Chat transcript - Howard Bloom chat Jan. 2, 2003
Posted: Fri Jan 03, 2003 2:10 am
This is the complete chat transcript from our 2.5 hr. chat with author and scientist Howard Bloom.Feel free to posts comments and discuss right in this thread.connected: ezChat version 0.49Chris OConnor:: Hey MichaelMichaelangeloGlossolalia:: hi chrisChris OConnor:: HowdyChris OConnor:: So what is your estimate? How many do you think will show up?Chris OConnor:: I am hoping for at least 15 totalMichaelangeloGlossolalia:: dunnoquibbit joinedChris OConnor:: It sure would be a bummer if Howard Bloom didn't come Chris OConnor:: Hello Quibbit MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: hi quibbitChris OConnor:: Oh no....Quibbit is a spy and cannot talk to us MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: maybe quibbit is Howardquibbit:: Hello.Chris OConnor:: Nah, Howard said he registered as "HowBloom"Quibbit:: I'm Howard's assistant.Chris OConnor:: Hello QuibbitQuibbit:: My name is Stephen.Chris OConnor:: And how did you hear about this chat Quibbit?MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: hi StephenChris OConnor:: welcome StephenQuibbit:: Howard should be here in just a few minutesChris OConnor:: Ahh - is this Stephen is assistant?Quibbit:: yeah..Chris OConnor:: Yes, we talked on the phone. Good to "see" you. You are taller than I expected.Quibbit:: Just wanted to be around at least the first few minutes to make sure everything is going okay.Chris OConnor:: I don't blame you.MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: you're the guy who steps in if the group tries to lynch Howard?Chris OConnor:: Does Howard type about average speed?Chris OConnor:: Michael - that ruins our planMichaelangeloGlossolalia:: oh yeah, I wasn't supposed to tell!MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: sorry, sorryChris OConnor:: You are forgivenMichaelangeloGlossolalia:: thanksQuibbit:: I think so, maybe a bit faster if he's really going. Chris OConnor:: I'm good like thatMichaelangeloGlossolalia:: that means I'm in the "in group'Chris OConnor:: Stephen - well, we have no real format. I think Howard has enough formal engagements. I hope this is enjoyable for him.MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: oh no...William Shatner is going do another album Quibbit:: More people likely to show up at the last few minutes?xilog joinedQuibbit:: Yeah, it should be fun for him.MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: hi xilogxilog:: hi thereChris OConnor:: Stephen - Yes, there should be many more people coming over the next 15 minutesChris OConnor:: Hey Xilog!Chris OConnor:: MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: "A brutality that speaks to us through the animals in our brain" is a nice lineMichaelangeloGlossolalia:: Howard should make poetry out of some of his lines in LuciferChris OConnor:: Yes, Howard is a metaphorical masterChris OConnor:: That is his marketing genius shining throughQuibbit:: I think that he has something like that in the works. I think actually there's been some talk of a musical adaptation.Chris OConnor:: Stephen - are you serious?MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: Superorganisticexpialidocious!MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: could be a brutal remake of mary poppinsChris OConnor:: LOLChris OConnor:: Ok, no more egg nog for you MichaelQuibbit:: Yeah.. Actually.. I'll see if I can give you the link to an mp3 someone did of a show he was in.Quibbit:: I think he's getting on now.Bugteach joinedChris OConnor:: Thanks StephenChris OConnor:: Hello Bugteach MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: hi bugteachBugteach:: hello roomChris OConnor:: Let me guess - you are a biology teacher?Chris OConnor:: Stephen - Howard doesn't sing does he?Bugteach:: top of the evening to you allChris OConnor:: and to you too BugChris OConnor:: Where are you from? ...and how did you hear about this chat?MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: sings "bloody bloody genes, playing bloody scenes.."Chris OConnor:: Is that your own song Michael - it is lovelyBugteach:: Howard informed me by way of chrisMichaelangeloGlossolalia:: just made it upChris OConnor:: I would love to hear about all of Howard's experiences with the music industry too - but no time for that tonightChris OConnor:: Bug - Ahh - so you got my email I imagineBugteach:: yepChris OConnor:: Michael - you are quite skilledMichaelangeloGlossolalia:: I wanna hear about where Michael Jackson fits into the superorganismstevepainter joinedMichaelangeloGlossolalia:: hi SteveChris OConnor:: Steve!Chris OConnor:: stevepainter:: heyChris OConnor:: Good to see yastevepainter:: I just said to my wife that Chris might be freaking if I don't sign in soonChris OConnor:: Bug - where are you at though? Chris OConnor:: Steve - good pointBugteach:: Gary IndianaChris OConnor:: Bug - Ahh well good to have you with us tonight.stevepainter:: oh, that makes me think of The Music ManMichaelangeloGlossolalia:: "The slightest slip from the true path, they feel, can send Satan's minions writing through every vein of their body."Bugteach:: Michael Jackson's hatching pointBugteach:: thanks for the inviteMichaelangeloGlossolalia:: writhinghowbloom joinedMichaelangeloGlossolalia:: hi Howard!howbloom:: hiJohnny Neuron joinedmoose1567 joinedhowbloom:: glad to see youChris OConnor:: Howard! Welcome howbloom:: aha!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!stevepainter:: hello allmoose1567:: hi roomChris OConnor:: Hey Moose - and Johnnyhowbloom:: chris, thanks for having meJeremy1952 joinedChris OConnor:: Howard - it is our pleasurehowbloom:: Steve, moose, JohnnyJohnny Neuron:: Hello everyone...and especially Mr. Bloom!Chris OConnor:: And there is Jeremymoose1567:: Mr. bloomhowbloom:: it's good to meet you and Jeremy tooChris OConnor:: So everyone hangs outside the front door waiting for the last minute I seeJeremy1952:: Hi Howard, thank you !howbloom:: any interesting things you've been discussing?Bugteach:: hello Howard thanks for inviting meJeremy1952:: I was fiddling with the colorshowbloom:: any interesting questions?MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: I'm interested in your thoughts on the current rash of middle beastlinesshowbloom:: my son Walter says this chat process is coolhowbloom:: oi veyJeremy1952:: Middle beastliness? What does that mean?howbloom:: ok, what is your opinion of what's going on in the middle easthowbloom:: ?MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: the Middle BeastMichaelangeloGlossolalia:: i.e. IraqChris