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Howard Bloom chat transcript from March 6th, 2003

#6: Jan. - Feb. 2003 (Non-Fiction)
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Howard Bloom chat transcript from March 6th, 2003

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connected: ezChat version 0.50howbloom:: the lord of the rings trilogyhowbloom:: hi, chrisChris OConnor:: Hello folksJeremy1952 joinedhowbloom:: hi jeremyMichaelangeloGlossolalia:: yeah, great timing for it, with looming war etc.Chris OConnor:: Hey Howard! howbloom:: i have about 30 books in the computerJeremy1952:: Hi Dr. BloomJeremy1952:: welcome back!Chris OConnor:: Howard - were you watching Bush talk the past hour?howbloom:: one of them is "Hit In The Head By Heavy Metal"howbloom:: no, what did he say?MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: I was proud of bush today, he only said "nuclear" a few timesMichaelangeloGlossolalia:: er...nucularhowbloom:: nuculurMichaelangeloGlossolalia:: yeah, that onehowbloom:: so what did he say?Chris OConnor:: Howard - he is giving a speech about why we need to disarm Iraq - preparing for warMichaelangeloGlossolalia:: he's such a PygmalionChris OConnor:: I am totally in support of Bushhowbloom:: ok, so how do you guys feelSephirah Geburah:: When do you plan on having "Hit in the head by heavy metal" available to the masses?! I would love nothing more than to read your wisdom on music! Jeremy1952:: I'm guessing he said, we're gonna have a war, and you can't stop me, neener neener neenerhowbloom:: about the elephant in the roomhowbloom:: the warChris OConnor:: Howard - I feel that if we don't address this problem we will pay for it dearlyMichaelangeloGlossolalia:: I'm hoping it goes perfectly and the Iraqis love uspctacitus:: it's a risk, but it may pay off in the long runMichaelangeloGlossolalia:: I suspect it's gonna be a bit messierhowbloom:: do you want the bloomean view?Jeremy1952:: I think it is essentially a holy war;pctacitus:: yesChris OConnor:: Howard - please....yesJeremy1952:: I think bush is reintroducing...howbloom:: this is a necessary warMichaelangeloGlossolalia:: I might not be so worried if someone other than a fundamentalist Christian were in officeJeremy1952:: but I'll waitpctacitus:: how so?howbloom:: we have three choices ahead of usChris OConnor:: Howard - I think it is toohowbloom:: a pax americanahowbloom:: a world ruled by Americahowbloom:: a pax sinicahowbloom:: a world ruled by chinahowbloom:: or a mad max nightmareMichaelangeloGlossolalia:: you mean a world run by multinational corporations through america howbloom:: the possible end of the human racehowbloom:: whateverpctacitus:: I'll take option #1howbloom:: that's another issuehowbloom:: and an important oneChris OConnor:: Howard - thats what I fear....an end to the human speciesJeremy1952:: I'm all for rule by america... by an ethical, moral americahowbloom:: in three to five years some of the most insane people in the worldJeremy1952:: I dont' think its another issue at allChris OConnor:: Howard - a regression to the Dark Ages or worsehowbloom:: will have nuculur weaponsJohnny Neuron joinedhowbloom:: jeremy, it's an important issue that we can discussChris OConnor:: hey brad - welcomeJeremy1952:: The issue is, what are we becoming, in persuit of elusive "safety"?MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: I fear the mythology of End Times will influence Bush to refuse to help the peace process in Israel. Anyone who signs a peace treaty there is the antichrist according to a large number of Bush supporters.Jeremy1952:: The principles of cooperation.... we are a Defector with a capital D.howbloom:: yes, one of the bloom books that's been waiting in the computer since 1985 is calledMichaelangeloGlossolalia:: why would those people be deterred by us imposing regime change on one country though?howbloom:: the return of the middle agespctacitus:: tell us about itJeremy1952:: The norms of civilization do not inculde atacking foreign countries howbloom:: hang on while I read what you've all said, there's more on why this is a necessary warMichaelangeloGlossolalia:: they do now, jerJeremy1952:: Yes.. return to the middle ages... and Bush is leading the chargehowbloom:: we can't just impose regime changeJeremy1952:: All this jibber jabber about god in every speachMichaelangeloGlossolalia:: Bush's christian hubris frightens me...it's not just the hawkishness, it's the "God on our side" thing.Chris OConnor:: Howard - wowhowbloom:: here's how the evolution of ever larger social forms of organization workhowbloom:: they come together ironically on the basis of a monopoly of forcehowbloom:: the nation state for examplehowbloom:: originally evolvedChris OConnor:: okhowbloom:: because of a new megaweaponhowbloom:: the cannonMichaelangeloGlossolalia:: how about a new organism transcending nations?howbloom:: and because monarchs were able toMichaelangeloGlossolalia:: I feel like I belong to something multinational and organichowbloom:: monopolize cannonryChris OConnor:: How could they do that?howbloom:: as a consequence the kings could batter down the previously impregnable wallscinnamon321 joinedMichaelangeloGlossolalia:: how do you monopolize bioweapons?Jeremy1952:: That's part of it. But nation states are inherently more productive than their predescessorshowbloom:: of nobles who had their own private armiesJeremy1952:: I think the weapons follow the organization, not