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Was the New Testament Influenced by Pagan Religions/Jesus has nothing to do with Osiris,Isis, etc
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_________________ “I think one of [James Hoffmeier’s] most important points is that we have unrealistic expectations for what archaeology can offer us as far as ‘proving’ Exodus: ‘After all, what evidence, short of an inscription in a Proto-Canaanite script stating “bricks made by Hebrew slaves” would be considered proof that the Israelites were in Egypt. Archaeology’s ability … is quite limited.’” Jeff Lambert, Editorial Associate, Biblical Archaeological Review. via email January 26, 2010 8:20:58 AM. [email receipiant redacted for privacy reasons. See Thread-The Bible's Buried Secrets for full text.] Last edited by stahrwe on Mon Feb 21, 2011 11:02 am, edited 1 time in total. |
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| Mon Feb 21, 2011 11:01 am |
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He makes a good case that Judaism supplies most of what is needed to understand the emergence of Christianity. As for what influenced Judaism, I believe there is more extensive evolution there than many are willing to acknowledge, from polytheism to monolatry to monotheism (and no, Robert Wright isn't the one who made this up). It might not have been mystery cults, technically, that Judaism grew out from, but rather was the polytheistic religions of the Middle East. Christianity is then a further evolution from Judaism, as I think you would agree. At this point (and before this point), many of you want to say that influences don't come into play, that what we have is an original, divine revelation. That is your belief. I think that Nash does well arguing against the mystery cults as sources of specific borrowings. Doesn't he slight, though, what some believe is a more likely influence on the Christian doctrine of death and resurrection, Greek philosophical paganism? That actually wasn't his subject here, but it's an area that should be considered more fully.
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| Mon Feb 21, 2011 2:45 pm |
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You will no doubt be unhappy that I mention Wright in a negative context but the fact that you bring him up leaves me little choice. Wright's efforts to explain monotheisms emergence from polytheism and then the deal with Christianity in his book TEoG is so superficial and filled with erroneous statements about the text of the Bible let alone its meaning that he is, in my opinion, impeached as an authority by his own work.
You mention Greek philosophical paganism so I will address that in my next post. _________________ “I think one of [James Hoffmeier’s] most important points is that we have unrealistic expectations for what archaeology can offer us as far as ‘proving’ Exodus: ‘After all, what evidence, short of an inscription in a Proto-Canaanite script stating “bricks made by Hebrew slaves” would be considered proof that the Israelites were in Egypt. Archaeology’s ability … is quite limited.’” Jeff Lambert, Editorial Associate, Biblical Archaeological Review. via email January 26, 2010 8:20:58 AM. [email receipiant redacted for privacy reasons. See Thread-The Bible's Buried Secrets for full text.] Last edited by stahrwe on Thu Feb 24, 2011 9:40 am, edited 1 time in total. |
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| Mon Feb 21, 2011 3:33 pm |
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I remember that every problem you had was a matter of interpretation and didn't hold any water. You were fishing for problems and the only problems you found were superficial and not really problems at all. You're badmouthing a good author for no reason. |
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| Mon Feb 21, 2011 3:54 pm |
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Your memory is flawed; Wright deliverably avaoided the story of the call of Abram from Ur. Its ommission from a book about the emergence of monotheism from atheism is bad enough but the call of Abram is one of THE pivotal moments in ths Bible. There is no interpreation possible associated with the story and your attempt to cast it as such is a weak attempt at rehabilitation of Wright at best and at worst ...
