Why i am confident there are no ghosts.

johnson1010 · Thu Feb 18, 2010 5:41 pm

Imagine a man wakes up in the morning. He's in a rush to get to work and puts on two different length socks, ties a shoe too loosely and it comes undone later, just as he is leaving his house.
He misses a bit of hair behind his jaw when he shaves, because he is in a hurry and thinks he might be late to a big meeting at work. He spends a frantic 5 minutes searching for his car keys when he finally spots them hanging there on the key-hook, right where he should have looked to start with.

He gets in his car and en-route to work he is driving too agressively and gets into a life-ending wreck.

O.K. Now, maybe not all together, but you have probably been through the kinds of mistakes this imaginary guy made getting ready for work. Missing stubble, losing your keys, not being able to think strait when in a hurry... whatever. People do these kinds of things all the time.

I'm supposed to believe a guy who can't make it to work on time is capable of bending the rules of the universe, reversing direction through the veil of death, reaching from beyond the grave and manifesting himself through some mystical energy just so he can come back and hang out in his old house? This guy probably couldnt balance his check-book, never mind escaping heaven or hell to close a door when nobody is looking!

Just think about it.
complete nonsense.

geo · Thu Feb 18, 2010 8:05 pm

It isn't through lack of trying that no evidence has come up for the existence of ghosts. Folks have surmised their existence for hundreds, maybe thousands of years, but somehow no one ever comes with with anything solid. It's always funny to see a true believer offer up "evidence" which is nothing more than anomalies on film or reflection of light in the lens of a camera. Or my favorite, the EMF meter which detects fluctuations in electromagnetic fields. Never mind that the fluctuations are just random, but in the hands of a true believer they can be said to be evidence of a paranormal presence.

bleachededen · Thu Feb 18, 2010 9:55 pm

Humans need to believe in ghosts because we fear the unknown, and how much more unknown can you get than death? Because we fear death, and because we don't want to let go of the people we have lost, we (as a species, not saying I agree) need something to hold on to to let us hope that there is more to death than nothingness. Getting to haunt your old house or spy on your former family after you die sounds far more comforting than what we, deep down, really know to be true: our bodies decay and become one with the earth and the cycle starts again. Ghosts are like a safety net that I have to admit often sounds enticing -- that no one is ever really gone, no one ever really alone. The truth is fare more depressing, and you can't really blame people for hoping for something different.

oblivion · Fri Feb 19, 2010 9:20 am

Some peoples have buried their beloved beneath the flooring in their dwellings, hoping the spirit of the loved ones would be with them forever. This was especially true in the bronze age. Believing in ghosts was not something frightening for them but rather comforting. The spirit--non-existent--was called on to keep them safe and protected from something that actually was in existence, such as wild animals, hostile neighbours, puerperal fever, hunger, etc. I've always found this fascinating. We're always more willing to turn our lives over to something which does not exist than to take it into our own hands. What does this say about people's confidence in themselves??
In other countries, especially Asia, ghosts are present on a day-to-day basis with the living and having a picnic in a graveyard is simply having a good ol' time with members of the family, dead or otherwise. The concept of ghosts and spirits is extended even to animals which can be more frightening and threatening as opposed to humans (although I'd be the first to admit I don't think the "ghost" of a fox would do anything to get my adrenaline up and going).
I suppose the point I'm trying to make--and doing a wonderful job of skirting around the issue--is that the concept of ghost as we know it in the West does not necessarily have anything to do with the East. And since the concepts are sometimes at opposition with each other, I would say the concept of "ghost" thus negates itself.
But yes: whether ghost, spirit, gods, fairies, killer swans or whatever, we humans enjoy the drama of making quite ordinary occurances seem theatrical. We much prefer a good story to a logical explanation. Which sounds more exciting--"the door hinge is a bit rusty and squeaking; we need to oil it"; or, "a spirit from another world is trying to enter our house with a message from the Hereafter but can't seem to make it through"?
We are such comedians!

bleachededen · Fri Feb 19, 2010 3:05 pm

I agree, oblivion, humans are hilarious, and yet frightening at the same time. I would be far more afraid of a living human being than a dead one*.

(*Unless that dead human is a zombie. I have a completely irrational fear of zombies. I love watching zombie movies and note the political messages that almost always go with them, but still fear the time when "the dead shall be raised incorruptible" -- that to me means zombies, and while I know there is absolutely no evidence of this actually happening, I still harbor the fear. At least I know it is irrational -- it even makes for great jokes at my expense. :-P

)

geo · Fri Feb 19, 2010 5:24 pm


	oblivion wrote: Which sounds more exciting--"the door hinge is a bit rusty and squeaking; we need to oil it"; or, "a spirit from another world is trying to enter our house with a message from the Hereafter but can't seem to make it through"? We are such comedians!