the other way 'roundhowbloom:: monopoly of power led to a larger peaceChris OConnor:: Howard - you must read like a maniac to be so well educated in so many subjects. I suggest you join BookTalk Chris OConnor:: Hey cinnamoncinnamon321:: hihowbloom:: lemme continueChris OConnor:: okhowbloom:: it's a long thoughtChris OConnor:: okhowbloom:: we're where Europe was in 1905howbloom:: the Kaiser was working like hellMichaelangeloGlossolalia:: I suspect centralization of power will break down at some point and an emergent, transcendent "species identity" will come uphowbloom:: to take the huge economic power his country had built uphowbloom:: and turn it into weaponry that would allow him to outdohowbloom:: the empire-making machineryhowbloom:: he'd seen at the age of fourhowbloom:: when he went to visit his grandmotherhowbloom:: queen victoriaSephirah Geburah:: Howard - With all your jaw dropping credentials, have you ever considered joining any sort of position in government so you can change the beast from the inside? howbloom:: but his weaponry would be more advancedhowbloom:: than what grandma hadChris OConnor:: Good question Sephirahhowbloom:: because his nation was sprinitng aheadSephirah Geburah:: howbloom:: the bottom line is thishowbloom:: if Europe had flattened a bit of Germany in 1905MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: I'd rather be a musician than a politician. People respect musicians howbloom:: the war that entailed would have been over in six monthshowbloom:: instead, there were peace movementsMichaelangeloGlossolalia:: is that an argument for overkill though?howbloom:: cries for negotiatiationhowbloom:: and when the war came, it lasted what seemed like foreverChris OConnor:: yes, it sure didJeremy1952:: Howard, when iraq left its borders, it was squashed like a bughowbloom:: instead of losing 200,000 lives--a terrible, terrible thingMichaelangeloGlossolalia:: in hindsight, killing hitler at birth would have been a moral act...howbloom:: the world lost over 20 millionJeremy1952:: And if it tries "empire buliding" again, it will be squashed again.howbloom:: over 19 million lives could have been savedhowbloom:: if there had been a preemptive warJeremy1952:: There is no question that Hitler should not have been appeased, when he began to attack.howbloom:: the same thing came up in 1936Jeremy1952:: I don't want to live in a world of "preemptive wars", howard.howbloom:: when Hitler took over CzechoslovakiaMichaelangeloGlossolalia:: I worry that we're going to apply "brute force" to a problem requiring finesseChris OConnor:: Bloom - I see your logic...what you are calling for takes strength and foresighthowbloom:: the world cried out for diplomacyhowbloom:: for peaceJeremy1952:: It is the meta-norms of civilzation that ultimately improve humanityZombieHatesYou joinedChris OConnor:: Hey Zombie howbloom:: for salving germany's wounds, addressing its legitimate concernsMichaelangeloGlossolalia:: yeah, game theory gets complex here..it might not work to apply lessons from the past in a linear way to the present...howbloom:: in 1936 hitler was bluffingpctacitus:: This is basic game theory for politicshowbloom:: he didn't have the militar force to back up his deedsChris OConnor:: Michael - I'm sure there are similaritiesZombieHatesYou:: Hey howbloom:: he had, instead, pacifists and peace movementshowbloom:: and a propaganda machineMichaelangeloGlossolalia:: I don't see this as nazi germany...it's more like a tentacled monsterhowbloom:: if the west had taken him onpctacitus:: but there's always someone irrational who wants warJeremy1952:: Exactly. And by running "god" up his flagpole, Bush is defecting from the gamehowbloom:: in 1936 it would have been a two month warZachSylvanus joinedhowbloom:: instead it was a war that killed over 20 millionZachSylvanus:: sorry I'm latepctacitus:: even though you gain more from peaceful cooperationMichaelangeloGlossolalia:: do you think we'll have to bomb north korea too?Jeremy1952:: So, who else attacks whom, once we open the floodgates?howbloom:: preemptive war, that hateful phraseChris OConnor:: Pctactitus - True, but this war doesn't seem to be such a watChris OConnor:: Hey Zachhowbloom:: once again could have saved tens of millions of liveshowbloom:: this time around it won't be so easyJeremy1952:: You have just justified attackign anyone you think is really reaaly bad... which means that the arabs are entirley justifiedhowbloom:: the weapons will be nuclearJeremy1952:: in attacking the US and isreael, right?howbloom:: they already areMichaelangeloGlossolalia:: I think our morale will be greatly damaged if we do things in the wrong way...it's not just power that is a factor, it's what forms of power we can accept using with a clean consciencepctacitus:: This war resembles what Phillip Bobbit calls the Long WarChris OConnor:: Yes, I'd like your opinion on N. Korea...I am rather comfortable in our ability to deal with Iraq.Jeremy1952:: Becuase they think we are really really bad...howbloom:: someone has to assert a primacy, a monopoly of powerMichaelangeloGlossolalia:: to me, it's like a cancer. You can't cut out the tumor...you have to use something subtlhowbloom:: or we will have nuclear weapons hurled at us from Pakistan, fromhowbloom:: Libya, fromMichaelangeloGlossolalia:: saddam is more like a tumor, but al qaeda is something elsepctacitus:: it will keep going until all opposing ideas are crushed