:
the dagger in the attempt to kill Bran turns out to be Tyrion’s, and he is startled when he hears that Bran is going to live


I am at this time prepared to give Tyrion my support. His sister and brother are both fiends, and Tyrion knows this. Just because his blade was used does not mean Thrion had anything to do with it. His blade could have been stolen by Jaime, the queen could have ordered the killing, she probably did. Maybe Tyrion was shocked because his siblings couldn't succeed. Cat was also underestimated in the battle.



Mon Mar 10, 2014 12:00 am
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Post Re: A Game of Thrones: A Song of Ice and Fire: Book One: Ch. 16 through 23
"Winter is coming." Somewhere in the first book, it mentions a cataclysmic event sometime in the past that affected the seasons in Westeros (actually on the entire planet). This may or may not be related to the "Doom of Valyria" which is mentioned but not specified in "Game of Thrones." Anyway, the climate was 'turned upside down' with the result that seasons may last for many years. While 'winter is coming' no doubt refers to this phenomenon, I think it has also acquired a more sinister (?) meaning.


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Mon Mar 10, 2014 7:36 am
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Post Re: A Game of Thrones: A Song of Ice and Fire: Book One: Ch. 16 through 23
I'm not a fan of fantasy (as I commented when this book was chosen), I'm more of a realist. As I'm reading this book, I find it hard to escape from reality into this world and the characters who live there. What is often brought up is the age of the characters: 7, 8, 12, etc. As I'm reading this, I compare my 12 year old grandson to some of these youngsters/characters and their actions, and, in my mind, this becomes totally unreal...Yes, yes, I know this is an adult fairytale :)!!!
Then I wonder what's the author's motivation and fascination with children...
Is he writing about all this drama for sensationalism, or does he himself hold the views expressed in the book? I tend to believe that an author writes to express himself, his views, his dreams, his life philosophy in his writing, even when/if it is a fantasy tale.
Again, just my opinion, of course...reading on :)...



Mon Mar 10, 2014 7:53 am
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Post Re: A Game of Thrones: A Song of Ice and Fire: Book One: Ch. 16 through 23
Winter is Coming: Situations are grave, we must prepare our selves for the worst.

And then there's Jon on the Wall with his new troupe of brothers, These guys on the wall are like our modern Army infantry standing watch on the 38th parallel in Korea, the war has been over since 1952 but the situation is still very serious and dangerous, its national security.

As to the ages of characters think about it this way; The times are very barbaric, medieval, superstitious, mostly the people an times are not very advanced and so with this hard life how much does one really need to know beyond basic survival skills, Highborn children are educated in those things that they will likely be dealing with and not much more. To read, write, and do some math is something few will deal with, life being hard fought is not going to bring a long life hence what we call children are in fact a people who grow up fast. I don't think GRRM has much of an interest beyond that.

I'd like to bring up the Dog; Sandor Clegane; Very interesting story Sansa hears from him as to the burn scars on his head and face, why tell her of all people? It is very telling indeed, this man is an animal, He sliced Arya's friend in two. What do we get from this revelation? Brutality; its not a game with this guy. Sansa denies her own brutality and he knows it, its a lesson for a would be queen.

Daenerys: On the plains taming the beast that is her man, she may think Viserys to weak to be king,(he is) but Khal Drogo has nothing but mass, I think she has a lot to learn.

As always naivete' and wit.



Mon Mar 10, 2014 8:06 pm
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Post Re: A Game of Thrones: A Song of Ice and Fire: Book One: Ch. 16 through 23
I'm amused that Taylor describes Dany's treatment by Drogo as "taming the beast that is her man". Page 228 describes what is, in my opinion, a brutalizing, painful, and almost inhuman marital rape, driving her to thoughts of suicide.
"...she would kill herself rather than go on..." She was only 13-14 years old.
One tames a beast with whips, rewards of food, confinement, etc., not submission.
"I pray for home"...

Suffering, if one can survive, makes some people strong, while others give up and just exist. It always surprises me how much a human being will endure in various situations to keep on living...



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Tue Mar 11, 2014 8:22 am
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Post Re: A Game of Thrones: A Song of Ice and Fire: Book One: Ch. 16 through 23
I would not diminish on purpose the crimes perpetrated against Dany and I am not faulting her actions in response, I will point out that by page 230 she is not always crying out in pain when taken by her Khal. Is this Stockholm syndrome she's experiencing? likely, nothing romantic about her life, she has been brutalized from the beginning, and yet survives, this is why she is a great character, her emotional strength as well as developing physical strengths are propelling her forward.



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Tue Mar 11, 2014 12:01 pm
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Post Re: A Game of Thrones: A Song of Ice and Fire: Book One: Ch. 16 through 23
It had to be the black dragon with eyes of molten magma and the roaring flame from the dragon's mouth!!! :) It's a fairy tale, afterall :)!!!



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Post Re: A Game of Thrones: A Song of Ice and Fire: Book One: Ch. 16 through 23
I too was rather fascinated by some of the imagery of the wall and the characterization of the people manning it and the attitudes of everyone else toward it.

Everybody is afraid of what lies beyond the wall. Nobody wants those things to be able to cross over into their part of the world. Yet, nobody is willing to take up arms to protect it, leaving the job to criminals and people escaping punishment for their crimes. It sounds a lot like a scathing rebuke on our world, how we want to keep the bad things away, but many are unwilling to lift a finger to contribute to the overall effort to make things better.

We are so calloused that we just go on believing things will always be at least as good as they are now and no meaningful contribution has to be made to protecting what we've got. I'm not talking about natural resources and all that stuff, I'm just talking in general how we prefer to turn a blind eye to anything that makes us uncomfortable, and hope that it goes away.

I know I'm generalizing, and not everybody is like this about everything. But I think to some extent, we all do this at one time or another and play the denial game.


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Wed Mar 12, 2014 2:56 pm
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Post Re: A Game of Thrones: A Song of Ice and Fire: Book One: Ch. 16 through 23
I agree with "gesler0811"...it's our "silent majority" that never speaks up and then, when things get really bad, they/we say "why didn't somebody do something about this", or we actually pick a group of people and blame them for inaction.



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 Re: A Game of Thrones: A Song of Ice and Fire: Book One: Ch. 16 through 23
The way this thread is going reminds me of the following:

Whose Job Is It? :?


This is a story about four people named Everybody, Somebody,

Anybody, and Nobody. There was an important job to be done and

Everybody was asked to do it. Everybody was sure Somebody would

do it. Anybody could have done it, but Nobody did it. :hmm: Somebody

got angry about that, because it was Everybody's job. :furious:

Everybody thought Anybody could do it but Nobody realized that

Everybody wouldn't do it. :o

It ended up that Everybody blamed Somebody when

Nobody did what Anybody could have done. :wink:


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Wed Mar 12, 2014 4:31 pm
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