Your opinions on a controversial subject

Maeveautumnrain

I want to know what people in this group think about Paganism, Witchcraft and Wicca religion?

riverc0il

how is the subject controversial? i look at those religions no differently than any other religion of the world.

Chris OConnor

In my opinion they are just as irrational as every other mystical belief system. I don't find them controversial.

MadArchitect

Taken as traditions unto themselves, I don't see anything particularly strange about them. What I find dubious about them is the claims that some of them make to ancient lineage. So far as I can tell, they're fairly recent developments that have associated themselves, mostly by their self-applied labels, to historical traditions which aren't necessarily reflected in the modern variants.

Maeveautumnrain

Okay...the reason I say they are controversial is I live as a Wiccan every day and have come across many people who are cruel, discriminatory and very judgemental, therefore to me, it is controversial. I live in a medium sized town and have trouble finding others of like minds. I would settle for those who do not share the beliefs but those who are tolerant and understanding, but that is sadly very rare. As for the ancient lineage...I know for a fact that there are specific and rare groups who do have ancient lineage. I am not following one as of now, but I do know they are there. And I also know there are plenty more who claim this but cannot substantiate it. The ones who can usually do not except within tight knit familial type groups...but most are the opposite...new and may base their path on ancient teachings but cannot claim they are from an ancient line.

MadArchitect

I think what you'll find around here is a kind of equality. The members of this community tend to either dismiss all religious traditions as bogus, or see some spark of value in almost all religious traditions, regardless of what they themselves believe. This isn't always ideal, I suppose, but it seems to be an improvement over the double standard that we run into other places.

As for substantiated claims of an unbroken historical tradition in paganism or wicca, I'd be interested to see it. I haven't seen any evidence to connect modern practices with ancient traditions, so I tend to be skeptical in regards to the claims themselves. That doesn't mean I'm not open to evidence.

mmpruitt

I was into paganism and wicca when I was younger... it was cool, but after awhile I hate to say it but I kind of grew out of it. I think the draw was that I was and still am interested in pagan religions, (specifically that of ireland and scotland) but actually being a part of one just was not for me. Now I am not really religious (though my family is episcopalian and if asked that is the christian church I affiliate with, simply because I was raised in it) but spiritual. I think that ancient paganism was on the right track, but the modern neo-pagans (at least of the Silver Ravenwolf variety) are getting too... what is the right word... cheap? It seems too easy to "buy" neo-paganism. Also, I have noticed everyone I run into who is pagan or wiccan has a totally different view of things.

-Meghan

"Are you alright? Yeah you're alright, you're alive!" -Garden State

Maeveautumnrain

I agree about it becoming a little cheap. But the ones who are that way will go away and the rest of us will still be here. I think that having a different view of things is fine. It is along the same lines as the different views of various Christian paths....to each their own.

the hive queen

These religions seem to me to be an alternative to the norm. They attract a lot of alternative-type people, in my experience; a lot like "new age". Because these religions attract such colorful people, sometimes people generalize that all witches are freaks, or whatever.

I personally don't see any reason to believe, but that goes for all religions. I am certainly tolerant of religion, as long as no one is getting hurt, so my disbelief doesn't interfere with my feelings that you should be able to believe what you want to believe. I don't think anyone has the right to act with authority when it comes to religion.

my opinions in a nutshell

"Work like you don't need the money. Love like you've never been hurt. Dance like nobody is watching." -- Keller Williams

Niall001

Quote:
As for substantiated claims of an unbroken historical tradition in paganism or wicca, I'd be interested to see it. I haven't seen any evidence to connect modern practices with ancient traditions, so I tend to be skeptical in regards to the claims themselves.

Eck! Don't get me started on this. It's a pet hate. We know next to nothing about Pagan practices (particulatly celtic pagan practices which is what most people seem to mean by pagan). I live in on an "Ancient Celtic Burial Ground (TM)" where the founding myth of some Celtic religion took place and you get all sorts of idiots with all sorts of ridiculous ideas they found in some book by some guy whose sequal was a history of the lizard people.

Reminds me of the scene in Gaiman's American Gods where Wedensday questions the waitress about her pagan beliefs. There's not really any continutiy and people tend to fill in their the large gaps that exist in our knoweldge of pagan religions with whatever suits them.

Full of Porn*

http://plainofpillars.blogspot.com

Mr. Pessimistic

So...your fantasy and made up nonesense is better than mine? Is that how it works for those who follow Christ?

Please.

Mr. P.

The one thing of which I am positive is that there is much of which to be negative - Mr. P.

Once you perceive the irrevocable truth, you can no longer justify the irrational denial. - Mr. P.

The pain in hell has two sides. The kind you can touch with your hand; the kind you can feel in your heart...Scorsese's "Mean Streets"

I came to kick ass and chew Bubble Gum...and I am all out of Bubble Gum - They Live, Roddy Piper

Mr. Pessimistic

Quote:
Reminds me of the scene in Gaiman's American Gods

I bought this book recently...is it good Niall?

