Online reading group and book discussion forum
  HOME FORUMS BLOGS BOOKS LINKS GAMES DONATE ADVERTISE CONTACT  
View unanswered posts | View active topics It is currently Fri Sep 03, 2010 4:06 am


Upcoming Chats 
Casual Chat every Sunday 11:00 am Eastern • Casual Chat every Thursday at 9:00 pm Eastern




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 2 posts ] 
We're all really Cave Men, aren't we? 
Author Message
Years of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membership
Doctorate

Bronze Contributor

Joined: Oct 2002
Posts: 554
Location: Saint Louis
Thanks: 0
Thanked: 0 time in 0 post
Gender: Male

Thanks
Post We're all really Cave Men, aren't we?
Ridley expounds both sides of the EEA ("environment of evolutionary adaptedness") question. It seems to me thinking people who consider the issue have to agree with one side or the other. Was there a time in the past when our biological adapting went on, then we stopped evolving, such that we are adapted to "then" and not to "now"? Or is the biological evolution of human beings something that goes on continously, so our adaptedness may be a couple of millenia behind, but is ever catching up, and is nowhere near the hundreds of thousands of years behind that Symons asserts?

PRO:
Quote:
. . .for more than a million years people lived in a way that couldn't have changed much. They inhabited grasslands and woodland savannas, first in Africa, later in Eurasia, and eventually in Australasia and the Americas. They hunted animals for food, gathered fruits and seeds, and were highly social within each tribe but hostile toward members of other tribes. Don Symons refers to this combination of time and place as the "environment of evolutionary adaptedness," or EEA, and he believes it is central to human psychology. People cannot be adapted to the present or the future; they can only be adapted to the past. But he readily admits that it is hard to be precise about exactly what lives people lived in the EEA. They probably lived in small bands; they were perhaps nomadic; they ate both meat and vegetable matter; they presumably shared the features that are universal among modern humans of all cultures: a pair bond as an institution in which to rear children, romantic love, jealousy and sexually induced male-male violence, a female preference for men of high status, a male preference for young females, warfare between bands, and so on. There was almost certainly a sexual division of labor between hunting men and gathering women, something unique to people and a few birds of prey. To this day, among the Ache people of Paraguay, men specialize in acquiring those foods that a woman encumbered with a baby could not manage to--meat and honey, for example.

Kim Hill, at the University of New Mexico, argues that there was no consistent EEA, but he nonetheless agrees that there were universal features of human life that are not present today but that have hangover effects. Everybody knew or had heard of nearly all the people they were likely to meet in their lives: There were no strangers, a fact that had enormous importance for the history of trade and crime prevention, among other things. The lack of anonymity meant that charlatans and tricksters could rarely get away with their deceptions for long.

CON:
Quote:
Another group of biologists at Michigan rejects these EEA arguments altogether with two arguments. First, the most critical feature of the EEA is still with us, It is other people. Our brains grew so big not to make tools but to psychologize one another. The lesson of socioecology is that our mating system is determined not by ecology but by other people-by members of the same gender and by members of the other gender. It is the need to outwit and dupe and help and teach one another that drove us to be ever more intelligent.
Second, we were designed above all else to be adaptable. We were designed to have all sorts of alternative strategies to achieve our ends. Even today, existing hunter-gatherer societies show enormous ecological and social variation, and they are probably an unrepresentative sample because they mostly occupy deserts and forests, which were not mankind's primary habitat. Even in the time of Homo erectus, let alone more modern people, there may have been specialized fishing, shore-dwelling, hunting, or plant-gathering cultures. Some of these may well have afforded opportunities for wealth accumulation and polygamy. In recent memory there was a preagricultural culture among the salmon-fishing Indians of the Pacific Northwest of America that was highly polygamous, If the local hunter-gathering economy favored it, men were capable of being polygamous and women were capable of joining harems over the protests of the preceding co-wives. If not, then men were capable of being good fathers and women jealous monopolizers. In other words, mankind has many potential mating systems, one for each circumstance.


