Why study Philosophy?

GOD defiles Reason · Posted: Fri Mar 17, 2006 12:12 am Post subject: Why study Philosophy?

Indeed. Why study Philosophy?

Would you encourage someone who hasn't read much philosophy to do so? Why? What would a person stand to gain in doing so?

Where should a beginner start? I've noticed that there are lots of books on philosophy, and lots of philosophers. I would like to kinda size up what's there and look for the best doorway in.

How can I streamline my reading for optimum benefit? I don't think it's necessary to start with the first philosopher, read his entire works, and then go to the next philosopher and read his entire works and so on. That would probably take a lifetime. I bet I could probably read two or three good, quality books about all or most of the philosophers, get a general idea of what made them important, what their major accomplishments were, their place in history, and what influence they had on society and human thought. After I've gotten a sense of who they were and what they did, then I could go back and pick out who I wish to read more about/of.

That shouldn't be too tough, ay.

If that's not complicated enough, here's one more twist. From what I've read so far, it appears that some of these philosophers were either disturbed, eccentric, or severely depressed and such. I'm interested in that aspect. I'm interested in their psychological make up, and the context of their lives -- not just what they wrote. I want to try to understand why they wrote what they wrote.

Mr. Pessimistic · Posted: Fri Mar 17, 2006 10:33 am Post subject: Re: Why study Philosophy?

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disturbed, eccentric, or severely depressed and such

I find that these are the most creative and innovative people generally.

I think philosophy has it's place and is important...we can gain insight by the work of important thinkers in our past. But at a point, we have to pick a 0-point and stop philosophizing and realize that we CAN know things and we do...and then focus on that as reality. If we allow people to think it is ok to believe any old thing because two people see the same color differently, there is a defect there.

Mr. P.

The one thing of which I am positive is that there is much of which to be negative - Mr. P.

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Niall001 · Posted: Fri Mar 17, 2006 12:41 pm Post subject: Re: Why study Philosophy?

You can't help but study philosophy, it is what humans do. Philosophy (with a capital P) is just a systemised version of what we do every day. It approaches the BIG questions from a logical perspective in a self reflective manner. Which you'd imagine might be useful, if your goal is to answer those BIG questions.

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MadArchitect · Posted: Fri Mar 17, 2006 3:21 pm Post subject: Re: Why study Philosophy?

GOD defiles Reason: Would you encourage someone who hasn't read much philosophy to do so? Why? What would a person stand to gain in doing so?

Look at it this way: would I encourage a random person on the street to read an article on diabetes? No, but I might recommend it to someone who either had diabetes or knew someone who had recently been diagnosed with diabetes. The same goes for philosophy. Different philosophical works deal with different questions, and those works are likely to be meaningful only to the people for whom those questions are likewise meaningful.

Probably the most broadly applicable example would be ethics. Historically, ethics has tried to answer two questions a) what kind of behavior is appropriate, and b) how do we attain the good life. And there may be people who are not interested in those questions, or who are satisfied with whatever answers they've already come up with, but for anyone who still treats those as questions that need answering, there's ethical philosophy.

Where should a beginner start?

Depends on what matters to you. I've already shown you two of the basic questions in ethical philosophy. Some other questions you might ask: how can we be certain of anything? How do we know what's true and what isn't? What is justice, and how do we attain it? What's the best form of government?

How can I streamline my reading for optimum benefit?

Everyone takes their own path. A pretty good way to go about it, though, is to figure out what sort of questions you're looking to answer, then get a recommendation on that topic from someone who has read a lot of philosophy. From there, just keep your eyes peeled and follow up on your references. If the book that you're currently reading mentions Rene Descartes, then take a swing at Descartes.

From what I've read so far, it appears that some of these philosophers were either disturbed, eccentric, or severely depressed and such. I'm interested in that aspect.

Then read Nietzche. I suggest starting with "Ecce Homo".

GOD defiles Reason · Posted: Fri Mar 17, 2006 5:37 pm Post subject: Re: Why study Philosophy?

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Mr P: I find that these are the most creative and innovative people generally.

That is interesting, isn't it? Reminds me of some ancient Chinese or Zen words that I can only paraphrase: "Out of calamity comes fortune. Out of fortune comes calamity. Hardship makes the thoughts run deep."

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Mr P: But at a point, we have to pick a 0-point and stop philosophizing and realize that we CAN know things and we do...and then focus on that as reality.

I don't disagree with you. But I haven't read much philosophy, and I'd like to start.

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Nail: ... but I never really studied any of those writings "properly."

It's not like I intend to study them as a college student would. But if I'm going to read anything at all, I think adding some philosophy to the mix might be a benefit, maybe even essential.

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MadArchitect: Historically, ethics has tried to answer two questions a) what kind of behavior is appropriate, and b) how do we attain the good life.

