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Re: Yes. Evolution.
ant wrote:
Are you stating that the second law of thermo helps to explain life?
ant wrote:
Communication Theory dictates that noise destroys information. For a system to have the ability to create useful information from a noisy source is in itself miraculous. How does that come about by happenstance?
All I'm saying is that there is no violation of the 2nd law. It's not happenstance, mutations are random, but evolution is not a random process. If you're talking about trying to explain the origin of life, there are still speculative theories, but they are more sophisticated than just saying "poof"
Quote:
...order from disorder is common in nonliving systems, too. Snowflakes, sand dunes, tornadoes, stalactites, graded river beds, and lightning are just a few examples of order coming from disorder in nature; none require an intelligent program to achieve that order. In any nontrivial system with lots of energy flowing through it, you are almost certain to find order arising somewhere in the system. If order from disorder is supposed to violate the 2nd law of thermodynamics, why is it ubiquitous in nature? http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/faq-mis ... tml#thermo
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Was it because the dog that risked its life wanted his pal alive to help him hunt for his next meal?
Or
Did the dog want to preserve the other dog for his next meal?
Cooperative effort? How so in this particular instance?
_________________ "Quantum mechanics is very worthy of regard. But an inner voice tells me that this is not yet the right track. The theory yields much, but it hardly brings us closer to the Old One's secrets. I, in any case, am convinced that He does not play dice" - Albert Einstein.
The philosopher Richard Paul has described three kinds of people: vulgar believers, who use slogans and platitudes to bully those holding different points of view into agreeing with them; sophisticated believers, who are skilled at using intellectual arguments, but only to defend what they already believe; and critical believers, who reason their way to conclusions and are ready to listen to others."
Last edited by ant on Thu Jan 26, 2012 4:56 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: Yes. Evolution.
I can't say with authority, but it looks to me that what you have there is a dog trying to save another dog because it saw that it was in danger.
That does seem to be a selfless act, though, doesn't it? If morality is just an aspect of evolutionary life, then that can be explained. If it is instead granted to humans through divine providence as a special gift to humans, then it become more problematic to explain.
Let me try to clear up any messy language i might have used in that previous post.
cooperative work is more successful than going it alone. But it isn't the case, necessarily, that the dog is thinking "i should save that dog so he can help me later", but rather, through generations of dogs which have helped one another survive when they would otherwise have been destroyed, those disposed to helping have proliferated and that activity has become more pronounced. Especially when you factor in the human selective pressure of friendly dogs for pets.
So there would be a tendancy toward helpful behavior, rather than a tendancy toward domineering behavior.
These things can be subverted through aggressive training or desperate survival scenarios, but that's what you have there.
The point i want to make is that it isn't necessarily a calculated move.
This doesn't mean cooperation is the only way to live successful lives, because there are many forms of life without this more charitable aspect, but this is the evolutionary root of morality, if you ask me.
_________________ Have you tried that? Looking for answers? Or have you been content to be terrified of a thing you know nothing about?
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Re: Yes. Evolution.
Quote:
but it looks to me that what you have there is a dog trying to save another dog because it saw that it was in danger.
That is self-evident
Quote:
If morality is just an aspect of evolutionary life, then that can be explained.
Are you saying that because it is safe to say that science has provided a reasonable explanation for the development of morality, then this dog's heroic actions may simply be a moral action/decision it made to risk life and limb? I thought since this was a much lower level of intelligence, that this dog would follow self preservation instincts by reflex? He clearly is not preserving himself to assure both his next meal and the spreading of his genes.
Quote:
but rather, through generations of dogs which have helped one another survive when they would otherwise have been destroyed, those disposed to helping have proliferated and that activity has become more pronounced. Especially when you factor in the human selective pressure of friendly dogs for pets.
Okay, so this dog reasoned in perhaps this manner:
"The priority here is neither my next meal or my next hump; I (self awareness? I'm wondering to what extent) need to get that dog out of harms way."
Quote:
The point i want to make is that it isn't necessarily a calculated move.
If you were the one that ran onto the freeway to save the dog, it would have been a calculated more. However, from the perspective of the dog, it was not, because it was one of its own. So, heroism was necessary to save the dog to keep his species alive to see tomorrow.
Hmmmmm...,interesting
_________________ "Quantum mechanics is very worthy of regard. But an inner voice tells me that this is not yet the right track. The theory yields much, but it hardly brings us closer to the Old One's secrets. I, in any case, am convinced that He does not play dice" - Albert Einstein.
The philosopher Richard Paul has described three kinds of people: vulgar believers, who use slogans and platitudes to bully those holding different points of view into agreeing with them; sophisticated believers, who are skilled at using intellectual arguments, but only to defend what they already believe; and critical believers, who reason their way to conclusions and are ready to listen to others."
