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Posted: Thu Jan 08, 2009 3:22 pm
by Dissident Heart
Gentle: The notion that God would put a person like Jesus through torture and crucifixion intentionally to save people who had no further moral responsibility themselves except to believe his blood would wash their sins clean and everyone else would burn eternally, left me wanting to do the cosmic civil disobedience of going to hell rather than letting such cruelty and injustice support me in bliss in heaven. How could any decent person feel bliss while others were being burned forever?

When I confront the crucifixion (and confrontation is the correct term...there is no dispassionate or detached way to simply analyze, inspect or consider such brutality) I am always reminded of the terrors that actually and really plague human existence...not imaginary, mythic or merely religious concoctions...but factual abuses that wound real people in actual locations at certain times...genuine wounds that bleed real blood and cause real suffering....Jesus crucified is a graphic mirror of the horror that fills our world.

Jesus crucified also stings my own conscience, forcing me to consider how I have and am currently supporting the crucifixtions of others: in this sense it becomes a symbolic accusation and metaphorical challenge to admit to where my actions (or inaction) lends power to the torture and wounding of others...what is my part in the terrible injustices and cruelties that fill the contemporary landscape...again, not imagined or mythic wounds- but actual bodies in real places suffering in real ways?

Posted: Thu Jan 08, 2009 9:48 pm
by GentleReader9
Oy. Here we go.

I agree with most of what Seespotrun and realiz said about what I said. I'm not defending the totality of Barker's book. (Can't: didn't read it; not going to. If narrow-minded people can disagree with books they haven't read and try to ban them, I can agree with aspects of books I haven't read and try to defend them.) I actually like to try to agree with everyone about this kind of thing. It's much more intellectually stimulating and challenging than trying to disagree about religion, which is like shooting fish in a barrel. Any narrow-minded, ignorant dogmatist can do it, explaining where everyone else is wrong. It's also more spiritually valuable for me to look at what people are saying that makes sense or could stand for something of value than it is to pick it apart, waiting to pounce on the least danger of evil.

That said, I'm most likely to pick apart and nitpick over things that threaten most to turn me intense or dogmatic by way of my emotionally-charged agreement with something horrific in them. For instance, Dissident Heart, with absolutely no mercy to shed upon my sensitive little soul wrote:
When I confront the crucifixion (and confrontation is the correct term...there is no dispassionate or detached way to simply analyze, inspect or consider such brutality) I am always reminded of the terrors that actually and really plague human existence...not imaginary, mythic or merely religious concoctions...but factual abuses that wound real people in actual locations at certain times...genuine wounds that bleed real blood and cause real suffering....Jesus crucified is a graphic mirror of the horror that fills our world.

Jesus crucified also stings my own conscience, forcing me to consider how I have and am currently supporting the crucifixtions of others: in this sense it becomes a symbolic accusation and metaphorical challenge to admit to where my actions (or inaction) lends power to the torture and wounding of others...what is my part in the terrible injustices and cruelties that fill the contemporary landscape...again, not imagined or mythic wounds- but actual bodies in real places suffering in real ways?
All I can say is, if you would like me to be able to live to do the kind of support and service work I do in my daily life, you will keep the bloody crosses and exhortations to imagine how I may be lending power to the torture of others to a minimum.

Many of my life choices, good and bad, have been based on an exaggerated sense of my power in this area. You and I are not the only people on the planet making choices, Dissident Heart, and I find that my capacity to effect a change by taking more responsibility than is my share corrodes responsibility into guilt, rescuing, enabling, crusading, ranting, and ultimately, self-destruction.

I live a modest life with an emphaisis on service and self-care, and I try to stay right-sized about how much I am actually entitled to control. Nobody ever consults me before they exploit and torture people, to my indignation. If they did, I would surely make them stop.

I have a dear, retired friend who went to prison for crossing the line at Fort Benning, Georgia (Formerly School of the Americas, where they teach and export torture). She had to do it twice to make the judge punish her because she was so old, they didn't want to. I picked her up at the train station when she came back and arranged for her to give a presentation to the community. I have also supported survivors of torture. I try not to buy products linked to practices like child slavery (nearly impossible).