OConnor:: yes, I am interested in the Middle east situation too and I was intrigued by your views on the "barbaric" nature of Islamhowbloom:: why did we pick Iraq as a target?Chris OConnor:: My opinion is you hit the nail on the headMichaelangeloGlossolalia:: I was reminded of Lucifer when the outbreak of patriotism happened after 911Chris OConnor:: hmmmhowbloom:: militant Islam has put as at the center of its sightshowbloom:: its gun sightsMichaelangeloGlossolalia:: got the feeling America was becoming a militant organism howbloom:: it's targeted us as an enemyChris OConnor:: I am personally concerned that our choosing Iraq has too much to do with Bush Jr. making up for his fathers mistakeshowbloom:: war is built into our biologyMichaelangeloGlossolalia:: I worry about Bush's use of religious language..."evil" etcChris OConnor:: I totally see thathowbloom:: it's been with us for 3.5 billion yearsstevepainter:: I don't know, I thought that Christianity among others was just as barbaric - economic prosperity and societal development have just progressed faster for ushowbloom:: so when we're attacked by others who follow our common instinctual heritagehowbloom:: our military instincts are arousedJeremy1952:: Perhaps. But biology teaches me that cooperation is ultimately more powerful than competitionMichaelangeloGlossolalia:: is there any force in biology to compensate for our need to destroy? Or will the world just fall apart as WMD become available to small groups?Chris OConnor:: Howard - that was the most impressive concept - war, hatred, violence - all part of our struggle to existmoose1567:: we are targeted because of our openness of mind and freedom of religionshowbloom:: me too, re cooperation outweigh competitionMichaelangeloGlossolalia:: I think Islamic groups also project repressed sexuality onto ushowbloom:: the western world, western civilizationstevepainter:: definitely- cooperation helps groups surviveJeremy1952:: You're familiar with Axelrod? His example of WWII soldiers refusing to hurt one another?MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: they feel guilty and attack us for representing their guilthowbloom:: has purged itself of violence more successfully than any previous system of human social integrationChris OConnor:: Moose - I would think that is a part of ithowbloom:: who feels guilty?MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: Muslims re: sexualityChris OConnor:: Not IMichaelangeloGlossolalia:: America is seen as sexually expressiveJeremy1952:: Muslims feeling guilty about their own denied sexuality. howbloom:: Muslims feel guilty about sexuality:howbloom:: yes, the west is despised for its sexualityhowbloom:: for its depravityMichaelangeloGlossolalia:: the psychohistory guys talk a lot about thatChris OConnor:: yes, I read "The Arab Mind" which covered that issuehowbloom:: for having no mannersJeremy1952:: Of course we go a few rounds on that too (USAians, not necessarily all westerners)howbloom:: no civilizationhowbloom:: no proprietyMichaelangeloGlossolalia:: are you familiar with Lloyd's psychohistory list, Howard?MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: we really don't have a lot of mannershowbloom:: for harboring fornication and homosexualitystevepainter:: we seem to have a split personality in regards to sexualityChris OConnor:: How so Steve?howbloom:: I'm having trouble reading and writing at the same timeMichaelangeloGlossolalia:: I'd like to see more research on parallels between Islamic and Christian fundamentalistshowbloom:: how do we simplify the dialogChris OConnor:: Howard - take your timeBugteach:: are the present terrorist attacks a direct result of some infringement of the rats mimihowbloom:: ok ,let's concentrate on Christian fundamentalism and Islamic fundamentalism, ok?Chris OConnor:: We will all slow downMichaelangeloGlossolalia:: okChris OConnor:: Ok, sounds like a plan HowardJeremy1952:: The usual technique in "chat" is to selectively ignore; I guess that's a ltitle harder for an invited guest, though!howbloom:: these are two areas I've researchedhowbloom:: and have spent 20 years fighting personallyMichaelangeloGlossolalia:: all the Christians seem excited about Armageddon latelystevepainter:: on the one hand we harbor a Victorian idea of what proper behavior is, but on the other we sell sex in every wayhowbloom:: yes, the rapturehowbloom:: but here's the bottom linehowbloom:: Christian fundamentalism killed over 180 people in Oklahoma cityJeremy1952:: True...howbloom:: one doctor in my hometown, Buffalo, NYhowbloom:: and has planted several bombshowbloom:: at abortion clinicsChris OConnor:: yes, very truehowbloom:: it's dangerous and filled with hatehowbloom:: and its promoted absurd forms of censorshipJeremy1952:: So; are the fundamentalists really a different "thing" than the rest of the religion?Chris OConnor:: I believe all religions to be dangeroushowbloom:: getting rid of Harry Potter for being satanichowbloom:: yesMichaelangeloGlossolalia:: I think so Jeremy, I think they're a distinct subculturehowbloom:: fundamentalists coherestevepainter:: religious fundamentalism of every stripe can be barbaric and dangeroushowbloom:: more strongly than othershowbloom:: they cohere around hatredhowbloom:: despising evilJeremy1952:: But doesn't any religion have the potential to become more dangerous? Or less?howbloom:: and fighting igstevepainter:: it's fear really I thinkhowbloom:: fighting is a great bonding mechanismMichaelangeloGlossolalia:: any group of humans, JeremyChris OConnor:: I was not aware of the hatred preaches in the Koran, but our Bible is not much betterhowbloom:: do you rememberstevepainter:: the hatred that isJohnny Neuron:: I definitely feel there is a rise in Christian fundamentalism here in the US; take the "Left Behind" series ie.Chris OConnor:: How so Howard?howbloom:: back in the days of Marxism vs. capitalismhowbloom:: how the revolutionaries always called forJeremy1952:: Hmmm... well, but groups of humans have the potential for being dealt with rationally. We have goals thathowbloom:: unity, fraternity, solidarity?Jeremy1952:: can turn in to mutual goals. Religions, on the other hand, seem inherently self serving;Chris OConnor:: Yes Howardhowbloom:: for camaraderieMichaelangeloGlossolalia:: probably has a lot to do with early experiences with authority tooNaddiaAoC joinedhowbloom:: all these are bonding termshowbloom:: people need desperately to bondhowbloom:: deeply with other human beingsJeremy1952:: death dealing if that spreads the meme, peace dealing if that works