completelyhowbloom:: KoreaMichaelangeloGlossolalia:: but how does asserting power prevent anything?howbloom:: and enough nuclear weapons being tossed around in the Mediterranean areaNaddiaAoC joinedMichaelangeloGlossolalia:: if biological weapons become cheap and available to groups without states?Jeremy1952:: Yes. Bush had skilllfully distracted milllions from the fact that he is powerless against the real enemyChris OConnor:: Someone has to play the role of the Alpha male...in the pecking orderhowbloom:: to wipe out humanityNaddiaAoC:: Hi folkshowbloom:: yesChris OConnor:: Hey Cheryl howbloom:: the alpha male is the key to social peaceMichaelangeloGlossolalia:: I see everyone reacting to an apocalyptic fantasy and accelerating it in the processChris OConnor:: Bloom - I think I'm in agreement with youJeremy1952:: So do what israel did... we have intelligence that they are building a breeder reactor? Bomb the damn thinghowbloom:: and he uses force and persuasion and caring to win his placehowbloom:: another example, twoSephirah Geburah:: Oh! Michaelangelo.. Excellent last comment... Jeremy1952:: Ah, persuasion. Now that would be nicehowbloom:: to assert his primacy, Alexander the Great utterly destroyed a city or twoMichaelangeloGlossolalia:: so do you think the US, by playing alpha male, can inspire Arab alpha males to suppress terrorism in their own countries?howbloom:: it was hatefulhowbloom:: morally disgustingChris OConnor:: Howard - But the Alpha male must have a well-defined code of ethicshowbloom:: but it workedMichaelangeloGlossolalia:: there was a movie about the president destroying Baghdad to send a signalhowbloom:: and Pericles ushered in the Golden Age of Athens with an atrocityJeremy1952:: We already destroyed "a city or two", Howard.MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: but I'm not sure we'd be safe after that. States would avoid using nukes...but individual groups? pctacitus:: Deterrence, good flickhowbloom:: flattening a city that tried to wiggle out of the Athenian leagueJeremy1952:: Remember Hiroshima and Nagasaki?MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: it might split the american culture in halfhowbloom:: now we have to do that not becauseMichaelangeloGlossolalia:: and cause a civil war hereJeremy1952:: The firebombing of Dresden?howbloom:: Iraq is a huge menace, it's notMichaelangeloGlossolalia:: I think if we used nukes against a city, it would split our society down the middleChris OConnor:: Michael - I think what Howard believes is that we must behave like the lead dog and demand our way...and self police our behaviorshowbloom:: but because we have to do something that sounds childish and stupichowbloom:: stupidMichaelangeloGlossolalia:: I understand the theoryhowbloom:: we have to set an exampleMichaelangeloGlossolalia:: it's something I've thought about beforehowbloom:: an example Kim Jung Il howbloom:: will pay attention toMichaelangeloGlossolalia:: we have to be the craziest nigga on the block.Chris OConnor:: Jeremy - this is trueMichaelangeloGlossolalia:: that's the theoryhowbloom:: an example Osama will pay attention toMichaelangeloGlossolalia:: how does this work in the inner city though?howbloom:: that Quaddafi will pay attention toJeremy1952:: Oh yea, Osama's paying attention.Chris OConnor:: Howard - exactly...he is scaring the hell out of meMichaelangeloGlossolalia:: the math might be similar, use power in gangs as a modelhowbloom:: the messagi is this--disarm or we will disarm youJeremy1952:: Like the attack on Afghanistan made him stop, right?MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: what if we can't find you and you're suicidal?howbloom:: ok, I have been so busy typing I haven't been able to readChris OConnor:: Jeremy - they forced him to run...they have disempowered him to a degreeZachSylvanus:: I'm tempted to think that we don't have much to worry about from Korea, because of ChinaJeremy1952:: And the message to ther rest of the world is: we can no longer be trusted to play by the ruleshowbloom:: give me two minutes to read what you've said, ok?Sephirah Geburah:: Everybody take 2!! Go get a soda or some water!MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: surepctacitus:: okChris OConnor:: Bloom - sounds goodChris OConnor:: This will make an awesome tran*****Chris OConnor:: LOL Sephirah Sephirah Geburah:: pctacitus:: a little disjointed thoughJeremy1952:: We responded to his attack; we took out ten of his people for every one of oursMichaelangeloGlossolalia:: When you're done reading, I'll share a flash poem I made with words from Global Brain...you have the flash plugin?Chris OConnor:: I am very afraid of N. Korea right now.Chris OConnor:: Michael - OMGGlory Matthews joinedZachSylvanus:: I don't believe China will allow N. Korea to do anything drasticJeremy1952:: Idont' think he will learn a single thing from the US attacking a soverign nation, except maybe that he was rightMichaelangeloGlossolalia:: I've decided to be afraid of everything. It seems prudent howbloom:: i'm afraid of korea tooChris OConnor:: Hey Glory - you're late. Please stand in the corner for 30 minutes. Thanks.howbloom:: yes thye poem, i do have flashMichaelangeloGlossolalia:: www.soulaquarium.net/art/bloom/Johnny Neuron:: My take is North Korea is just saber-rattlingChris OConnor:: N. Korea is behaving irrationally...without provocationChris OConnor:: Johnny - I sure hopepctacitus:: game theory againJohnny Neuron:: They don't want to be