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Re: Was the New Testament Influenced by Pagan Religions/Jesus has nothing to do with Osiris,Isis, etc
Quote:
It seems that your only real strategy, defense against Christianity is to put up a wall and keep repairing it.
Defense against? There is nothing to defend against. Christianity has no "offensive" in the form of supporting evidence. Well, there is a great deal actually, but none of it supports the extraordinary claims. Only the mundane.
Your perspective is the problem. You see the wall if my inflexibility and don't realize that it's not a wall the I use for protection, but a filter to get rid of the garbage. It is a filter tested by thousands of brilliant minds across the world and is without equal in arriving consistently at the truth. Logic and critical thinking. If you look at my filter and instead see a wall, your beliefs are at fault. I've already said countless times that the majority of the things I've come across I'm agnostic towards. That's not a wall. You simply do not have the support that you think you do.
The prophecy is not support. Not only have you failed to establish that the bible even makes said prophecy, but even if it were verbatim and undeniable, your inability to rule out coincidence damns our stance to agnosticism. You cannot undo nor rationalize your way around it.
Appealing to the Talmud is like the boy who cried wolf. Every religion cries something different, yet each expects everyone to simply believe the story because it's a "testimony". As though a testimonial cannot be false, and would not be altered. As though the texts had zero influence on each other. Anything other than dismissal or agnosticism is invalid, there is simply no way to build a case for the Talmud being support, it fails on many levels.
No other evidence even comes to mind. It's all just a farce. You pretend to have evidence, and when we tell you that it's not evidence, you blame us for being too strict! That is an extreme lack of critical thinking, to not recognize it as what we're using.
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Re: Was the New Testament Influenced by Pagan Religions/Jesus has nothing to do with Osiris,Isis, etc
Interbane wrote:
Quote:
It seems that your only real strategy, defense against Christianity is to put up a wall and keep repairing it.
I ask you again the following questions:
Who is 'you'?; Who are 'we'? What evidence would 'we' accept? What are 'your' reasons for rejecting the Bible? Please be specific. The attempt to dismiss it on the basis of prejudice is not valid. Other works have prejudices within them and are not dismissed.
Since you were confused by the calendar conversion here is the prophecy of Israel's return based on a single calendar.
Quote:
Bible Prophecy
Another remarkable
mathematical Bible prophecy
The Return of Israel ... May 14, 1948
"For I am God and there is no other.
I am God, and there is none like Me,
Declaring the end from the beginning,
and from ancient times
things that are not yet done . . ."
(Isaiah 46:9-10)
You are about to read one of the most fascinating and remarkable prophecies in the Bible. What makes it even more remarkable is what it implies. For when we realize how precisely this prophecy has been fulfilled after 2,500 years, we must realize all the Bible prophecies concerning Israel and the world including the coming 'Apocalypse,' the Battle of Armageddon, Messiah's Return, and the many promises and warnings concerning both Heaven and Hell will be fulfilled just as accurately and literally as the amazing prophecy presented here ...
The Prophecy ... Ezekiel 4:4-6
"Then God said to Ezekiel,
'Now lie on your left side for 390 days
to show Israel will be punished for 390 years
by captivity and doom.
Each day you lie there represents
a year of punishment ahead for Israel.
Afterwards, turn over and lay on your right side
for 40 days, to signify the years of Judah's punishment.
Each day will represent one year . . .'"
(Ezekiel 4:4-6)
This Is A Mathematical Bible Prophecy . . .
Although a little obscure (and sophisticated) this is one of the most fascinating prophecies found in the Bible.
Here, we find God telling Ezekiel that each day he (Ezekiel) lies on his side will represent one year of punishment for the nation Israel (Israel + Judah) because of their iniquities (sins) against God . . .
So, we have:
390 days Judgment against the 10 northern tribes 'Israel'
+ 40 days Judgment against the 2 southern tribes 'Judah'
= 430 years Judgment against the nation of Israel
The Fulfillment of the Prophetic Judgment Begins . . .
In 606 B.C. Israel (Judah) was taken into captivity by Babylon for exactly 70 years ...
430 years of judgment determined against nation Israel
- 70 years fulfilled during the Babylonian captivity
= 360 years remaining in judgment against the nation of Israel
The Mystery of 360 Years . . .
There should have been a total of 360 years left in judgment against Israel after their release from Babylonian captivity by the Persian general Cyrus, exactly 70 years after the Babylonian captivity began (just as the prophet Jeremiah had prophesied before the captivity) ... but where was the remaining 360 year judgment in Israel's history??!!
The 7X Factor of God's Judgment . . .
Bible scholars could not find any specific captivity or dispersion that fulfilled these 360 years left in the judgment until a close look in the book of Leviticus revealed a startling prophetic warning ...
"And after all this, if you do not obey Me,
then I (God) will punish you seven times more for your sins."
(Leviticus 26:18)
"Then, if you walk contrary to Me,
and are not willing to obey Me,
I (God) will bring on you seven times more plagues,
according to your sins."
(Leviticus 26:21) "And after all this,
if you do not obey Me,
but walk contrary to Me,
then I (God) also will walk contrary to you in fury;
and I, even I will chastise you seven times for your sins.:
(Leviticus 26:27-28) "I (God) will scatter you among the nations
and draw a sword after you;
your Land shall be desolate
and your cities waste."
(Leviticus 26:33)
The 7X factor of God's judgment against nation Israel. God warned Israel if they continued in their disobedience He would multiply their judgment by seven times! Remember, as noted throughout these prophetic studies, God says what He means and He means what He says!
Prophecy Fulfilled . . .
Now, let's apply the 7X factor to the remaining 360 years of judgment against nation Israel in this remarkable mathematical prophecy . . .
360 Remaining years of judgment x 7 The prophetic '7X' factor = 2,520 Years of judgment remained against nation Israel
God gave the Jews the most sophisticated calendar on Earth. It is both a Lunar and a Solar calendar. The Jewish calendar uses a 360 day lunar (and prophetic) year and then adds a 'Leap Month' on specific years to accurately coincide with the Solar cycle we use on our 'Julian' calendar ...
The Bible uses 360 day years for prophecies and expects us to add the appropriate 'leap months' on schedule. So, the easiest way to unravel this prophecy is to first convert this prophecy into days ...
2,520 years x 360 days = 907,200 days of judgment remained against nation Israel after the Babylonian captivity
Now, to convert the 907,200 days found in this prophecy into our 365.25 day solar (Julian) years (the .25 adjusts for leap years) . . . 907,200 days ÷ 365.25 days = 2,483.78 years of God's judgment remained
With this information, let's look at this remarkable prophecy again . . . 606 B.C Israel taken into Babylonian captivity - 70 Years for 70 years = 536 B.C. End of first 70 years of judgment
+ 2483 Years Now add the 2,483 years remaining in this judgment + 1 Year Add 1 year because there is no "0" B.C. or A.D. = 1948 AD! End of judgment against nation Israel
Israel Back in Her Land as a Nation . . . in 1948!
Judah (Israel) was taken into captivity by the Babylonians in 606 B.C. They were released from captivity 70 years later by the Persians in 536 A.D., exactly as the prophet Jeremiah had prophesied, but their land was still under the control of the Persians. The Persians were later conquered by the Greeks, and the land of Israel remained under Greek control. The Greeks were then conquered by Rome and the land of Israel remained under Roman control. After failed rebellions against Rome around 70 A.D. and another around 100 years later, the Romans removed the Jews from the land of Israel, dispersed them around the world and then renamed the land 'Palestine' after the enemies of Israel. Then, after 2,500 years, and for the first time since the Babylonian captivity in 606 B.C., the world watched as Israel once again appeared on the world map as a sovereign nation, on May 14, 1948 ... exactly when the Bible said it would!