todaymoose1567:: Hi Nadia!!!MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: do you think it's also a need to purge one's own group of dissonance? guilt, shame etc?howbloom:: fundamentalism uses a primary bonding mechanismJeremy1952:: Hey NadiaChris OConnor:: Howard - very truehowbloom:: yes to dissonance guilt and shameNaddiaAoC:: Hi everyone!howbloom:: they're part of the brewMichaelangeloGlossolalia:: fundamentalists seem to use a lot of military metaphorshowbloom:: i was just sitting with an Islamic friendJeremy1952:: Do you see it, Howard, as a technique being used by fundamentalists, or is it morehowbloom:: who wondered why his community in Brooklynhowbloom:: is gung ho for holy warhowbloom:: for the idea Jeremy1952:: an evolution, selection, within the meme of fundamentalism?howbloom:: that death is more important to usChris OConnor:: Howard - individual humans are somewhat predictable, but it is when large groups act as one that we seem to experience horrific resultshowbloom:: than life is to youhowbloom:: this is an idea that's taking off MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: is death some kind of ecstatic union?howbloom:: in an Islamic community of middle and upper middlehowbloom:: class professionalshowbloom:: doctorshowbloom:: dentistshowbloom:: psychiatristshowbloom:: here in BrooklynJohnny Neuron:: Mr. Bloom, I am a former fundamentalist (former Jehovah's Witness) and I agree that most fundamentalists have more in common with other opposing fundamentalists than say, liberal religionists. It seems that social cohesion is more important than doctrine or dogma.howbloom:: militant Islam has a horrible track record for deliveryhowbloom:: it oppresses the poor horriblystevepainter:: really? I didn't know the more educated were in on the idea of jihad alsohowbloom:: by making themhowbloom:: far poorerhowbloom:: than ever beforeJeremy1952:: One of the things I learned from your book, though, is that delivering on promises isn't all that importantJeremy1952:: to the success of a culthowbloom:: look at Egypthowbloom:: you're righthowbloom:: you hit the pointhowbloom:: let me tell youhowbloom:: about Egypt, ok?MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: you can always blame the enemy for your own failure to deliverhowbloom:: in 1951Chris OConnor:: Good point Jeremyhowbloom:: Egypt had the same standard of livinghowbloom:: as south Koreahowbloom:: today the average Koreanhowbloom:: makes 20 times as muchhowbloom:: per yearChris OConnor:: wowhowbloom:: as the average Egyptianhowbloom:: and in the last howbloom:: 20 yearshowbloom:: the Egyptian standard of livinghowbloom:: and that in allhowbloom:: the Arab countrieshowbloom:: has deteriorated dramaticallyhowbloom:: its plungedhowbloom:: to the levelhowbloom:: of sub Saharan Africahowbloom:: which has Chris OConnor:: As the result of what? - what is fueling their demise?howbloom:: the lowest standard of livingJeremy1952:: Well, is that a good thing, or a bad thing? Didn't you say that it is success that leads to warlike behavior?howbloom:: anywhere in the worldstevepainter:: so are the despotic-style rulers the cause or the effect?howbloom:: it's a result of militaryhowbloom:: fetishChris OConnor:: Ahhhowbloom:: weapon hungerhowbloom:: killing lusthowbloom:: hate frenzyhowbloom:: righteous anger stokingmoose1567:: the new world order?Jeremy1952:: aha. Yea, that makes sense. Especially in light of what North Korea is doinghowbloom:: in other wordshowbloom:: it's a result of druggingMichaelangeloGlossolalia:: I see the US having some problems, states are running out of money and we're diverting social funds into military ventures howbloom:: the masses not with an opioidhowbloom:: but with a steroidhowbloom:: we can get into the states laterhowbloom:: billions of dollarsstevepainter:: promise them power rather than a prosperous future?Chris OConnor:: explain this steroid concepthowbloom:: have gone through Arab handshowbloom:: billions ofhowbloom:: oil dollarshowbloom:: billions of dollars in aidhowbloom:: and all that moneyTimothy Schoonover joinedhowbloom:: has gone for just one thingmoose1567:: hi Timhowbloom:: prideChris OConnor:: Hey Tim - pull up a chairhowbloom:: for couragehowbloom:: for heroismhowbloom:: for victoryTimothy Schoonover:: argh...I'm late?howbloom:: which means for weaponshowbloom:: for killinghowbloom:: putting all your moneyNaddiaAoC:: hi TimChris OConnor:: Howard - makes so much sensehowbloom:: into weaponry produceshowbloom:: povertyhowbloom:: and yet the Arabshowbloom:: and their fellow Moslemshowbloom:: are more determinedhowbloom:: than ever MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: is there a sexual tension between being "manly" and being "weak" involved here?Chris OConnor:: Howard - but in Lucifer you stress the need to always be at the ready - against the "barbarians"howbloom:: to spread their message globallyhowbloom:: why?howbloom:: because anger bondshowbloom:: righteousness bondshowbloom:: fury bonds howbloom:: righteous indignation bondshowbloom:: and humans live howbloom:: on the oxygen of attentionhowbloom:: they live in a sea of bonds or Chris OConnor:: so true...anger and hatred bond - we need enemies to vent our hatred towardshowbloom:: isolationhowbloom:: isolation killsMichaelangeloGlossolalia:: does it also wash away the feeling of contamination?howbloom:: bonding brings lifehowbloom:: yeshowbloom:: the Arabs and nonhowbloom:: Arab Moslems know exactlystevepainter:: that would explain why isolationism never worksstevepainter:: in the long runhowbloom:: where all the sinhowbloom:: n the world ishowbloom:: it is herehowbloom:: in the westhowbloom:: particularly in the ushowbloom:: so the ultimate goal ofhowbloom:: an Osama would behowbloom:: something like thishowbloom:: to get his hands on Pakistan's nukesChris OConnor:: yeshowbloom:: on Pakistan's next generation stealth subshowbloom:: on Pakistan's midhowbloom:: range ballistic missileshowbloom:: which fit snuglyhowbloom:: into the forward portion of thehowbloom:: submarineshowbloom:: missile delivering subshowbloom:: to set one of Pakistan'smoose1567:: scaryhowbloom:: three subs on a pathhowbloom:: to North America'showbloom:: Atlantic coastJeremy1952:: So , do we need a proper enemy to bond us together? Are we making a mistake not wallowing in hatred of Muslims &/or Arabs?howbloom:: these subs have a 10,000howbloom:: mile rangeChris OConnor:: A nuke attack on our nation could bring us to our knees, perhaps cast us into the dark ages instantlyMichaelangeloGlossolalia:: is Bush risking instability in Pakistan by