blasted to the stone ageGlory Matthews:: Chris, pfffft! You should be honored, I just got back from the hospital. Jeremy1952:: Without provoction? I hardly think soZachSylvanus:: Without provocation?MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: read the other day that Daniel Ellsberg was a game theorist when he worked at RANDJeremy1952:: First of all, we promised not to demonize his countryJeremy1952:: then asshole Bush comes out with the "axis of evil" slap in the faceChris OConnor:: Michael - very cool!ZachSylvanus:: The agreement was, they shut down their nuclear reactors, we send them fuel.ZachSylvanus:: We stopped sending them fuelhowbloom:: who made that poem--ahhowbloom:: michaelJeremy1952:: Then we prepare for a war of agression against iraq; what are the other nationsZombieHatesYou:: That was very cool, Huahua.MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: it's my faultZombieHatesYou:: Err...Michael. howbloom:: it is, excuse my language, utterly fucking gorgeoushowbloom:: m8iMichaelangeloGlossolalia:: thanks zombZombieHatesYou:: MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: thanks howardJeremy1952:: who we , rather bush, deliberately insults supposed to make of that?howbloom:: michael, what do you do for a lving?Johnny Neuron:: Jeremy: true, but I think NK has gone a little farther than Bush in terms of propagandaMichaelangeloGlossolalia:: I'm a budding web designerhowbloom:: I want to do more things like that myselfChris OConnor:: Jeremy - Yes, this is what triggered the N. Koreans to do what they're doing...but it is irrational. Bush had no idea they would act so crazyhowbloom:: I've turned the whole history of the cosmos into poetryMichaelangeloGlossolalia:: waiting for my girlfriend to move here from sydney so we can start a businessChris OConnor:: LOL BloomJeremy1952:: Law of unindtended consequencesMichaelangeloGlossolalia:: howard--I'd be happy to help you out with flashpctacitus:: NK is more like SpartaJeremy1952:: A good reason to be cautiouspctacitus:: closed offhowbloom:: severall musicians are talking about making it into music--Joan Jett and David WasJohnny Neuron:: NK has a very long history of doing this sort of thingMichaelangeloGlossolalia:: my email is on my site if you ever want to contact meJeremy1952:: How , by the way, are they acting crazy?howbloom:: and I want to do a Big Bang Tango stage showChris OConnor:: Jeremy - yesMichaelangeloGlossolalia:: I'd like to see what you're talking about howardChris OConnor:: Jeremy - hind sight is always 20/20howbloom:: what you've done, michael, is a step in that directionhowbloom:: a very powerful stepMichaelangeloGlossolalia:: sounds interesting...it reminds me of a book I read a while back, but I forgot the titleMichaelangeloGlossolalia:: thank youhowbloom:: have you seen, no of course you haven't its privateJeremy1952:: We are threatening Iraq; we put NK and iraq in the same cateogory; they are preparing an nuclear defenseMichaelangeloGlossolalia:: that's the sort of thing I'd like to do more ofJeremy1952:: against a nuclear power that has gone mad.MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: lol MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: well thenJohnny Neuron:: Is it defense or provocation?Jeremy1952:: It is the U.S. that is acting "crazy"howbloom:: howardbloom.net/attraction_repulsionhowbloom:: ?Chris OConnor:: To those that don't know, Howard Bloom is famous in the music industry and worked with Rolling Stone magazine and stars like Prince and Michael JacksonMichaelangeloGlossolalia:: hey, it worked this timeJohnny Neuron:: Sending missles over the ocean on the day of the S Korean presidential inaugurationZachSylvanus:: The thing that concerns me most about this series of wars on evil is the patriot actsJohnny Neuron:: Virtually shooting down our fighter jethowbloom:: well, I was often in the offices of Rolling Stone but I didn't work for the magazineChris OConnor:: Zach - explainJeremy1952:: Well, it isn't hindsight yet; the war hasn't started yet. Forsight: we are fucking up the worldMichaelangeloGlossolalia:: I had an acid trip in my 20's that would have made a great movie. It had science rap as the sountrack ZachSylvanus:: The patriot acts are ostensibly to protect our freedomSZachSylvanus:: And ourselveshowbloom:: our best alley right now in defending our freedoms from the patriot acthowbloom:: is a man who has bush by the ballsChris OConnor:: Jeremy - I disagree, but sure hope I'm not wrong.howbloom:: Pat Robertson, my old nemesisChris OConnor:: Pat deserves to be in prisonZachSylvanus:: The Patriot Act 2 involves overturning Katz vs.....the federal government, I thiknJohnny Neuron:: Really Howard? How so?MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: just tell people Ashcroft ordered a buttload of microchips ZachSylvanus:: er, thinkSephirah Geburah:: - Howard - If you could give one piece of advice for someone seriously entering the music industry, what would it be?Chris OConnor:: anyone who dumbs down the general population is a criminalhowbloom:: Pat Robertson made two key statements a month or two agohowbloom:: oneJeremy1952:: That's the other thing that scares the shit out of me; suppose we win the peace as well as the war... but havehowbloom:: look at the violence in the Koran, stop papering it overpctacitus:: arrest all the teachers thenhowbloom:: and twoJeremy1952:: turned into a theocracy by thencinnamon321:: I agree Chris.NaddiaAoC:: Yeah, the