"Thus says the Lord God:
'Surely I will take the children of Israel
from among the nations,
wherever they have gone,
and will gather them from every side
and bring them into their own land."
(Ezekiel 37:21) ['Nations' (plural)...this is not their return from Babylon]
JERUSALEM ...
JERUSALEM ... What makes this mathematical Bible prophecy even MORE remarkable is if you take this same prophetic timeline which starts on the year of Babylon's conquest of the nation Israel and ends with Israel once again raised as a nation in 1948 ... now ... shift the exact same prophetic timeline to start on the year when Babylon returned and destroyed Jerusalem (19 years later) ... and (remarkably) this prophetic timeline's "end-point" now falls on the exact year Israel once again took sovereign control over Jerusalem in 1967 (after the "Six Day War.)
For a more precise study of this remarkable prophetic fulfillment of Ezekiel's prophecy in 1948 and 1967 read here ... Ezekiel's 430 day prophecy - Detailing the length of the "Desolations of Jerusalem" and the "Servitude of the Nation"- (Chuck Missler K-House Bible study)
A Future Warning For Israel and the World . . .
How has the world reacted to such a profound fulfillment of Bible prophecy? A miracle that can be proven and documented by simply looking at the Bible and a map ... and then simply adding the years. It has ignored it! Just as God has warned most of the world will ignore the Bible warnings of the coming 'Apocalypse' (also called the 'Time of Jacob's (Israel's) Trouble', the 'Great Tribulation,' and the 'Day of God's Wrath.') For the Bible also warns a series of terrible prophetic events which will change the world forever would begin to unfold immediately after Israel became a Nation in 1948! If you diligently study the prophecies and watch the world news from a Biblical perspective you will soon find many of the prophetic events the Bible warns us about are now in the process of being fulfilled! God also promises to shelter and protect all those who will sincerely return to Him in love and in faith before the coming time of trouble. Remember, God uses prophecy to prove He is who He says His is, and to authenticate all the warnings and the promises found in the Bible . . .
The Most Important Prophetic Warning Found in the Bible . . .
Our eternal destiny ... Heaven or Hell. Please remember, the Bible tells us Heaven is available to every man, woman, boy, and girl in this world, no matter who they are, where they live, what they have done, or how old they are. Eternal life in the Kingdom of Heaven is freely offered ... the Bible tells us Jesus-Yeshua, the Messiah, is "King of kings and Lord of lords"... King above both Earth and Heaven. Learn of Jesus-Yeshua, the Messiah, invite Him into your life as Lord and Savior, believe He died on the Cross for all of your sins and rose from the grave (which fulfilled Bible prophecies and proved there is life waiting for us in either Heaven or in Hell after this body dies). Learn of Him and believe in Him ... for He was the only one who ever loved you enough to substitute Himself for you on the Cross. He lovingly paid your debt. The Bible clearly warns we can't 'earn' our way into Heaven by our 'good deeds.' Jesus shed His blood, suffered, and died on the Cross to save us from our sins and from the utter darkness of Hell, if you will accept it, believe it, and trust in it. That is why Jesus-Yeshua is called Savior. He now lovingly and graciously offers life in Heaven (and we are warned it is a "take it or leave it" proposition.) We have to consciously receive it and accept it in faith. If you sincerely admit you have sinned, and ask Jesus-Yeshua to come into your life, and repent by honestly trying to stop doing (and saying) all those things God says are wrong and are against His Law, you will go to Heaven ... and with open arms and tears of joy He will receive all who will come to Him in faith and in love ... It's God's Promise!!!
The only unpardonable sin is to reject God's love by rejecting Jesus-Yeshua, the promised Messiah, who lovingly and willingly died for our sins ... who stepped forth from Eternity ("from old, from everlasting ... see Micah 5:2) and put on the form of Man ... to save sinners ... lots of them ... any and all who would believe and trust in Him ... from the eternal loneliness, darkness, and torment of Hell. He humbly and lovingly laid down and offered His life on the Cross as the sacrificial 'Lamb of God' (the ultimate and final sin offering for both the children of Israel and for the whole world ... EXACTLY as the prophets said He would) so we can be washed clean of all our sins. He took the penalty for all of our sins upon Himself. But, we have to believe it, accept it, and receive it in our hearts, in faith. The Bible warns there will be no peace in our hearts until we make peace with God through His Son, Jesus-Yeshua, the promised Messiah, who died for us, so we might live in Heaven through Him. The Bible also warns there will be no peace in Israel or on Earth until the Messiah returns . . .
The Bible Warns There Is No Other Way Into Heaven . . .
Jesus-Yeshua, the promised Messiah, knew what was about to happen when He prayed, "If there is any other way" three times in the garden the night before He was crucified. He was telling us something very important. If you believe there was, or is, any other way to gain entrance into Heaven other than believing in the One who suffered for our sins on the Cross, then you must deny the Bible is God's Word and believe Jesus simply suffered and died needlessly and in vain on the Cross. However, God tells us in the Bible Jesus-Yeshua, the promised Messiah, lovingly laid down His life for you and for me so we might one day enter into His Kingdom of Heaven ...
"The Lord is my shepherd . . ."
(Psalm 23:1)
And Jesus-Yeshua graciously tells us,
"I am the good shepherd.
The good shepherd gives his life for the sheep."
(John 10:11)
"Let not your heart be troubled;
you believe in God, believe also in Me.
In My Father's house are many mansions (abiding places);
_________________ “I think one of [James Hoffmeier’s] most important points is that we have unrealistic expectations for what archaeology can offer us as far as ‘proving’ Exodus: ‘After all, what evidence, short of an inscription in a Proto-Canaanite script stating “bricks made by Hebrew slaves” would be considered proof that the Israelites were in Egypt. Archaeology’s ability … is quite limited.’” Jeff Lambert, Editorial Associate, Biblical Archaeological Review. via email January 26, 2010 8:20:58 AM. [email receipiant redacted for privacy reasons. See Thread-The Bible's Buried Secrets for full text.]
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Re: Was the New Testament Influenced by Pagan Religions/Jesus has nothing to do with Osiris,Isis, etc
Spamwe wrote:
The body of Jesus was under Roman control. If Joseph had not asked for it the body would have remained on the cross potentially for days inviolation of the Jewis law. Joseph taking the body down, preparing it for burial and placing it in his tomb did not in any way shape or form make him the custodian of Jesus. Robert, who was guarding the tomb? Who? And again Robert WHO? That's right Robert, the Romans! If Joseph was the custodian he would have posted guards then they would not have been ROMAN would they Robert.
It is good that you bring Joseph of Arimathea into the discussion though as there is another prophecy from the OT fulfilled here: mumbly spam
I didn't bring Joseph of Arimathea in, you did, from the 99 examples in the list from Gerald Massey of how Christianity derived its mythos from Egypt. The link I gave is http://www.kemetway.com/massey2.html
With idiot nitpicking of that standard (Roman control!), it is no surprise that you cannot understand Massey. If you close your eyes and put your hands over your ears and shout woohoo loudly enough, the truth may well go away. That seems to be the creationist approach.