attacking Iraq?howbloom:: to sendhowbloom:: another subhowbloom:: to the pacific coasthowbloom:: and to nuke America's fifteenstevepainter:: I don't think so Jeremy - we paint a country as an enemy and that seems to work pretty wellhowbloom:: largest citieshowbloom:: it would be the pr coup of thhowbloom:: the 21sthowbloom:: centuryhowbloom:: it would do forhowbloom:: Osama whatChris OConnor:: Howard - our country would fallhowbloom:: destroying the populationshowbloom:: of entire citieshowbloom:: did for Alexanderhowbloom:: Alexander of MacedonChris OConnor:: Howard - 2 large buildings destroyed and our nation completely shut down for awhilehowbloom:: became Alexander the greatJeremy1952:: I don't know. I'm not comfortable hating. It took me a year after 9-11 to STOP hating Muslims; and that was helped byhowbloom:: via body countJohnny Neuron:: Isn't the Pakistani govt. an ally of the US though?Jeremy1952:: a realization that consistency would require hating Christians, too.howbloom:: don't hate Moslems, don't at allhowbloom:: hate Moslem militancyhowbloom:: just as you hate theChris OConnor:: It is not the Muslims, but the memehowbloom:: militancy of theMichaelangeloGlossolalia:: I don't hate Islam at all. I see it as a runaway system, and our system is in danger of the same thinghowbloom:: Christian fundamentalistshowbloom:: holed up in Idahohowbloom:: our jobJeremy1952:: Two separate things, though; I was asking if we SHOULD, not if it is rational.Chris OConnor:: excellent pointhowbloom:: is to save MoslemsMichaelangeloGlossolalia:: I don't even hate the virus of fundamentalism, it's just a psychological diseasehowbloom:: just as they thinkJeremy1952:: If it works for them... bonding ...howbloom:: their job is to save usMichaelangeloGlossolalia:: Jeremy, it is a good question, how to bond ourselveshowbloom:: their are better ways of howbloom:: bondingMichaelangeloGlossolalia:: good pointhowbloom:: we need to knowChris OConnor:: Michael - it is a disease that must be cured before it brings the entire superorganism downMichaelangeloGlossolalia:: opposites attracthowbloom:: what we stand forhowbloom:: what we offerMichaelangeloGlossolalia:: chris--exactlystevepainter:: but Jeremy - we'd be turning on many of our own Americans who are Muslimshowbloom:: that's worth living and dying forhowbloom:: many Moslems believe MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: Steve--as Osama turned on those Muslimshowbloom:: in the western systemstevepainter:: righthowbloom:: as passionately as I doMichaelangeloGlossolalia:: we should emphasize that militant Muslims don't' care about American Muslims at allhowbloom:: and many more can be cut loosehowbloom:: from the plaguehowbloom:: of violencehowbloom:: of militancystevepainter:: all the more reason we shouldn't "hate Muslims"MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: I worry about the effect of a war in Iraq on thishowbloom:: Osama's reasoninghowbloom:: about our Moslemshowbloom:: is thishowbloom:: we can affordhowbloom:: he says,howbloom:: to lose 100 million MoslemsMichaelangeloGlossolalia:: I've heard a lot of Americans in chat rooms say "first we'll take Iraq, then Saudi, then Iran"howbloom:: in order to dohowbloom:: what Allah demandshowbloom:: to take over the worldhowbloom:: the Moslem websites are nowhowbloom:: talking openly abouthowbloom:: "taking Europe back"stevepainter:: Saudi Arabia is really the force behind most of thishowbloom:: to make Europe thehowbloom:: Moslem territoryhowbloom:: it was alwayshowbloom:: meant to behowbloom:: with no ushowbloom:: in the picturehowbloom:: no united Chris OConnor:: and this is indeed the goal of the Islamic faith - world domination and stated in the Koranhowbloom:: statesMichaelangeloGlossolalia:: so does this boil down to a third world war?howbloom:: Europe would have to bow howbloom:: obsequiouslyBugteach:: sight a web sight pleaseJeremy1952:: Well, that was the stated goal of world communism too...howbloom:: on its kneesMichaelangeloGlossolalia:: if you read Revelation, it's an almost identical vision, only with Jesus as the rulerhowbloom:: to Osamahowbloom:: the new whathowbloom:: does he call ithowbloom:: not the emirMichaelangeloGlossolalia:: caliph?Timothy Schoonover:: It's inherent to the nature of memes, no?howbloom:: but the new leader yeshowbloom:: caliphhowbloom:: of a global empirehowbloom:: globalhowbloom:: the world is going globalhowbloom:: Islam was built forhowbloom:: globalismChris OConnor:: wowhowbloom:: its the only religionhowbloom:: that offers ahowbloom:: global system ofhowbloom:: laws and governmentstevepainter:: but the fundamental version is just as repressive as any otherChris OConnor:: our position as world leader teeters on the edge of collapseJeremy1952:: One ray of hope in my world view, is that parasites tend to get less dangerous over timeMichaelangeloGlossolalia:: was just reading a paragraph from Lucifer: "If we ever save ourselves from the scourge of mass violence, it will be through the efforts of millions of minds, networked together..."howbloom:: yes, thishowbloom:: is a turning pointhowbloom:: in historyhowbloom:: the things we discusshowbloom:: today, nowChris OConnor:: Michael - I think that is what Global Brain is abouthowbloom:: in this chathowbloom:: may make a differenceJeremy1952:: If you look at old time Christianity it looks about as bad as 21 century Islamhowbloom:: in the direction history takes tomorrowstevepainter:: absolutelyChris OConnor:: yes, there are seeds being planted right nowJohnny Neuron lefthowbloom:: old time Christianity wasJeremy1952:: but it seems to have "mellowed" over the centurieshowbloom:: ghastlyMichaelangeloGlossolalia:: do people end up acting like the gods they follow?howbloom:: BUT WE DON'T HAVE IThowbloom:: ANYMOREhowbloom:: we've evolved beyond ithowbloom:: to new forms of competitionstevepainter:: for the most parthowbloom:: creative competitionJeremy1952:: Just like the diseases we live with; pneumonia has been around a long time, so we have come to terms with it. A truce, more or less.howbloom:: cooperationhowbloom:: that enricheshowbloom:: not impoverishesMichaelangeloGlossolalia:: one girl trained as a suicide bomber decided not to go through with it...she felt the jihadists were playing with the blood of the martyrsJeremy1952:: Malaria is relatively young and quite destructivehowbloom:: let me tell you a storystevepainter:: many seem to want to bring back "old time Christianity"Johnny Neuron joinedhowbloom:: about cottonhowbloom:: ok?Chris OConnor:: yes, please doBugteach:: khowbloom:: once upon a