In addition, Wright made a specific statement about the Gospel of Mark which was directly contracitcted by a verse in Mark, and other claims about things Jesus either did or did not say which were also contracticted by the Bible. It was fairly clear that Wright knew little about the Bible. I am not badmouthing anyone, only stating facts. In our question session for Wright to resond to I specifically asked him about the Abraham ommission. Even DWill agreed that WRight punted the question. _________________ “I think one of [James Hoffmeier’s] most important points is that we have unrealistic expectations for what archaeology can offer us as far as ‘proving’ Exodus: ‘After all, what evidence, short of an inscription in a Proto-Canaanite script stating “bricks made by Hebrew slaves” would be considered proof that the Israelites were in Egypt. Archaeology’s ability … is quite limited.’” Jeff Lambert, Editorial Associate, Biblical Archaeological Review. via email January 26, 2010 8:20:58 AM. [email receipiant redacted for privacy reasons. See Thread-The Bible's Buried Secrets for full text.] Last edited by stahrwe on Thu Feb 24, 2011 9:41 am, edited 1 time in total. |
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| Mon Feb 21, 2011 6:12 pm |
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A pivotal point in the bible does not equate to a 'real' event in human history. It is indeed a matter of interpretation. The problem is that you can't see the option I'm talking about. Who are you to say that the call of Abram isn't just a story in a book, meanwhile the true reasons for the emergence of monotheism had already happened by the time the story was created? |
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| Mon Feb 21, 2011 6:34 pm |
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Whether it was a real event or not, it was recorded in the OT and was and is one of the seminal moments in the founding of Israel as God's (that's possessive not plural) chosen people. For a book purported to be about the emergence of monotheism (especially with respect to Judaism and ultimately Christianity) from polytheism to ignore the story is inexplicable unless it was inconvenient to the narrative to address it. I can well understand that as the call dead ends the premise of the book so I would have ignored it too had I been Wright. As for the claim that monotheism was already a fact by the time the story was written that is a game of twister. The major question being Why? If monotheism had been accepted why go back and fill in not only a story, but one which is ad odds with Wright's imagination? Alice, please pass the cake. _________________ “I think one of [James Hoffmeier’s] most important points is that we have unrealistic expectations for what archaeology can offer us as far as ‘proving’ Exodus: ‘After all, what evidence, short of an inscription in a Proto-Canaanite script stating “bricks made by Hebrew slaves” would be considered proof that the Israelites were in Egypt. Archaeology’s ability … is quite limited.’” Jeff Lambert, Editorial Associate, Biblical Archaeological Review. via email January 26, 2010 8:20:58 AM. [email receipiant redacted for privacy reasons. See Thread-The Bible's Buried Secrets for full text.] |
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| Mon Feb 21, 2011 9:17 pm |
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Well, let's examine this with a good dose of reason. What's the alternative to this being a real event? Was it just made up? Was it fabricated much later? Well, that's possible - but personally I'm going to have to see some pretty amazing evidence to support that. But that's a thread which runs through this over and over. I've really enjoyed the huge quantity of claims made regarding the bible, christ and the histories on this forum. But they all seem to follow the same template, which goes like this: 1. Take the bible. 2. Take another old text. 3. Compare the two. 4. Find a pattern. 5. Conclude that the one is derived from the other. And that's fine, there's absolutely nothing wrong with that. But it stops there. In real research, real scholarship, we'd then look for evidence to support the link - and if the link exists, we should find that evidence. So if we see a link between mithraism and christianity, we should see documents and histories showing the transition; old documents which don't have the mithraic elements, newer ones with only some and then newer ones still with all the elements in place. It's simply not enough just to find the pattern. The pattern has to be supported by hard evidence. If anyone wants to claim that parts of the bible are fabricated, that's fine - but any reasonable person will want to see real evidence that that is the case before accepting it. And if we look but find no evidence, the consequence should be to discard the theory as unsupported. |
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| The following user would like to thank Squelch for this post: Dawn |
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| Tue Feb 22, 2011 4:12 am |
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I don't know, Squelch, if I see your template so much at work in discussions of whether biblical events are to be taken as historical. There isn't often another text for comparison, anyway, I think. We have to use other criteria, and these sometimes allow us to make reasonable assumptions against the events being historical. Can we prove that something else happened in place of what is said to have happened? No, but that's not the point, is it?