I agree, apart of the appeal of ghosts is that their existence reassures us of an afterlife. In fiction the supernatural helps dramatize certain psychological ambiguities of the protagonist. The ghost in Hamlet, for example, represents the sins of incest and murder, but also helps show Hamlet's uncertainties and reluctance to accept his father's murder. In the first scene Hamlet can't even be sure if the ghost is really his father or a temptation from the devil. In the Haunting of Hill House, the paranormal disturbances are manifestations of Eleanor's complicated feelings towards her dead mother. In a way we want to live in a comfortably structured world, but in an ironic sense, we are also relieved when something unknown and strange confronts us, for it verifies there are still things out there that are mysterious and unknowable. A sense of danger is something that still excites and enthralls us. We want to believe there are still monsters lurking about at the edge of the sea.

Zombies represent something else I think. I don't know what. :lol:

DWill · Fri Feb 19, 2010 6:35 pm


	oblivion wrote: But yes: whether ghost, spirit, gods, fairies, killer swans or whatever, we humans enjoy the drama of making quite ordinary occurances seem theatrical. We much prefer a good story to a logical explanation. Which sounds more exciting--"the door hinge is a bit rusty and squeaking; we need to oil it"; or, "a spirit from another world is trying to enter our house with a message from the Hereafter but can't seem to make it through"? We are such comedians!

I love it. The comedy of it all doesn't get enough attention. Robert Wright also brings in our desire to win distinction for ourselves. We can garner attention and influence by being the one who was lucky enough (or chosen?) to see this manifestation of a spirit.

Eyebrowse · Fri Mar 05, 2010 10:42 pm

I see what your saying but your going on the premise that a person who dies is making the decision to bend the rules as you say and will himself back for a half life as a ghost. To spend a very long time watching real people enjoying real life and being unable to participate him or herself. Why would anyone take this decision on their own behalf ? Where does the will and the desire of a mere human being come into making or creating any of this phenomena for themselves based on their own free will and in realms that are beyond mere human capability or understanding ?

If mere man can invent a tape recorder or a camera and then use those to capture an experience of himself to be replayed over and over and over again. Then couldn't a higher power do the same thing using none other than the far, far superior means at his disposal, ie the fabric of the universe ?

bleachededen · Sat Mar 06, 2010 12:23 am


	Eyebrowse wrote: I see what your saying but your going on the premise that a person who dies is making the decision to bend the rules as you say and will himself back for a half life as a ghost. To spend a very long time watching real people enjoying real life and being unable to participate him or herself. Why would anyone take this decision on their own behalf ? Where does the will and the desire of a mere human being come into making or creating any of this phenomena for themselves based on their own free will and in realms that are beyond mere human capability or understanding ? If mere man can invent a tape recorder or a camera and then use those to capture an experience of himself to be replayed over and over and over again. Then couldn't a higher power do the same thing using none other than the far, far superior means at his disposal, ie the fabric of the universe ?

You know...I don't even know what this means.

I don't know where you get the assumption that anyone here is stating that everyone who dies gets to choose whether or not to become a ghost. That's ridiculous, and no one has said it or even considered it (if that's what you believe, then that's fine, but that's not being discussed here at all).

What is being discussed is firstly, why ghosts do not exist, and second, why humans feel the need to believe that they do. No one here is questioning the actions of presumed ghosts, but whether or not they even exist.

Eyebrowse · Sun Mar 07, 2010 12:40 am

bleachededen wrote:


	Eyebrowse wrote:

You know...I don't even know what this means.

I don't know where you get the assumption that anyone here is stating that everyone who dies gets to choose whether or not to become a ghost. That's ridiculous, and no one has said it or even considered it (if that's what you believe, then that's fine, but that's not being discussed here at all).

What is being discussed is firstly, why ghosts do not exist, and second, why humans feel the need to believe that they do. No one here is questioning the actions of presumed ghosts, but whether or not they even exist.

Yes but the op was saying how he doesn't think ghosts exist and it's all nonsense based on his own assumption that the man in his story couldn't defy the laws of the universe or cheat the gream reaper by reversing death. So for that man to go against those two things and come back as a ghost he would have to be making some kind of concious decision to will his spirit to do that. That would involve some kind of a choice to come back and dwell after death wouldn't it ?

I'm not assuming anything about anyone making decisons to be or not to be a ghost (other than the op). Merely trying to imply that I believe ghosts aren't living entities, but merely ghosts or traces if you like of living peoples who have lived at some point. Lingering energy.

I forgive you for calling me so far, ignorant, flippant and now ridiculous and i've only just joined as well.

But I like to talk and I like to think and what good would a debate be about ghosts if I had follow these two premises to be able to take part ?

1. Why ghosts don't exist.

2. Why people need to believe that they do.

Being tied down to those doesn't cover the subject of ghosts comprehensively eh ?

johnson1010 · Sun Mar 07, 2010 1:04 am

Like death echos, Eyebrowse? Just sort of a reverberation of an event, so we can catch a glimpse of it?

That doesnt hold any water with me either.Energy-wise, we are a bump in the background radiation. Our output is meaningless next to a volcano, continental drift, or even a stream. Our energy dissipates with our cooling corpse and there is nothing left to leave an imprint once our brains turn off.

If echos of energy were possible, surely anyone could walk through Pompei and watch the whole terrible scene unfold right in front of our eyes. Can you imagine a more emotional, panic strewn, tear shedding, pleading to god moment than Pompei? Surely that, if anything, would have left enough of our energy around for the most casual observer to get a look. But where are the ghosts of pompei? Nowhere.

