Was Jesus as described in the bible a jerk?

Frank 013

I was reading through the quotes of Jesus after looking at the “Why won’t god heal amputees” website and saw a section that makes a good claim that Jesus as described by the bible would be considered a jerk by today’s standards.

I will offer up the evidence and let you decide.

Jerk:

1. an offensive term for somebody who is regarded as behaving foolishly.
2. a "foolish, rude, or contemptible person"

A hypocrite would certainly be described as a jerk so what about the so called perfect, sinless Jesus?

"You have heard that it was said, 'Love your neighbor and hate your enemy.' But I tell you: Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, that you may be sons of your Father in heaven."

He reiterates the message in Luke 6:26:

"But I tell you who hear me: Love your enemies, do good to those who hate you, bless those who curse you, pray for those who mistreat you.

It is clear here that Jesus teaches us to love our enemies but how does he react to people who dislike him?

"Go into all the world and preach the good news to all creation. Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned” (To hell I presume.)

Is this love of ones enemies? Heck you don’t even have to be a real enemy, just don’t accept Jesus as your lord and an eternity of fiery damnation awaits. That’s Jesus' love for ya!

This type of hypocrisy goes way beyond jerk if you ask me.

If that’s not good enough there is plenty more; a person who breaks their promise is a jerk. Lets see how Jesus handles this one…

Mark 11:24:

Therefore I tell you, whatever you ask for in prayer, believe that you have received it, and it will be yours.

In John chapter 14, verses 12 through 14 we see the same thing:

I tell you the truth, anyone who has faith in me will do what I have been doing. He will do even greater things than these, because I am going to the Father. And I will do whatever you ask in my name, so that the Son may bring glory to the Father. You may ask me for anything in my name, and I will do it.

When someone says that they will give you whatever you ask for, giving the benefit of the doubt I would assume it to be limited by their means. But what are the limitations of god? If they are truly none, as Christians say, Jesus/god is going back on his word, hence he is a jerk.

How about lying or telling untrue stories? These are clearly jerk qualities right? Certainly Jesus is above giving false testimony as written in the commandments.

Well maybe not…

Again, the devil took him to a very high mountain and showed him all the kingdoms of the world and their splendor.

Wow! Considering that this is only possible on a flat earth this is obviously made up and untrue, again Jesus falls clearly into the jerk category.

How about bigotry? Surly a loving sinless being would not fall victim to such a primitive ignorant position?

A Canaanite woman from that vicinity came to him, crying out, "Lord, Son of David, have mercy on me! My daughter is suffering terribly from demon-possession." Jesus did not answer a word. So his disciples came to him and urged him, "Send her away, for she keeps crying out after us." He answered, "I was sent only to the lost sheep of Israel." The woman came and knelt before him. "Lord, help me!" she said. He replied, "It is not right to take the children's bread and toss it to their dogs."

Jesus calls this woman a dog because she is a Canaanite; clearly this is a bigoted statement. now in Jesus’ defense he did eventually help this woman but that does not negate his initial negative response.

Any person of attention today that made such a statement would certainly be heavily scrutinized for the remark just look at Mel Gibson.

So Jesus fails the bigotry test as well… the jerk.

This type of thing goes on and on he “borrows” stuff without returning it, he has child like emotional outbursts, he kills a tree for not having fruit out of season (This one is the most jerk like in my opinion), and he contradicts himself over and over again regarding the requirements for getting into heaven. Even going so far as to say that believers must eat human flesh to get into heaven.

Jesus said to them, "I tell you the truth, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you. Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day. For my flesh is real food and my blood is real drink. Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood remains in me, and I in him. Just as the living Father sent me and I live because of the Father, so the one who feeds on me will live because of me. This is the bread that came down from heaven. Your forefathers ate manna and died, but he who feeds on this bread will live forever."

This act is (thankfully) being performed with bread and wine (sometimes grape juice) but it sounds more like a satanic ritual than a Christian one.

Finally a misuse of power is very jerk like; Jesus could have done beautiful permanently helpful miraculous deeds. Instead he squandered his powers on healing people one at a time, turning water into wine. He could have cured disease, ended suffering of all sorts heck he could have ended much of the suffering caused by slavery just by using words alone. One clear passage from Jesus saying something like “free all slaves” or “slavery is forbidden in the eyes of the lord” would have saved millions from such a terrible fate.

With all of the above material it is clear (in my opinion) that if Jesus lived and did any of these things he was indeed a first class jerk.

