That's your belief Interbane. That the universe came into existence with it's laws,complexity and order entirely unguided and uncreated and with no purpose.
Do we start with believing a whole bunch of stuff, or do we start with believing only the most basic? I don't believe the universe was created with purpose, because that's adding something that is unnecessary. It's like saying the universe was created with magic and umberbuckel. Why make the claim? Where is the evidence for the claim? If you point to those areas where purpose is evidence, I'd point you right back to the thread that shows how we falsely attribute purpose. You haven't made the case. I believe the universe came to exist without purpose(along with a million other things it lacks), because we lack evidence that it is the case. If purpose were inherent, the evidence would be undeniable. I deny the evidence, and I do believe I'm reasonable when I do so, with counter evidence and pragmatic reasoning.
Flann wrote:I agree that reality is imperfection with earthquakes etc.
My point is that this unguided purposeless universe has laws and complex order not to mention aesthetic beauty which you attribute to unguided natural forces.
If such forces are capable of such a high degree of creativity why should they fall short of perfection?
Even if these forces have such a high degree of creativity, what makes you think they should achieve perfection as well? Perfection is a human ideal. It's an ideal that is fantasy, such as a place where humans live forever in peace and happiness - heaven. Ideals are reality taken to the utmost extreme. It's our imagination at work. It's not how the natural world works.
Flann wrote:Perhaps accidentally they could have achieved perfection?
I don't see how. Could you give me a specific example of what, exactly, you're talking about? In what way could perfection be achieved in our universe?
Flann wrote:The Christian explanation includes reasons for the laws,complexity,and order in the universe in conjunction with the out of kilter elements not just being a matter of the creator's incompetence to achieve perfection.It explains both.
No, Flann, it doesn't. Saying that god "created" everything explains absolutely nothing. It's a non-answer. It gives us nothing. We are better to admit we don't know than to believe in such fabricated answers. At least if we admit we don't know, our minds will remain open to the truth, if it ever comes our way. Perhaps the truth is that a god created everything. If that is what's true, then it will come clear in time. But right now, we have no freaking clue. Stories written by Romans are evidence that Romans wrote stories.
But to make something clear, you don't merely believe in such a naturalistic deity. You believe in a god that intervenes in human affairs. Your claim to knowledge goes beyond mere creation of the universe. There is much more in your worldview, a plethora of superfluous additions that were useful ages ago in understanding reality, but no longer fit.
Flann wrote:I question the capability of a universe to self create and unguided achieve the immense order and complexity it does achieve.
Are you omniscient? The universe is far grander and more complex than you or I could ever imagine, and that's true even if no deity exists. In order to even entertain the thought that something is impossible, you'd need to know how the entire universe works. Not only the universe, but all of reality. Other universes, etc. Contrary to what you might think, that's exceedingly arrogant. No one can know, yet you claim to.
Flann wrote:The naturalist view underwrites a philosophy of meaninglessness, exemplified by Dawkins assertion that at bottom there is no purpose,no good or evil,nothing but blind pitiless indifference.
You have to try extract,meaning,purpose and morality from a mindless,purposeless,morally indifferent reality.
We don't "try" to extract meaning and purpose. We accomplish the feat. My life has purpose. Why would you suggest I lack purpose?