Online reading group and book discussion forum
  HOME FORUMS OUR BOOKS LINKS DONATE ADVERTISE CONTACT  
View unanswered posts | View active topics It is currently Fri Feb 12, 2016 7:06 am

<< Week of February 12, 2016 >>
Friday Saturday Sunday Monday Tuesday Wednesday Thursday
12 Day Month

13 Day Month

14 Day Month

15 Day Month

16 Day Month

17 Day Month

18 Day Month





Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 25 posts ] • Topic evaluate: Evaluations: 0, 0.00 on the average.Evaluations: 0, 0.00 on the average.Evaluations: 0, 0.00 on the average.Evaluations: 0, 0.00 on the average.Evaluations: 0, 0.00 on the average.  Go to page 1, 2  Next
VII- HD: colonialism at work. 
Author Message
User avatar
Years of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membership
Oddly Attracted to Books

Gold Contributor

Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 1543
Location: France
Thanks: 0
Thanked: 33 times in 33 posts
Gender: Female
Country: France (fr)

Post VII- HD: colonialism at work.
VII- Colonialism at work:

1- The description of the first Africans Marlow meets.





- the chained men " A slight clinking behind me..." page 19, to "deathly indifference of unhappy savages".



- the dying workers: "Black shapes crouched ...(p 20) "they were dying slowly" page 21.



How does the narrator portray the Africans in these two examples?

Does he feel any compassion?


2- The "pilgrims".

Who are those "pilgrims" Marlow mentions now and then?

Why does he call them pilgrims?


3- The arrival of the "Eldorado Exploring Expedition".


What do you think of the name of the Expedition?


_________________
Ophelia.


Sun Feb 03, 2008 1:51 pm
Profile
Years of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membership
BookTalk.org Hall of Fame

Platinum Contributor

Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 5396
Location: Berryville, Virginia
Thanks: 1300
Thanked: 1332 times in 1039 posts
Gender: Male
Country: United States (us)

Post 
This was a powerful passage in the novella. Marlow is no moral crusader; he has certain ideas about the difference in humanity between the Africans and himself, and he is a person with a job to do. But he does clearly see the brutality of the European operation and is disgusted by it. He offers one of the dying men a biscuit; he is "horror-struck." Even though these might be a different species of men, they are still "men, I tell you."

The pilgrims I take it are traders who are hanging around hoping for a piece of the action. I'm not sure what their "staves" are, but Marlow certainly views these pilgrims with barely disguised contempt. "Pilgrim" appears to be an entirely ironic term, as their real mission has nothing to do with any spiritual or higher mission.



Thu Feb 28, 2008 8:33 am
Profile
User avatar
Years of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membership
The Unbound and Learned

Gold Contributor

Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 3158
Location: Cheshire, England
Thanks: 311
Thanked: 595 times in 456 posts
Gender: Female
Country: United Kingdom (uk)

Post 
The Africans - chains clinking behind him- shadowy figures, dying slowly..the old Africa....perhaps

The were not a threat.....to Marlow's eyes they were shadows of the past system. 'But they were still Men' - He says this like a revelation!!

To the explorers and plunderers - the Africans were just a nuisance....like the Jews in Germany were a nuisance to Hitler's plans - so he called them 'Dogs'. In Brazil now, there a children who live in the sewers and scavenge and they call them 'Rats' (this issue is being addressed - I understand). When we start to call groups of people by the names of animals it is always a warning sign. But Marlow realises, 'they were Men'.

The Pilgrims - even today a 'foot' pilgrim in Europe still carries a staff. If. you visit Santiago Di Compostella in Northern Spain - you can still see pilgrims with staffs who have walked across Europe, through Avignon in France. I like to visit places of pilgrimage myself - but I don't walk all the way.

Eldorado - means Land of Gold - which says it all really - Pilgrims are not meant to be seeking Gold......

Shades of 'The American Dream' here......as in 'The Great Gatsby' I think.



Thu Feb 28, 2008 5:10 pm
Profile
User avatar
Years of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membership
Oddly Attracted to Books

Gold Contributor

Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 1543
Location: France
Thanks: 0
Thanked: 33 times in 33 posts
Gender: Female
Country: France (fr)

Post 
Penelope wrote:

Quote:
To the explorers and plunderers - the Africans were just a nuisance....like the Jews in Germany were a nuisance to Hitler's plans - so he called them 'Dogs'. In Brazil now, there a children who live in the sewers and scavenge and they call them 'Rats' (this issue is being addressed - I understand). When we start to call groups of people by the names of animals it is always a warning sign. But Marlow realises, 'they were Men'.


