Why is this book a classic on the literature circuit ?

Penelope · Posted: Fri Feb 29, 2008 7:08 pm Post subject:

DWill - you posted this three times......We are having gale force winds here......and the Internet keeps going off.......

Are you having the same problems?.......

a good point is worth making three times.....You and Robert Tulip are so erudite that I need to read you three times anyway.

Laughing

ginof · Posted: Sun Mar 02, 2008 1:25 am Post subject: really liking this thread....

no, not that DWill's post was done 3x Laughing

but what's discussed here is really the heart of the matter. I can remember the discussion from high school about 30 years ago now (wow, i'm old!) about this exact point. What is being said here by Conrad.

While M has established himself as a credible observer, there is always the possibility that he is still blinded by his longstanding reverence for K. This can be a reason why he still supports him in the end. while I'm not completely convinced by this argument myself, I don't think it can be completely discounted.

And K's last words: What exactly is the horror? Is it K's own actions? What K saw? What K did? Is it that K couldn't believe that he wasn't 'successful': i.e. made it out of there with his fortune? Is it really a final moment of self reflection that he couldn't believe what he had become or was it that he had not learned anything: the 'horror' of dying among the 'savages'?

I think it's the fact that we can sit here and have an interesting discussion about these issues that make this book a revered work of literature. It's long enough that the characters are developed enough that you know enough to ask these questions about them. However, it's short enough that you are not completely sure of the answers. There is just the right amount of ambiguity that people can come to different answers in good conscience.

Personally, I don't think Kurtz learned a thing. I think his dying words are his own disappointment at the way things turned out for him. He would do anything for money and felt it was his due. He was the consummate imperialist. Marlow however, is the conscience of the book. The one Kurtz doesn't seem to have. He struggles with many things, and he (perhaps) doesn't always come up with the right answer. Just like every conscience. However, it's his process of the struggle that makes good reading. It also taps into something personal in each of us as we recognize the struggle, although perhaps not this one exactly.

Ophelia · Posted: Sun Mar 02, 2008 5:24 am Post subject:

Ginof wrote:

Penelope · Posted: Sun Mar 02, 2008 7:06 am Post subject:

I echo Ophelia here....this is an excellent post and right on topic!!!!

Ginof said:-

Ophelia · Posted: Sun Mar 02, 2008 7:16 am Post subject: Rent a copy of Apocalypse Now

I hope you will forgive me for repeating myself:

Constance wrote: "I have not seen "Apocalypse Now" myself, but if people are interested in discussing it, I'm sure I can pick up a rental copy."

I haven't heard from HD readers about the film yet, I hope you are considering it, I really enjoyed watching it in this context.

Penelope · Posted: Sun Mar 02, 2008 7:51 am Post subject:

Ophelia - if you and the others 'order' me to watch the film - I will.

Can't get motivated.....can't work up the initiative.....you will need to give me strict instructions....... Cool

Ophelia · Posted: Sun Mar 02, 2008 8:37 am Post subject:

Hmm, this is a strange one.

I wasn't expecting people to write in answer to every single one of my postings in HD, and I was prepared to give up the postings that got no response.

Still, about "Apocalypse Now", I find it would really be a shame if people didn't have a go at it. I explain in posting XIII-1 that I din't like the film when I saw it over twenty years ago, and the second viewing was such a good surprise.

What can I say to tempt you?
The visual aspect of the film is stunning, this was the main pleasure for me.

The part about the crazy French colonizers in Cambodia is also quite something and very well made.
By the way, get the REDUX DVD version of the film (I'm told "redux" is from the Latin and means "brought back") if you have the choice, it's better.

Marlon Brando is fine, but it would be wrong to think he's the main attraction of the film.

Again, if people told me they did not like the film and had nothing to say, I would leave it at that, but in the absence of such comments, I thought I would mention the film a few times and see what happened.

I'm going to add a few questions in my HD- XIII heading in case that's what is missing.

Robert Tulip · Posted: Mon Mar 03, 2008 5:21 am Post subject:

DWill · Posted: Mon Mar 03, 2008 8:57 am Post subject: Sorry 'bout that!

I have a touch of malaria, maybe, am raving a bit like our dear Kurtz, saying essentially the same thing over and over? No, really, I didn't pick up on how the posts are cached and thought mine weren't going through. You all deserve an "A" for your suffering.

Will

Penelope · Posted: Mon Mar 03, 2008 9:02 am Post subject:

I wonder what that long conversation with the powerful African lady was about?

She didn't want him to go did she? She must have known he was dying...but wanted him to stay at the settlement with her.

I keep wondering about her and what she symbolised......because actually there is quite a long description of her appearance......strutting up and down the beach. She, like Kurtz, seems to be a powerful character. Nothing namby pamby about her. Marlow could have told her the truth couldn't he? When he couldn't bring him self to do so to the European woman.

DWill · Posted: Mon Mar 03, 2008 9:21 pm Post subject:

Ophelia,
I'll make an effort to watch "Apocalyse NOw." It's been an awfully long time since I saw it.

The African woman at least seems to have more going for her than her main competition, the lovely Intended!

Another thing to add about Kurtz's final words. Why does Marlow hear them being "spoken" as he visits the Intended? He may be hallucinating, but doesn't his hearing them also bring the "horror" home, so to speak, right back to the Sepulchral City where, we could fairly say, the horror originated? This view seems in line with what RT has been saying about Kurtz realizing, perhaps, what larger forces he has been an agent of.

I don't agree that Marlow ever admires Kurtz for his insane achievements. I think admire would be the wrong word. He's fascinated, I think, by someone who has become so totally a renegade and who has been taken over by the powers of darkness. At least there is something majestic, if still perverse, about Kurtz. You couldn't say the same about the other traders. They are cowardly, venal, and arrogant. His admiration of Kurtz seems to be confined to how he turned out in the end, strangely enough.

Ophelia · Posted: Mon Mar 03, 2008 9:30 pm Post subject:

ginof · Posted: Thu Mar 27, 2008 8:20 pm Post subject:

[quote="Robert Tulip] a fruit salad of Marx and Kipling. [/quote]

that is just bloody BRILLIANT! Laughing

Hi Robert,

You have some good thoughts there, along with the great fruit salad. Again, this is why this is an great book: There is so much to think about in such a small package!

Thomas Hood · Posted: Fri May 02, 2008 9:03 pm Post subject:

Isn't 'the horror' that if the darkness can strip the veneer of civilization from one so strong as Kurtz then it can do the same to anyone?

Tom


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