Massey compares Joseph of Arimathea to Seb, a 19th century translation of Geb, god of the earth. Here is a picture of Geb, separated from Nut the sky goddess by Shu the God of the air. It makes good sense to consider Geb the earth god as the custodian of Christ.
Last edited by Robert Tulip on Thu Jun 16, 2011 12:05 pm, edited 1 time in total.
The Resurrection of Osiris According to Farrell Till
By Mark Mcfall
In my experiences with critics I have often been faced with the charge that Christ’s resurrection was borrowed from the accounts of the most well known god in all of ancient Egyptian history - Osiris. Indeed, Osiris as explained by one of Christianity’s most out-spoken critics Farrell Till (editor of the Skeptical Review and owner of the critical list - Errancy) seems to show that such similarities do exist. While this article focuses for the most part on Mr. Till’s formulated parallels between Jesus Christ and Osiris, it nonetheless will adequately equip Christians with enough critical information to give a ready response (1 Peter 3:15) to those who have expressed similar analogues.
The best way for me to familiarize you with how the critic approaches this seemingly close similarity is to present a portion of a debate that took place on March 29, 1994, at the Columbus College Fine Arts Hall (Columbus, GA) between Christian apologist Norman Geilser, and former preacher Farrell Till.[1] In that debate, Mr. Till had made the following assertion in his concluding remarks:
“I'll use this time to refer to some things that I didn't have the opportunity to refer to during the regular speeches. Dr. Geisler made the statement that the pagans saviors were not like Jesus because they did not experience bodily resurrection. But I want to assure you, my friends, that that is not so. O-s-i-r-i-s, write it down, O-s-i-r-i-s, he was an ancient Egyptian, virgin-born, savior-god who died, and he was resurrected. You research and you'll find that his mother [sic2] searched for his body that had been torn to pieces, put it back together, sort of like in Frankenstein manner, and he was resurrected bodily back to life. That's just one example that I could give you...He [Geisler] is depending upon your ignorance, people. And I'm not trying to be insulting to you. Your preachers do it all the time. You get the wool pulled over your eyes, and it's your own fault, because you don't know the Bible, first of all, and you certainly know very little about the history of religion. If you would go examine the evidence, you would see that many of the things that he is telling you have no basis in fact.”[3]3]
Unfortunately Dr. Geisler chose not to respond to Mr. Till’s comments (see “The Geisler-Till Debate,” Skeptical Review, 1994, #3 {http://www.infidels.org/library/magazines/tsr/1994/3/3geis94.html}). But Till asks us (the audience) to do some “research” on Osiris to bear out his assertion. Well, I did, and what I found was sloppy reporting on the part of Till.
The Myth
The most common and complex version of the Osiris myth comes from the Greek historian Plutarch (approx. c.34-125 A.D.) in his work Isis and Osiris. According to Till’s paraphrase of that work found in the archives of the critical list Errancy, he writes:
“Osiris's evil brother Set plotted with others to kill Osiris. This was accomplished by tricking Osiris during a banquet to lie down in a chest that had been especially prepared for him. When Osiris was inside the chest, Set and his cohorts closed it immediately and took it to the Nile and put it into the river. When Isis, the sister-wife of Osiris heard what had happened, she set out to find the chest. The legend is detailed, but to make a long story short, Isis learned that the chest had drifted out to sea and landed on the coast of Byblos. She went there, found the chest, recovered the body, embraced it, and wailed inconsolably. She hid the body in a secret place, which Set discovered, after which he severed the body into 14 different pieces and scattered them throughout Egypt. The myth then continues as Isis searched Egypt, found the body parts, put them back together, and then hovered over Osiris and fanned the breath of life back into his body.”[4] 4]
Mr. Till has for the most part accurately reported the myth up to this point from Plutarch. But, it is the language that Till uses next which implies that he is not satisfied in keeping with the type of terminology used by Plutarch.”[5] Mr. Till writes:
“Different versions of the myth will disagree in some details, but an old inerrantist comment about inconsistencies in the gospel accounts of the resurrection is worth adapting to the Osiris myth: the important thing is that all of the accounts agree that Osiris was killed and resurrected to life.”[6]
Readers should take notice of the change in expression used by Till from “fanned the breath of life back into his body,“ to that of “resurrected to life.” Methodologically, Mr. Till has amalgamated the two phrases in order to make his own exaggerated parallel look real. But scholarship is not so quick to take that extra step. Indeed, Bruce Metzger (Professor of New Testament Language and Literature, Emeritus, at Princeton Theological Seminary) comments:
“Whether this can be rightly called a resurrection is questionable...” (Bruce Metzger, _Historical and Literary Studies: Pagan, Jewish, and Christian_, pg. 21).
Professor Ronald Nash author of the informative book _The Gospels And The Greeks_ agrees with Metzger’s assessment and explains that “some writers go much too far and refer to Osiris’s resurrection.”[7] Nash sees the terminology used by Till (and others) as claiming far more than the myth allows. This view according to Nash suggests the misleading analogy of a comparison between the resurrection of Jesus and the resuscitation of Osiris. Moreover, while Till is correct in commenting that “different versions of the myth will disagree in some details,” he has exaggerated his point that “the important thing is that ALL [emphasis mine] of the accounts agree that Osiris was killed and resurrected to life.” To this Professor Nash informs us that:
“Not every version of the myth has Osiris returning to life; in some he simply becomes king of the underworld.”[8]8]
Karl Widemann Professor of Egyptology at the University of Bonn. collaborates Nash’s assessment:
“Above all, the conceptions regarding the most important episode in the god’s existence, namely his resurrection, differed very widely, especially in the later texts.”[9]
Till’s attempt to exaggerate the existing evidence is strained by the data. Even in those instances where the text may be questionable, many scholars are reluctant to refer to it as a resurrection. Professor Nash captures the German scholar Gunter Wagner in one of these moments, Wagner writes:
“Osiris knew no resurrection, but was resuscitated to be a ruler of the Nether world.” [10]
Informed scholars don’t see this as cut and dry as Till would have us believe, and this will become clearer as we continue to examine Till’s claim.
Natural Symbolism
According to the _Encyclopedia Britannica_ under the entry Osiris, we read:
“From about 2000 BC onward it was believed that every man, not just the deceased kings, became associated with Osiris at death. This identification with Osiris, however, did not imply resurrection, for even Osiris did not rise from the dead. Instead, it signified the renewal of life both in the next world and through one's descendants on Earth. In this universalized form Osiris' cult spread throughout Egypt, often joining with the cults of local fertility and underworld deities.”[11]11]
This contemporary secular source understands that “Osiris did not rise from the dead.” Furthermore, upon checking the _Encyclopedia of Religion_ we find that Osiris was “originally a vegetation god.”[12] The death of Osiris symbolized to the Egyptians the yearly drought and in his rebirth the periodical flooding of the Nile and the growth of grain. This of course, represents the pattern of cyclical recurrences of seasons. Professor Bruce Metzger says of this:
“such myths are the expression of ancient nature-symbolism; the spirit of vegetation dies every year and rises every year.”[13]13]
The Christian faith is so vastly different from this type of reoccurring naturalist symbolism. For the Christian, the importance of Jesus’ work was related just to this “once-for-all” (Hebrews 10:10) character of his death and resurrection.[14]
What Did Till Mean?