Some background about stahrwe's complaint about Robert Wright. The call of Abram marked the arrival of monotheism to the Jews. Wright tries to show that monotheism was much later in arriving within Judaism. He doesn't, therefore, consider the event to be historical. Stahrwe objects that he can't ignore it whether it happened or not, but as a materialist, of course Wright would ignore it if it didn't happen. Stahrwe thinks, I believe, that Wright has an obligation to do justice to Judeo-Christian belief, but he wrote the book for other purposes, so I don't think he's doing anything amiss. (Now I'm sure to hear from stahrwe about how I've misinterpreted him.) Regarding an event such as the Exodus, what kind of evidence about it would one need to reasonably doubt that the Bible's cracking good story is historical? On first principles, I can disbelieve the plagues that God sent on Egypt. I can also use native skepticism toward the huge numbers of people said to have left Egypt. There also isn't archaeological evidence of such a massive disruption to Egyptian society, nor of a 40-year sojourn by such a massive crowd in other lands after leaving Egypt. There is evidence that the Israelites were living among the Canaanites all along. |
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| Tue Feb 22, 2011 1:47 pm |
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The difference between your sentence I quoted above and the rest of your post is that, in this sentence in particular, no ontologically positive claim is made by the denier. The rest of your post discusses the ontologically positive claim that there is a "link between Mithraism and Christianity". I agree with you that such a claim should come with supporting evidence. I believe that parts of the bible are fabricated. I am a reasonable person. I don't need to see evidence that that is the case. The easiest way to put it isn't that "I accept the idea as false", but that "the idea can be ignored". Unless there is corroborating evidence, there is no reason to consider it. That is simply all there is to it. Some parts of the bible have corroborating evidence, and some don't. Each constituent claim within the bible must be analyzed by that rubric. If there is evidence that Pontius Pilate was a real person, that doesn't "diffuse truthfulness" through the rest of the bible. If I were then to turn this belief into a claim, such as that "The fabrication took place during this period and stole elements from this prior religion," then I would suddenly be making an ontologically positive claim. I would be unreasonable if I made this assertion but didn't appeal to evidence. |
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| The following user would like to thank Interbane for this post: DWill |
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| Tue Feb 22, 2011 2:52 pm |
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That actually isn't a bad summary of my objection to Wright's TEoG as far as it goes except that there were so many misstatements in TEoG about the Bible that it became tedious to try to cite them. With that in mind I began to wonder if Wright was even familiar with the call of Abram. While materialist Wright might be able to explain away the story if it didn't happen, I don't see the logic in ignoring it completely as the connection between a conversion from polytheism to monotheism based on the call of abram immediately comes to mind as a competing explanation to Wright's.
What first pricinples give you the right to dismiss the plagues? You start off talking about evidence and then just discount something on your own whim? Then you go on to cite 'native skepticism' also not evidence. Then you cite a lack of evidence of disruption of society. This is a classic because the lack of evidence is cited to the skeptics advantage even though the principle is that lack of evidence is not evidence of lack (poorly paraphrased but you get the idea, we have been over this point many times before). Finally, you cite evidence that the Israelites were living among the Canaanites all along. Please cite the specific evidence you have for this. Please be very specific. _________________ “I think one of [James Hoffmeier’s] most important points is that we have unrealistic expectations for what archaeology can offer us as far as ‘proving’ Exodus: ‘After all, what evidence, short of an inscription in a Proto-Canaanite script stating “bricks made by Hebrew slaves” would be considered proof that the Israelites were in Egypt. Archaeology’s ability … is quite limited.’” Jeff Lambert, Editorial Associate, Biblical Archaeological Review. via email January 26, 2010 8:20:58 AM. [email receipiant redacted for privacy reasons. See Thread-The Bible's Buried Secrets for full text.] |
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| Tue Feb 22, 2011 2:57 pm |
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If you have a competing hypothesis, show us your supporting evidence.