timehowbloom:: 200 years ago or soChris OConnor:: true Stevehowbloom:: cotton washowbloom:: something only the rich could howbloom:: affordhowbloom:: it was comfortablehowbloom:: as all get outhowbloom:: it was easily launderedhowbloom:: which meansTimothy Schoonover:: yeah it is!howbloom:: no more lice or bugshowbloom:: but it came from Indiahowbloom:: via the Indian oceanhowbloom:: down to YemenBugteach:: excuse me :0howbloom:: and howbloom:: Omanhowbloom:: ok bug,howbloom:: what is it?howbloom:: should Ihowbloom:: return to the tale?howbloom:: normal folksJeremy1952:: howbloom:: wore wool clothingBugteach:: no joking on my name I am very interested continue pleasehowbloom:: that couldn't be laundered easilyChris OConnor:: Please do Howardhowbloom:: smelledhowbloom:: itchedhowbloom:: irritated the skinhowbloom:: and was a great homehowbloom:: for bugs of all kindshowbloom:: then we had several innovationshowbloom:: remember backhowbloom:: in the days of Henry the 8thhowbloom:: when Henry gotChris OConnor:: I don't personallyhowbloom:: a wild ideahowbloom:: and did something the Turks hadhowbloom:: already donehowbloom:: but multiplied it exponentially?howbloom:: he puthowbloom:: cannons on sailing shipshowbloom:: tons and tons of themChris OConnor:: Ahhhowbloom:: and England went from a lesser powerhowbloom:: in Europehowbloom:: to a world force howbloom:: over the next 200 yearsstevepainter:: military innovationhowbloom:: thanks to its navyhowbloom:: right?Chris OConnor:: Yeshowbloom:: but England needed wood to make its shipsJeremy1952:: with you so farhowbloom:: and the wood in Englandhowbloom:: had been pretty much used uphowbloom:: to keep homes warmstevepainter:: we need oil for our war toys?howbloom:: the country was running out ofhowbloom:: the stuffhowbloom:: now think back to those lazyhowbloom:: sons of bitcheshowbloom:: the aristocracyhowbloom:: what do they talk about incessantlyhowbloom:: in pj wodehouse novels?howbloom:: breedinghowbloom:: breeding thingshowbloom:: how to improve a howbloom:: breed ofhowbloom:: bullshowbloom:: a breed of pigshowbloom:: a breed in the familyhowbloom:: the breeding obsessionhowbloom:: of the English aristocratshowbloom:: gave us Darwin's theoryhowbloom:: of natural selectionMichaelangeloGlossolalia:: sex?howbloom:: and it gave Englandhowbloom:: something morehowbloom:: not sex alonehowbloom:: we're talking early genetic engineeringhowbloom:: the Britishhowbloom:: learned the valuehowbloom:: of mono croppinghowbloom:: of concentrating on just one crophowbloom:: per estatehowbloom:: finding out whichhowbloom:: crop worked besthowbloom:: on the sort of land you hadhowbloom:: and pouring yourhowbloom:: hearthowbloom:: your soulhowbloom:: your energyhowbloom:: into genetically howbloom:: engineering the stuffhowbloom:: via breedinghowbloom:: England neededhowbloom:: wood to build more shipshowbloom:: so they mono cropped treeshowbloom:: they build a new howbloom:: agricultural innovationhowbloom:: calledhowbloom:: are you ready?Chris OConnor:: yeshowbloom:: the plantationhowbloom:: the single crop super producerhowbloom:: par excellencehowbloom:: they raised oak forhowbloom:: mastshowbloom:: they raised, I believeJeremy1952:: Ah! so the plantation was invented to grow trees for warships. Fascinating.howbloom:: fast growing pines forhowbloom:: the less important thingshowbloom:: okhowbloom:: so the British now had ahowbloom:: fleethowbloom:: lethowbloom:: 's go backhowbloom:: to an earlier innovationhowbloom:: allow me to take you to howbloom:: 200 bchowbloom:: ok?howbloom:: wait,stevepainter:: why nothowbloom:: sorryhowbloom:: that's 200 adhowbloom:: now the Romans had been importingBugteach:: khowbloom:: Chinese and IndianJeremy1952:: howbloom:: goods for a very long timehowbloom:: in fact they ranhowbloom:: a heavy balance of paymentsChris OConnor:: :0howbloom:: deficit withhowbloom:: chinahowbloom:: because their noblewomen outdidhowbloom:: each other to wear the besthowbloom:: silk gownshowbloom:: silk was shipped howbloom:: overlandhowbloom:: via the old silk roadhowbloom:: the trip tookhowbloom:: i believehowbloom:: 3 years or sohowbloom:: and was dangerous howbloom:: as hellhowbloom:: so silk cost a fortunehowbloom:: then a clever arabhowbloom:: 400 years before Mohammed'showbloom:: birthhowbloom:: did a very evolutionary thinghowbloom:: he figured outhowbloom:: how to make catastrophehowbloom:: into something positivehowbloom:: opportunityhowbloom:: the catastrophehowbloom:: was the monsoonhowbloom:: whose impact you knowhowbloom:: flooding and destruction, right?howbloom:: but he saw more than carnagehowbloom:: he notice a patternhowbloom:: in the way the monsoons gohowbloom:: for one part of the yearChris OConnor:: yeshowbloom:: the blow northeasthowbloom:: and in the other part of the yearChris OConnor:: TravelChris OConnor:: He used the windshowbloom:: they blow southwesthowbloom:: meanwhile, the ArabsChris OConnor:: and currentshowbloom:: had inventedhowbloom:: something calledhowbloom:: the lateen sailChris OConnor:: yephowbloom:: a triangular sailhowbloom:: you could use thowbloom:: toChris OConnor:: both wayshowbloom:: outwit the windhowbloom:: and tackhowbloom:: you've got it chrisChris OConnor:: very impressive inventionhowbloom:: using shipshowbloom:: equippedhowbloom:: with this sailChris OConnor:: incredible step forward - no longer were we slaves to naturehowbloom:: he realized you could sail to Indiahowbloom:: via a sea bornehowbloom:: shortcuthowbloom:: then wait for the windshowbloom:: to changehowbloom:: and sail back tohowbloom:: Omanhowbloom:: or Qatarhowbloom:: once againhowbloom:: meanwhilehowbloom:: other Arab inventorshowbloom:: had come up with a wayhowbloom:: to create a virtual howbloom:: sea lane howbloom:: across the Arab peninsulahowbloom:: to the Mediterranean seahowbloom:: the didn't dig a canalhowbloom:: they domesticatedhowbloom:: camelshowbloom:: and organized themhowbloom:: in a cargo carrying caravanhowbloom:: the high price the Romanshowbloom:: had paidxilog leftAvatarofPower joinedhowbloom:: for goods from the easthowbloom:: went down dramaticallyhowbloom:: that meant the price of cotton and of silkhowbloom:: and ceramics--howbloom:: teapotshowbloom:: tea cupshowbloom:: saucershowbloom:: and, yesChris OConnor:: welcome Kevinhowbloom:: teahowbloom:: but still only the super rich couldhowbloom:: actually afford thesehowbloom:: these ultra luxuries.howbloom:: now for the British shipsstevepainter:: (a cup of tea sounds good)howbloom:: we'll skip thehowbloom:: Portuguesehowbloom:: who found the sea routehowbloom:: around