As a member of the critical list known as Errancy, I had the opportunity to ask other critics if Farrell Till really meant a bodily resurrection to earth, or a bodily resurrection to the netherworld. One critic responded to me by charging that I was misinterpreting Till’s comments to mean that Osiris was resurrected to earth. The critic writes:
“Wrong, wrong, wrong. Till NEVER says in the debate that Osiris was resurrected back to earth. Just show us where he said this.”[15]15]
Immediately after this, Till responded to this critic by clarifying that:
“I may not have specifically said ‘resurrected back to earth’ in the debate, but the myth requires that conclusion, as you will see in a separate reply that I have sent to Mark McFall.[16]
It is clear (if it was not before) from this reply by Farrell Till that I am not misunderstanding him on this. My reasoning for bringing this to the attention of readers is to show future critics who read this article that I am not taking Mr. Till out of context. The Art Of War
Till’s bases for believing that Osiris had bodily resurrected back to earth is summed up in his following words:
“The bodily resurrection of Osiris may have been brief, but it was nevertheless a resurrection back to earth long enough for Osiris to instruct his son Horus in the art of war and to urge him to avenge the death of his father on Set. Whether this was for one minute, one day, five days, or whatever, is immaterial. Mark McFall will simply be engaging in typical biblicist quibbling on the issue if he tries to argue that Osiris's resurrection to an earth life was just brief, whereas Jesus remained on earth for 40 days.”[17]“...After this, Osiris descended into the world of the dead to become their judge and the hope of resurrection to those who still lived on earth.”[18]
Before we tackle this aspect, a brief introduction to a popular scholarly source used by critics is in order. In 1908 the Egyptian Antiquities scholar and critic of Christianity Wallis Budge published a three-volume edition of _The Book of the Dead_ (i.e. ancient religious text of the Egyptians). The first volume consists only of copies of the original hieroglyphic pages of the book, the second volume contains English translations of the hieroglyphics, and the third volume is a vocabulary dictionary.[19] While Budge’s book has fallen out of favor in the Egyptological community in recent years for more updated material, it nonetheless remains a driving force behind critical opponents of Christ’s resurrection.
It is in Budge’s introduction to the _The Book Of The Dead_ (The Papyrus of Ani) that we meet the critics on their own turf. Here, Budge’s research shows that Osiris “returned from the other world”[20] to give those avenging instructions on battle to Horus for the purpose of overtaking Set. Furthermore, after Osiris “returned from the other world” to give the avenging instructions, Budge cites the IVth Sallier papyrus version which seems to flush out the complexities of that discussion. The papyrus reads:
“Horus and Set fought in the form of two men, but they afterwards changed themselves into two bears, and they passed three days and three nights in this form.”[21]21]
The mythical overtones of the results from that discussion are obvious. According to the myth there was no bodily resurrection of Osiris. This is further backed up by the contemporary mythic scholar Anthony S. Mercantante in his “humanities” edition of _The Facts On File Encyclopedia of World Mythology and Legend_, Mercantante explains that:
“After some time Osiris’s SPIRIT [emphasis mine] returned from the dead and appeared to his son Horus, encouraging Horus to avenge his father’s death.”[22]22]
These authoritative sources contradict Till’s assertion that Osiris “resurrected back to earth long enough [i.e. bodily] ...to instruct his son Horus in the art of war...” Mr. Till in essence has confused the issue.
According to another version as explained by the Egyptian scholar J.H. Breasted in his book on the _Development of Religion and Thought in Ancient Egypt_; reports that:
“Isis brought up Horus without his father [Osiris], but she raised him to avenge his father's death” (Breasted 29).[23]
Here we have a report that Isis influenced Horus “to avenge his father’s death” on Set. The evidence for Mr. Till’s foundation of his assertion is certainly shaky and contradictory at its most crucial point. By Till tapping into disputed details, it leads me to believe that he is banking on overloading any Christian who takes him up on his challenge to “examine the evidence.” In essence, Mr. Till “is depending on your ignorance, people” (Quoting Mr. Till).
Non-Christian authors Georges Nagel and Joseph Campbell in _The Mysteries of Osiris in Ancient Egypt_ explain that:
“The various episodes of the legend are not attested in the same way and with the same frequency. The texts often speak of the battles of Horus and Seth for the heritage of Osiris, and often they mention the laments of Isis over her husband’s death. But with regard to the actual death and resurrection of Osiris they are always quite reticent and usually give us no more than brief allusions.”[24]24]
In light of critical scholarship, Till’s assertions that Osiris bodily resurrected to earth according to the myth is questionable.
Research
I asked Farrell Till what sources he used to support his claim that the myth indicates an earthly resurrected Osiris. Till stated that:
“My debate notes were prepared from the versions of the myth as related by Plutarch and Diodorus of Siculus and, of course, the Book of the Dead. I don't have these works in my personal library, because they were obtained on interlibrary loan, but if you want to dispute the details of the myth as I uncovered them, I'll gladly use interlibrary loan to get the books again. That, however, would take some time. I am personally confident enough in the accuracy of the notes that I took from these works to stand by what I will be saying later on to show that some versions of the myth had Osiris resurrected on earth, where he remained for a period of time before descending into the netherworld.”[25]25]
As Christians we must be skeptical of such flimsy foundations for arguments and demand references to books, chapters, and verses where they occur.[26] Simply being “personally confident” without qualification is not enough. The Apostle Paul long ago warned and urged Christians to “examine everything carefully; hold fast to that which is good” (1 Thes. 5:21).
The Resurrected Osiris
As we continue to examine the scholarly works on the myth of Osiris. We should take notice of mythic scholar J. Smith; his studies of the myth have shown that:
“The pieces of his body were recovered and rejoined, and the god was rejuvenated. However, he did not return to his former mode of existence but rather journeyed to the underworld, where he became the powerful lord of the dead. In no sense can Osiris be said to have ‘risen’ in the sense required by the dying and rising pattern...In no sense can the dramatic myth of his death and reanimation be harmonized to the pattern of dying and rising gods.”[27]27]
Catholic scholar and archaeologist Roland de Vaux elaborates on this new mode of existence in his book _The Bible and the Ancient Near East_. Vaux explains:
"What is meant of Osiris being 'raised to life'? Simply that, thanks to the ministrations of Isis, he is able to lead a life beyond the tomb which is an almost perfect replica of earthly existence. But he will never again come among the living and will reign only over the dead...This revived god is in reality a 'mummy' god."[28]28]
_The Encyclopedia Mythica_ confirms Vaux’s thesis and explicitly states that:
“They mummified Osiris, and put his body in a lion headed pier. Isis changed into a kite and fanned breath into Osiris. He was not allowed to stay in the land of the living, and was sent to the underworld to serve as king, and to judge the souls of the dead.”[29]29]
_The Encyclopedic Theosophical Glossary_ identifies the title given to the mummified Osiris in the “underworld” as “Khenti-Amentet,”[30] meaning “Lord of the Underworld and Ruler of the Dead.” Again, the indications from good modern scholarship is that Osiris was not resurrected back to earth (according to Till’s terminology), but in fact was resuscitated or reanimated to another world or realm in accordance with the language allowed by the myth.
Burial Locations
Professor Bruce Metzger cites the Greek historian Plutarch who reports that the believers of Osiris still believed that Osiris’s grave was still occupied, Metzger writes:
“it was the pious desire of devotees to be buried in the same ground where, according to local tradition, the body of Osiris was still lying”[31]31](Plutarch, de Iside et Osiride, 359B {20}).