This is a perfect example of you refusing to accept that men would lie, while assuming nature would veer from it's course. DWill is not working on an absence of evidence. Yes, there is an absence of evidence in support of the plagues. But there is not an absence of evidence in dismissing the plagues. The evidence I'm speaking of isn't directly against the plagues. It supports a claim that is mutually exclusive to the plagues. It amounts the the same thing. First of all, we know men tell lies. When there are vastly improbable or magical events described in a book, they are almost always fiction. We also know that nature is uniform, and phenomena can be predicted with a certain amount of reliability. To say that the plagues happened as described would require that we dismiss our evidence towards the uniformity of nature, or to believe that this is one of the exceedingly rare cases where a tale of extreme improbability turns out to be true. Neither of these things prove that the plagues didn't happen. However, they still constitute evidence. As evidence against the plagues, the plagues can be dismissed. Unless you can provide evidence for the plagues? The examples above are by no means all. There is a ton of evidence which is by extension against many of the claims in the bible. The conclusions we arrive at from such evidence are in direct conflict with many claims in the bible. Such conflicting evidence depends entirely on what claim we're talking about. Depending on the claim, and your interpretation of it, there will be different counter-evidence already arrayed against it. Which is why you need to explain your claims precisely when you make them. Do you think the Nile really turned in to blood, or could it be more loosely interpreted, in that it was volcanic activity? You've already mentioned that you believe the words are literal. Which means, the river must have actually turned to blood. Against this claim, DWill is right to dismiss it. The collective evidence we have in our knowledge pool of how the world works is easily enough contrary evidence for a valid dismissal. Which means, since there is already 'evidence of absence' for these claims, we don't need to appeal to the 'absence of evidence' in support of them. There is plenty of unspoken alternative evidence. If you think I'm wrong about any of this, read my post again because you're missing something. |
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| Tue Feb 22, 2011 3:51 pm |
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The problem is that the claim, "the biblical account is correct" does have supporting evidence: the bible. You may not like it, you may not like people who read it, but it is evidence. The counter claim, "the biblical account is incorrect" has no supporting evidence as far as I can see. In real skepticism there's no room for "oh I don't like it so I'll just ignore it". If the proposition has no counter claim which falsifies it, I'm afraid we have to provisionally accept it whether or not that makes us unfcomfortable. |
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| The following user would like to thank Squelch for this post: stahrwe |
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| Tue Feb 22, 2011 4:06 pm |
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So? The fact that some men tell lies some of the time does not mean that all men lie all the time, or by extension that the man in question was lying on the occasion in question. Again, this is just an excuse for not providing real evidence that your claim is correct. |
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| The following user would like to thank Squelch for this post: stahrwe |
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| Tue Feb 22, 2011 4:10 pm |
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I already did, in the TEoG discussion. It is the call of Abram as recorded in the Book of Genesis, and before you reject that I submit that a written recored trumps Wright's imagination.
That is not what I was doing. I was pointing out that the demand for evidence to support a conclusion was then ignored.
This is total nonsense.
This is nonsense too. There is an entire area of science and mathematics designed to account for uncertainity. Even in genetics there is a degree of uncertainty which requires the use of probability in order to estimate things. In the account in Exodus the magicians in Pharoah's employ initially tried to stand against Moses but eventually failed. Whenever I see the word 'magic' or 'FSM' or 'pink unicorn' I feel like the limit of original thought has been reached in favor of falling back on other people's material.
See Exodus.
You really seem to have lost it. You are now arguing that the lack of evidence is proof something didn't happen. That is a total logical failure. Additionally, to propose that something outside your experience is impossible is neither a logical, rational, or scientific approach. I suggest that you let DWill speak for himself. You are not helping his argument. _________________ “I think one of [James Hoffmeier’s] most important points is that we have unrealistic expectations for what archaeology can offer us as far as ‘proving’ Exodus: ‘After all, what evidence, short of an inscription in a Proto-Canaanite script stating “bricks made by Hebrew slaves” would be considered proof that the Israelites were in Egypt. Archaeology’s ability … is quite limited.’” Jeff Lambert, Editorial Associate, Biblical Archaeological Review. via email January 26, 2010 8:20:58 AM. [email receipiant redacted for privacy reasons. See Thread-The Bible's Buried Secrets for full text.] |
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| Tue Feb 22, 2011 4:12 pm |
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