Is there a way to trace the origins of those questions? Are there thinkers you can think of who addressed and presented those questions in a way that would palatable for man whose had his head up his ass for the past 20 years or so?

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Mad: but for anyone who still treats those as questions that need answering, there's ethical philosophy.

Judging by the people we elect to rule us, and our current justice system, I'd say those questions are still more than relevant today.

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Mad: Depends on what matters to you. I've already shown you two of the basic questions in ethical philosophy. Some other questions you might ask: how can we be certain of anything? How do we know what's true and what isn't? What is justice, and how do we attain it? What's the best form of government?

yes. All of the above.

Here's what I'm trying to do. And I'm hoping this thread will help me accomplish this. I'm trying to chart a course for myself in having some pretty basic understanding of philosophy. I realize this will take some time. I imagine that I will be reading some form of it from this point forward.

What I hope to be able to do is find a book or two or three about all or most of the philosophers, written by a reputable author who has a passion for the subject. And in these first few books, some kind of overview of their work is discussed, and a little bit about their lives is discussed. From those few books I should be able to pick and choose what's more interesting to me.

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Mad: A pretty good way to go about it, though, is to figure out what sort of questions you're looking to answer, ...

That's part of my problem right now. I think I'm attempting to keep specific questions at arm's length, and looking for questions that I'm not yet aware of.

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Mad: ... then get a recommendation on that topic from someone who has read a lot of philosophy.

As far as this board is concerned, I think you da man.

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Mad: Then read Nietzche. I suggest starting with "Ecce Homo".

Noted.

MadArchitect · Posted: Mon Mar 20, 2006 9:48 pm Post subject: Re: Why study Philosophy?

GOD defiles Reason: Is there a way to trace the origins of those questions? Are there thinkers you can think of who addressed and presented those questions in a way that would palatable for man whose had his head up his ass for the past 20 years or so?

Depends on what you mean by palatable. I wouldn't suggest going to popularizations, or even works that are popular mostly for their accessibility. Works that pander are rarely ever capable of expressing great thought. That isn't to say that all good philosophy is dry and laborous, but you're more likely to find your effort rewarded if you make yourself adequate to the thought, rather than looking for thoughts that are adequate to your current situation. From what I know of you, I'm sure you'll put in the needed effort. You may have had your head up your ass for the past 20 years or so, but you seem to be sincere about wanting to dislodge it.

If you want to start with ethics, Aristotle is a good starting point. He's less esoteric than Plato, who tends to sideline into metaphysics, and Aristotle is the basis for several thousand years of ethical thought. If nothing else, reading Aristotle's "Nicomachean Ethics" ought to make it easier to understand why later philosophers like Kant and Spinoza take the tact that they do.

If you want to trace the question rather than read about some answers, Cornford's "From Religion to Philosophy" is one of the few books I've seen that is serious about tracing the origins of Greek philosophical thought.

Judging by the people we elect to rule us, and our current justice system, I'd say those questions are still more than relevant today.

That brings up a few more divisions. There's political philosophy -- which, incidentally, Aristotle thought of as the parent of ethical philosophy -- and social philosophy. Political philosophy was particularly popular during the formative phase of post-medieval Europe. Hobbes, Mill, Hamilton, Rousseau -- all of those guys were writing political philosophy, and the course taken by Western civilization in the last several hundred years is due in no small part to their influence. As for social philosophy, Confucianism is a particularly interesting early social philosophy, and a lot of people have misunderstood its significance by not recognizing that it is social philosophy.

I'm trying to chart a course for myself in having some pretty basic understanding of philosophy. I realize this will take some time. I imagine that I will be reading some form of it from this point forward.

Probably so. If you really get interested in philosophy and the problems it tackles, it makes for lifelong work.

What I hope to be able to do is find a book or two or three about all or most of the philosophers, written by a reputable author who has a passion for the subject.

There are books like that, but I haven't read any, so I can't make any personal recommendations. I have noticed that Will Durant's survey is well spoken of and readily accessible, if that helps. But personally, I think reading a book like that is likely to be more helpful if it gets you interested in a particular philosophical problem, rather than in any capacity it might have for giving you the broadview of the history of philosophy.

For smaller periods, I might be more helpful. W.K.C. Guthrie's "The Greek Philosophers", for instance, is a concise, readable survey of the Greeks up to Aristotle, and does a good job of showing the unity of that period of philosophy. Personally, I think smaller surveys are probably better, simply because you're more likely to find a real unity in smaller historical chunks rather than looking at the whole of 3000 years of philosophy.

As far as this board is concerned, I think you da man.

Don't depend on me alone. There are lots of people on this board who have read philosophers I haven't even attempted to tackle, and their recommendations are worth considering as well. I tend to specialize in certain areas, and that limits me.

Mad: Then read Nietzche. I suggest starting with "Ecce Homo".
GdR: Noted.