Metzger also notes that:
“no fewer than twenty-three locations, identified by classical authors and Greek inscriptions, clamed to be the place where Osiris’s body lay.[32]
What this implies to us is, is that those who held that Osiris “returned to life” (using Plutarch’s phraseology), also believed that he did NOT bodily resurrect back to earth, but instead, they seem to have believed that Osiris reanimated to the netherworld leaving his corpse in the grave. This of course, is far different from the GUARDED and SEALED tomb of Jesus Christ (Matt. 27:66) out of which he emerged three Jewish days later.
Osiris Insriptions
The following inscriptions have been put forth by critics in an attempt to demonstrate that the believers of Osiris thought that he had resurrected in the flesh back to earth. They are:
"O flesh of Teta, rot not, decay not, stink not." (Recueil de Travaux, t. v., p. 55 ({l. 347}).
"Pepi [Osiris] goeth forth with his flesh"; (ibid., t. v., p. 185 ({1. 169}).
"thy bones shall not be destroyed, and thy flesh shall not perish"; (ibid., p. 55 ({l. 353}).[33]
In light of these inscriptions and others like it, Wallis Budge states:
"This belief may have rested upon the view that the life in the next world was but a continuation of the life upon earth, which it resembled closely, or it may have been due to the survival of semi-savage gross ideas incorporated into the religious texts of the Egyptians."[34]34] (THE BOOK OF THE DEAD, Papyrus of Ani, p. lxxviii)
Budge’s comments show that Osiris did NOT bodily resurrect to earth as we know earth to be. While there is no doubt that Egyptians believed in some form of an afterlife, the bodily resurrection of persons back to earth seems not to be apart of Egyptian thought. Budge writes:
“But while we have this evidence of the Egyptian belief in eternal life, we are nowhere told that man's corruptible body will rise again; indeed, the following extracts show that the idea prevailed that the body lay in the earth while the soul or spirit lived in heaven.”[35]35]
The extracts (i.e. inscriptions) that Budge cites are:
“Soul to heaven, body to earth.” (Recueil de Travaux, t. iv., p. 71 (l. 582) Vth dynasty)
“Thy essence is in heaven, thy body to earth.” (Recueil de Travaux, t. v., p. 170 (Pepi, 1. 85, VIth dynasty)
“Heaven hath thy soul, earth hath thy body.” (###. Plate XIX., l. 16 (Book of the Dead, Chapter CLXXV., Ptolemaic period)[36]
All this evidence puts Mr. Till’s original assertion into serious question. If Osiris was bodily resurrected back to earth as we know earth to be, it would only seem likely that he was resurrected in this way according to much later imaginations of writers - namely as late as Farrell Till.
-----Footnotes--------------------
[1] Farrell Till comments that: “Altogether, I spent twelve years preaching for the Churches of Christ, and five of those years involved in missionary work in France. My skepticism began while I was there...When deep-seated doubts finally led me to abandon the ministry, I wasn't content to be just a skeptic; I had to become an evangelical atheist.” http://members.fortunecity.com/wantobe/ldjil.html
[2] In my dealings with Farrell Till, he acknowledged that he was mistaken on the identity of the one who restored Osiris’ life. Till writes: “The reference to Isis as the mother of Osiris was, of course, a mistake, one of those things that will happen when one is speaking extemporaneously.” (Errancy list, 2/20/01). The identity of this person is Isis his wife/sister.
[4] In putting together this article I had asked the critics of the Errancy list for information on the myth of the bodily resurrection of Osiris. I had stated that my interest lies in knowing the sources in which critics see a parallel in the alleged bodily resurrection of Jesus Christ. Tim Taylor responded to my request with this citation from Farrell Till (02/17/01).
[5] Plutarch, Moralia: On Isis and Osiris. Loeb edition, 5.7-191. (Translator: Frank C. Babbitt). Note: Plutarch uses the phrase “returned to life.”
[6] Reposted by Tim Taylor on Errancy (02/17/01) from an earlier statement by Farrell Till. [7] Ronald Nash, The Gospel And The Greeks, pg. 137.
[8] Ibid, pg. 138.
[9] James Hastings, Dictionary of the Bible, Vol. 5, pg. 194.
[10] Ronald Nash, The Gospel And The Greeks, footnote on pg. 292. Gunter Wagner, Pauline Baptism and the Pagan Mysteries, pg. 261.
[22] Anthony S. Mercatante, The Facts On File Encyclopedia of World Mythology and Legend. Entry: Osiris, pg. 502.
[23] Breasted, J.H. Development of Religion and Thought in Ancient Egypt. New York: Harper, and Row Publishing, Inc., 1959. Quotation originally taken from The Ancient Egyptian Worship of the Sun, by Kellyanne Lynch, 9/98 (http://members.rotfl.com/Isis/sunworship.html).
[24] Originally cited by Bruce Metzger in his work Historical and Literary Studies: Pagan, Jewish, and Christian. pg. 19 (footnote). Georges Nagel, The Mysteries of Osiris in Ancient Egypt, The Mysteries, Papers from the Eranos Yearbooks, ed. by Joseph Campbell.
[25] Errancy list, 2/21/01.
[26] I attempted to give Farrell Till the easy way out, so I asked for just one reference from Plutarch because of its easy accessibility. To date, Till has not provided that reference which would confirm his thesis. So I remain skeptical.
[27] J. Smith, Dying and Rising Gods, pg. 524-525.
[28] Roland de Vaux, The Bible and the Ancient Near East, 1971, p. 236.
[30] Encyclopedic Theosophical Glossary: Oa-Oz: http://www.theosociety.org/pasadena/etgloss/oa-oz.htm . Clarification on this title can be consulted in E. A. Wallis Budge’s work The Gods of the Egyptians (vol.I, page 82). Budge reports that "Khent-Amenti" was one of the gods of the pyramid texts (Unas 201). In his chapters on Osiris in the same work (vol II, chapters 6-11, pages 113-194) we are informed that "Khent-Amenti was a title of Osiris. (Information on confirmation was supplied by Joseph Crea of the Errancy list).
[31] Bruce Metzger, Historical and Literary Studies: Pagan, Jewish, and Christian. pg 21.
[36] Ibid. Look for some of these references at https://www.christianbook.com home of CBD, Christian Book Distributors.
tag
_________________ “I think one of [James Hoffmeier’s] most important points is that we have unrealistic expectations for what archaeology can offer us as far as ‘proving’ Exodus: ‘After all, what evidence, short of an inscription in a Proto-Canaanite script stating “bricks made by Hebrew slaves” would be considered proof that the Israelites were in Egypt. Archaeology’s ability … is quite limited.’” Jeff Lambert, Editorial Associate, Biblical Archaeological Review. via email January 26, 2010 8:20:58 AM. [email receipiant redacted for privacy reasons. See Thread-The Bible's Buried Secrets for full text.]
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Re: Was the New Testament Influenced by Pagan Religions/Jesus has nothing to do with Osiris,Isis, etc
Robert Tulip wrote:
Spamwe wrote:
The body of Jesus was under Roman control. If Joseph had not asked for it the body would have remained on the cross potentially for days inviolation of the Jewis law. Joseph taking the body down, preparing it for burial and placing it in his tomb did not in any way shape or form make him the custodian of Jesus. Robert, who was guarding the tomb? Who? And again Robert WHO? That's right Robert, the Romans! If Joseph was the custodian he would have posted guards then they would not have been ROMAN would they Robert.