Last edited by ant on Thu Jan 26, 2012 7:14 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Yes. Evolution.
Quote:
I thought since this was a much lower level of intelligence, that this dog would follow self preservation instincts by reflex?
Not self-preservation, but gene-preservation. Which means a potential attachment to other organisms. Primarily related organisms, but this can be short-circuited(a goose raising a duckling).
_________________ “In the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and has been widely regarded as a bad move.” - Douglas Adams
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Re: Yes. Evolution.
Interbane wrote:
Quote:
I thought since this was a much lower level of intelligence, that this dog would follow self preservation instincts by reflex?
Not self-preservation, but gene-preservation. Which means a potential attachment to other organisms. Primarily related organisms, but this can be short-circuited(a goose raising a duckling).
Self preservation to preserve genes that will hopefully be passed on at a later time. The dog in this video - what is your explanation?
_________________ "Quantum mechanics is very worthy of regard. But an inner voice tells me that this is not yet the right track. The theory yields much, but it hardly brings us closer to the Old One's secrets. I, in any case, am convinced that He does not play dice" - Albert Einstein.
The philosopher Richard Paul has described three kinds of people: vulgar believers, who use slogans and platitudes to bully those holding different points of view into agreeing with them; sophisticated believers, who are skilled at using intellectual arguments, but only to defend what they already believe; and critical believers, who reason their way to conclusions and are ready to listen to others."
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Re: Yes. Evolution.
Excellent TedX presentation. I have a TedX conference in my future. Did he say at the end this is the way we have morality develop without god getting involved ? He is talking about the god of traditional religious views. Its not unfathomable to think every living thing developed from the same source This should not discourage progressive believers in the least. It should fill them with a greater reverence for all life.
_________________ "Quantum mechanics is very worthy of regard. But an inner voice tells me that this is not yet the right track. The theory yields much, but it hardly brings us closer to the Old One's secrets. I, in any case, am convinced that He does not play dice" - Albert Einstein.
The philosopher Richard Paul has described three kinds of people: vulgar believers, who use slogans and platitudes to bully those holding different points of view into agreeing with them; sophisticated believers, who are skilled at using intellectual arguments, but only to defend what they already believe; and critical believers, who reason their way to conclusions and are ready to listen to others."
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Re: Yes. Evolution.
ant wrote:
Excellent TedX presentation. I have a TedX conference in my future. Did he say at the end this is the way we have morality develop without god getting involved ? He is talking about the god of traditional religious views. Its not unfathomable to think every living thing developed from the same source This should not discourage progressive believers in the least. It should fill them with a greater reverence for all life.
Yes, you can always interpret evidence as consistent with God. You say there is evidence that whales evolved from mammals? Well, God made them similar, of course!
But the evidence on morality in animals shows that God is less necessary to explain it in humans. Most theists, especially the evolution deniers, believe that there is a sharp dividing line in these characteristics between humans and other animals, the evidence shows this is not tenable.
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Re: Yes. Evolution.
Dexter wrote:
ant wrote:
Excellent TedX presentation. I have a TedX conference in my future. Did he say at the end this is the way we have morality develop without god getting involved ? He is talking about the god of traditional religious views. Its not unfathomable to think every living thing developed from the same source This should not discourage progressive believers in the least. It should fill them with a greater reverence for all life.
Yes, you can always interpret evidence as consistent with God. You say there is evidence that whales evolved from mammals? Well, God made them similar, of course!
But the evidence on morality in animals shows that God is less necessary to explain it in humans. Most theists, especially the evolution deniers, believe that there is a sharp dividing line in these characteristics between humans and other animals, the evidence shows this is not tenable.
You sound as if you take umbrage in my belief that evolution's power is directed by intelligence not yet fully understood (as so many things are and possibly always will be) as opposed to it being randomness, empty of any real meaning other than survival. It's a shallow view, but satisfactory for those that need nothing else beyond observation. It's fair, I guess.
And yes, perhaps your morality is simply herd morality and nothing more. Success!!
_________________ "Quantum mechanics is very worthy of regard. But an inner voice tells me that this is not yet the right track. The theory yields much, but it hardly brings us closer to the Old One's secrets. I, in any case, am convinced that He does not play dice" - Albert Einstein.
The philosopher Richard Paul has described three kinds of people: vulgar believers, who use slogans and platitudes to bully those holding different points of view into agreeing with them; sophisticated believers, who are skilled at using intellectual arguments, but only to defend what they already believe; and critical believers, who reason their way to conclusions and are ready to listen to others."
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Re: Yes. Evolution.
I wasn't posting that as some evidence against a creator god, exactly. Most people have a pretty fluid ability to credit god for whatever they want, so it shouldn't be difficult to give this one to god as well.