Science is neither a philosophy nor a belief system. It is a combination of mental operations that has become increasingly the habit of educated peoples, a culture of illuminations hit upon by a fortunate turn of history that yielded the most effective way of learning about the real world ever conceived. E.O.Wilson

Edited by: Jeremy1952 at: 11/16/03 6:39 pm


Sun Nov 16, 2003 6:38 pm
Profile E-mail WWW
Years of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membership
Intern


Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 199
Thanks: 0
Thanked: 0 time in 0 post
Gender: None specified

Thanks
Post Re: We're all really Cave Men, aren't we?
Great Post!

Quote:
People cannot be adapted to the present or the future; they can only be adapted to the past.
Hmm! Most animals are adapted to the present.

An alternative view might be that (ignoring cultural evolution) we would continue to evolve until any innate, ancestral, behavioural attributes that would have evolved when we lived in the EEA, which might cause individual people not to pass on their genes have disappeared. At least, that is, up until the point where the trait becomes rare enough not to be considered part of the normal human condition. At this point - once the optimal level had been reached - the selective pressure would maintain it at that level, and adaptive evolution would be "complete" until there was some change in the environment which might set up a new selective pressure to set it off again. If this view is the correct one, evolution will stop, once we are properly adapted to the world we would then be living in. Against this view is the argument that cultural evolution moves so quickly that the environment is constantly changing and selective pressures would never be stable for a long enough period to provide a consistent selective pressure. If this view is the correct one the cultural evolutionary "hare" is so much faster than the Darwinian evolutionary "tortoise" that the tortoise will never catch the hare.

I hope this makes sense; these are complex issues.

I think the human animal is definitely cosmopolitan rather than specialist. By this I mean that we are very adaptable and I don't think it could be argued that we are naturally polygamous or naturally monogamous, because different societies might well favour different cultural arrangements. What could never arise would be a society where adult inter-sex bonding was absent.

If we are to answer the question you set, I think that we have to define what is innate and what is culturally defined behaviour. I have heard some evolutionary psychologists and philosophers make (cringe making) claims about how Darwinian adaptive change might alter phenomena that, I think, are obviously cultural in origin. I think that it should be possible to define - at least provisionally - what the differences between evolved and cultural phenomena are.

Now, we certainly have an evolved capacity for rational thought, but (and this is a massively important "but") this is a general-purpose capacity. We evolved this trait to assess and decide between different options that are presented to our senses and which evoke a subjective or emotional response. (I am saying here, that we simply won't deal with any sensory phenomenon that doesn't evoke a subjective or emotional response. This is another way of saying that we won't deal with something if it doesn't interest us. There is an important caveat to the last sentence but this is getting complicated enough)

If we take our evolved capacity for rational thought out of the equation, we are left with emotions and subjective responses to the world. Now, I argue that this is where we should be looking for innate behavioural attributes. We react emotionally, or with a positive or negative subjective response, to certain elements in our environment. We react positively to a smile; we enjoy looking at evocative images; we like certain things in our environment and dislike others. If you think about it these are the things that make us happy or sad and are the basis for our value judgements and, I venture to say, provide all human motivation.

These elements can be very specific. And, sometimes, it is intriguingly difficult to understand why we might certain things evocative. Why do some people find steam trains evocative? Or a herd of wild, white stallions pounding through the surf? (I've proposed answers to some of these questions but there isn't space here)

My point is that we might find different cultural solutions, which satisfy our evolved basic urges. Monogamy or polygamy to satisfy our basic sexual urges or train spotting to indulge our passion for steam trains. (I wonder if there were chariot-spotters in ancient Rome - I'll bet there were.) Don't look for evolved capacity for things like monogamy, because you won't find it. Monogamy and polygamy happen in humans because we have an evolved capacity for sexual pair bonds and we will come up with different solutions to satisfy the need for pair bonds using our capacity for rational thought. (Most other animals just wouldn't have thought of choosing between the possible options - they just have the evolved response - not the enhanced capacity for rational thought that humans have.)