It is good that you bring Joseph of Arimathea into the discussion though as there is another prophecy from the OT fulfilled here: mumbly spam
I didn't bring Joseph of Arimathea in, you did, from the 99 examples in the list from Gerald Massey of how Christianity derived its mythos from Egypt. The link I gave is http://www.kemetway.com/massey2.html
With idiot nitpicking of that standard (Roman control!), it is no surprise that you cannot understand Massey. If you close your eyes and put your hands over your ears and shout woohoo loudly enough, the truth may well go away. That seems to be the creationist approach.
Massey compares Joseph of Arimathea to Seb, a 19th century translation of Geb, god of the earth. Here is a picture of Geb, separated from Nut the sky goddess by Shu the God of the air. It makes good sense to consider Geb the earth god as the custodian of Christ.[/quote]
I wasn't the one who posted the Gerald Massey list so you are wrong again.
Speaking of Gerald Massey, I don't know any serious minded person who takes him seriously. He was a nutbasket.
BTW, is the image you posted copyrighted or did you draw it?
Here are three non-serious comments from this post alone:
Quote:
Massey compares Joseph of Arimathea to Seb, a 19th century translation of Geb, god of the earth.
This one is a tie to both Robert and GM
Quote:
It is good that you bring Joseph of Arimathea into the discussion though as there is another prophecy from the OT fulfilled here: mumbly spam
Way to gain a point Robert, disrespecting one of the most respected OT Prophets. Good on you. Keep it up. Give yourself a cigar. But perhaps you were merely trolling for mullet.
_________________ “I think one of [James Hoffmeier’s] most important points is that we have unrealistic expectations for what archaeology can offer us as far as ‘proving’ Exodus: ‘After all, what evidence, short of an inscription in a Proto-Canaanite script stating “bricks made by Hebrew slaves” would be considered proof that the Israelites were in Egypt. Archaeology’s ability … is quite limited.’” Jeff Lambert, Editorial Associate, Biblical Archaeological Review. via email January 26, 2010 8:20:58 AM. [email receipiant redacted for privacy reasons. See Thread-The Bible's Buried Secrets for full text.]
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Re: Was the New Testament Influenced by Pagan Religions/Jesus has nothing to do with Osiris,Isis, etc
spamwe wrote:
disrespecting one of the most respected OT Prophets
I wasn't disrespecting Isaiah, I was disrespecting you. And what ever happened to the rule about clagging up the board with long posts copying from junk sites that are just designed to make sensible posts hard to find and drive away sensible readers with spam?
The Geb, Shu and Nut image is a detail from the Papyrus of Tentamun, 21st Dynasty. Bibiotheque Nationale, Paris.
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Re: Was the New Testament Influenced by Pagan Religions/Jesus has nothing to do with Osiris,Isis, etc
stahrwe wrote:
What is a Ba?
Case in point. I don't know if he knew or didn't, but it wouldn't surprise me if Ronald Nash would have to ask the same question. If you don't know what a ba is, then you likely aren't informed enough to have any meaningful viewpoint about Osiris in the first place since that's fairly basic information about Egyptian religion that you'd come across almost as soon as you start learning about it. A ba is, very roughly, a person's spirit. While I think GodAlmighty is mistaken in his ba argument, the apologist who doesn't even know what a ba is would be hard-pressed to manage a valid opinion about Osiris at all.
If you continue going to the wrong sources you will continue to arrive at the wrong conclusions. But out of curiousity since you are who suggested them, you do know that the views of the authors on the reading list you recommended earlier from http://www.egyptianmyths.net/books.htm go almost completely against the viewpoints of these apologetics you're posting now, don't you?
The Resurrection of Osiris According to Farrell Till
By Mark Mcfall
tag
Coming right out of the gate, the article incriminates itself by citing Budge as though still authoritative. Ironic, as most apologists, like JP Holding, are quick to point out, and quite correctly, how Budge is considered highly outdated by modern Egyptologists.
But outdated scholars aside, there is no amount of NON-Egyptologists opinions such as those of Til, Metzger, or Nash, etc., that can have any impact upon those of us who have actually read THE PRIMARY SOURCES THEMSELVES and KNOW for a fact that they say Osiris resurrected, in his physical body, on earth, and THEN ascended to heaven with the sun where he was then carried to the entrance to the Duat in the West when the sun set, and that it is by re-enacting this event that the deceased also rises from the dead like Osiris did.
And not a one of the folks in that article displayed any knowledge of these primary sources, nor did they display any knowledge of ACTUAL Egyptologists who confirm as much.
For instance, such as Lois V. Zabkar, who, in his work "A Study of the Ba Concept in Ancient Egyptian Texts", thoroughly debunks the outdated notion of 19th century scholarship and proves that the Egyptian notion of resurrection, both of the deceased and of Osiris who they are mimicking, was understood to be physical, bodily resurrection, on EARTH, especially in the earliest periods, such as the Old Kingdom when the Pyramid Texts were written. It was only later after influence from outside cultures that the Egyptians gradually more & more incorporated ideas of a "spiritual" or incorporeal existence.
Quote:
It appears that both Spiegel and Fairman consider Unas burial ritual as a resurrection ritual. Spiegel often speaks of the "resurrection of the soul," but on closer inspection it becomes evident that by that term he means the "coming-forth of the soul" from the grave. It seems to us that he should have used the latter term throughout his description and avoided the expression "resurrection of the soul." First of all, the "soul" or, more correctly, the Ba never died, and without death there can be no resurrection. But there is another problem here. The Pyramid Texts state emphatically that the king never died: "(Unas) did not die, he departed alive." Unas certainly died, but to the Egyptian mythopoeic mind his death was but a transition to a new life: "Thou sleepest, thou awakest; thou diest, thou livest." This is the idea that lies behind the statement: "Atum, that son of yours is this here, Osiris ... he lives and this Unas lives; he did not die, and this Unas did not die." Spiegel understands these words as being addressed to the Ba of the king, but the Ba is not mentioned at all. The comparison is between the dead king and Osiris. Just as Osiris was killed and rose to new life, so the dead king, identified with Osiris, through the recitation of the spell is made alive again. In other words, what we have here is the bodily resurrection of the dead king and not the resurrection of his Ba, which never died. To be sure, the body was in the grave, but it did not remain there inert or inanimate; special spells were recited to call it back to life: "His limbs which were in the secret place when he joined those who are in Nun are (now) united; he spoke his last words in Heliopolis. Unas comes forth on this day in the real form of a living Akh in order that he may break up the fight and punish the quarrel. Unas comes forth as a guardian of Maat; he brings her, as she is in his possession." The same idea of bodily resurrection lies behind another statement: "Thy body is the body of this Unas, thy flesh is the flesh of this Unas, thy bones are the bones of this Unas; thou goest and this Unas goes, thus Unas goes and thou goest." This passage refers to Osiris, with whom the pharaoh is identified, as Sethe observed. Through the recitation of these spells and the effectiveness of the ritual, Unas becomes alive in his true physical corporeality. Only as such can he be transformed into a Ba