Why anyone who acted like this would be revered and used as a roll model is beyond me.

But I will leave you to your own conclusions.

Later

MadArchitect

Hard-hitting stuff, this.

MaesterAuron151

The gospels were written a while after Jesus died.

I'm not going to bother with a point by point rebuttle because Dissident Heart will eventually show up and totally out do me.

Just as a note condemned doesn't necessaryily mean to hell.

There are four different places a person can go to three of which you could be "condemned to", there is heaven and hell of course, but there is also purgatory in which people supposedly repent for the sins of their lives (although acording to dante its restricted for believers) and also Lymbo which is a seven walled city for the virtous nonbelievers, its not a hellish place just somewhat sad and a little booring.

Edited by: MaesterAuron151 at: 1/13/07 4:07 pm

Frank 013

MaesterAuron

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The gospels were written a while after Jesus died.

I am not discussing their accuracy here (believe me we could dedicate a whole other book on the subject of inaccuracies) just weather the Jesus character is a Jerk as written.

MaesterAuron

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I'm not going to bother with a point by point rebuttal because Dissident Heart will eventually show up and totally out do me.

I would very much like to see what DH has to say on the subject, but I would like to hear your ideas here as well.

MaesterAuron

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Just as a note condemned doesn't necessarily mean to hell.

There are four different places a person can go to three of which you could be "condemned to", there is heaven and hell of course, but there is also purgatory in which people supposedly repent for the sins of their lives (although according to Dante its restricted for believers) and also Limbo which is a seven walled city for the virtuous nonbelievers, its not a hellish place just somewhat sad and a little boring.

The Dante’s inferno reference is not accurate either historically or is it accepted as Christian cannon.

The historic problem is that the book Dante’s Inferno was written in the renaissance and I seriously doubt that Jesus was making reference to it furthermore It was written as a fiction book.

But even if Jesus wasn’t talking about hell, isn't it still hypocritical to condemn someone to anything boring unpleasant or hellish, after teaching love your enemies and forgive all transgressions?

Later

Edited by: Frank 013 at: 1/14/07 1:26 am

Mr. Pessimistic

I mean, we do not even have to go past Mad's comments to see how silly you were to post this Frank.

I am continually amazed at how Mad can total turn things around just by stating one simple phrase. I mean, I thought the bible was a bunch of out-dated crap, full of moral inconsistancies and misogynistic, racist crap, but now I see the light.

Thanks Mad.

Mr. P.
(never pay attention to what it says...never pay attention to what it says...never pay attention......)

Mr. P's place. I warned you!!!

Mr. P's Bookshelf.

I'm not saying it's usual for people to do those things but I(with the permission of God) have raised a dog from the dead and healed many people from all sorts of ailments. - Asana

The one thing of which I am positive is that there is much of which to be negative - Mr. P.

The pain in hell has two sides. The kind you can touch with your hand; the kind you can feel in your heart...Scorsese's "Mean Streets"

I came to kick ass and chew Bubble Gum...and I am all out of Bubble Gum - They Live, Roddy Piper

Frank 013

Mr. P

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I am continually amazed at how Mad can total turn things around just by stating one simple phrase. I mean, I thought the bible was a bunch of out-dated crap, full of moral inconsistencies and misogynistic, racist crap, but now I see the light.

Ahhh more sarcasm :lol

I do think you might have misread Mad here, I do not presume to put words in his mouth but he does not believe that stuff any more than we do. But unlike us he just does not see any harm in believing it.

Considering the short response I think I might have made him think… Maybe?

Later

Mr. Pessimistic

Mad has offered defense for the bible in the past. I just want to know what I am missing by not being a biblical scholar! I keep hearing that phrase...

Although, after reading the Dawkins book, I am considering raising the bible discussion from the dead (still born as it was)...but I am not sure I want Mad, Dissident or any of the other thiests picking and choosing the readings. I am not even totally sure I want to waste my time at all actually...but I am thinking about it. I even pulled out my bible yesterday.

Basically, I would like someone to answer my post in the Dawkins forum: what about the incest and giving away of daughters for gang bang sex to avoid confilct (oops! There I go using aggressive, inconsiderate words again...maybe I should say "Offering my young daughter to the pleasures of others" there, that makes it better).

Mr. P.

Mr. P's place. I warned you!!!

Mr. P's Bookshelf.

I'm not saying it's usual for people to do those things but I(with the permission of God) have raised a dog from the dead and healed many people from all sorts of ailments. - Asana

The one thing of which I am positive is that there is much of which to be negative - Mr. P.