Tue Nov 18, 2003 7:19 pm
Profile
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 2 posts ] 


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 0 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:


Recent Blogging 

Great Year as Demiurge

The ancient philosopher Plato held that God is revealed locally through a Demiurge, an artisan-like figure responsible for the fashioning and maintenance of the physical universe.… more

Posted: 1 day ago by robert tulip

Welcome.

Have you ever considered one day sitting down and tracing your family history? Don't get me wrong it takes more than one day but you get my drift I hope.  Today with the… mor e

Posted: 4 days ago by star burst

I've got a new tag

It is no measure of health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society - Krishnamurti

Posted: 7 days ago by Penelope

The Origins of Atomic Theory and our Modern View of Particle Physics

By Jim Watters

PowerPoint presentation in PDF format download here (7.69 MB).

Posted: 9 days ago by jim watters

New poll widget available for your blog

You'll now notice a brand new widget available for your personal blog called the "Poll Widget." You can add polls to your sidebar simply by dragging and dropping the… more

Posted: 11 days ago by Chris OConnor

OK - Getting Serious!

A tribute to our Canadian friends from an English Woman:_

An Australian Definition of a Canadian   In case anyone asks you who a Canadian is . . .     … more

Posted: 16 days ago by Penelope

How to evaluate the following basic calculus iterated integral

How to evaluate the following basic calculus iterated integral:

Posted: 17 days ago by jim watters

A lovely Wedding

Last weekend we went to the wedding of the daughter of our old friends.  We can remember her being born:-

 

Posted: 17 days ago by Penelope

Fresh from the garden

So our garden is beginning to produce an abundance of tomatoes zucchini and even some green peppers. The cantaloupes are getting bigger and one is starting to turn beige. I don… more

Posted: 17 days ago by froglipz

Hello world!

Welcome to BookTalk.org Blogs. This is your first post. Edit or delete it, then start blogging!

Click "edit" to get into your dashboard where you can select a theme a… mor e

Posted: 18 days ago by star burst

Some things to know about how to order pizza or fast food

In America we spend far more of our time ordering food than making it it seems, and yet, when it comes to either phone ordering OR counter ordering we don't seem to have a clu… more

Posted: 18 days ago by froglipz

Progress in Evolution

From http://www.bautforum.com/showt hread.php/106667-Evolution-cla rifications?p=1777341#post1777 341 Part of the debate here turns on the question of whether evolution displays prog… more

Posted: 19 days ago by robert tulip

University and Lady Gaga

Oh, University. Much like everything else in my life, if I don't have it, I want it. I'm currently waiting to get back to university and just sitting here in boring Orang… more

Posted: 19 days ago by genocide

Churrasco

Everyone likes a good steak but many don't know about Churrasco, a type of cooked steak from Argentina.

This is definitely my favorite steak. I know a lot of people tha… more

Posted: 19 days ago by president camacho

Death Alley By Jeff Smith

The Butterfield Stage line between Warner’s Ranch and Oak Grove was a narrow trail, dusty in summer, soggy in winter, rutted the year round. On its weekly treks, the stage always… more

Posted: 19 days ago by star burst

Caterpillars

I went out into my garden today to find that something had eaten all of my parsley. It turns out I have about 50 Black Swallowtail caterpillars munching away at my garden.

I was… more

Posted: 20 days ago by president camacho

History

Since starting with Herodotus, I've read The Will of Zeus by Stringfellow Barr, as well as Thucydides' The Peloponnesian War. I've also read the Rise and Fall of Ath… more

Posted: 20 days ago by president camacho

Rigor Mortis and other Post Mortem Changes

Once the heart stops beating, blood collects in the most dependent parts of the body (livor mortis), the body stiffens (rigor mortis), and the body begins to cool (alg… more

Posted: 20 days ago by star burst

The Cryptid Zoo: Werewolves in Cryptozoology

In folklore, werewolves are people who sometimes shapeshift into wolves. Because werewolves are usually thought to be part of the supernatural, they are seldom investigated by pe… more