It doesnt happen. Ghosts are another invention we cooked up to comfort ourselves when we imagine the abyss of death yawning at our feet.

bleachededen · Sun Mar 07, 2010 1:10 am


	Eyebrowse wrote: I'm not assuming anything about anyone making decisons to be or not to be a ghost (other than the op). Merely trying to imply that I believe ghosts aren't living entities, but merely ghosts or traces if you like of living peoples who have lived at some point. Lingering energy. I forgive you for calling me so far, ignorant, flippant and now ridiculous and i've only just joined as well. But I like to talk and I like to think and what good would a debate be about ghosts if I had follow these two premises to be able to take part ? 1. Why ghosts don't exist. 2. Why people need to believe that they do. Being tied down to those doesn't cover the subject of ghosts comprehensively eh ?

So far, I haven't seen any signs that you think at all, only that you spout out whatever you feel about a subject, regardless of how valid a point it is.

However, in this last post I have seen you actually think by calling me out on limiting your debating options. I was wrong there, you have as much a right to talk about your beliefs about ghosts as we do about our unbelief. Thanks for pointing that out, because until you did I didn't realize how unfair it sounded.

I do still think that you make invalid assumptions and that in many other posts you don't have your facts straight before you give your flawed insight on them. Perhaps you'll learn a thing or two, and hey, as you say, you've only just joined and you're already getting attention, so I guess you could say you're doing pretty well. :-P

johnson1010 · Wed Mar 10, 2010 12:12 am

So, why do ghosts wear clothes?

Assuming that ghosts are real, and one shows up in a photograph wearing a shirt, jeans, boots and glasses. Discarding that it is obviously just a picture of a guy wearing these items and not the ghost of some set designer who hung himself on the set of three men and a baby only to haunt the film forevermore, why would a ghost wear clothes?

Ghosts are supposed to be the spirits of people who passed on, right? Well, did his clothes die with him? Shouldn't all ghosts really be naked?

Why is this ghost wearing glasses? Did the glasses die? Is that the spirit of his horn-rimmed specs? Why would he need glasses? Is he really still using his eyes? Whats more, does he suffer from oracular degeneration... while being dead?

You don't even have to dig too deep to find mountains of THIS IS BULLSHIT. It just jumps up onto your chest like a playful mastiff puppy. no way to ignore these muddy paw prints.

Interbane · Wed Mar 10, 2010 1:26 am


	Quote: 2. Why people need to believe that they do.

Comfort, for one. If you want detail into the human belief engine, read "How We Believe" by Michael Shermer. It's a good read.


	Quote: 1. Why ghosts don't exist.

Before you ask that question, you have to first postulate that ghosts exist. The idea needs to come from somewhere. Then, you need evidence to support the claim. Don't underestimate how fiendishly clever your fellow human beings can be at finding evidence. If you can see a ghost, that means there is something to be seen, and some data is being transmitted. Energy of some sort? Photons. Pretty much any hypothesis you could formulate can be detected. No ghost has ever been detected. People have tried, trust me. So then, the only hypothesis you have to go with is that ghosts are undetectable. But then, how could you see them, or even know of them? How is it any better than hypothesizing that there is an invisible undetectable dragon living in the White House? What is it you're seeing if you do see a ghost?

What is it you're seeing if you see something which isn't real? A mirage, an illusion? Such explanations are skeptical, but most certainly not cynical. There is a critical difference. Part of the explanation is in how people are pattern seekers. We seek patterns, whether visual or temporal. Pattern seeking is crucial for survival. Not only is it beneficial to seek patterns, but it's also to believe they are real, even if they're not. For example, the man who sees orange and black stripes in the grass and honestly believes it's a tiger has a greater chance at survival than the man who sees the same stripes but doesn't believe it's a tiger. To believe in false patterns is in our genes. It is better to believe in a false pattern than to not believe in a real pattern.

We see patterns everywhere. Animals in the clouds, people in the stars, the virgin Mary on a piece of bread, your dead grandpa in a swirl of fog. When you combine the fact that no ghost has ever been detected with the fact that we're biased to believe false patterns, the answer jumps out at you. Ghosts are only real inside our heads. Not that I expect you to believe me. After all, you're biased to believe in ghosts. :wink:

Suzanne · Wed Mar 10, 2010 9:14 am

One of my favorite stories my mother would tell me was about ghosts, or, I should say the lack of them. My great grandparents were Welsh, the Welsh are a very ghostly type. It was taken as a promiss that after one of my great grandparents died, the deceased spouse would return as a ghost to visit. This was a Welsh belief, and was relied upon. My great grandmother outlived her husband and waited, and waited for her beloved to return to her as a ghost, never happened. And my great grandmother was devastated, and angry that they had relied on "that rubbish". She also said that if she had died first, and could not come back to visit, it would have killed her husband. My great grandparents were heavily predisposed to this belief, whole hearted belief, and nothing came of it. This is why I am confident, there are no ghosts.

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