To the layman, one of the most interesting parts of Jaki's book lies in its description of how the great creative scientific discoveries of Planck and Einstein in the 20th century, point toward a universe which is best understood as the creation of a personal God. He writes: "That juggernaut [of agnosticism in contemporary philosophy of science] is of no use against those two gigantic figures, Planck and Einstein, who mark the transition from the inland sea of classical physics to the wide ocean of modern physics. Through their achievement, the world appeared more singular and more coherent than ever. The unfolding of ever deeper layers of the microcosmos and the grasp of ever farther reaches of the macrocosmos continue to be based on the quantum of action and on general relativity respectively. Although both of these theories are often presented as supports of positivism, the physical reality they bear witness to calls for an epistomology irreconcilable with positivist legislation on reality as well as on science.... The coherence displayed by singularity throughout the cosmos witnesses that although that singularity pervades the entire cosmos, it comes to the cosmos from without, from the creative choice of an intellect necessarily acting for a purpose which can, in its specifics, at most be surmised by human intellect" (pp. 322-23).

Max Planck, who denied that he believed "in a personal God, let alone in a Christian God," made this statement of faith to a friend when informed of the execution of his son in late 1944: "What helps me is that I consider it a favor of heaven that since childhood a faith is planted deep in my innermost being, a faith in the Almighty and All-Good not to be shattered by anything. Of course his ways are not our ways, but trust in him helps us through the darkest trials."



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Stahrwe wrote:The coherence displayed by singularity throughout the cosmos witnesses that although that singularity pervades the entire cosmos, it comes to the cosmos from without, from the creative choice of an intellect necessarily acting for a purpose which can, in its specifics, at most be surmised by human intellect

Nevertheless, neither Planck nor Einstein was willing to go so far as to admit the existence of a creative personal mind responsible for the universe whose objectivity they were discovering.

Interbane wrote:

Stahrwe wrote:The coherence displayed by singularity throughout the cosmos witnesses that although that singularity pervades the entire cosmos, it comes to the cosmos from without, from the creative choice of an intellect necessarily acting for a purpose which can, in its specifics, at most be surmised by human intellect

It's interesting how the mind searches for agency when we contemplate the great unknowns. It's almost as if the conclusion pops into our heads as the only solution. As if the only thing that could result in a uniform universe is an intelligence from the outside. One of the reasons we need to be skeptical of this answer is that we do have a hyperactive agency detection apparatus. This isn't just speculation, but a conclusion formed from countless observations of where we form false positives. False positives in attributing some phenomenon to a person when in fact it's the result of the natural world.

So if we recognize the need for skepticism toward the emotional answer, all we're left with as a tool of analysis is logic. Mulloy's conclusion is simply non-sequitur. Sure, there may be a deity that created the universe, but his line of argumentation doesn't show this.

ant wrote:yours is simply more of the metaphysical speculation some of us have no trouble spotting.

ant wrote:No one has to my knowledge ever understood anything better by assuming that there is no reason for why it is the way it is.

ant wrote:"You can understand evolution better when you realize there isn't reason behind the way things evolve"

Thanks for proving my point.
You didnt have to prove it so quickly

Jaki wrote:That juggernaut [of agnosticism in contemporary philosophy of science] is of no use against those two gigantic figures, Planck and Einstein, who mark the transition from the inland sea of classical physics to the wide ocean of modern physics.

Jaki wrote: Through their achievement, the world appeared more singular and more coherent than ever.

Jaki wrote: The unfolding of ever deeper layers of the microcosmos and the grasp of ever farther reaches of the macrocosmos continue to be based on the quantum of action and on general relativity respectively.

Jaki wrote: Although both of these theories are often presented as supports of positivism, the physical reality they bear witness to calls for an epistomology irreconcilable with positivist legislation on reality as well as on science....

Jaki wrote:The coherence displayed by singularity throughout the cosmos witnesses that although that singularity pervades the entire cosmos, it comes to the cosmos from without...

Jaki wrote:...from the creative choice of an intellect necessarily acting for a purpose which can, in its specifics, at most be surmised by human intellect.