People who want to think of humans as being seperate and special will say that morality is a uniquely human invention. It isn't, and this video helps illustrate that pretty well.
I've said before that all the tendancies we recognize about ourselves that make us human are present in many other animals, especially those in our lineage, and it's just a matter of changing proportions. This is true of our physical makeup and the difference between a chimp's pelvis and ours, and it is true of our social structures.
We are at the extreme end of the social sliders that make up humanity, but that doesn't mean that those social behaviors are exclusively human, and that doesn't make us fundamentally different and seperate from other animals.
Here's a video on animal intelligence. I may have posted this elsewhere, but it's worth a look in this thread as well.
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Re: Yes. Evolution.
johnson1010 wrote:
I wasn't posting that as some evidence against a creator god, exactly. Most people have a pretty fluid ability to credit god for whatever they want, so it shouldn't be difficult to give this one to god as well.
People who want to think of humans as being seperate and special will say that morality is a uniquely human invention. It isn't, and this video helps illustrate that pretty well.
I've said before that all the tendancies we recognize about ourselves that make us human are present in many other animals, especially those in our lineage, and it's just a matter of changing proportions. This is true of our physical makeup and the difference between a chimp's pelvis and ours, and it is true of our social structures.
We are at the extreme end of the social sliders that make up humanity, but that doesn't mean that those social behaviors are exclusively human, and that doesn't make us fundamentally different and seperate from other animals.
Here's a video on animal intelligence. I may have posted this elsewhere, but it's worth a look in this thread as well.
Chaser the dog remembers the names of a thousand stuffed animals. Neil DeGrasse Tyson puts her to the test.
Quote:
Ant: It's a shallow view,
You throw that around a lot, Ant. What exactly do you mean by that? What deeper view can you provide?
I think some people are angry with literalists/fundamentalists who want to influence legislation and educational institutions.
It goes beyond the above concern when atheists scoff at a person's simple expression that they believe there is more to creation than what we are currently able to explain. The agenda becomes different. It's haughty. It's bullying. It's empty intellectualism.
Go ahead. Express your opinion. I'll follow up with my own,
_________________ "Quantum mechanics is very worthy of regard. But an inner voice tells me that this is not yet the right track. The theory yields much, but it hardly brings us closer to the Old One's secrets. I, in any case, am convinced that He does not play dice" - Albert Einstein.
The philosopher Richard Paul has described three kinds of people: vulgar believers, who use slogans and platitudes to bully those holding different points of view into agreeing with them; sophisticated believers, who are skilled at using intellectual arguments, but only to defend what they already believe; and critical believers, who reason their way to conclusions and are ready to listen to others."
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Re: Yes. Evolution.
ant wrote:
I think some people are angry with literalists/fundamentalists who want to influence legislation and educational institutions.
It goes beyond the above concern when atheists scoff at a person's simple expression that they believe there is more to creation than what we are currently able to explain. The agenda becomes different. It's haughty. It's bullying. It's empty intellectualism.
Go ahead. Express your opinion. I'll follow up with my own,
johnson can say whether he agrees with me, but I am simply making the case that the world can be explained by science and bringing in a supernatural being is unnecessary. Does science know everything? Obviously not. But notions of God add nothing to our explanations.
Why do I care whether someone believes in God? I don't really -- as you said, unless they are trying to influence policy or something -- but I just enjoy debating with people and seeing if their beliefs can stand up to scrutiny, and I think the world should have less ignorance. If you take offense, then you should refrain from debate.
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Re: Yes. Evolution.
Quote:
but I am simply making the case that the world can be explained by science and bringing in a supernatural being is unnecessary.
Who here has denied the explanatory power of science? I don't care if you consider my amazement and belief in an intelligence unable to be explained by science as something supernatural or metaphysical. Science often dives into metaphysics when there is a a bridge that can not be crossed by its observational explanatory ability. Your insecurity with that is apparent.
Quote:
but I just enjoy debating with people and seeing if their beliefs can stand up to scrutiny
Regarding legislation and schools affected by religious ideology - you know what you can do about that, right? Get up, get out, and vote for change.
You've debated nothing here. There was no claim made that was up for debate You were more antagonistic than anything. I think it was childish and dumb of you.
_________________ "Quantum mechanics is very worthy of regard. But an inner voice tells me that this is not yet the right track. The theory yields much, but it hardly brings us closer to the Old One's secrets. I, in any case, am convinced that He does not play dice" - Albert Einstein.
The philosopher Richard Paul has described three kinds of people: vulgar believers, who use slogans and platitudes to bully those holding different points of view into agreeing with them; sophisticated believers, who are skilled at using intellectual arguments, but only to defend what they already believe; and critical believers, who reason their way to conclusions and are ready to listen to others."
Last edited by ant on Sat Apr 28, 2012 10:39 am, edited 2 times in total.
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