I was kind of kidding. I think Nietzche makes for interesting reading, especially if your interest is in abnormal psychology. He's part of a long, only tenuously connected lineage of philosophers whose philosophy is wired in peculiar ways to the calamities of their life. If your interest is in philosophy itself, though, I'd start somewhere else.

GOD defiles Reason · Posted: Thu Mar 23, 2006 8:08 am Post subject: Re: Why study Philosophy?

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Mad: From what I know of you, I'm sure you'll put in the needed effort.

No no no... If it feels like work, I won't do it. I intend to get some pleasure out of this. I get a kick out of imagining Socrates being a thorn in the sides of his contemporaries. I think Voltaire had a flair for criticizing both the established church as well as some Enlightenment thinkers of his day, so he's on my list. I get into characters of the past like some folk get into their favorite character in fiction.

But at the same time, I do want to know how we got here. How our system of government came to be what it is. How we can know what we think we know. How some of these ideas got started. What conditions existed when some of these ideas came about.

I like to daydream.

I don't know who else was doing great works and philosophical thought at the time. But would Plato have become who he became if he had not known Socrates? Would Aristotle have written and taught what he did if he were not a student of Plato? What would Christianity have been like in the Middle Ages if those three minds had not came in succession the way they did? How much influence did Greek thought have on Jewish tradition before Jesus came along? Did Socrates ultimately influence Jesus?

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You may have had your head up your ass for the past 20 years or so, but you seem to be sincere about wanting to dislodge it.

Yeah, I do like to sneak out and take a peek now & then.

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If you want to start with ethics, Aristotle is a good starting point. He's less esoteric than Plato, who tends to sideline into metaphysics, and Aristotle is the basis for several thousand years of ethical thought. If nothing else, reading Aristotle's "Nicomachean Ethics" ought to make it easier to understand why later philosophers like Kant and Spinoza take the tact that they do.

You see, I'm not even sure what metaphysics is. But the connection between Aristotle's thought and later philosophers is the kind of information I'm looking for.

I wanted to read Kant's 'Critique of Pure Reason,' but I don't think I'm ready for that yet. Maybe later.

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Probably so. If you really get interested in philosophy and the problems it tackles, it makes for lifelong work.

Stop saying work, ay.

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Don't depend on me alone. There are lots of people on this board who have read philosophers I haven't even attempted to tackle, and their recommendations are worth considering as well. I tend to specialize in certain areas, and that limits me.

You're the one doing most of the responding. I figured I would get more input from other folk, too.

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I was kind of kidding. I think Nietzche makes for interesting reading, especially if your interest is in abnormal psychology. He's part of a long, only tenuously connected lineage of philosophers whose philosophy is wired in peculiar ways to the calamities of their life. If your interest is in philosophy itself, though, I'd start somewhere else.

Un-noted.

Actually, he sounds pretty interesting. Look at all the emotions DH went through from reading his work.

I'm just getting information and enjoying the dialogue as I do. It's not like I'm running out and buying these books without looking into 'em. I may post my own suggestions of the searches I come up with.

MadArchitect · Posted: Thu Mar 23, 2006 3:58 pm Post subject: Re: Why study Philosophy?

GOD defiles Reason: If it feels like work, I won't do it. I intend to get some pleasure out of this.

Certain forms of work are pleasure. What kind of work you'll end up enjoying is a matter of temperment, but also a matter of practice. I won't put much effort into convincing you that philosophy is fun, but I will say that when you've got a question that nags you like an inaccessible itch, making yourself adequate to a difficult text is sometimes the only way to scratch it.

But would Plato have become who he became if he had not known Socrates? Would Aristotle have written and taught what he did if he were not a student of Plato?

Oh, definitely not. Plato got not only the rudiments of his thought from Socrates, but his philosophical method is an adaptation of Socrates firm belief that philosophy should be the work of two minds in dialogue, rather than the sophistry of a lecture. Both Plato and Aristotle went through periods of working on the problems of their predecessors, then periods of departure, to some degree.

Did Socrates ultimately influence Jesus?

Possibly, though probably in a very indirect way.

You see, I'm not even sure what metaphysics is.

Aristotle's also a good source for understanding metaphysics as a category.

I wanted to read Kant's 'Critique of Pure Reason,' but I don't think I'm ready for that yet.

Reading Kant is definitely work if you're not sure of the philosophical context in which he's writing.

Actually, he sounds pretty interesting. Look at all the emotions DH went through from reading his work.

Nietzsche is interesting. I just think you're likely to better appreciate his successes and understand how far removed from the path some of his ideas are if you have a basis elsewhere, first. Actually, understanding Greek philosophy is a good basis for tackling Nietzsche. He regarded himself as something of a latter-day Greek.

Dissident Heart · Posted: Thu Mar 23, 2006 9:54 pm Post subject: Re: Why study Philosophy?