Posted: 20 days ago by star burst

George Washington Tomb

George Washington Tomb

George and Martha Washington are buried on the grounds of Mount Vernon in a gated tomb, which can be seen by visitors.

http://www.visitingdc.c&hel lip; more

Posted: 22 days ago by star burst



BookTalk.org Chat Room 
Enter the BookTalk.org Chat Room

Enter our Chat [0]

Casual Chats

Every Thursday
9:00 pm Eastern

Every Sunday
11:00 am Eastern



Booktalk.org Staff 
Administrators
Chris OConnor
MidnightCoder
Moderators
Frank 013
Interbane
Saffron
Suzanne

BookTalk.org Needs Support 
We need your support! Please consider making a donation today. See who supports us.
Make a donation
RECENT DONATIONS:
Thanks Stahrwe!
• stahrwe - $50 August
• stahrwe - $50 July
• stahrwe - $50 May


Kindle Wireless Reading Device

If you enjoy business bestsellers and would like to expand your business knowledge check out the quality book summaries offered by the world's leading book summary company.

F.A.C.T.S. 
FACTS: Freethought - Atheism - Critical Thinking - Science


Show us where you live! 
BookTalk.org Member Map




BookTalk.org is a free book discussion group or online reading group or book club. We read and talk about both fiction and non-fiction books as a group. We host live author chats where booktalk members can interact with and interview authors. We give away free books to our members in book giveaway contests. Our booktalks are open to everybody who enjoys talking about books. Our book forums include book reviews, author interviews and book resources for readers and book lovers. Discussing books is our passion. We're a literature forum, or reading forum. Register a free book club account today! Suggest nonfiction and fiction books. Authors and publishers are welcome to advertise their books or ask for an author chat or author interview.