the tiphowbloom:: of Africahowbloom:: and cut the price of eastern goods in halfhowbloom:: againhowbloom:: the brits acquiredhowbloom:: Indiahowbloom:: as the Jewel in the crown of empirehowbloom:: right?Chris OConnor:: Truehowbloom:: the French built the Suez Canalhowbloom:: all this brought the price of cotton clothing downhowbloom:: considerablyhowbloom:: then the britshowbloom:: used their inventionhowbloom:: the plantationhowbloom:: to raise cottonhowbloom:: in some of the new places they'd conqueredhowbloom:: the islands of the Caribbeanhowbloom:: and the American southhowbloom:: we'll skip the very stickyhowbloom:: and wretched issue of slavehowbloom:: trading, which washowbloom:: invented by the Arabshowbloom:: using those oldhowbloom:: monsoon windshowbloom:: to establish slave tradinghowbloom:: entrepots in east Africahowbloom:: so now we hadhowbloom:: mass production of raw cottonhowbloom:: the price of cotton goods went down againhowbloom:: now the upper middle classstevepainter:: slave trading was invented by the Arabs? - Please get back to that laterhowbloom:: could afford the stuffmoose1567:: pleasehowbloom:: like Jacques Louis David's wife's sisterhowbloom:: whose father had made his moneyJohnny Neuron lefthowbloom:: like Osama's dad hadhowbloom:: in constructionhowbloom:: building the Louvrehowbloom:: in 1800howbloom:: the power loom was inventedhowbloom:: it was England's top howbloom:: secret technologyhowbloom:: now cotton goods were producedhowbloom:: in such profusionhowbloom:: that the price was low enough for thehowbloom:: ordinary man and womanhowbloom:: and a new cry went uphowbloom:: a nation's civilizationhowbloom:: is measured by the amount of soap it useshowbloom:: the death rate went downhowbloom:: why?howbloom:: because you could buyhowbloom:: enough cotton clothinghowbloom:: to actually change ithowbloom:: frequentlyhowbloom:: and unlike woolhowbloom:: you could wash ithowbloom:: but here's the real point of the storyhowbloom:: todayhowbloom:: when folks like my old clienthowbloom:: Stewart Copelandhowbloom:: or my anthropologisthowbloom:: friendshowbloom:: go to Africahowbloom:: in search of the most primitive tribeshowbloom:: with the purest indigenousChris OConnor:: And if anyone has a question for Howard - feel free to throw it out there when he finisheshowbloom:: cultures on this earthhowbloom:: what do they find?Jeremy1952:: Cotton?howbloom:: what do their photos show?howbloom:: yeshowbloom:: people living in squalor and povertyhowbloom:: people making almost no cashhowbloom:: living at allhowbloom:: are wearing cotton t shirtshowbloom:: cotton shortshowbloom:: and cotton hatshowbloom:: the western systemhowbloom:: has elevated the poor and the oppressedTimothy Schoonover joinedhowbloom:: the goal of every religionhowbloom:: we've achieved ithowbloom:: now we have to believe itMichaelangeloGlossolalia:: don't forget Nike logoshowbloom:: to defend ithowbloom:: the system of competition via creativityhowbloom:: rather than competitionhowbloom:: via the gunhowbloom:: competition viahowbloom:: fundamentalist militancyJeremy1952:: So, not to go off on a total tangent, but may I ask a question about the "Lucifer Principle" itself?howbloom:: buying weapons has impoverished the Arab nationshowbloom:: ummm, shouldstevepainter:: go for it Jeremyhowbloom:: we first answer thehowbloom:: question abouthowbloom:: Arabs inventing African enslavement?Chris OConnor:: Surestevepainter:: no - I asked that - let Jeremy goChris OConnor:: We just don't want to let you slip awayBugteach:: yephowbloom:: the Arabs and their wonderful ships were capablehowbloom:: of jihad in Africahowbloom:: they traveled up and down the eastern coastMichaelangeloGlossolalia:: I'm interested in the process of projection...people projecting their own "evil" onto others and becoming immune to communicationhowbloom:: establishing cities like MobassaJeremy1952:: LOL Well, it struck me that the "Lucifer Principle" is the second half of something... the breaking down sidehowbloom:: and languages based on Arabichowbloom:: like SwahiliJeremy1952:: of construction; but there has to be a "building up" side to chip away athowbloom:: you're righthowbloom:: the Lucifer principleChris OConnor:: Good point JeremyJeremy1952:: I'm wondering if the "other side" has a name, an identityhowbloom:: deliberately focused on the negative side of creativityhowbloom:: noChris OConnor:: How could we summarize the Lucifer Principlehowbloom:: alashowbloom:: science is blind to the other sidehowbloom:: which is something I'm working onChris OConnor:: Ahhhowbloom:: I'm working on helping sciencehowbloom:: see the inherentJeremy1952:: Ah.howbloom:: creativity in this cosmoshowbloom:: creativityMichaelangeloGlossolalia:: is there an email forum for Lucifer principle or related?howbloom:: and to find a way to explain ithowbloom:: there's a global brain chat grouphowbloom:: but none that I know of onhowbloom:: the Lucifer principlehowbloom:: creativity is atChris OConnor:: I will give you all the info for the Global Brain chat groupChris OConnor:: I am a memberhowbloom:: the heart of what we have to defendhowbloom:: at this time in historyhowbloom:: why Iraq?howbloom:: that's what I wonderChris OConnor:: Yes, great questionhowbloom:: here's what my Islamic friendMichaelangeloGlossolalia:: so it's really a war between cultural creative and fundamentalists?howbloom:: said the week after 9/11Jeremy1952:: So you truly feel that nature has a direction, a goal; that isn't just metaphor?howbloom:: yes, it's a war between the creative and the destructive force ofhowbloom:: human social evolutionhowbloom:: yes, I feel that nature takes quantumhowbloom:: leaps upwardhowbloom:: in creativityMichaelangeloGlossolalia:: it seems like we put most of our creativity into the machinery of selling things, rather than spreading positive ideas about culturehowbloom:: on a fairly regular basishowbloom:: with us or without ushowbloom:: but if we want to survivestevepainter:: by nature do you mean "human nature"?howbloom:: it will have to be with ushowbloom:: nohowbloom:: I'm talking about a big banghowbloom:: emerging from a singularityhowbloom:: I'm talking about a singularityhowbloom:: emerging from a nothingnesshowbloom:: I'm talking about aChris OConnor:: yes, what is your take on that?MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: I think Muslims look at our culture and they see our fragmentation and our chaotic grouping...should we set a new example by bonding without violence?howbloom:: throbbing soup of high speed particleshowbloom:: a plasma