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Invitation to watch "Guns, Germs, and Steel" programs

Posted: Sat Nov 12, 2011 8:09 am
by DWill
It looks as though several of us want to watch the Nat. Geo. docs on this book. We can be like some students I've known--"Nah, I didn't read the book, watched the video." But in this case I think at least some of us want to continue on to the book. If some don't have time for the reading, though, they'll still be able to participate and we may get more people in that way.

Anyone else besides giselle, saffron, and LevV (and geo?) interested in starting a discussion, say about a week from now? The website LevV directed us to works well, and by the way is a very cool one that I hadn't known about.

http://documentaryheaven.com/pt-13-guns ... t-of-eden/

Re: Invitation to watch "Guns, Germs, and Steel" programs

Posted: Sat Nov 12, 2011 11:22 am
by kelstan
You know, I wasn't ready to commit to reading the book, so I had no intention of participating in the discussion, but I believe I will give the vids a go and perhaps they will inspire me to read the book. Thanks for posting.

Re: Invitation to watch "Guns, Germs, and Steel" programs

Posted: Sat Nov 12, 2011 6:46 pm
by giselle
I've watched 2 out of 3 of these video segments, they are excellent, thanks to LevV for pointing us in the right direction and the documentary heaven site has lots of good stuff. My guess is that the videos will help to spur interest in the book. I'll be interested to see how the book adds 'meat' to the bones that the videos cover. And I look forward to reflecting back on my own experiences and observations from when I worked in Papua New Guinea 20 odd years ago. I do note that video 1 has some great clips of gazelles.

One related matter that I plan to look into is the apparent decline of 'geography' as a field of study. From what I understand this decline is not caused by lack of interest or money or some other material reason but because it's considered 'racist' .... do I have that right? that studying geography is somehow racist? I don't get it, but I do see this as pertinent to discussing Diamond's work because his arguments are heavily based on observations of climatic and biological conditions that are 100% linked to what we call 'geography', a term that Diamond uses several times in his videos. Ironically, Jared Diamond is really arguing that geography-based conditions explain disparities amoung people and societies and, if anything, he argues against race or genetic based explanations, a point that he raises in the videos. Geography was my favourite class back in high school so I feel rather disappointed that it has declined, particularly for a reason that I just don't get. Perhaps someone can enlighten me.

Re: Invitation to watch "Guns, Germs, and Steel" programs

Posted: Sat Nov 12, 2011 7:43 pm
by DWill
The decline of geography as a subject is an excellent topic to look at. I don't know what the reasons could be, and like you, can hardly think of a better or more important subject. I haven't heard of racism as part of the explanation for the decline. I know that when my daughter was in h.s., the kids took geography if they couldn't get into AP Government or just didn't want to be challenged. It was a bonehead class. A random fact floating around in my head is that Michael Jordan, the basketball great, had a geography degree from the University of North Carolina.

I've watched 1 1/2 of the programs, and they're well done. I posted a comment on the first one on the documentary heaven site. I guess we should hold off discussing them for a while yet. I think I'll be spending a lot of time in documentary heaven, because I love docs. Thanks to LevV again.

Re: Invitation to watch "Guns, Germs, and Steel" programs

Posted: Sat Nov 12, 2011 7:45 pm
by DWill
kelstan wrote:You know, I wasn't ready to commit to reading the book, so I had no intention of participating in the discussion, but I believe I will give the vids a go and perhaps they will inspire me to read the book. Thanks for posting.
Great. The vids go down fast and easy and I think you will enjoy them.

Re: Invitation to watch "Guns, Germs, and Steel" programs

Posted: Sat Nov 12, 2011 9:37 pm
by giselle
DWill wrote:The decline of geography as a subject is an excellent topic to look at. I don't know what the reasons could be, and like you, can hardly think of a better or more important subject. I haven't heard of racism as part of the explanation for the decline. I know that when my daughter was in h.s., the kids took geography if they couldn't get into AP Government or just didn't want to be challenged. It was a bonehead class. A random fact floating around in my head is that Michael Jordan, the basketball great, had a geography degree from the University of North Carolina.