or an Akh, traverse THE EARTH and the heaven, find his place among the stars, and be in command of other glorified dead (Akhs). With this idea of bodily resurrection we reach perhaps the most ancient stratum of the Egyptian conception of the afterlife, that is, a continuation of life as a physical corporeality - a conception common to other religions at the earliest stage of their belief in survival. Certainly long before the period of the Pyramid Texts speculative theologians first attempted to elaborate this primitive belief in bodily survival by differentiating more precisely between various forms of existence in the hereafter: an effective BODY, an Akh, a Ba as welll as other transformations the deceased could undergo. "The Akh (belongs) to heaven, the corpse (belongs) to the earth" is an emphatic statement indicating an advanced stage of this differentiation. It is to be remembered, however, that at ALL stages the BODY of the deceased was considered not as inert and lifeless matter but as A LIVING ENTITY which, with ALL ITS PHYSICAL AND PSYCHIC FACULTIES, FULLY LIVED in all other forms of transformation and without the effective role of which no continuation of life could be conceived. Truly, then, the Egyptian concept of man in his afterlife KNEW NOTHING of his "spiritual" constituents as opposed to his physical ones. - pg.81-83
So the Egyptian resurrection, especially back in its early days, could be nothing but a physical, bodily resurrection since originally the Egyptians had no concept of the incorporeal/ethereal/spiritual world. They did not have this dualistic idea, like the Greeks, of physical vs spiritual. As Zabkar elsewhere states-
Quote:
It is understandable that many historians of Egyptian religion, confronted with the apparent dualism of "the Ba to heaven, the corpse to the Duat," have tried to identify the Ba as the spiritual element in opposition to the body as the material or physical element. The Egyptian concept of man KNEW NO SUCH DISTINCTION. - p.112
Quote:
The dualistic view that man is constituted of two distinct elements, in the sense of the Orphic, Platonic, Gnostic, and Scholastic philosophies, IS ALIEN TO THE EGYPTIAN CONCEPT OF MAN. Though the ancient Egyptian was thought to live after death in a multiplicity of forms, each of these forms was the full man himself. For this reason we consider the Egyptian concept of man to monistic. - p.113
Other interesting statements relevant here-
Quote:
On one stela we read: "May they (i.e., the gods) grant (to me) to be an Akh in heaven, powerful ON EARTH, justified in the god's domain, to enter my tomb AND TO COME OUT OF IT, to refresh myself in its shadow and to drink water from my pool every day. May all MY LIMBS be vigorous and maye THE NILE give me sustenance and the offerings of every vegetable and fruit in their season. May I promenade on the edge of my lake every day without interruption. May my Ba alight upon the branches of the trees which I have planted, may I refresh myself under my sycamore trees and eat the fruit which they give. I am in possession of my mouth and I speak with it like the Followers of Horus. I ascend to heaven AND DESCEND TO EARTH without being turned back from (my) way. There are no barriers made for my Ka, my Ba is not detained. I am in the midst of the honored, among the revered." - p.138
Quote:
In this vignette, however, the Ba brings food and drink to the mummified body of the deceased. The scene need not be interpreted as indicating that the Ba as a "spiritual" element revivified the dead body, causing it to rise from the dead and "come forth by day." The very fact that the Ba is carrying food and drink to the body indicates that THE BODY IS ALIVE AND CAPABLE OF EATING AND DRINKING. The body has been prepared to perform these functions through the ceremony of the "opening of the mouth," which is represented as taking place in front of the tomb and above the shaft down which the Ba is flying. It is by virtue of this ritual that the deceased is able to "come forth by day" and as the text of chapter 117 of the Book of the Dead written above the deceased, who is contemplating the rising sun, states, that HE CAN WALK, STAND, SIT, SPEAK in the presence of the great god, the lord of the West[Osiris]. Therefore, the vignettes in the Book of the Dead and the reliefs in temples of the late period that show the Ba-bird hovering over the body, resting on it, flying down the shaft to join it, as well as the spell for causing a man's Ba to join his corpse, are not to be explained in dualistic terms indicating the return of the "spiritual" or "immaterial" element into the body to revivify the rigid, lifeless corpse but rather as providing THE ALREADY RITUALLY REVIVIFIED DEAD with one of the forms through which he can best attain fullness of freedom and movement in his after-death existence. - p. 146
Quote:
The mythological revivification of Osiris by the goddess Nut, known rom the Pyramid Texts, is here applied to the deceased Nebseny, the gesture of "spreading over" the body of the deceased indicating the act of revivification. Other texts, especially those of the later period, speak of "making to live," "animating" (scnh), THE CORPSE, just as they speak of animating the BA, the Akh, the heart, the Ha, and the Shadow, Thus it can be said that THE EGYPTIAN BELIEVED THAT THE CORPSE COULD BE REVIVIFIED, a belief which was undoubtedly based upon a ritual identification with THE REVIVIFICATION OF OSIRIS. If in its transit from the temporal existence the body was ritually revivified, the Egyptian knew no final death. SHOULD THIS RESTORATION OF THE BODY FAIL TO BE ACHIEVED, THE BODY WOULD REMAIN AN INANIMATE CORPSE AND WOULD SUFFER THE FATAL "SECOND DEATH". A special spell, chapter 44 of the Book of the Dead, was provided to save the deceased from this final desctruction. A passage in the Coffin Texts read: "I AM RISEN as king of the gods and I shall not die again." Primitive man never considered death a natural or normal event. The Egyptian of the mortuary literature denied the sting of death and continued to live NOT because he believed in the existence of an "immortal soul," a thought which could appeal to the Greek mind but could not satisfy the aspirations of the man on the Nile, but because ALL OF HIS FACULTIES, PHYSICAL as well as psychic, continued to exist; he lived eternally AS A MAN, in the FULLEST meaning of the word. It would be difficult to find a text which would better indicate that the deceased enjoyed the afterlife both as a Ba and as a REVIVIFIED BODY, or indeed, as any form he might assume, than does a well-known inscription in the tomb of Paheri: ... "Thou shalt have power over water, breathe air, and drink according to the wish of thy heart. THINE EYES shall be given to thee to see, THINE EARS to hear what is said, THY MOUTH speaking, THY FEET walking. THINE ARMS and THY SHOULDERS shall move for thee, THY FLESH shall be firm and THY MUSCLES shall be strong and thou shalt have enjoyment of ALL THY LIMBS. Thou shalt examine THY BODY (which will be) WHOLE and sound, without any evil whatsoever being attached to thee. THY HEART will truly be with thee, THY FORMER HEART will belong to thee. Thou shalt go forth to heaven, thou shalt penetrate the underworld in any form that thou pleasest." - pg.155-156
Anyone who is putting forth this idea of Osiris only "spiritually" resurrecting or resurrecting in the Duat itself, instead of FIRST resurrecting on earth and THEN ascending to heaven and passing over into the Duat, is just rehashing an outdated, debunked 19th century idea.
But just so Zabkar gets more scholarly support on this matter, I will now refer to modern Egyptologist, Bob Brier, most renowned for his work on mummification. He was the first person since the days of ancient Egypt to mummify a human corpse using the authentic Egyptian method of mummification. He is considered by many to be the world's current foremost authority on mummification, and so if ANYONE can speak on the topic of mummification & the funerary ritual and what their purpose was, it is Bob Brier.