GDR: What would a person stand to gain in doing so (studying philosophy)?

A greater appreciation of how little they actually know, and the agitation of those who claim to know so much. In some cases, Socrates for example, this combination can lead to a cup of hemlock and an intimate opportunity to explore what exactly we mean by the word "death".

They will gain the appreciation of thoughtful folk and the rage of pretentious oafs. New problems and puzzles will arise in life that carry profound significance, such that often their prior life's obligations seem like shadows on the wall: empty of substance, void of meaning. What was once important and pressing becomes trivial and inane; and life is suddenly full of challenging arguments that demand a response.

Wonder will develop into a guiding drive as they struggle to make sense of the world, themselves and the many questions that probably perplexed them as children: where do we come from? who am I? where is everything headed? what am I supposed to do? what is the meaning of life? what is good, true, and beautiful? how do we know what we know?

MadArchitect · Posted: Fri Mar 24, 2006 2:57 pm Post subject: Re: Why study Philosophy?

Um, maybe. Or they might just get bored and wish they had gone for a swim instead.

Philosophy doesn't do anything for you. It only challenges a person if they're looking for a challenge. It only benefits a person if they're willing to extend their self.

Dissident Heart · Posted: Fri Mar 24, 2006 6:03 pm Post subject: Re: Why study Philosophy?

MA: they might just get bored and wish they had gone for a swim instead.

Or salsa dancing, cooking salmon, sketching the sunset, planting daffodils, to a jazz ensemble or, hell, even a sermon. Some will dig it, and some won't: I think my soliloquy on the study of philosophy was meant for the former.

MA: It (philosophy) only challenges a person if they're looking for a challenge.

I think philosophy can sneak up on you as well: an univited question, a persistent and challenging dialogue that exposes a blind spot...even a scathing corrective by a skilled dialectician. All of these, and others, can spark an otherwise dull agent into enlightened excitement: whether they like it or not.

Keeping this flame alive is the issue you rightly refer to; and it will take work and a will to extend oneself under the scrutiny of others.

GOD defiles Reason · Posted: Sun Apr 02, 2006 9:21 am Post subject: Re: Why study Philosophy?

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MadArchitect: I don't know how much I trust Amazon reviews, really. I do sometimes look through them, just to get a better sense of what the book is about, but I rarely take them at face value as recommendations. That's just my personal quibble.

I have my own quibbles about the Amazon reviews. The editorial reviews are usually done by Amazon or the editor or the publisher, and they're seldom negative. I often wonder if some of the "costumer reviews" aren't really plants. So there's a certain amount of distrust when I read them, but I read them with the hope that the editorial reviews aren't outright lies.

Thanks, DH. Those look like a good ones for including Eastern philosophy.

GOD defiles Reason · Posted: Wed Jun 14, 2006 10:57 am Post subject: Re: Why study Philosophy?

Has anyone read The Philosopher's Toolkit or something like it?

Dissident Heart · Posted: Thu Jun 15, 2006 10:49 am Post subject: Re: Why study Philosophy?

GDR: Has anyone read The Philosopher's Toolkit or something like it?

Looks like an informative and valuable resource for understanding important elements of Philosophy: logic, argumentation, and rhetoric.

I wonder if it contains the necessary tools and skills that Nietzsche envisions when he describes the task of Philosophy in his book Beyond Good and Evil: Prelude to a Philosophy of the Future:

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The philosopher as we understand him, we free spirits—as the man of the most comprehensive responsibility who has the conscience for the collective evolution of mankind: this philosopher will make use of the religions for his work of education and breeding, just as he will make use of existing political and economic conditions.

The influence on selection and breeding, that is to say the destructive as well as the creative and formative influence which can be exercised with the aid of the religions, is manifold and various depending on the kind of men placed under their spell and protection.

For the strong and independent prepared and predestined for command, in whom the art and reason of a ruling race is incarnated, religion is one more means of overcoming resistance so as to be able to rule: as a bond that unites together ruler and ruled and betrays and hands over to the former the consciences of the latter, all that is hidden and most intimate in them which would like to exclude itself from obedience;

and if some natures of such noble descent incline through lofty spirituality to a more withdrawn and meditative life and reserve to themselves only the most refined kind of rule (over select disciples or brothers), then religion can even be used as a means of obtaining peace from the noise and effort of cruder modes of government, and cleanliness from the necessary dirt of all politics.

Some questions:

1. Do you agree with Nietzsche's assertion that the Philosopher is "the man of the most comprehensive responsibility who has the conscience for the collective evolution of mankind"? Why or why not?

2. In what ways should the Philosopher utilize religion, education, politics, economics, and breeding; and toward what goal or end?

3. Is/should the Philosopher a person "that is strong and independent, prepared and predestined for command, in whom the art and reason of a ruling race is incarnated"?


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