The pain in hell has two sides. The kind you can touch with your hand; the kind you can feel in your heart...Scorsese's "Mean Streets"

I came to kick ass and chew Bubble Gum...and I am all out of Bubble Gum - They Live, Roddy Piper

Edited by: misterpessimistic at: 1/14/07 8:11 pm

Frank 013

Mr. P

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What about the incest and giving away of daughters for gang bang sex to avoid conflict (oops! There I go using aggressive, inconsiderate words again...maybe I should say "Offering my young daughter to the pleasures of others" there, that makes it better).

I think that’s where you and I disagree with most Christians, there is no making it better; the bible is a horrid book. The hard part is getting Christians to see that fact.

Later

MaesterAuron151

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I am not discussing their accuracy here (believe me we could dedicate a whole other book on the subject of inaccuracies) just weather the Jesus character is a Jerk as written.

Are you taking into account different authors even?

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I would very much like to see what DH has to say on the subject, but I would like to hear your ideas here as well.

Well alright. I imagine DH's response will just be a much better and more accurate version of mine.

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The Dante’s inferno reference is not accurate either historically or is it accepted as Christian cannon.

Purgatory and lymbo are definitely christian concepts though.

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The historic problem is that the book Dante’s Inferno was written in the renaissance and I seriously doubt that Jesus was making reference to it furthermore It was written as a fiction book.

Fiction always is based off of some form of truth. Humans lack the ability to create something truely unique. Everything we do merely rearranges what's already there.

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But even if Jesus wasn’t talking about hell, isn't it still hypocritical to condemn someone to anything boring unpleasant or hellish, after teaching love your enemies and forgive all transgressions?

You can hurt people even if you love them. Parents punish children they love don't they? Love does not equate never doing harm. One of the points of the whole Jesus thing was to allow forgivness for the deceased. The Bible clearly states that Jesus decended into hell in order to free condemned souls.

MaesterAuron151

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If that’s not good enough there is plenty more; a person who breaks their promise is a jerk. Lets see how Jesus handles this one…

Mark 11:24:

Therefore I tell you, whatever you ask for in prayer, believe that you have received it, and it will be yours.

Are we sure this isn't followed by a but? It doesn't specify when, you could receive most of these rewards postumously.

Quote:
In John chapter 14, verses 12 through 14 we see the same thing:

I tell you the truth, anyone who has faith in me will do what I have been doing. He will do even greater things than these, because I am going to the Father. And I will do whatever you ask in my name, so that the Son may bring glory to the Father. You may ask me for anything in my name, and I will do it.

I doubt this really means what it says. I assume there's more in the passage. This is one of the ones DH needs to go over my knowledge is just too limited.

The best I can do is mention that the bible also forbids putting god to the test.

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How about lying or telling untrue stories? These are clearly jerk qualities right? Certainly Jesus is above giving false testimony as written in the commandments.

Well maybe not…

Again, the devil took him to a very high mountain and showed him all the kingdoms of the world and their splendor.

Wow! Considering that this is only possible on a flat earth this is obviously made up and untrue, again Jesus falls clearly into the jerk category.

I thought we were remaining within the confines of the bible. In the bible the world is flat.

Or we could just mention that there's no mention of jesus haveing superior knowledge of geography. If an ancient person was shown the view of the land from the top of a high mountain, then told he was looking upon the whole world, I doubt he'd argue otherwise.

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How about bigotry? Surly a loving sinless being would not fall victim to such a primitive ignorant position?

A Canaanite woman from that vicinity came to him, crying out, "Lord, Son of David, have mercy on me! My daughter is suffering terribly from demon-possession." Jesus did not answer a word. So his disciples came to him and urged him, "Send her away, for she keeps crying out after us." He answered, "I was sent only to the lost sheep of Israel." The woman came and knelt before him. "Lord, help me!" she said. He replied, "It is not right to take the children's bread and toss it to their dogs."

That directly contradicts the theme of other passages. A vast amount of the bible involves Jesus helping and fratronizing with all sorts of "sinfull people" including Roman tax collectors, leppers, the blind. Plus there's the story of the good samaraton. As for bigotted statements, you have one. I think we can discount this as some medieval skin head type trying to justify some recent war.

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Jesus calls this woman a dog because she is a Canaanite; clearly this is a bigoted statement. now in Jesus’ defense he did eventually help this woman but that does not negate his initial negative response.

