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TH If you imagine that the irrational groupthink fog that is critical thinking has anything to do with Galileo, you are mistaken.
Here lies the problem… TH will find a way to reject any example offered by finding flaws in the material even though those flaws have nothing to do with the method of thinking used by the person of interest.
The fact remains that Galileo had to honestly consider data that had not been seen before and he had to challenge earlier assumptions of the solar system to do it, this thought process led him to his new and original conclusions.
Like it or not, the above process is indicative of critical thinking.
Later
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Robert Tulip The critical attitude is good, but it can also calcify in an uncritical way into a sort of group view, for example the assumption that atheism is smart and theism is stupid. People holding this assumption will use it as a prejudice, seeing religious language as stupid and backward and scientific language as intelligent and progressive, and considering society as split between good (modern) and evil (traditional). The problem here is that such divisions are very unclear and dubious. There is a lot in traditional culture which is valid and adaptive, but modern culture has a tendency to want to sweep all tradition away. Of course this tendency is chastened by memory of the tumbrels and the terror, but revolutionary fanaticism remains beneath the surface in the condescending attitudes of moderns towards piety and ritual.
Well TH seems to think that theists should expect such prejudice, surely you must be aware that in the minds of many people theists are all associated with all of the “tumbrels and terror” of the past as well as its totalitarian nature…
I refer you to TH’s logic on the matter…
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TH About the discrimination you have experienced as an atheist, surely you are aware that in the minds of many persons, atheism and its rebellion against tradition has been a main prop of atheistic totalitarianism. When you are considered to be part of such a horror, you should expect others to be punitive.
Of course I seriously doubt that he thought that his logic would be used in such a matter… but that is the problem with lacking common sense.
But I do not believe that that is good logic anyway… a person should only be judged on their individual merit and actions, not solely on their beliefs, irrational or otherwise.
Seriously though you do make a good point… people who embrace the virtues of critical thinking sometimes do abandon religion and its few truly virtuous aspects… but I suspect that that is because they realize that those aspects are commonplace in our culture and religion is not needed to be a healthy and happy person.
I do not know weather or not that realization leads to prejudice, most atheists have religious friends… we have to… there are not enough atheists out there to have them exclusively as friends… if that were the case I would have no friends locally… I have yet to meet another atheist here in rural New York.
Are there prejudice atheists? Sure, almost certainly… but as a persecuted group in America it is possible that the prejudice you mention is a result of active bigotry and not the belief of the individual targeted by prejudice.
However you may notice that religious belief and the bigotry towards atheists go hand in hand.
You may also note that atheists rarely, if ever, scrutinize the beliefs of Wiccans or Buddhists… did you ever wonder why?
It’s because those religions do not actively try to convert or demonize us… Christians do.
I think any prejudice you may see is most often a retort to the demonizing theists, not one of intellectual elitism.
Of course this is only my opinion, but I think it’s worth consideration.
Later
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TH Yes, I agree. It is a fine example of the Seven Virtues of Critical Thinking, -- and also of its Seven Deadly Sins. Instead of turning to text and context autonomously and making up your mind independently, you are dependent upon another person for your views. Critical thinking replaces objective, independent thought with social dependence.
Here you go stretching the truth again… Suzanne is not dependant on Aussie_Lifter’s opinion but she is willing to consider it and in doing so she may find a more suitable approach to the material.
You may note that Suzanne did come to her own conclusion but remained open to other ideas as to the meaning of the reading.
And finally she is going to read the book again to confirm the material… showing that she is willing to independently research the material and confirm Aussie_Lifter’s opinion.
Your claims that she is dependant on another and that she did not make an independent judgment are both wrong, and that can easily be seen by reading her post.
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TH However pleasant the social activities of Critical thinking may be to some, they cannot replaces objective work -- personal investigation, research, and responsibility.
I wonder if you are aware just how contradictory your idea of critical thinking is.
First of all critical thinking is often times not very pleasant… it involves putting aside your personal view and truly exploring credible opposing views.
Secondly… when you research what do you think you are looking at?
It’s another person’s studies and findings on the topic… according to you that information cannot be considered because then you will be socially dependant.