general population is dumb enough.howbloom:: our civil rights have never been in greater dangerChris OConnor:: Jeremy - Yes, I am worried about that tooZachSylvanus:: Howard, that's not really a viable argumentJohnny Neuron:: Look at all the violence in the BibleJeremy1952:: If we destroy our liberties to win a war, what have we won?MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: the bit of poetry at the end of your attraction page is verra nicehowbloom:: we must protect them for all we're worthChris OConnor:: Cinnamon howbloom:: yes, the bible is one of the most violent books aroundZachSylvanus:: We can't argue that they're evil because of their bibleChris OConnor:: Bloom - I very much agreeMichaelangeloGlossolalia:: I want an army of mimes at my disposalZachSylvanus:: Ours isn't any betterpctacitus:: there is a book on the Battles of the Biblecinnamon321:: The general population is ignorant, not stupi.howbloom:: so is the founding story of western civilization--the Iliad and the OdysseyChris OConnor:: lol Michaelhowbloom:: and so is the founding story of inidahowbloom:: the MahavarataChris OConnor:: Bloom - I've only read some of bothpctacitus:: don't forget Hesiod Howardhowbloom:: all are filled with genocideMichaelangeloGlossolalia:: how do you maintain control in a fluid chaotic system?howbloom:: with the demonization of other human beingsJohnny Neuron:: Howard: how do you feel about the posturing the US is taking in relation to the other great powers such as Germany, France and Russia?Chris OConnor:: Julian James posits that our species lacked consciousness at the time of both piecesJeremy1952:: I've found cascade works well, Michaelhowbloom:: systems are hierarchical at every level of the cosmosMichaelangeloGlossolalia:: I want to get at the root of projecting evil in all people...MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: jeremy--explainhowbloom:: animate and pre-animateChris OConnor:: yesZombieHatesYou:: I'm quite hestitant to call Pat Roberston an ally of mine. I think he's got other things moving him...Things I'd personally not want around me.MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: what cascade are we initiating exactly?ZachSylvanus:: afk a few minutes....howbloom:: and right now we need what some of you guys have saidJeremy1952:: To control a chaotic fluid system. Pour in a little cascade.MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: the end-timers scare me in generalChris OConnor:: what was that?howbloom:: the craziest niggah on the blockChris OConnor:: hmmmhowbloom:: the alpha maleChris OConnor:: ahhMichaelangeloGlossolalia:: cascade bleach? lolhowbloom:: on a global basisChris OConnor:: explain Howardhowbloom:: so we can continue an incredible progress we've madeNaddiaAoC:: Me too, Michael.MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: when rock stars rule the world, we'll be finehowbloom:: via cell phones and the wwwMichaelangeloGlossolalia:: politicians trying to be rock stars doesn't work for mehowbloom:: we are so global it's amazinghowbloom:: and we're about to become even more soMichaelangeloGlossolalia:: I got a book called Smart Mobs...need to read thatChris OConnor:: Howard - if we could conquer the barbarians our species could do incredible things...ohh..and also conquer mysticismhowbloom:: my friends who marched for peace a week agocinnamon321:: *laughs at the thought of a politician trying to be a rock star*Jeremy1952:: Yea! David Bowie for president! Vote for Clinton 'cause he plays the saxhowbloom:: were amazed and exaltedhowbloom:: by the fact that they were marching simultaneously in 60 citiesMichaelangeloGlossolalia:: cinnamon, they DO. Politicians use PR consultants who study what makes entertainers popular...then they apply that to themselves.Chris OConnor:: Howard - mob mentalityMichaelangeloGlossolalia:: nodding at howardhowbloom:: they were living off the fruit that hierarchical violence produceshowbloom:: peachowbloom:: peaceMichaelangeloGlossolalia:: that's the premise of Smart Mobshowbloom:: relax the hierarchy too greatlyMichaelangeloGlossolalia:: groups organizing spontaneously NaddiaAoC:: LOL JeremyChris OConnor:: Bloom - wow...excellent pointhowbloom:: and we will have an end to cell phones the www electricityhowbloom:: social organizationcinnamon321:: Michael, I know, I was merely having a thought of the stereotypical poltician in kiss garb singing. howbloom:: stores and grocerieshowbloom:: let me tell you the worst case scenariohowbloom:: or one of thempctacitus:: okhowbloom:: oki?MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: I was wondering for a while if the species has some kind of spontaneous organizing program that causes a breaking open of the tribal identity and a larger sense of familyMichaelangeloGlossolalia:: okhowbloom:: you are OsamaMichaelangeloGlossolalia:: lol ZombieHatesYou:: I knew Michael was Osama.Chris OConnor:: Howard - I'm in complete agreement. I'm a bit of a pessimist though...and fear we will never succeed in controlling the rampant idiocy of the masses. I feel our downfall is inevitableMichaelangeloGlossolalia:: no, don't go blowing anything up for me thankshowbloom:: you know that you are building your stardom, your influencehowbloom:: via prladyfractal joinedladyfractal:: Good evening all!howbloom:: and you know that the biggest pr stunt you've pulledMichaelangeloGlossolalia:: hi fractal Johnny Neuron:: I tend to agree ChrisZombieHatesYou:: Hey