Actually he uses dog as an analogy.

Any person of attention today that made such a statement would certainly be heavily scrutinized for the remark just look at Mel Gibson.

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This type of thing goes on and on he “borrows” stuff without returning it, he has child like emotional outbursts, he kills a tree for not having fruit out of season (This one is the most jerk like in my opinion),

Thats odd since there's the story of the tree that bore no fruit?

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and he contradicts himself over and over again regarding the requirements for getting into heaven. Even going so far as to say that believers must eat human flesh to get into heaven.

Are you reffering to the body of christ ritual? No believers must eat a little circular waffer to get into heaven.

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Jesus said to them, "I tell you the truth, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you. Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day. For my flesh is real food and my blood is real drink. Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood remains in me, and I in him. Just as the living Father sent me and I live because of the Father, so the one who feeds on me will live because of me. This is the bread that came down from heaven. Your forefathers ate manna and died, but he who feeds on this bread will live forever."

This act is (thankfully) being performed with bread and wine (sometimes grape juice) but it sounds more like a satanic ritual than a Christian one.

Are you for real. First off there is no such thing as a legit satanist. Second its not saying you have to eat any human flesh its talking about just his. Third its blatantly a symbolic statement.

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Finally a misuse of power is very jerk like; Jesus could have done beautiful permanently helpful miraculous deeds. Instead he squandered his powers on healing people one at a time, turning water into wine. He could have cured disease, ended suffering of all sorts heck he could have ended much of the suffering caused by slavery just by using words alone. One clear passage from Jesus saying something like “free all slaves” or “slavery is forbidden in the eyes of the lord” would have saved millions from such a terrible fate.

That goes into our exessive divine intervention discussion.

Frank 013

Lets clear up the rules right now, we (for this conversation) are going to assume Jesus was real and did everything as written and that the bible was divinely inspired.

This is the common Christian stance here in America.

So using the aforementioned criteria would Jesus be a jerk?

MeasterAuron

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Are we sure this isn't followed by a but?

Yep.

MeasterAuron

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It doesn't specify when, you could receive most of these rewards posthumously.

This is of course a common Christian rationalization, has Jesus let you down so often that you need to rationalize his words for him?

MeasterAuron

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I doubt this really means what it says. I assume there's more in the passage. This is one of the ones DH needs to go over my knowledge is just too limited.

It seems pretty clear to me.

MeasterAuron

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The best I can do is mention that the bible also forbids putting god to the test.

So Christ and the bible contradict themselves, every prayer is a test, but it does indeed say both god will answer your prayers and you must not put god to the test.

MeasterAuron

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I thought we were remaining within the confines of the bible. In the bible the world is flat.

So the bible errs here, why would we assume that Jesus, lord god would be so ignorant? being all knowing and so forth.

MeasterAuron

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Or we could just mention that there's no mention of Jesus having superior knowledge of geography.

He’s god, he said so himself right in the bible, he should have known everything.

MeasterAuron

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That directly contradicts the theme of other passages. A vast amount of the bible involves Jesus helping and fraternizing with all sorts of "sinful people" including Roman tax collectors, lepers, and the blind. Plus there's the story of the good samaraton. As for bigoted statements, you have one. I think we can discount this as some medieval skin head type trying to justify some recent war.

Were not talking about where the writings come from.

As written is it a bigoted statement and should Jesus as written in the bible be considered a good roll model or was he a jerk?

MeasterAuron

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Actually he uses dog as an analogy.

Right, he thought of her as less than human because she was a Canaanite and equated her worth as that of a dogs.

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That’s odd since there's the story of the tree that bore no fruit?

I’m only familiar with the biblical verses not other Christian stories. But I will get the quote for you.

Mark 11:12-14 yet another juvenile reaction:

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The next day as they were leaving Bethany, Jesus was hungry. Seeing in the distance a fig tree in leaf, he went to find out if it had any fruit. When he reached it, he found nothing but leaves, because it was not the season for figs. Then he said to the tree, "May no one ever eat fruit from you again." And his disciples heard him say it.

Later we learn that the tree is dead.

MeasterAuron

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Are you referring to the body of Christ ritual? No, believers must eat a little circular wafer to get into heaven.

That’s not what it says.

MeasterAuron

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Are you for real? First off there is no such thing as a legit Satanist.

Sure there are, they have a satanic bible and everything.

MeasterAuron

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Second it’s not saying you have to eat any human flesh it’s talking about just his.