So true.
During the genocide in Rwanda the Hutus de-humanized the Tootsies by calling them "cockroaches".


_________________
Ophelia.


Thu Feb 28, 2008 5:28 pm
Profile
Years of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membership
BookTalk.org Hall of Fame

Platinum Contributor

Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 5396
Location: Berryville, Virginia
Thanks: 1300
Thanked: 1332 times in 1039 posts
Gender: Male
Country: United States (us)

Post 
Penelope wrote:
.

Shades of 'The American Dream' here......as in 'The Great Gatsby' I think.


I had a flash of Gatsby , too, at one point. Marlow says that all Europe seemed to have come together in Kurtz, and I remember something similar said about Gatsby in terms of America. You are right, I think, that the Africans' being men, after all, is a revelation to Marlow. I can imagine his audience on the ship thinking to themselves, "Why is he so worked up about a bunch of n*****s.?"



Fri Feb 29, 2008 10:58 am
Profile
User avatar
Years of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membership
The Unbound and Learned

Gold Contributor

Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 3158
Location: Cheshire, England
Thanks: 311
Thanked: 595 times in 456 posts
Gender: Female
Country: United Kingdom (uk)

Post 
Of course, when you get to know an individual of any race....as a friend, you forget that their skin is a different colour.

I had a friend some years ago who was just about as black in colour as they come......and when I first met him I thought....oooooh. But when I got to know him I honestly forgot that he was a different colour. He did have a strong Lancashire accent.....and was very funny, and he was just Eddie to me.

The trouble is, the Asians tend to live all together in one place and take themselves very seriously......(some of them) and we think they should live and behave like us.....they look at our society and don't want to be like us....and I don't blame them in many ways.

But it does cause friction because some of us think 'when in Rome'. When they stick together and don't mix, we get offended, and they get offended because we are offended. :shock: It is such a shame. It isn't just about colour though because we have quite a bit of predjudice here against the Eastern Europeans now.

I think it is just fear of what we don't understand.



Fri Feb 29, 2008 3:52 pm
Profile
Years of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membership
BookTalk.org Hall of Fame

Platinum Contributor

Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 5396
Location: Berryville, Virginia
Thanks: 1300
Thanked: 1332 times in 1039 posts
Gender: Male
Country: United States (us)

Post 
We talk about the assimilationist ethic in the U.S., how supposedly it is greater than what operates in Europe/UK. One thing that so upsets people here is the preference ethnic groups appear to show for not "blending in" as much as groups did in the past. The melting pot is sometimes mocked now by multiculturists, but I have to say that I still believe that national identity should be maintained and should supercede whatever ethnic affiliation we also want to maintain.



Fri Feb 29, 2008 5:33 pm
Profile
User avatar
Years of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membership
The Unbound and Learned

Gold Contributor

Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 3158
Location: Cheshire, England
Thanks: 311
Thanked: 595 times in 456 posts
Gender: Female
Country: United Kingdom (uk)

Post 
Right DWill.....this is me being racist....but honest....and with great affection.....

Those Asians.....they are a bit of a nuisance in that.....they don't dispose of their rubbish correctly.....Well they don't have refuse collections in India....because they don't have that much refuse....they use everything.

They paint their houses....in the most lurid colours....not with quiet good taste....as we were taught.......because colour is very important to the Asian people.......it cheers them up!!!

And for such trivial reasons.....we condemn them and alienate them.... because they don't do things the way we do......and thus...there is hatred and alienation.....and those who seek to divide us.....have a potentially powerful tool. And I believe, unfortunately, that there are those on both sides who seek to divide....and weaken.

Ophelia....knows more about this than I do.....read her Journal.



Fri Feb 29, 2008 5:56 pm
Profile
User avatar
Years of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membership
Oddly Attracted to Books

Gold Contributor

Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 1543
Location: France
Thanks: 0
Thanked: 33 times in 33 posts
Gender: Female
Country: France (fr)

Post 
For a while "communautarism" on the British model was admired in France because the "assimilation " model was not working here and there was a debate whether we would want communautarism.

Now it is felt that the British system hasn't worked either because students can be "brainwashed" in their madrassas, and apparently in polls Asians answer that they are Muslim first, an British second", which would not be felt to be acceptable in France.

So no more British model here for the moment.


_________________
Ophelia.


Last edited by Ophelia on Sat Mar 01, 2008 1:36 pm, edited 2 times in total.



Sat Mar 01, 2008 12:00 am
Profile
User avatar
Years of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membership
The Unbound and Learned

Gold Contributor

Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 3158
Location: Cheshire, England
Thanks: 311
Thanked: 595 times in 456 posts
Gender: Female
Country: United Kingdom (uk)

Post 
Ophelia said:

Quote:
So no more British model here for the moment.