Frachowbloom:: is the destruction of the world trade centercinnamon321:: hey frachowbloom:: ok?pctacitus:: yeshowbloom:: following this?pctacitus:: yesMichaelangeloGlossolalia:: he wants a revolution in pakistanChris OConnor:: okladyfractal:: Hey Michael! Hey Zombie.Chris OConnor:: I'm with yahowbloom:: your next step is thisChris OConnor:: Hey LadyfractalChris OConnor:: Jeremy1952:: Howard is expoinding "worst case scenario", fractalladyfractal:: Hi Chris. howbloom:: nuke twelve major cities in the united statesladyfractal:: thanks jeremy.NaddiaAoC:: Hi Ladyhowbloom:: basically eliminate the usaChris OConnor:: Howard - we would be in the Dark Ages overnighthowbloom:: turn it into a glowing wasteland to set an examplehowbloom:: to show that you are Osama the Greathowbloom:: that God is all powerfulChris OConnor:: And this "worst case scenario" is a very real possibilitypctacitus:: that would crash the world economy overnighthowbloom:: and that nonbeleievers should tremble at your feetChris OConnor:: pctactus - very trueJohnny Neuron:: Israeli newspapers reported this morning that Osama bin Laden has been capturedpctacitus:: kill tens of millionshowbloom:: you do not have to worry about nuclear fallout or nuclear winterhowbloom:: why?Sephirah Geburah:: Ha! That could never happen! We where promised to have a missle defense shield! (hehe... Yes, im being sarcastic)ladyfractal:: johnny: that hasn't been confirmed anyplaceJeremy1952:: if he could have done it, he would have done it. No way he would have settled for jet fuel if he could have gotten hold of nukeshowbloom:: because you have Allah on your sideJohnny Neuron:: lady: truehowbloom:: and to quote one of Osama's alleys, this earthChris OConnor:: Johnny - Hmm...I'll believe that wheh I see his head on a stakehowbloom:: is a mere speck of dust in Allah's eyeMichaelangeloGlossolalia:: Alternatively: you are a fundamentalist Christian with the best of motives...things get sticky and you feel compelled to use a nuclear first strike...howbloom:: it is expendablepctacitus:: if you die you go to paradise anywayhowbloom:: next stepMichaelangeloGlossolalia:: as believe the right wing christians...God will give us a new earthpctacitus:: right?Chris OConnor:: Howard - You're making me want to read the Koran/Quranhowbloom:: in Islam these days the big subject of conversation is the reconquest of EuropeChris OConnor:: ...just to understandhowbloom:: you see, God promised that Islam would triumphhowbloom:: in two major placesJeremy1952:: Yea, the difference, as Michael implied, is that Bush actually has nukesladyfractal:: howard-- how dangerous do you think it is that all three monotheistic faiths seem to be driving all-out for war and *at least* two of those three have nukes?howbloom:: Constantinople and RomeChris OConnor:: Howard - and the Koran clearly states that conquest of infidels is Islams destinyMichaelangeloGlossolalia:: book religions really poisoned the planet...I keep telling them it's idolatry...but they just...don't...lisetnAvatarofPower joinedChris OConnor:: Avatar!Chris OConnor:: Welcomehowbloom:: it took 700 years before the prediction about constantinople fell, but allah came through, right?ladyfractal:: michael: no, of course not, they're too busy reading their holy booksAvatarofPower:: hiya chrishowbloom:: and now allah is bound to deliver Romehowbloom:: which means all of Europehowbloom:: nuke the us andhowbloom:: europe will capitulateMichaelangeloGlossolalia:: this allah character needs therapyDocNancy:: Howard, you need to write all this down and publish it.howbloom:: it will beg for surivivalJeremy1952:: Osama is one dangerous sonofabtich. Terrorists are an infection on the planet. No argument there... so pctacitus:: we need to pull a St Jerome and we write the religious texts thenhowbloom:: and be willing to live in justic and purityhowbloom:: according to god's law shariaJeremy1952:: we should be fighting terrorists, not picking a target we think we can hit, and ignoring the enemy.howbloom:: and as part of an islamic imperium that's globalMichaelangeloGlossolalia:: women will be forced to veil their nipples in public (Johnny Neuron:: Howard: not all Muslims would agree with these tacticshowbloom:: here's another important bit of Osama's thinkingMichaelangeloGlossolalia:: Girls Gone Wild will be a thing of the past...Johnny Neuron:: Some are far more liberal and peaceful than thathowbloom:: nation states are a barbarous western creationJohnny Neuron:: Dare I say mosthowbloom:: god says that the umma is universalMichaelangeloGlossolalia:: empathy is universalhowbloom:: it is a continuous planethowbloom:: a planet without boundariesMichaelangeloGlossolalia:: it is a conscious planetChris OConnor:: Jeremy - don't you think Saddam has something planned with his WoMD?MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: osama is on to somethingladyfractal:: howard: Oh I see where this is going...which means a Pax Islamhowbloom:: living under God's own lawJeremy1952:: Don't know, Chris. MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: chris, a trapped animal will do some crazy thingshowbloom:: national boundaries separating afghanistan, egypt, syria, malaysia, these are artificial slicesMichaelangeloGlossolalia:: I'm wondering if Bush is unconsciously trying to provoke attacks against ushowbloom:: designed to weakine the ummahhowbloom:: in other worlds osamoJeremy1952:: I think the message should be this: