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Anyone else finished reading the book?

Posted: Wed Nov 27, 2002 9:25 pm
by Ani Osiris
One thing that sorta got me was how Bloom spends the entire book detailing how inevitable and even necessary the pecking order is and the creation of ideas that drive society to compete fiercely and violently - and then, in the last couple pages, basically says this is all bad and humans ought to rise above it, etc. Yeah, ok... "You're screwed and there's nothing you can do about it - now do something about it."That seems to me to be one of the basic conundrums of sociobiology and similar notions, where you suposedly have hard-wired behaviors on the one hand; and on the other you have (it seems to me) the ability to not only make choices in a self-determinate manner, but to make moral choices. If we can contradict our genetic inheritance with our actions, how can you say those actions are hard-wired? It just seems to me that this sort of thing seriously undermines Bloom's argument for a Lucifer Principle being more than analogy.

Re: Anyone else finished reading the book?

Posted: Wed Nov 27, 2002 9:32 pm
by Chris OConnor
Ani:I'm still on page 190. The past two weeks I've spent most of my spare time working on our new site, which I expect to have online within two weeks. Since this is a holiday weekend I do expect to read quite a bit by Monday.Chris Edited by: Chris OConnorĀ  at: 10/30/05 3:51 pm

Re: Anyone else finished reading the book?

Posted: Thu Nov 28, 2002 12:02 am
by ZachSylvanus
The end of the book was a let down....he spent most of it building up to what I was hoping would be this amazing denouement, and I actually accidentally flipped into the credits, expecting more book.:(

Re: Anyone else finished reading the book?

Posted: Thu Nov 28, 2002 12:40 am
by AvatarofPower
2/3... should be done by the end of the week. --Avatar"The computer is the most extraordinary part of Man's technological clothing: it is an extension of our central nervous system. Beside it the wheel is a mere hula-hoop." -- Marshall McLuhan

Re: Anyone else finished reading the book?

Posted: Thu Nov 28, 2002 1:34 am
by NaddiaAoC
I'm on page 110. I'm really enjoying it so far. It's holding my attention well.Cheryl Edited by: Chris OConnorĀ  at: 10/30/05 3:51 pm

Re: Anyone else finished reading the book?

Posted: Thu Nov 28, 2002 1:02 pm
by Ani Osiris
Zach, was it a disappointed because you agree with Bloom and felt he didn't deliver the goods/proof/whatever; or something else?Part of my disappointment is that I'm still unsure about exactly what the Lucifer Principle is... felt that if it is a principle, should be able to formulate it into a precise statement - but I never read one.

Re: Anyone else finished reading the book?

Posted: Thu Nov 28, 2002 6:33 pm
by ZachSylvanus
I mean....Human nature is the result of selfish genes wanting to triumph over all other forms of genes. Yep, got that, makes sense to me.Where are you going with this?Two paragraphs: Despite our genes making us disposed to attacking any non-familial entity, we need to overcome this.O.....kay....?

Re: Anyone else finished reading the book?

Posted: Fri Nov 29, 2002 11:02 am
by LanDroid
Page 199 - When memes collide.I decided a little while ago not to make any more comments until I finished the book, partly because I can't tell where all this is leading. This thread reinforces that decision... I am enjoying it so far though...

Re: Anyone else finished reading the book?

Posted: Sat Nov 30, 2002 12:54 pm
by stevepainter
It's been a while since I read it the first time and at the moment I'm about half way through the second time. I remember stating when I suggested the book that I didn't agree with everything in it. However, in a way that was what I liked about it. It made some good points - it made me think and look at things in a different way. The fact that we're not all nodding our heads in unison is a good thing - not a bad one.I think the "Open Letter" thread is a little harsh. I don't remember the details of Bloom's conclusion, but I remember looking at it as a metaphor. The idea that the universe "wants" to become more complex isn't really much different than Dawkins' idea that genes are "selfish". If you think about it literally, "selfish" implies a sense of "self". Taking the concept literally reduces his point to a wierd "spiritualism" where genetic material is imbued with the essence of angels and demons. It's sometimes difficult to explain a concept without resorting to a metaphor.I'm not trying to make excuses for Bloom. Perhaps I was reading Bloom's conclusion as a metaphor because that's how "I" looked at it, rather than how he meant it. I look forward to chatting with him in the discussion, but (no offense intended) I could think of many other authors I'd like to chat with as much or more. This is an opportunity to exchange ideas with the author of a very thought provoking book. I hope that the author of the "Open Letter" joins us to air his concerns. Perhaps Bloom will confirm his suspicions, but I'd be surprised and dismayed.Steve

Re: Jeremy's a little harsh

Posted: Sat Nov 30, 2002 3:47 pm
by Jeremy1952
Quote:I hope that the author of the "Open Letter" joins us to air his concerns.Why thank you. . . I plan to be there. Quote:The movement of humans into social groups, the tendency of one social organism to swallow another, the rise of the meme, the increase in cooperation