That's enough. I am not going to look at bloody pictures of Jesus and meditate on the blessed sorrows of the holy martyrs because I just don't think it helps me or anyone else. (You can see how hard I have to struggle not to get "intense and dogmatic," huh?) I like to go to nature for my prayer and meditation, grow pretty plants, pick up shells and pinecones and pretty rocks and leaves and pet my purring kitty. Life has beauty in it and joy and love, and its Creator needs a safe place to store these treasures, a safe heart will do. Why not mine? Why not yours? We are so fortunate and privileged. If we aren't at peace and grateful, who in the world will be?

Posted: Fri Jan 09, 2009 12:39 am
by Dissident Heart
Crosses paid for with our Tax Dollars


United States and weapons of mass destruction: nuclear weapons, chemical weapons, biological weapons http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Sta ... estruction

The USA is the world's biggest polluter http://www.vexen.co.uk/USA/pollution.html#Pollution

Too Many Guns http://www.fpif.org/fpiftxt/5619
The United States is the world's largest arms-supplying nation. In 2007, the United States entered into over $19.1 billion in Foreign Military Sales (FMS) agreements with other nations and for 2008, sales of military goods and services mushroomed to $34 billion - triple the volume of the Bush administration's first year.

U.S. exports range from combat aircraft to Pakistan, Greece, and Chile to small arms and light weapons to the Philippines, Egypt, and Georgia. Since the beginning of the war on terror, the United States has transferred more than $88 billion in weapons and military material through the Foreign Military Sales channel. In 2006 and 2007, U.S. weapons and military training went to over 168 states and territories. But it's not just big weapons systems transferred legally.

Posted: Fri Jan 09, 2009 2:15 am
by Interbane
DH, we understand how these things are bad, and are attempting to eliminate them. The exception is the arms trades, which I'm sure is far more complicated than what it appears on the surface. If there are warlike countries with their self-built weapons, and we could save innocent lives in a neighboring country by lending them weapons, the issue becomes more complex.

I don't see how flaunting such evils supports your point. We can, and are, working together to reduce nuclear arms and pollution production. What more can feeling guilty about this situation as individuals benefit us? We don't need to picture a man tortured on a cross to prompt us to take responsibility.

Posted: Fri Jan 09, 2009 8:43 am
by Dissident Heart
Interbane: DH, we understand how these things are bad, and are attempting to eliminate them.

If you feel the need to speak for we, that's your perogative...it's inaccurate and impossible, but it's certainly possible to type it when you feel the desire to do so.

Considering the terrors of nuclear war and the generations of toxic waste that accompany the production of nuclear weapons...the costs and risks are awesome, profound and terrifying...making your absurd statement "we understand how these things are bad" sound as glib as it is ridiculous...these weapons systems and their waste products can, and probably will, annihilate the biosphere as we know it, or can even imagine it...creating a moral crisis of global, cross-species and generational proportions..."we are attempting to eliminate them" is like saying, "we have built our cities upon mountains of TNT, but we are trying to walk a little softer"...this is a horrific nightmare that our civilization has simply learned to live with: making believe that it really isnt there...that we actually have a handle on it...that we understand and are working to minimize and even eliminate its threat...all the while crucifying ourselves, the biosphere and countless generations to come. You're right, we don't need images of Jesus crucified: we need to simply look in the mirror.

Posted: Mon Jan 12, 2009 2:10 pm
by Interbane
DH: "..."we are attempting to eliminate them" is like saying, "we have built our cities upon mountains of TNT, but we are trying to walk a little softer""

Except that the original motive to build the weaponry came from political tensions, the same territorial exclusive thinking that is not only fundamental to human nature, but also the root of this problem. It's a critical distinction.

What would you do to solve this problem DH? Your broad skepticism of the START treaty seems to ignore the fact that we are, in the end, human.

DH: "...making your absurd statement "we understand how these things are bad" sound as glib as it is ridiculous..."

Fine, sorry. We're all going to die horrible deaths from this technology. Everyone must drop what they're doing and flock to Washington DC to rally against nuclear technology!!! They sky is falling, the sky is falling!!! Better?

DH: "You're right, we don't need images of Jesus crucified: we need to simply look in the mirror."

That's a start, and quite a bit more truthful. Now you need to cross the bridge of no longer dwelling on our mistakes, and instead start making positive steps.

Posted: Mon Jan 12, 2009 2:18 pm
by seespotrun2008
All I can say is, if you would like me to be able to live to do the kind of support and service work I do in my daily life, you will keep the bloody crosses and exhortations to imagine how I may be lending power to the torture of others to a minimum.
I understand what you are saying gentlereader, I work in social service as well and also see a lot of suffering. It is very tricky to remain positive and take care of yourself when you do that kind of work.