use one, try to use one, and you get slapped like a mosquitoJohnny Neuron:: I think the key might be for the US to allign with the more moderate side of the Muslim worldMichaelangeloGlossolalia:: use a nuke to kill a mosquito and you may face impeachmenthowbloom:: osama's interpretation of Islam makes the world one global caliphatehowbloom:: Osama, the wireless warriotpctacitus:: what moderate side?Jeremy1952:: But the message that we attack regardless?howbloom:: has a clear, clear visionhowbloom:: of a global new world orderpctacitus:: Where is it?MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: I believe in a species unconscious program that will overrule the divisions of nations and religions...but whether that can stop destruction is another thingpctacitus:: I haven't seen it.Sephirah Geburah:: Damnit... Why in the hell cant we have people like Howard for President?!?!? (sigh)Johnny Neuron:: There is definately a moderate portion of Muslims who are opposed to terrorismhowbloom:: so we have the choices of living under an islamic hegemony, one in which most of us here would be deadJohnny Neuron:: I've talked with some of themhowbloom:: and pax amercanaChris OConnor:: Jeremy - Saddam is a sick bastard who has lined up his own people and gunned them down....and poisoneed themJeremy1952:: Oh my god, Sephirah, no way!Johnny Neuron:: Some are US allieshowbloom:: or a pax sinicaMichaelangeloGlossolalia:: the limbic systems of the world are feeding backNaddiaAoC:: LOL Sephirahladyfractal:: howard: Laid out like that, it certainly seems to be a very clear vision. I have a question for you...Sephirah Geburah:: hehepctacitus:: like Saudi arabia?howbloom:: and those of us who try to stop this war as we did in 1905Jeremy1952:: Yes, Chris, this is true. Jeremy1952:: And?howbloom:: and in 1936howbloom:: will have blood on our handsChris OConnor:: Jeremy - we owe it to the Iraqi people to remove the tyrantJeremy1952:: Oh bullshit.Johnny Neuron:: So you are for a war with Iraq Howard?howbloom:: the blood of between 200 million and six billion human beingsMichaelangeloGlossolalia:: that's a moral inversion though...the ones who kill are heroes and the ones who don't kill are killers...howbloom:: that's my speech, now let me read what youhowbloom:: 've been sayingladyfractal:: howard: okayChris OConnor:: Ladyfractal - what was the question?MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: what if we trigger something just as bad as what we're trying to avoid? we'll have blood on our hands then tooJeremy1952:: There are dictators all over the world; we've defended much worse, time and again.howbloom:: I know Jeremy is going to totally disagreeNaddiaAoC:: Chris: Are you saving this chat periodically?Chris OConnor:: Micahel - should we freeze out of fear?MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: what if the lessons we're learning from history fail to work in a global system that approaches viscosity?Chris OConnor:: Cheryl - yep, no worriesladyfractal:: chris: well, my first question has to do with the three monotheistic religions, two of which are *confirmed* members of the nuclear club goign to war.MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: linear thinking may not be the trick hereNaddiaAoC:: Ok goodhowbloom:: To answer Johnny's question yes, bring on this war as rapidly as possibleMichaelangeloGlossolalia:: we may be playing chess on a Go boardhowbloom:: despite the fact that I hate warcinnamon321:: according to mass media reports i see that iraqis do not like saddams leadership, but since he is a dictator many of them fear to speak out unless they leave the country. perhaps if we do not go to war they will overthrow saddam themselves.Johnny Neuron:: I agreehowbloom:: no killing of a single human being is justifiedZachSylvanus:: back, sorryhowbloom:: Saddam is a distraction, an example, that's allJeremy1952:: To say "war on iraq is good for iraqis" ignores the little detail of the 100,000 or more of them who will DIE in the war.ladyfractal:: chris: My second question has to do with with people in the West not understanding that Islam is a *fundamentally* different culture/civilization and not one most of us would feel good living under.Johnny Neuron:: But I feel that the US must do it's best to not make this a "war against Muslims"DocNancy:: yes, but how does oil enter into all this, and it does.Jeremy1952:: If they wanted to die, they could oppose Saddam themselvesladyfractal:: chris: but I'll hold that oneJohnny Neuron:: Boundries must be set; demarcations madehowbloom:: hang on a second, let's discuss the iraqis who will diChris OConnor:: Cinnamon - the problem is every time a coup is attempted Saddam makes such an example of the perpetrators that the whole nation lives in mortal fear of even appearing to be anti-SaddamZombieHatesYou:: Perhaps I am not following this like I should be, but I'm not sure how bringing on the war with Iraq as fast as possible will in turn harm Osama's 'vision.' howbloom:: saddam has deliberately put his weapons under schools and hospitalshowbloom:: one story out of England says that he hiredAvatarofPower:: Jeremy.... how could they possibly stand up to the current iraqi regimeMichaelangeloGlossolalia:: so will the arab world blame us for civilian deaths? Edited by: Chris OConnor  at: 6/7/05 1:47 pm
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Re: Howard Bloom chat transcript from March 6th, 2003