We are all socially dependant for our information, and that is why critical thinking is so important, we need a good tool for separating the junk from the truth... critical thinking has proven itself to be the best tool to date.
You can whine and cry about it and try to discredit it but its record speaks for itself.
You might see this if you could let go of your prejudice for just a moment.
Finally critical thinking is the most responsible approach, especially if the truth of the matter is of any importance, which I gather from your arguments, is NOT important to you.
You would rather be a cry baby calling life unfair because the fairest way of thinking makes religion look irrational…
Would a pacifier help stop your whining?
Later
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Thomas Hood wrote:
It is a fine example of the Seven Virtues of Critical Thinking, -- and also of its Seven Deadly Sins. Instead of turning to text and context autonomously and making up your mind independently, you are dependent upon another person for your views. Critical thinking replaces objective, independent thought with social dependence.
This is absolute nonsense. The "acquired behavior patterns" of a critical thinker are what some guy came up and posted on his blog. It's just a web site, dude. No one here had ever seen Ellis' blog, much less incorporated Ellis' random thoughts into some sort of creed. I thought Ellis' examination of critical thinking was interesting, nothing more. You are simply making stuff up, Thomas. The question is why?
Frank 013 wrote:
Are there prejudice atheists? Sure, almost certainly… but as a persecuted group in America it is possible that the prejudice you mention is a result of active bigotry and not the belief of the individual targeted by prejudice.
However you may notice that religious belief and the bigotry towards atheists go hand in hand.
You may also note that atheists rarely, if ever, scrutinize the beliefs of Wiccans or Buddhists… did you ever wonder why?
It’s because those religions do not actively try to convert or demonize us… Christians do.
I think any prejudice you may see is most often a retort to the demonizing theists, not one of intellectual elitism.
Of course this is only my opinion, but I think it’s worth consideration.
Later
These are excellent points. Atheists are an oppressed minority group in America. As such, we have to respond forcefully just to make ourselves heard. Even so, many people will do anything to shut us up (including imagining atheism to be something akin to Naziism). The word "atheist" is constantly being misconstrued to mean something sinister and foreign. Even on this board we have to continually remind people that "atheist" only means without belief in God. At the very least, most people seem to insist on believing it means an active disbelief in God despite that most atheists are the agnostic variety. Agnostic atheists simply accept the fact that there is not evidence to support an active belief in God.
Yes, there are militant thinkers out there, but I have no doubt that theist militants outnumber the atheist militants simply by virtue of the fact that there are so many more theists than atheists.
Robert Tulip wrote:
The critical attitude is good, but it can also calcify in an uncritical way into a sort of group view, for example the assumption that atheism is smart and theism is stupid. People holding this assumption will use it as a prejudice, seeing religious language as stupid and backward and scientific language as intelligent and progressive, and considering society as split between good (modern) and evil (traditional). The problem here is that such divisions are very unclear and dubious. There is a lot in traditional culture which is valid and adaptive, but modern culture has a tendency to want to sweep all tradition away. Of course this tendency is chastened by memory of the tumbrils and the terror, but revolutionary fanaticism remains beneath the surface in the condescending attitudes of moderns towards piety and ritual.
RT
Yes, there is a danger with any rising social group (and despite the lack of organization, I think atheists are certainly a rising social group), falling into group think, prejudice, and the assumption of superiority. I think atheists need to be aware of this and fight against it. The fact that atheist attitudes and thoughts are being distributed in meme-like fashion is not necessarily a bad thing. This mechanism which enables the spread of ideas and cultural phenomena can distribute good things just as well as the bad. But yes, we have to be on the watch for the calcification into group think that you speak of.
As for leaving traditional culture behind, maybe the Bible is becoming irrelevant because it is, in fact, irrelevant. Christianity has had its day and maybe it's time to move on to something else? However, to some degree I can understand your regret, Robert. Change is happening at an alarming rate but I do think it's mostly technologically driven. Think about how slow things must have been ten thousand years ago when generations would go by without any measurable change at all. I'm reading Harold Bloom's How to read and Why and he laments that our rapidly moving culture is leaving behind many great classics of literature. Beowulf, Milton, Joyce, Proust, etc.