I think that different people need different things. If it makes some people feel humble and inspires them to make the world better due to the fact that they see the crucifixion, I think that is not a bad thing. I also see crucifixion as a horrific thing and that does not really inspire me. But I personally see some benefit in what Dissident Heart is saying. Perhaps the Christian crucifixion can be viewed as a metaphor for all human suffering for some people.

Individual spiritual beliefs or the rejection of spirituality is so complicated because it is such an emotional topic. It can be very hard to step back and allow others their beliefs. It is something that I struggle with even outside of religion.

Yet, there is another side in which we can not allow each other to be bullies to others. Just because someone has a personal conviction does not mean that that person has a right to demand that other people believe the same thing. There is some beauty of our constant discussion of this topic in the United States. We are constantly learning how and where to set boundries with each other and how to live with each other and our different experiences and viewpoints.

Posted: Mon Jan 12, 2009 2:46 pm
by Dissident Heart
seespotrun: Perhaps the Christian crucifixion can be viewed as a metaphor for all human suffering for some people.

I think it can be a metaphor for all that suffers: the tortured existence of, well, existence ... from the obliteration of star-stuff to the consumption of food-stuff ... stuff suffers and I think the crucifixion is a way to contemplate what that means, its implications and demands upon our lives ... this is not simply a moral theory or ethical system: it is a visceral slap in the face, kick in the groin and punch in the gut ... not a pollyannish glimpse of life's difficulties ... nor a cooly objective, calmly measured and balanced analysis of sorrow ... it is the smell of imperial brutality and dictatorial abuse: malice that disappeares victims, torments communities, and wages war against civilians and innocents ... it is the bloody reminder to consider innocence ... to protect the innocent.

But the Crucifixion is not the only element of the story, thank God ... the life that led to the Cross: the agenda, teaching, organizing, activism, and movement that triggered the violence of empire and the brutality of its attending cohorts ... the life that spurred such a death ... the life of Jesus: of healing and feeding, gathering the oppressed together in solidarity and service ... challenging taboos of power, dominance, status and identity ... offering a profound, radical alternative ... again, not simply a morality to follow or an ethic to understand: but a way of life that envisioned the fundamental transformation of empire, temple, family and identity.

Posted: Mon Jan 12, 2009 3:42 pm
by Interbane
DH: "I think it can be a metaphor for all that suffers: the tortured existence of, well, existence ... from the obliteration of star-stuff to the consumption of food-stuff ... stuff suffers and I think the crucifixion is a way to contemplate what that means, its implications and demands upon our lives ..."

Well, matter is neither created nor destroyed. It merely changes form, and perhaps for the better. I believe you're being a bit overdramatic in the application of your metaphor. The metaphor also seems a bit outdated. What I envision of the problems in today's world is an asian man setting himself on fire, or a terrified martyr about to kill himself and many around him for what he believes.

Posted: Mon Jan 12, 2009 4:25 pm
by Dissident Heart
Interbane: Well, matter is neither created nor destroyed. It merely changes form, and perhaps for the better.

What happens to matter matters ... your glib merely , again, much like your we understand how these things are bad , betrays either an insensitivity to how matter suffers or a dismissal of how suffering matters...

Interbane: I believe you're being a bit overdramatic in the application of your metaphor.

Drama matters because matter is dramatic: its performance is terrific and terrifying and few spaces exist where terror is not present, or on its way, or has left its trace, wounding existence...matter is wounded...wounds matter...

Interbane: The metaphor also seems a bit outdated. What I envision of the problems in today's world is an asian man setting himself on fire, or a terrified martyr about to kill himself and many around him for what he believes.

The Asian man setting himself on fire (as some did in opposition to the Vietnam War) is a powerful image: but I don't know what led to it...what kind of living led to that kind of death...what kind of movement and solidarity brought that man to such a terrible demise...and, unlike the Crucifixion, the one doing the killing was the dying man himself: whereas, it was the full force of imperial brutality that nailed bodies to crosses...likewise, the violent martyr you refer to is not the same as the tortured victim crucified by the cold machinations of empire...the one committing suicide alone and the one committing suicide murder do not convey the same meaning as the victim tortured on the cross.