Mr. P.

The one thing of which I am positive is that there is much of which to be negative - Mr. P.

Once you perceive the irrevocable truth, you can no longer justify the irrational denial. - Mr. P.

The pain in hell has two sides. The kind you can touch with your hand; the kind you can feel in your heart...Scorsese's "Mean Streets"

I came to kick ass and chew Bubble Gum...and I am all out of Bubble Gum - They Live, Roddy Piper

Dissident Heart

Landroid: "We are all rooting around in the ashes". This refers to several centuries of violent Christian repression of that religion, the opposite of "amber".

In those ashes are traces of non-flammable debris: chunks and pieces of indigestible, fire retardant, stony remnants that survive the burn of oppressive ideologies and despotic regimes.

Mad utilized the Jurrasic Park metaphor in a fitting way, and was careful to not dismiss the violent and repressive history of Imperial Christianity. I think the irony is that the force that sought to eliminate the threat (Christian contra Pagan) is the very same conduit that kept it alive...albeit in a state queerly and tragically removed from the original.

I think we are all rooting in the ashes when it comes to making sense of our complex and convoluted human history. If we are hoping to find meaning and value, to resurrect some worth from the bloody mess of it all...we have no choice but to live with the shadow cast by terrible violence and oppression. Christians have struggled with this dynamic all along in their kneeling before a Crucified Savior.

MadArchitect

LanDroid: This refers to several centuries of violent Christian repression of that religion, the opposite of "amber".

To my knowledge, the dissolution and demise of ancient paganism was not a terribly violent affair. The Church in the Early Middle Ages worked primarily by peaceful conversion, usually by appeal to the tribal leaders and kings who would then disseminate the new doctrine to his or her followers. In this regard, the Church could actually be creditted with circumventing a great deal of bloodshed since the spread of Christianity promoted the unity of previously opposed tribes. There may be some fairly heavy gaps in my knowledge of those early periods, but from what I understand, the real violence came later on, after most of the pagan world had already voluntarily converted. What violence can be levelled against those early missionaries was mostly directed to the emblems and artifacts of the old religion, not against the people.

Charlemagne's contemporary biographers may have depicted him as having converted by conquest, but the more likely historical scenario is that Charlemagne would have conquered anyway, regardless of whether or not any particular God got the glory for it.

The witch crazes are, by contrast, a late fixture, occuring a good 600-700 years later, and it's unlikely that it was directed against any real form of paganism or witchcraft. The victims were, in most cases, likely backwoods Christians. The craze originated in the Pyranese and spread from there, and historians have charted the outbreaks of witch trails to the spread of the Reformation and the Catholic Counter-Reformation.

Yes, the conversion-craze of Christianity contributed a great deal to the demise of classical paganism, and likely stamped out a good many religions. It's almost certainly to blame for the loss of hundreds of thousands of artifacts that would be invaluable to modern day historians and anthropologists. But a lot of people criticize the violence of these conversions without having much evidence to back the claim.

So if you have good information on ancient Wiccan traditions (I assume so since you have contrasted this with modern "variants"), I'm sure they would be very interested to see it.

Nope, and most of the research I've seen on ancient paganism is based in large part on secondary sources and conjecture. My point is that, because the linear dissemination of those traditions was broken a good thousand years or more ago, it's unlikely that modern day pagans and Wiccans have any more idea. For all I know, they may have accidentally formulate rituals and beliefs that are identical to those held ten centuries ago. If so, wow, fantastic; but it's disingenuous to claim an identity of belief where there's no viable mode of transmission. I don't think that necessarily undermines the validity of their religion; a new religion can be just as valid as an old religion (depending, of course, on whether or not you believe that any religion can be valid).

LanDroid

Quote:
To my knowledge, the dissolution and demise of ancient paganism was not a terribly violent affair. ...

I don't understand this line of spin-doctoring. You might want to refer to a book discussed earlier at BookTalk (prior to your arrival here I think), Demon Haunted Word by Carl Sagan. Specific methods of torture and execution as well as the scope of these activities are described. Sagan also reviews one of the most infamous books in history: The Witch Hammer.

There are some conflicting opinions at work here - one claiming modern paganism differs from ancient paganism.

Quote:
Mad says "I haven't seen any evidence to connect modern practices with ancient traditions, so I tend to be skeptical in regards to the claims themselves."

A conflicting opinion claims Christianity is the force that preserved this non-existent tradition.

Quote:
Mad said without Christianity as a kind of amber in which to trap these artifacts, we might have lost all conception of paganism altogether.

DH said I think the irony is that the force that sought to eliminate the threat (Christian contra Pagan) is the very same conduit that kept it alive...albeit in a state queerly and tragically removed from the original.

Edited by: LanDroid at: 6/22/06 11:31 pm


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