Harold Bloom wrote:
I have acknowledged that the common reader now requires mediation to read Paradise Lost with full appreciation, and I fear that relatively few will make the attempt. This is a great sorrow, and true cultural loss. Why read so difficult and so erudite an epic poem? One could make the historical plea; Milton is as much the central Protestant poet as Dante is the central poet-prophet of Catholicism. Our culture and sensibility, even our religion, in the United States are in many subtle respects more post-Protestant than Protestant, yet hardly to be comprehended without some clear sense of the Protestant spirit. That spirit achieved its apotheosis in Paradise Lost, and an adventurous reader would be well counseled to brave the difficulties.
So it is perhaps inevitable for human beings to suffer great cultural loss as we speed towards whatever the future brings us. In fact, maybe in a hundred years books will be found only in museums.
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geo wrote:
. . . is it possible that critical thinking is being used as a way to propagate group think, only instead of furthering religious ideas it is being used to advance an atheistic or liberal agenda?
Yes, Geo, but remember that critical thinking is not thinking but a covert imposition of social values in the guise of teaching logic and science. Its aim is not to encourage thought but to stop it. Its method is indoctrination (thought reform) by government force -- ultimately to exclude from education and employment all those unamenable to critical thinking brain-washing. It's a totalitarian monstrosity. Had Galileo anachronistically been amenable to such nonsense, he would have achieved nothing.
Tom
_________________ Think critically about critical thinking.
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Frank 013 wrote:
Quote:
Critical thinking: Critical thinking is the use of those cognitive skills or strategies that increase the probability of a desirable outcome. It is used to describe thinking that is purposeful, reasoned and goal directed - the kind of thinking involved in solving problems, formulating inferences, calculating likelihoods, and making decisions when the thinker is using skills that are thoughtful and effective for the particular context and type of thinking task. Critical thinking also involves evaluating the thinking process - the reasoning that went into the conclusion we've arrived at the kinds of factors considered in making a decision. Critical thinking is sometimes called directed thinking because it focuses on a desired outcome.
Halpern, Diane F. Thought and Knowledge: An Introduction to Critical Thinking. 1996.
The "desirable outcome" is that the victim believe in the critical thinking con. It is not true that critical thinking is "the kind of thinking involved in solving problems." Critical thinking does not solve problems. It makes problems and is itself the problem -- a substitution of social conformity for thinking. Anyone who believes that critical thinking is a problem solving technique should compare it to George Polya's How to Solve It and I hope will share their findings with me.
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Do you have any idea why critical thinking has so many definitions?
Yes. Critical thinking has so many definitions because it is an intellectual ectoplasm that can be squeezed into any shape the definer wishes.
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Because it is a process, a tool that can be used many ways, there is no one way to think critically. I do think that Geo may have hit on an important point the term critical thinking may be a buzz term for any rational, logical thinking process that repeatedly yields accurate results.
It is a tool of religious propaganda. It yields "accurate results" when the victim comes to believe in critical thinking itself.
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There are of course rules and “virtues” that help a person better manage their thinking process, but those guidelines are not propaganda any more than learning the rules of algebra is propaganda.
The critical thinker when confronted with an algebra problem will convert it into a social activity, seek help from friends or cheat by copying the work of the person sitting next to him. Since independent thought is anathema in critical thinking, the critical thinker will definitely not work on the problem independently.
Tom
_________________ Think critically about critical thinking.
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Thomas, you can't be serious about everything you're saying. I've never heard such ridiculously ignorant and incorrect statements about critical thinking in my entire life. Even the most devote of Bible-thumpers seems to have a better understanding and appreciation for critical thinking. Literally every sentence you type is filled with inaccuracies and blatant misrepresentations. I'm literally shocked and befuddled at the stuff you're saying.
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TH: "Yes, Geo, but remember that critical thinking is not thinking but a covert imposition of social values in the guise of teaching logic and science."