atBugteach:: what about mother earths alter ego?howbloom:: the beginning of the universeChris OConnor:: A singularity coming from nothing makes no sensehowbloom:: when no plasma had ever existed beforehowbloom:: I'm talking about the pressure wavesJeremy1952:: The universe is not obligated to make sense to ushowbloom:: the first musicstevepainter:: MG - I don't think most non-Americans see how we are a group (even though we seem to disagree a lot)moose1567:: [_]Dhowbloom:: that rang that plasma like a gongChris OConnor:: Jeremy - true, but damn I want it toAvatarofPower:: but isn't 'creativity' a human invention? Creativity is just the human definition for a consciousness discovering utility... how does creativity exist as a function of the universe?howbloom:: and I'm talking about 100,000 years laterMichaelangeloGlossolalia:: Steve--as an American I see a lot of aimlessnesshowbloom:: when an extraordinaryhowbloom:: creative leap occurredhowbloom:: protons discoveredChris OConnor:: Avatar - excellent wording - I have to agreeMichaelangeloGlossolalia:: a long term war would give us purpose but would it really bond us or would it make the culture wars toxic?howbloom:: that they were attracted to particlesMichaelangeloGlossolalia:: I think human creativity is similar in many ways to natural processes...evolution being onestevepainter:: but when challenged we form a fairly cohesive grouphowbloom:: only one 1,850th their sizehowbloom:: and atoms emergedMichaelangeloGlossolalia:: artists don't create from a plan, they recombine and sift like nature doesJeremy1952:: But what is driving it? Is it blind evolution, "Santa Fe" principles of self-organization? Or some actual directional, what?Chris OConnor:: Howard - you seem to speak of natures creative forces almost as if there is some sort of sentience or "life" to ithowbloom:: this is the big questionhowbloom:: i do not believe thereMichaelangeloGlossolalia:: I think any system would tend toward greater complexity, at least under the right conditionshowbloom:: is sentience to ithowbloom:: but it has directionChris OConnor:: Howard - pheewwhowbloom:: it is an impulsiveChris OConnor:: Howard - Ok, I am with youhowbloom:: and propulsive forcestevepainter:: I don't believe it has a directionhowbloom:: that produces grandeurBugteach:: the alter ego right?MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: trajectory might be a better wordhowbloom:: it produced atoms from a shouJeremy1952:: Propulsive force... what does that mean?Chris OConnor:: Bug - explain?howbloom:: a huge jump upwardhowbloom:: I know what he means.Chris OConnor:: Ahhhowbloom:: lookChris OConnor:: Howard - so what would fuel this - as Jeremy askedhowbloom:: this cosmos began with one of the biggest energy rushes you can imagineChris OConnor:: Truehowbloom:: it's been taking that energyhowbloom:: and making things ever sinceJeremy1952:: (I can't imagine it)howbloom:: think about ithowbloom:: there was a time whenChris OConnor:: I am so bewildered by the concept of a singularityBugteach:: how said in his book the Satan is mother earths alter ego and is motivating the world nowhowbloom:: there were no things at allJeremy1952:: So what is "it" that "makes"?MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: recombination produces complexity by its nature doesn't it?howbloom:: no matterhowbloom:: no atomsAvatarofPower:: right, Howard, but why is it necessary to define it as creativity?howbloom:: none of the things we take for grantedChris OConnor:: Bug - ahhhhstevepainter:: it had to go somewhere - given infinite time to work withhowbloom:: all popped into beingChris OConnor:: Howard - how the hell could that happen?howbloom:: do you have a better word for it thanhowbloom:: creativity?Chris OConnor:: Steve - true, but did it all begin?MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: there could have been something before the singularity, just nothing we can get a handle onhowbloom:: I could use itJeremy1952:: Aside from gravity and fundamental forces of nature, which is what mainstream science attributes it to?howbloom:: there was pretty obviously a nothingChris OConnor:: Michael - I so agreehowbloom:: with simple rules of its ownAvatarofPower:: as time moves forward, energy is moved around... by probability, more new things will happen and more new arrangements will be found...howbloom:: nohowbloom:: not probabilityhowbloom:: forget probabilityhowbloom:: this is not a totally determined universeChris OConnor:: Michael - I think we don't have a clue when it all comes down to it - there could be multiple universes, and infinite cycle of expansions and collapses...AvatarofPower:: you're telling me it is a sentient creativity rather than a random probabilityhowbloom:: but it is a very constrained universestevepainter:: no one knows Chris - try Guth again for a Big Bang friendly ideahowbloom:: bear with me and let me tell you a tiny tale of universalhowbloom:: creativity, cosmichowbloom:: creativityhowbloom:: and its limitationshowbloom:: its rigid boundariesAvatarofPower:: (yes, Guths inflationary universe is excellent, Steve)Bugteach:: go for ithowbloom:: unless I've worn you out with storiesTimothy Schoonover:: listeninghowbloom:: ok first there is a nothingnessAvatarofPower:: no, please go aheadChris OConnor:: Yes, this is interestinghowbloom:: you and I are sitting around at an outdoorhowbloom:: cafe tablehowbloom:: before the beginning of the universehowbloom:: you are a dreamerhowbloom:: I'm a skeptichowbloom:: you tell me, Howardhowbloom:: just watch outhowbloom:: something's about to happen that you've never seen beforeMichaelangeloGlossolalia:: howbloom:: there's going to be this infinitesimal twisthowbloom:: called a singularityhowbloom:: and from it will burst forthhowbloom:: a new thing that you've never seenJeremy1952:: Sounds like we're drifting into Italo Calvino's territorystevepainter:: what else do you think fueled it, MG?howbloom:: four forces and an energystevepainter:: howbloom:: and I would say to youMichaelangeloGlossolalia:: Chris OConnor:: Michaelhowbloom:: you're nutshowbloom:: you're absolutely crazyhowbloom:: I've been here as long as this nothingnesshowbloom:: has existedhowbloom:: and no self- constructinghowbloom:: self unfolding infinitesimalhowbloom:: blip with almost infinite eagerness and energyhowbloom:: has ever existed before andJeremy1952:: But... but... absolute nothing violates the heisenberg uncertainty principle. howbloom:: it is so improbable and impossible that it never willhowbloom:: then comes the singularity and proves me to be a