Navigation 
MAIN NAVIGATION

HOMEFORUMSABOUTBOOKSTRANSCRIPTSOLD FORUMSADVERTISELINKSBLOGSFAQDONATETERMS OF USEPRIVACY POLICY

BOOK FORUMS FOR ALL BOOKS WE HAVE DISCUSSED
The Evolution of God by Robert WrightThe Tin Drum by Gunter GrassGood Omens by Neil GaimanPredictably Irrational by Dan ArielyThe Wind-Up Bird Chronicle: A Novel by Haruki MurakamiPredictably Irrational, Revised and Expanded Edition: The Hidden Forces That Shape Our Decisions by Dan ArielyALONE: Orphaned on the Ocean by Richard Logan & Tere Duperrault FassbenderDon Quixote by Miguel De CervantesMusicophilia: Tales of Music and the Brain by Oliver SacksDiary of a Madman and Other Stories by Nikolai GogolThe Passion of the Western Mind by Richard TarnasThe Left Hand of Darkness by Ursula K. Le GuinThe Genius of the Beast: A Radical Re-Vision of Capitalism - by Howard BloomAlice's Adventures in Wonderland by Lewis Carroll Empire of Illusion by Chris HedgesThe Sound and the Fury by William Faulkner The Extended Phenotype by Richard DawkinsSmoke and Mirrors: Short Fictions and Illusions by Neil GaimanThe Selfish Gene by Richard DawkinsWhen Good Thinking Goes Bad by Todd C. RinioloHouse of Leaves by Mark Z. DanielewskiAmerican Gods: A Novel by Neil GaimanPrimates and Philosophers: How Morality Evolved by Frans de WaalThe Enormous Room by E.E. CummingsThe Picture of Dorian Gray by Oscar WildeGod Is Not Great: How Religion Poisons Everything by Christopher HitchensThe Name of the Rose by Umberto Eco Dreams From My Father by Barack Obama Paradise Lost by John Milton Bad Money: Reckless Finance, Failed Politics, and the Global Crisis of American Capitalism by Kevin PhillipsThe Secret Garden by Frances Hodgson BurnettGodless: How an Evangelical Preacher Became One of America's Leading Atheists by Dan BarkerThe Things They Carried by Tim O'BrienThe Limits of Power: The End of American ExceptionalismLolitaOrlando by Virginia Woolf On Being Certain by Robert A. Burton50 reasons people give for believing in a god by Guy P. HarrisonWalden: Or, Life in the Woods by Henry David ThoreauExile and the Kingdom by Albert CamusOur Inner Ape: A Leading Primatologist Explains Why We Are Who We Are by Frans de WaalYour Inner Fish: A Journey into the 3.5-Billion-Year-History of the Human Body by Neil ShubinNo Country for Old Men by Cormac McCarthyThe Age of American Unreason by Susan JacobyTen Theories of Human Nature by Leslie Stevenson & David HabermanHeart of Darkness by Joseph ConradThe Stuff of Thought: Language as a Window Into Human Nature by Stephen PinkerA Thousand Splendid Suns by Khaled HosseiniThe Lucifer Effect: Understanding How Good People Turn Evil by Philip ZimbardoResponsibility and Judgment by Hannah ArendtInterventions by Noam ChomskyGodless in America by George A. RickerReligious Expression and the American Constitution by Franklyn S. HaimanDeep Economy: The Wealth of Communities and the Durable Future by Phil McKibbenThe God Delusion by Richard DawkinsThe Third Chimpanzee: The Evolution and Future of the Human Animal by Jared DiamondThe Woman in the Dunes by Abe KoboEvolution vs. Creationism: An Introduction by Eugenie C. ScottThe Omnivore's Dilemma: A Natural History of Four Meals by Michael PollanI, Claudius : From the Autobiography of Tiberius Claudius, Born 10 B.C., Murdered and Deified A.D. 54 by Robert GravesBreaking The Spell: Religion as a Natural Phenomenon by Daniel C. DennettA Peace to End All Peace: The Fall of the Ottoman Empire and the Creation of the Modern Middle East Peace by David FromkinThe Time Traveler's Wife by Audrey NiffeneggerThe End of Faith: Religion, Terror, and the Future of Reason by Sam HarrisEnder's Game by Orson Scott CardThe Curious Incident of the Dog in the Night-Time by Mark HaddonValue and Virtue in a Godless Universe by Erik J. WielenbergThe March by E. L DoctorowThe Ethical Brain by Michael GazzanigaFreethinkers: A History of American Secularism by Susan JacobyCollapse: How Societies Choose to Fail or Succeed by Jared DiamondThe Battle for God by Karen ArmstrongThe Future of Life by Edward O. WilsonWhat is Good? The Search for the Best Way to Live by A. C. GraylingCivilization and Its Enemies: The Next Stage of History by Lee HarrisPale Blue Dot: A Vision of the Human Future in Space by Carl SaganHow We Believe: Science, Skepticism, and the Search for God by Michael ShermerLooking for Spinoza: Joy, Sorrow, and the Feeling Brain by Antonio DamasioLies and the Lying Liars Who Tell Them: A Fair and Balanced Look at the Right by Al FrankenThe Red Queen: Sex and the Evolution of Human Nature by Matt RidleyThe Blank Slate: The Modern Denial of Human Nature by Stephen PinkerUnweaving the Rainbow: Science, Delusion and the Appetite for Wonder by Richard DawkinsAtheism: A Reader edited by S.T. JoshiGlobal Brain: The Evolution of Mass Mind From the Big Bang To the 21st Century by Howard BloomThe Lucifer Principle: A Scientific Expedition into the Forces of Nature by Howard BloomGuns, Germs and Steel: The Fates of Human Societies by Jared DiamondThe Demon-Haunted World: Science as a Candle in the Dark by Carl SaganBury My Heart at Wounded Knee: An Indian History of the American West by Dee BrownFuture Shock by Alvin Toffler

OTHER PAGES WORTH EXPLORING
Baloney Detection KitBanned Book ListOur Amazon.com SalesMassimo Pigliucci Rationally SpeakingOnline Reading GroupTop 10 Atheism BooksFACTS Book SelectionsAdvertise on BookTalk.org

Copyright © BookTalk.org 2002-2010. All rights reserved.
Website developed by MidnightCoder.ca
Display Pagerank