I didn't realize I was a zombie when I discovered my methods of thought were aptly named critical. Who am I supposed to be teaching logic and science to? What is this covert imposition I'm a part of? You'll have to teach me all of this conspiracy Thomas, it's intriguing!! Here, I thought I was simply thinking in a structured fashion! Silly me. I should read more hole in the wall blogs with fringe perspectives.
TH: "Critical thinking does not solve problems."
What evidence do you have to support this claim?
TH: "It is a tool of religious propaganda. It yields "accurate results" when the victim comes to believe in critical thinking itself."
Evidence here as well please.
TH: "The critical thinker when confronted with an algebra problem will convert it into a social activity, seek help from friends or cheat by copying the work of the person sitting next to him."
You have evidence here? The majority of your rantings are either unsupported, or supported by some variant googlism that you think has authority.
Frank: "That which can be asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence."
Your assumptions are dismissed.
TH: "Oh, Interbane, I would rather stand on a street corner and rant and rave and thump a bible than use derogatory imagery to describe an opponent."
We know Thomas, we know. You missed the point, however. The point is, the person ranting and raving doesn't see his image as derogatory. He's convinced he's correct and continues to rant and rave.
TH: "Would you care to examine your assumption that an examination of assumptions is a good thing?"
Would you care to explain why you think the examination of assumptions is properly termed an assumption? There is a point where all our thinking must rest on a faith of some type, and I'm not referring to religious faith. I have faith in reason. I wouldn't say that this is one of what you call "The seven virtues of critical thinking", since I'm not zealotously shoehorning critical thinking into a definition. I only disclaim this since faith in reason was listed in geo's initial post.
Here is a snippet from wikipedia which most closely resembles my own thoughts on critical thinking:
Thinking is often casual or routine, whereas critical thinking deliberately evaluates the quality of thinking. In a seminal study on critical thinking and education in 1941, Edward Glaser writes that the ability to think critically involves three things
1) An attitude of being disposed to consider in a thoughtful way the problems and subjects that come within the range of one's experiences, 2) Knowledge of the methods of logical inquiry and reasoning, 3) Some skill in applying those methods.
As you can see, there is not much more to it than to say it as johnson said, critical thinking equals thinking critically. Your unjustified dismissal of the reversal of terms ignores the fact that the reversal alters the definition due to context and for that reason isn't circular. The quote from wikipedia matches my definition extremely well. I'm sure it can be expanded greatly to incorporate more rigidity, but that isn't necessary for it to continue to be critical thinking. For example, I personally would stress the need for intellectual honesty, which isn't listed above.
I haven't considered that there is an underground movement to subvert people like myself. Will they suck me into their movement with "atheist books" and "new age philosophy" and warp my understanding of critical thinking so that they may control me? Since my understanding of thinking critically isn't at that point, I hope you swallow your pride and label me innocent.
TH: "I am unable to locate your "good example of critical thinking" perhaps because of the BookTalk bug. Would you please post it here and indicate how your thinking exemplifies the Seven Virtues of Critical Thinking?"
No. I won't abide by your definition. I understand what thinking critically is. I will repost it here for you however. It seems to me your problem with critical thinking is that is more than just casual thinking. Or perhaps the problem is that there is the faith in reason, which is the opposite of what you value. You have faith in Faith, is that correct?
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Yes, Geo, but remember that critical thinking is not thinking but a covert imposition of social values in the guise of teaching logic and science. Its aim is not to encourage thought but to stop it. Its method is indoctrination (thought reform) by government force -- ultimately to exclude from education and employment all those unamenable to critical thinking brain-washing. It's a totalitarian monstrosity. Had Galileo anachronistically been amenable to such nonsense, he would have achieved nothing.
Extra wrong with incredible No on top.
Quote:
...a substitution of social conformity for thinking.
Wrong.
no..... wait, actually yes. This exactly. I was just so used to you being completely wrong about this.
This sounds like a bad thing to you?
Quote:
The critical thinker when confronted with an algebra problem will convert it into a social activity, seek help from friends or cheat by copying the work of the person sitting next to him. Since independent thought is anathema in critical thinking, the critical thinker will definitely not work on the problem independently.
