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Reasons 1 - 10

#52: Aug. - Sept. 2008 (Non-Fiction)
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Chris OConnor

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Reasons 1 - 10

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Reasons 1 - 10

Please use this thread for discussing Reasons 1 - 10:

1. My god is obvious.

2. Almost everybody on Earth is religious.

3. Faith is a good thing.

4. Archaeological discoveries prove that my god exists.

5. Only my god can make me feel significant.

6. Atheism is just another religion.

7. Evolution is bad.

8. Our world is too beautiful to be an accident.

9. My god created the universe.

10. Believing in my god makes me happy.
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1. My god is obvious.

No - certainly not obvious - there are many tragedies in life which make it appear that a benign being can not possibly exist.

2. Almost everybody on Earth is religious.

In history men do seem to have religion throughout the earth, but with the growth of scientific knowledge, this is less so.

3. Faith is a good thing.

Faith is necessary to some people, neither a good nor a bad thing....just necessary, otherwise, one would be so full of fear, one would not be able to function.

4. Archaeological discoveries prove that my god exists.

Archaeological discoveries only prove that religion has existed....

5. Only my god can make me feel significant.

Because one is conscious, one knows one is significant, but not necessarily important.

6. Atheism is just another religion.

Atheism is just another way of being....or looking at life....None of us really know what it is all about. It is just as wrong of an atheist to claim that there is absolutely no such thing as God as it is to claim to know that there is. We cannot absolutely know....we cannot prove either.

7. Evolution is bad.

Evolution is a way of looking at what has happened - neither good nor bad.

8. Our world is too beautiful to be an accident.

Our World is very beautiful.....but very cruel and in many ways corrupt.

9. My god created the universe.

How can we say that something which science seems to say is infinite has ever been created? Created means a beginning....and therefore an end.

10. Believing in my god makes me happy.

Believing in no beginning and no end makes me feel 'satisfied', but sometimes I am happy and sometimes unhappy. This is just the human dilemma
Only those become weary of angling who bring nothing to it but the idea of catching fish.

He was born with the gift of laughter and a sense that the world is mad....

Rafael Sabatini
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A few opening comments about the first couple of reasons

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Number one, were I to attempt something of this scope I would be meticulously careful with my facts. Mr. Harrison alludes to Islam and Christianity in his first chapter stating that if the "Gods" of those huge religions were so self evident why are there so many dis-believers in each.

To begin with the God of Abraham IS the God of both Islam and Christianity. If one looks back through history it becomes apparent that The Jews, the Muslims, and the Christians ALL worship the same God. The divergence occurred at the birth of Christ and six hundred years later at the visions of Muhammad. Virtually everyone on the planet that believes in a single God believes in the same one.
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Secondly, any premise that attempts to explain God in terms of our reality is trying to mix apples and oranges. God could no more be OF this universe than a carpenter could be a part of the house he just built. The carpenter having finished his creation could then go into the house but that would not make him a part of the house itself. Proof, as we know it, is of the senses or of science and the God we worship has to stand outside of that universe or how could he be God. What proof of the senses would a skeptic accept?

Another glaring issue that jumps out at me is in Mr. Harrison's book is his continuous over simplification of issues that are anything but simple.

He maligns faith as the antithesis of critical thinking instead of considering that not everything in this universe falls within in the purview and abilities of the human mind.
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Flyboy said:
The divergence occurred at the birth of Christ and six hundred years later at the visions of Muhammad. Virtually everyone on the planet that believes in a single God believes in the same one.
I think that perhaps the first divergence was when Abraham begat Ishmael by the Egyptian servant girl, and then begat Isaac by his wife Sarah. God, in Genesis, is reputed to have said that he would make great nations rise from both of these sons of Abraham. So the Arabs came from Ishmael and the Jews came from Isaac and according to Genesis, God said, that these two races would always be at war until the end of time.

And they certainly are...
Only those become weary of angling who bring nothing to it but the idea of catching fish.

He was born with the gift of laughter and a sense that the world is mad....