From 'Daily Life of the Ancient Egyptians', in reference to the Osirian mythos-
Quote:
No one knows whether this ancient myth gave the Egyptians their first ideas about the hereafter or whether the myth was invented later to explain ideas that already existed. In either case, it contains their most basic beliefs about death; even the box that fit Osiris later became their human-shaped coffin. It demonstrates the Egyptians' MOST IMPORTANT religious belief: RESURRECTION - that a PHYSICAL BODY would literally revive in the next world, just as Osiris was magically reanimated. To gain a perfect eternal life required an INTACT BODY. Isis went to such lengths to retrieve the corpse of her husband for a proper burial because, if she had not pieced together HIS DISMEMBERED BODY - THE VEHICLE FOR ETERNAL LIFE - he could NOT have resurrected. Certain ideas about life after death evolved over time. Originally, immortality was not thought to be parceled out equally: only the pharaoh was assured eternal life, a reasonable assumption given that he alone descended from the gods. It was believed that a non-royal Egyptian's best chance for eternal life was to be buried near his pharaoh's pyramid in hopes that the king would take some commoners with him to the next world. Our earliest writings about resurrection were found on the walls of the royal pyramid of Unas, the last king of the Fifth Dynasty, and include hundreds of magical inscriptions in vertical lines running from ceiling to floor. These hieroglyphic "utterances", referred to as Pyramid Texts, detail THE THREE STAGES of a pharaoh's transition to the next world:
awakening IN THE PYRAMID
One more time
Quote:
awakening IN THE PYRAMID,
ASCENDING through the sky TO the netherworld,
and FINALLY being admitted into the company of the gods.
The principle behind all the spells is the same: the word is deed. Saying something, or having it inscribed on a pyramid wall, made it so. According to these texts, the king's BODY rested in its burial chamber until IT WAS TIME TO TRAVEL THROUGH THE SKY to the next world - somewhere to the west because that was the place where the sun died each day. (Fittingly, Osiris, god of the dead, was called the "Lord of the West" and the dead were referred to as "westerners.") When its journey was complete, a pharaoh's BODY would be welcomed by Osiris to begin its eternal life, an existence that would continue much as it had in this world. A pharaoh would need clothes, furniture, food, and drink, all of which had to be buried with the body. - pg.44-45
So the order of resurrection is that FIRST the body is raised, here, on EARTH, in its TOMB, and THEN it ascends into heaven, traverses the sky with the sun(Ra) to the west where lies the entrance to the Duat, only THEN, AFTER one's physical bodily resurrection here on earth do they enter the Duat. And remember, they were doing all of this in emulation of Osiris.
Brier also states this several times throughout his lecture series for The Teaching Company.
Moreover, there is also the long but hardly thorough list of primary source citations concerning the resurrection of Osiris from just the Pyramid Texts alone that I already posted in another thread, and that was reposted by Tat/Godalmighty earlier in this thread as well, which you goofed up on when you tried to discredit them. That's just from the Pyramid Texts, that's not to mention the plethora of other primary source literature also available in English.
I would say "tag" at this point, but the game was already over before you ever even posted. You lose.
On a side note, to Stuart, saying the Ba is roughly a "spirit" is now an understatement in this day and age. Guys like Budge got away with translating it as such in the 19th century, but it's no longer considered a fair translation, as Zabkar demonstrates in the book I have cited.
Possibly one of the better analogies in our modern culture to the concept of the Ba was given by Egyptologist Edmund S. Meltzer when he said one could probably liken the Ba to the concept of the Daemon in the book/film The Golden Compass.
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Re: Was the New Testament Influenced by Pagan Religions/Jesus has nothing to do with Osiris,Isis, etc
Quote:
Since you were confused by the calendar conversion here is the prophecy of Israel's return based on a single calendar.
Sorry, the link you gave posted two calendars. You must have missed it. It also doesn't say in any quoted passage that the "7x" factor applies to the length of time. All the other problems are there as well.
I knew it was a stretch, but now that I see it laid out, it's pretty sad. There's no connection whatsoever, not even after stretching it. You have to completely abandon all reason to believe the bible speaks of Israel in 1948. But then, when you believe in magic anything is possible.
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Re: Was the New Testament Influenced by Pagan Religions/Jesus has nothing to do with Osiris,Isis, etc
Interbane wrote:
Quote:
Since you were confused by the calendar conversion here is the prophecy of Israel's return based on a single calendar.
Sorry, the link you gave posted two calendars.
Please be specific about the two calendars. What were they and why is there a problem with them? Be specific!!
_________________ “I think one of [James Hoffmeier’s] most important points is that we have unrealistic expectations for what archaeology can offer us as far as ‘proving’ Exodus: ‘After all, what evidence, short of an inscription in a Proto-Canaanite script stating “bricks made by Hebrew slaves” would be considered proof that the Israelites were in Egypt. Archaeology’s ability … is quite limited.’” Jeff Lambert, Editorial Associate, Biblical Archaeological Review. via email January 26, 2010 8:20:58 AM. [email receipiant redacted for privacy reasons. See Thread-The Bible's Buried Secrets for full text.]
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Re: Was the New Testament Influenced by Pagan Religions/Jesus has nothing to do with Osiris,Isis, etc
It's synthetic data, introduced from outside the bible. It's also cherry picking variables to produce the desired outcome. As for the details, the onus is on you. You provide the details, it is your belief that the prophecy is true.
Stahrwe wrote:
= 907,200 days of judgment remained against nation Israel after the Babylonian captivity
Here is a trick question, how many years is 907,200 days? The Earth will travel around the sun approximately 2,484 times. Each time the Earth travels around the sun is a year. Do the math yourself, and you'll see that the "days of judgment" remaining equals 2,484 years. So why does the quote you provided mention a different number to start with?
Quote:
360 Remaining years of judgment x 7 The prophetic '7X' factor = 2,520 Years of judgment remained against nation Israel
The 2,520 was arrived at by multiplying 360 days of the jewish calendar by the "7x factor". Not mentioned is the omission of the "leap months" that must be added when calculating years in the jewish calendar. That is why there are two different numbers of years mentioned... because two different calendars are used, and one is misused.
Quote:
The Jewish calendar uses a 360 day lunar (and prophetic) year and then adds a 'Leap Month' on specific years to accurately coincide with the Solar cycle we use on our 'Julian' calendar ...
Notice the bolded portion. Whoever originally picked these cherries failed to add the leap months to the calculation. That is why two different numbers of "years of god's judgment" remained.
What blinders do you wear to not see these issues immediately? The only thing addressed here is the problem with the calendars, the first on a long list. At the end of the long list of problems is the brick wall of ruling out coincidence. I'm not being stubborn Stahrwe, I'm trying to tell you the truth as I see it.
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Re: Was the New Testament Influenced by Pagan Religions/Jesus has nothing to do with Osiris,Isis, etc
This ezekiel zionist spam is like a malignant tumor - it has metastatised to here from the Finkelstein thread. Hopefully it can be put down with some vigorous chemo.
You could better argue the 666 is Israel Jewish Nation or United States Dollar. It is all about having a moral theory in the first place and then manipulating Bible texts to justify the desired outcome. With the Zionist line, the sole aim is to legitimise the 1948 Nakba by claiming it is the will of God.
Saying that the 'times seven' from Leviticus applies to only 360 years and not to the full 430 years in the Ezekiel text, and then manipulating the resulting number against the days in a year, shows that it is utterly ridiculous to suppose that Ezekiel predicted the Nakba would occur in 1948. It is the most absurd case of people coming along after the event and rigging the data with 20-20 hindsight to suggest their desired political outcome was preordained.
But what did Stahrwe's source call it?
Fundie wrote:
"one of the most fascinating and remarkable prophecies in the Bible ... how precisely this prophecy has been fulfilled after 2,500 years ... promises and warnings concerning both Heaven and Hell will be fulfilled just as accurately and literally as the amazing prophecy presented here.
At least they are right about one thing, fundie ideas about heaven and hell are 'fulfilled just as accurately' as this rubbish, having exactly zero accuracy.
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