I agree Ophelia....there is a lot to be said for living in England but our Race Relations is not one of them.......



Sat Mar 01, 2008 1:32 pm
Profile
User avatar
Years of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membership
Oddly Attracted to Books

Gold Contributor

Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 1543
Location: France
Thanks: 0
Thanked: 33 times in 33 posts
Gender: Female
Country: France (fr)

Post 
Hi Penelope,

Sometimes I type too quickly, my posting above was full of mistakes; the poll was "Muslim first" of course, not "Asian".


_________________
Ophelia.


Sat Mar 01, 2008 1:38 pm
Profile
User avatar
Years of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membership
The Unbound and Learned

Gold Contributor

Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 3158
Location: Cheshire, England
Thanks: 311
Thanked: 595 times in 456 posts
Gender: Female
Country: United Kingdom (uk)

Post 
Well of course they would say Muslim first.....that is the dogma of their faith.....

But Muslims, like Christians - have different factions and points of view within their own faiths- one Christian point of view can be diametrically opposite to anothers in many cases, and the same goes for Islam, take Salman Rushdie as an instance.

It is just the fundamentalism that is impossible to take.....I can't stand fundamentalism in any shape or form.....Religious or Political......with the 'certainty' comes the 'inquisition' in my experience.

I'm all for a bit of woolley-minded liberal thinking.....



Sat Mar 01, 2008 1:50 pm
Profile
User avatar
Years of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membership
Oddly Attracted to Books

Gold Contributor

Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 1543
Location: France
Thanks: 0
Thanked: 33 times in 33 posts
Gender: Female
Country: France (fr)

Post cartoons
A blogger at Le Monde newspaper has published some interesting cartoons about the colonial past of four European countries: take your pick!

http://jcdurbant.blog.lemonde.fr/2006/09/17/2006_09_falsifier_lhist/


_________________
Ophelia.


Tue Mar 04, 2008 6:57 pm
Profile
Years of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membership
BookTalk.org Hall of Fame

Platinum Contributor

Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 5396
Location: Berryville, Virginia
Thanks: 1300
Thanked: 1332 times in 1039 posts
Gender: Male
Country: United States (us)

Post 
Penelope,
Yes, it does seem to be true that certainty and conviction in matters of religion turn out to be destructive in one way or another. I wonder why this is, because certainty & conviction seem to be good things when not coupled with religion. I'm all for watered-down faith, too, if faith must exist. But that is anathema to believers, of course.
Will



Tue Mar 04, 2008 8:48 pm
Profile
User avatar
Years of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membership
The Unbound and Learned

Gold Contributor

Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 3158
Location: Cheshire, England
Thanks: 311
Thanked: 595 times in 456 posts
Gender: Female
Country: United Kingdom (uk)

Post 
DWill - The fundamentalist/evangelical faiths insist on absolute conviction.

Fortunately, you can attend the Church of England if you don't believe in God at all. No one will challenge you, but you have to stand up and say the creed......which feels dreadful, if like me, you absolutely believe in God, but don't believe the dogma, or what I call the bllsht.

Still, I am sure it is what we 'do'.....not what we 'say' that counts.



Wed Mar 05, 2008 12:11 pm
Profile
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 25 posts ] • Topic evaluate: Evaluations: 0, 0.00 on the average.Evaluations: 0, 0.00 on the average.Evaluations: 0, 0.00 on the average.Evaluations: 0, 0.00 on the average.Evaluations: 0, 0.00 on the average.  Go to page 1, 2  Next



Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 0 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:



Site Links 
Forum Rules & Tips
Frequently Asked Questions
BBCode Explained
Info for Authors & Publishers
Author Interview Transcripts
Be a Book Discussion Leader!
    

Love to talk about books but don't have time for our book discussion forums? For casual book talk join us on Facebook.

Featured Books

Books by New Authors

Booktalk.org on Facebook 


F.A.C.T.S. 
FACTS: Freethought - Atheism - Critical Thinking - Science






BookTalk.org is a free book discussion group or online reading group or book club. We read and talk about both fiction and non-fiction books as a group. We host live author chats where booktalk members can interact with and interview authors. We give away free books to our members in book giveaway contests. Our booktalks are open to everybody who enjoys talking about books. Our book forums include book reviews, author interviews and book resources for readers and book lovers. Discussing books is our passion. We're a literature forum, or reading forum. Register a free book club account today! Suggest nonfiction and fiction books. Authors and publishers are welcome to advertise their books or ask for an author chat or author interview.



Copyright © BookTalk.org 2002-2016. All rights reserved.
Display Pagerank