foolJeremy1952:: Making something inevitable, requiredMichaelangeloGlossolalia:: "nothing" is relatively defined by "things"howbloom:: 100,000 years laterChris OConnor:: Jeremy - maybe the principle doesn't fitMichaelangeloGlossolalia:: "no thing we are familiar with"howbloom:: we are still sitting at our cafe tableChris OConnor:: drinking coffeeJeremy1952:: But true nothing would have an exact momentum - zero - and an a exact location - no where stevepainter:: vacuum violates the uncertainty principle?howbloom:: you've predicted all manner of utterlyhowbloom:: wacko thingshowbloom:: quarksMichaelangeloGlossolalia:: howbloom:: trios of quarksJeremy1952:: Absolutely, Steve. In the real world there is quantum foam.howbloom:: protons stuck together with gluonsChris OConnor:: ewwwhowbloom:: leptonshowbloom:: the whole dealChris OConnor:: okstevepainter:: you always have quantum fluctuations in the vacuumhowbloom:: and I've been stunned andMichaelangeloGlossolalia:: kleptons - the ones that keep stealing the other particleshowbloom:: amazed that you're lunacy has proved trueChris OConnor:: LOLhowbloom:: kleptons, I love it ")MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: feel free to steal my memesBugteach:: hehehowbloom:: ok, pay attention because the universehowbloom:: is about to pull a rabbit out of a hat againChris OConnor:: Yes, Michael is our entertainment at BookTalk - where is Kenny though? I'm not sure how we can define him LOLhowbloom:: I've been watching this plasma bongingChris OConnor:: I'm listeningChris OConnor:: Bonging?howbloom:: for 100,000 yearsmoose1567:: lolhowbloom:: yes, pressure wavesstevepainter:: that explains a lotJeremy1952:: (i hope its not a cud chewing rabbit, though, like the one a certain desert religion came up with)howbloom:: physicists call it musicChris OConnor:: Okhowbloom:: and you sayhowbloom:: Howardhowbloom:: I know you're not going to believe thishowbloom:: but I predict that in a couple of whateverhowbloom:: we substitute for dayshowbloom:: this banginghowbloom:: wanglinghowbloom:: jostlinghowbloom:: ricochetingChris OConnor:: tusslinghowbloom:: super highs speed brothhowbloom:: of particles, constantlyAvatarofPower:: rustling, bustling, tusslinghowbloom:: wangling into each otherhowbloom:: and ricochetinghowbloom:: like bulletsMichaelangeloGlossolalia:: zinginghowbloom:: bashing each other at high NaddiaAoC:: Hehe. This sounds like one of your poems, Kevin. howbloom:: speedhowbloom:: will slow downhowbloom:: and something new will appearmoose1567:: molecular orgyMichaelangeloGlossolalia:: schleppinghowbloom:: something with properties beyond anything we've seenMichaelangeloGlossolalia:: schleptons?howbloom:: protons are going to discoverhowbloom:: an attractionhowbloom:: that makes them glue themselves to electronshowbloom:: these itty bitty thingshowbloom:: thingshowbloom:: that, as I saidhowbloom:: are one 1,850th their sizeChris OConnor:: Moose AvatarofPower:: I don't like this personified 'discover'howbloom:: and I'd say you are nutshowbloom:: you're crazyhowbloom:: I've watched this universe for 100,000 years nowhowbloom:: particles have alwaysstevepainter:: what's a year?howbloom:: bounced off each otherhowbloom:: and they always willhowbloom:: the idea of this dancehowbloom:: that your predictinghowbloom:: this particle mating and romancehowbloom:: is just plain crazyhowbloom:: and the next dayChris OConnor:: Steve - I see your pointhowbloom:: the first electron and protonhowbloom:: slow down enough to meethowbloom:: and sure enoughhowbloom:: they mateTimothy Schoonover:: I'll be damned.howbloom:: and form an atomhowbloom:: with new propertieshowbloom:: radical new thingsJeremy1952:: I think , when you try to visualize and use intuition at the cosmic and /or quantum scale, it is useful to recallhowbloom:: like the followinghowbloom:: bear with meChris OConnor:: okhowbloom:: there has never been matter in this universe beforeJeremy1952:: that our brains evolved for no such purpose; envisioning quantum interactions and atomic forceshowbloom:: you tell me it's going to come fairlyhowbloom:: quicklystevepainter:: good point JeremyJeremy1952:: is a totally alien exercise to our intuition. SO naturally it seems strange to ushowbloom:: and you try to explain matter to mehowbloom:: and once again I think you're loonyMichaelangeloGlossolalia:: "something that matters"howbloom:: especially when you tell mehowbloom:: that it's going to be yankedhowbloom:: together by ahowbloom:: force I've never seenhowbloom:: some nutcase frenzy that you callhowbloom:: gravityhowbloom:: now I really know you've lost itChris OConnor:: Howard - do I sense a 3rd book on the horizon?howbloom:: but what happenshowbloom:: yes, the big bang tangohowbloom:: but first i have to write The HiddenChris OConnor:: That will be the name of the book?Chris OConnor:: Ahhhowbloom:: Heartbeat of America--Reinventing Capitalismhowbloom:: Soul andTimothy Schoonover:: hmmhowbloom:: the Wealth of nationshowbloom:: and I have to do ithowbloom:: for a reason someoneChris OConnor:: I think someone already wrote "The Wealth of nations"howbloom:: mentioned several minutes agoTimothy Schoonover:: That's what I'd like to hear about!!Chris OConnor:: What reason?howbloom:: because we need to know what we're fighting forTimothy Schoonover:: Sam Adams =)Chris OConnor:: Tim LOLTimothy Schoonover:: or somethingTimothy Schoonover:: dohhowbloom:: the only system I know of that's ever elevated theChris OConnor:: Howard - I totally agreehowbloom:: poorhowbloom:: and given them t shirts of cottonMichaelangeloGlossolalia:: is oil conservation really a "personal virtue"?howbloom:: with Nike logoshowbloom:: ithowbloom:: s not matterTimothy Schoonover:: Adam Smith. evenMichaelangeloGlossolalia:: can we have Ben jerry's logos instead?howbloom:: that we're missinghowbloom:: its meaninghowbloom:: its a goalmoose1567:: Islam right?Chris OConnor:: Tim - ROFL I didn't even catch thatMichaelangeloGlossolalia:: Meaning Inc.howbloom:: its idealismhowbloom:: to have idealism, you need to seehowbloom:: clearly thestevepainter:: only if you get Deep Dark Chocolate ice cream too, MGJeremy1952:: Our culture has also given the world Viagra, which, through the law of unintended consequences, is savinghowbloom:: benefits of your systemhowbloom:: we don'thowbloom:: we call it a consumeristJeremy1952:: endangered tigers in Asiahowbloom:: culturehowbloom:: we demean ithowbloom:: this is the only system that haChris OConnor:: Jeremy - those tigers should not be taking Viagrahowbloom:: has ever produced Edited by: Chris OConnorĀ at: 10/30/05 3:55 pm