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Believe it or not, this is only for the preface and Ch. 1:

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From the inception of the book, Mr. Harrison seems to delineate his strawman: an uneducated, uncritical person who rarely if ever questions the historical roots and narrative arches of their own faith. I joined BookTalk.org partially because I saw that this was one of the next selections on the reading list, and I chose to play the role of apologist, since Chris O'Connor apprised me that most people here are either atheists or agnostics. I refuse, however, to defend the non-thinker.

Mr. Harrison says explicitly in the forward, "Most Christians I have encountered in the world, for example, don't give much though to the works of St. Thomas Aquinas or C. S. Lewis." (p.13). If that's the case, then I would argue that you've been talking to the wrong Christians, that you've been lead to believe Christianity is a religion of accepting lemmings just based on your experience. As a Christian of an admittedly highly liberal and heterodox tradition, I refuse to let the name of Christianity be co-opted by dogmatists, creationists, those who would refuse the scientific advancements that prove much of the Bible false. He goes on to say, "If any gods are real, I sincerely want to know them." (p. 19.) If you want to know them, Mr. Harrison, I politely suggest that you make yourself a student of comparative religion and religious history. (It seems to a great extent that you have already done this.) If you wish to "know" them to any greater extent, I'm afraid you're going to be disappointed
Last edited by hegel1066 on Mon Jul 28, 2008 1:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.
madelinegauthier

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I think when you stated that people can't find God to be obvious to them just because of tragedies, you may have failed to consider contrasting reasoning. What I mean to say is that there are a great number of people who do feel the God they worship is obvious to them, in spite of all the horrors of this world. I think by saying what you did, you're failing to take into consideration what many believe, and what many have pondered and studied for years.

I suppose these are just my thoughts... I only want to present another point of view on that subject, and to defend that way of thinking.
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Reply to Madeline:

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Madeline,

I did not mention anywhere that, because of tragic earthly events, that God can or should seem more or less apparent to people.

It seemed fairly apparent to me that the author, when he used the word "obvious" was speaking of sensorily obvious - immediately perceptible with one of the five senses. I'm not sure I know many people that can honest say (literally) that they SEE God, or SMELL God, or can TOUCH God...

Of course, what you can do is *intuit* God's immediate presence. That's all well and good. But intuition doesn't seem like one of the sensing means that the author is speaking of.

-John (hegel1066)
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Madeline quoted something I had said, and Hegel answered and took responsibility....thank you Hegel.

I have encountered spirituality - an intuition or a sense of 'the Presence'...at various times during my life. Sometimes on joyous occasions - at the birth of my daughter for instance.

My first child died at birth....and then I also had a sense of the presence...just upholding me.

How can we explain this? Just that in times of sorrow, it is upholding and in times of joy.....it gives us a 'transcendent expression' of our joy. These are my own poor words....not borrowed or plagiarised....but, of course, we can always be dubbed delusional.....

We can only attempt to be truthful and be prepared for the ridicule. xxx
Only those become weary of angling who bring nothing to it but the idea of catching fish.

He was born with the gift of laughter and a sense that the world is mad....

Rafael Sabatini
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Penelope:

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Penelope -

You're right. It is sometimes in joyous exultation and ponderous meditation that we feel an intuited presence, which, for me, is both a part of me and separate from me.

I'm sorry to hear of your tragic loss. When I was four years old, my mother experienced the same thing, and I remember her walking around our house, half-disoriented, half-stultified for weeks thereafter.

And again, you are right that it "holds us up." One of my favorite theologians, the existentialist Protestant Paul Tillich, says that God is "the Ultimate Ground of Being" - the psychic and emotional sieve that all of human has to make due with. A lot of people point to the idea that physiological phenomenon can account for feelings of exultation and joy - a rush of endorphines, say. As if that made the feeling any less tangible.

Your "poor words" - our poor words - are all that we can offer in hortatory praise to This Cosmic Chorus of voices. And if anyone ever ridicules you for your conclusions, feel sorry that they haven't reached some of deeper, meaningful conclusions that you obviously alread have.

-John (hegel1066)
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