Whoops! slipped into wrong again. I hope you get those rascally critical thinkers Yosemite Tom.
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Interbane wrote:
Here is a snippet from wikipedia which most closely resembles my own thoughts on critical thinking:
Thinking is often casual or routine, whereas critical thinking deliberately evaluates the quality of thinking. In a seminal study on critical thinking and education in 1941, Edward Glaser writes that the ability to think critically involves three things
1) An attitude of being disposed to consider in a thoughtful way the problems and subjects that come within the range of one's experiences, 2) Knowledge of the methods of logical inquiry and reasoning, 3) Some skill in applying those methods.
As you can see, there is not much more to it than to say it as johnson said, critical thinking equals thinking critically. Your unjustified dismissal of the reversal of terms ignores the fact that the reversal alters the definition due to context and for that reason isn't circular. The quote from wikipedia matches my definition extremely well. I'm sure it can be expanded greatly to incorporate more rigidity, but that isn't necessary for it to continue to be critical thinking. For example, I personally would stress the need for intellectual honesty, which isn't listed above.
That's very interesting. I like the simplicity of Glaser's definition. Thanks Interbane.
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Chris OConnor wrote:
Thomas, you can't be serious about everything you're saying. I've never heard such ridiculously ignorant and incorrect statements about critical thinking in my entire life. Even the most devote of Bible-thumpers seems to have a better understanding and appreciation for critical thinking. Literally every sentence you type is filled with inaccuracies and blatant misrepresentations. I'm literally shocked and befuddled at the stuff you're saying.
Would you be more specific? If I have made an incorrect statement about critical thinking, I'd like to correct it.
I am not shocked by critical thinking but I was surprised. I do not keep up with academic trends, had no idea of what was happening, and never would have looked at it were it not for your ad:
F FREETHOUGHT A ATHEIST C CRITICAL T THINKING S SCIENCE
I suspect (but haven't proved) that critical thinking is an adaptation of General Semantics to political correctness ends.
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I never thought I would live to see the day where someone argues against critical thinking.
The ladies at BookTalk claim that marriage prolongs a man's life.
Tom
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Critical thinking is an approach to gathering data and making inferences about the world. It draws heavily on ideas from the Scientific revolution and advocates an approach of data acquisition and rational assessment. When applying critical thinking the goal is to collect as much relevant data as possible, and then asses that data for accuracy, and finally use the data to arrive at the most justified conclusions possible. Critical thinking is an on going process and even ideas that one feels are well supported need to be occasionally reevaluated to see if new information might change ones mind.
Critical thinking uses many aspects of formal logic and informal logic. It also focuses on discovering bias, propaganda , delusion and deception both in the sources of ones information and ones own views and approaches to reasoning problems out.
A radical feminist typically has one or more of the following characteristics:
* insistence on censorship of opposing speakers, writers, or presentations, often done on the eve of an event without consideration of the disruption.[Citation Needed] * expression of extreme offense at modest expressions of disagreement.[Citation Needed] * seething hatred for anti-feminist personalities, such as Ann Coulter.[Citation Needed] * lack of a sense of humor.[Citation Needed] * contempt for women who serve in traditional family roles, such as housewives.[Citation Needed] * lack of recognition of achievements, such as inventions, made possible by traditional family structures.[Citation Needed] * belief that single mothers are capable of raising well-adjusted children without the influence of a stable father figure.[Citation Needed] * insistence that the lifestyle, attitudes and customs of women should mirror exactly those of men.[Citation Needed] * Regarding all men as potential rapists.[1] * rarely or never defers to the majority, or concedes defeat.[2] * seeks to alter language to reinforce feminist ideology.
and other authoritative, non-biased, well cited articles.
even THEY got this right. Am i seeing that you are more off your rocker than the combined efforts of the good people at conservapedia?
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Johnson, there appears to be a typo in the brief Conservapedia entry on critical thinking: "asses" should probably be "assays". If the article were itself an example of careful thinking, why wasn't this error caught?
This conservative definition of critical thinking differs from those of liberals, which doesn't matter because no objective definition is possible of this nebulous, politicized subject.
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