I may have been a little premature in declaring ‘geography’ dead on racist grounds. Maybe it is the ‘bonehead’ factor that has led to it assuming a lower profile as an area of study, although I don’t remember geography being any easier than other courses, but that might be my own ‘bonehead factor’! In any case, I just like the study of physical landscapes and places and all that, bonehead or not .. :lol:

I did a bit of checking and possible racism in geography is linked to the idea of ‘environmental determinism’ as described below. It’s interesting that Diamond does tackle this point at the end of the first video …clearly his critics’ views are bothering him. He seems like a genuine and fair minded man, I can’t imagine he is racist. But as the item below details, Diamond and other environmental determinists have taken a few intellectual brick bats, including at least an inference of racism. I found it at absoluteastronomy.com but its actually from Wikipedia. I excerpted a few sections because it is a long article and added bold and italics.


"Environmental determinism, also known as climatic determinism or geographical determinism, is the view that the physical environment, rather than social conditions, determines culture. Those who believe this view say that humans are strictly defined by stimulus-response and cannot deviate.

The fundamental argument of the environmental determinists was that aspects of physical geography, particularly climate, influenced the psychological mind-set of individuals, which in turn defined the behaviour and culture of the society that those individuals formed. For example, tropical climates were said to cause laziness, relaxed attitudes and promiscuity, while the frequent variability in the weather of the middle latitudes led to more determined and driven by work ethic.

Because these environmental influences operate slowly on human biology, it was important to trace the migrations of groups to see what environmental conditions they had evolved under. Key proponents of this notion have included Ellen Churchill Semple, Ellsworth Huntingdon, Thomas Griffith Taylor and possibly Jared Diamond. Although Diamond's work does make connections between environmental and climatic conditions and societal development, it is published with the stated intention of disproving racist and eurocentric theories of development.

Between 1920 and 1940, environmental determinism came under repeated attacks as its claims were found to be severely faulted at best, and often dangerously wrong. Geographers reacted to this by first developing the softer notion of “environmental possibilism” and later by abandoning the search for theory and causal explanation for many decades. Later critics charged that determinism served to justify racism and imperialism. The experience of environmental determinism has left a scar on geography, with many geographers reacting negatively to any suggestion of environmental influences on human society.

While this accurately reflects the popular belief and perception in the geographic community towards environmental determinism, the debate was overlaid with hues of gray. Rostlund pointed out in his essay in Readings in Cultural Geography: "Environmentalism was not disproved, only disapproved." He also points to the fact that the disapproval was not based on inaccurate findings, but rather a methodological process which stands in contrast to that of science, something the geographers have arguably sought to ascribe themselves to. Carl O. Sauer followed on from this in 1924 when he criticized the premature generalizations resulting from the bias of environmentalism. He pointed out that to define geography as the study of environmental influences is to assume in advance that such influences do operate, and that a science cannot be based upon or committed to a preconception."

Re: Invitation to watch "Guns, Germs, and Steel" programs

Posted: Sat Nov 12, 2011 11:10 pm
by DWill
Although Diamond's work does make connections between environmental and climatic conditions and societal development, it is published with the stated intention of disproving racist and eurocentric theories of development.
That seems to be the important difference, that Diamond is using geography and climate in his theory, but unlike others who have said that those factors change people biologically, he says humans remain the same the world over. The only thing that geography/climate changed was the opportunities groups had to develop more complex societies and to eventually be the conquering societies rather than the conquered (if that is really an opportunity!).

Geography, as a study, never should have been tainted by the way some people used geography to legitimize racism.

Re: Invitation to watch "Guns, Germs, and Steel" programs

Posted: Sun Nov 13, 2011 12:42 am
by Saffron
Wow! I go off to a show in NYC and the thread gets going without me! I will catch up tomorrow on the bus home. I plan to watch at least the first it not the second video on the bus. I am very excited to get started as I really like what I have read so far.

Re: Invitation to watch "Guns, Germs, and Steel" programs

Posted: Sun Nov 13, 2011 9:42 am
by DWill
I'm sorry, saffron--kind of jumped the gun. Strike my comment from the record, please. I will say that I watched the other half of the vids last night. Now I'm curious about the criticisms of Diamond from the specialists in whose fields he tramples. But that's for later, too.

Re: Invitation to watch "Guns, Germs, and Steel" programs

Posted: Sun Nov 13, 2011 10:10 am
by Saffron
DWill wrote: Now I'm curious about the criticisms of Diamond from the specialists in whose fields he tramples. But that's for later, too.
Me too. I started to read a crit from a link posted by Chris the first go round. I'm on the bus back to DC and watching, so will catch up with the discussion later tonight. Later!