That’s bad enough, is there enough to go around?

MeasterAuron

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Third it’s blatantly a symbolic statement.

To us it is now, but imagine what an impartial observer might think, also at the time written human sacrifice was common, I think at the time of its writing that it had a very different meaning, in fact Christians say that Jesus was the human sacrifice needed to appease god.

Here is a look at other biblical sacrificial horrors…

God

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10 " 'If the offering is a burnt offering from the flock, from either the sheep or the goats, he is to offer a male without defect. 11 He is to slaughter it at the north side of the altar before the LORD, and Aaron's sons the priests shall sprinkle its blood against the altar on all sides. 12 He is to cut it into pieces, and the priest shall arrange them, including the head and the fat, on the burning wood that is on the altar. 13 He is to wash the inner parts and the legs with water, and the priest is to bring all of it and burn it on the altar. It is a burnt offering, an offering made by fire, an aroma pleasing to the LORD. 14 " 'If the offering to the LORD is a burnt offering of birds, he is to offer a dove or a young pigeon. 15 The priest shall bring it to the altar, wring off the head and burn it on the altar; its blood shall be drained out on the side of the altar. 16 He is to remove the crop with its contents b and throw it to the east side of the altar, where the ashes are. 17 He shall tear it open by the wings, not severing it completely, and then the priest shall burn it on the wood that is on the fire on the altar.

It is a burnt offering, an offering made by fire, an aroma pleasing to the LORD."

Either way, as written, is it something that should be taught in modern society or is it horrid?

MeasterAuron

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That goes into our excessive divine intervention discussion.

What about changing future events by using verses in the bible, my slavery example is a good choice.

How would that mess up free will?

Later

MaesterAuron151 · Posted: Wed Jan 17, 2007 10:12 am Post subject: Re: Belief

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Here is the problem as I see it, where are these other interpretations coming from? What assumptions are made before an interpretation is made. We know that the bible is flat out wrong in many places so to assume Jesus is god and then try to assign a noble motivation to his actions would yield a FALSE interpretation.

You are basing your description of the Jesus character off of a book that does not support your description.

Now lets pretend for a moment that the gospels actually have hundreds of pages with lots of different messages and stories. If a great many of those messages don't fit with the one's you're talking about, the one's you're talking about require interpritation and study to determine if they are perhaps metaphorical.

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I agree, but so many people do.

If you agree then why are you insisting that by taking Jesus' actions at face value you can prove that Jesus was a douch bag?

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Really, or was he just written that way? Did he even really exist? Who were the authors of the bible? How do you know anything about the real Jesus assuming there was one?

Thats completely off the topic remember we're staying within the confines of the bible here as best we can per your requests.

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Read the passage… “The next day as they were leaving Bethany, Jesus was hungry. Seeing in the distance a fig tree in leaf, he went to find out if it had any fruit.”

There is no mention of a temple or any other motivation for approaching the tree other than hunger.

Ok now ask yourself, why would there be mention of such a trivial and pointless event? I still suspect that this is a symbolic act. Like DH said the fig was significant as a fruit used for sacrifice in the jewish temple. One of the key points of the whole Jesus story was that he was setting the old Jewish order strait after it had lost its way.

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And what do you base that conclusion on? Not the scripture. Could it be that you are thinking that Jesus wouldn’t do something nasty like that? And now you must rationalize his actions by making a guess as to his real intentions.

This is no guess. Jesus as described in the bible does use parables a lot. He makes symbolic acts as well. Also Jesus as described in the bible goes against acts of bigotry a lot in his teachings actions and general nature. This one passage doesn't comply with the others so I must assume there's an alternative meaning behind it.

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But what if Jesus was like that? That is what the book supports, and since that is your only source for a description of the character how do you conclude otherwise?

Well yeah if you ignore all the other passages. Rember there are many more passages in the bible then the ones you cited. You are focusing on the apparent negatives and in many cases these negatives apear to be metaphors.

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What if Jesus was totally made up and the person who wrote that particular passage was a bigot?

Well then its kinda odd that he'd write it so Jesus' bigoted statement gets completely countered by the person he's treating with bigotry.

Ancient buddhist saying

"we do not see the world as it is, we see the world as we are"

You read the passage of the caananite woman and see Jesus as being a terrible person. This supports your world view, not only is religeon wrong IYO but its leaders are corrupt.

I read it and I see the statement "Anyone can be wrong" which rejects dogmatism. A concept key to my world view.


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