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howbloom:: western experts to build a subjway system under baghdad and is using it toChris OConnor:: Jeremy - But 100,000 dead now to save 4 million in the long run. I'm not saying I agree, but I think this is Howards pointladyfractal:: michael: you *bet* they willMichaelangeloGlossolalia:: will the iraqis really be "dancing in the street"?Jeremy1952:: Well, they can't. I'm not saying they should. I'm saying, they'll be just as dead if we kill themhowbloom:: shuttle his weapons of mass destruction around on trainsZombieHatesYou:: Of course, Michael...We're the Big Bad Guy...MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: Chris--but how accurate IS that math?Johnny Neuron:: What are the chances of the US using nuclear weapons against Iraq?MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: will we become the evil we fear? will our culture survive that?AvatarofPower:: very, very, very, very slim, Johnnyhowbloom:: a contact of mine in the State Department, an Islam expert who has spent most of his adult life in Islamic nationsMichaelangeloGlossolalia:: moral ambiguity broke a lot of heads open in the 60'sJeremy1952:: The thing is, chris, the 100,000 dead now is almost a sure thing; the assertiion that less willdie in the long runChris OConnor:: Michael - Approximately 87.3% of all statistics are made up on the spot howbloom:: says that the bomb shelter filled with civilians we devastatedcinnamon321:: lol ChrisJeremy1952:: with the war than without it is extremely uncertainhowbloom:: was a cover for the bunkers belowladyfractal:: johnny: depends upon whether or not the Iraqi military uses them on US troops and how serious teh casualties are from such an attack.MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: I worry about what our actions will do to our culture. The "culture wars" could become volatile. howbloom:: can I throw in another fact about the ultimate Osama scenario?pctacitus:: okSephirah Geburah:: Yep!howbloom:: which can happen with or without osamaChris OConnor:: Please dohowbloom:: pakisthowbloom:: has the Islamic bombladyfractal:: johnny: if the Iraqis use them and if there are high casualties, US doctrine dictates answering WoMD in kindChris OConnor:: Islamci bomb?Chris OConnor:: Hmmmhowbloom:: the nuclear bomb all Islam feels is God's giftChris OConnor:: thats punnyhowbloom:: to the Islamic world, not just to one countryMichaelangeloGlossolalia:: we need to arrest this God/Allahhowbloom:: Pakistan also hashowbloom:: three submarinesChris OConnor:: Michael - I agreehowbloom:: very special submarinesNaddiaAoC:: Michael: I agree, but I think you'll have a problem finding big enough handcuffs.ZachSylvanus:: What's your point?howbloom:: stealth submarines, next generation submarinesChris OConnor:: Nuke subs?ladyfractal:: michael: would LOVE to go back and time and slap whoever thought up monotheism upside their foolish headZachSylvanus:: It's an arms race, Howard, you should know thatZachSylvanus:: Keep up or fall behindMichaelangeloGlossolalia:: you mentioned these scenarios before...I'm wondering what the rest of us chess pieces should be doing in the midst of this global chess/go game?howbloom:: built with French technologyZachSylvanus:: It's merely an evolution of civilizationshowbloom:: and it has the shipyard to build moreMichaelangeloGlossolalia:: yeah, monotheists don't play well with othersZachSylvanus:: Nobody wants to be the losing party, giving in to selectionhowbloom:: these are missile carriers and pakistan also hashowbloom:: medium range ballistic missileshowbloom:: now imagine that Osam is dead or arrestedChris OConnor:: Howard - are you proposing we add Pakistan to the "Axis of Evil?"MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: most of us won't be able to influence all this very much...but what kinds of things can we do with our little bit of the superorganism?howbloom:: and you are a fierce OsamaChris OConnor:: Okhowbloom:: fanhowbloom:: a protegeMichaelangeloGlossolalia:: Chris--they will after Musharraf gets assassinatedladyfractal:: howard: are you saying that it is no longer a question of "if" but a question of "when" the united states has a city evaporated?Jeremy1952:: (the very protege that the U.S. helped him recruit, but I digress)howbloom:: you lead his wireless warriors in something that is likely to happen any day nowNaddiaAoC:: Monotheism is like King of the Hill. My God can beat up your god.howbloom:: the overthrow of Pervez MusharrefChris OConnor:: Jeremy - you're right thoughhowbloom:: you now have three subs with 10,000 mile rangesMichaelangeloGlossolalia:: monotheism ate my homeworkhowbloom:: you can now nuke any city in AmericaNaddiaAoC:: LOL MichaelJohnny Neuron:: Forgive my skeptical ide: but this is the "ultimate" Osama scenario...not the likely scenario; Pakistan remains a strong US allyhowbloom:: either from the Atlantic coastChris OConnor:: 10k is long enough to hit anywhere from the oceanshowbloom:: or from the pacific coasthowbloom:: yesladyfractal:: johnny: strong is not the word that I think I would useChris OConnor:: 27k is world circ I believeMichaelangeloGlossolalia:: I say we nuke our own cities in defiance.Sephirah Geburah:: Michaelangelo! You bring up a great question of "What can we do" I suggest we base a long term forum discusion around that.... There are so many beautiful and powerful minds gathered on this website... We just need to establish some goals and focus...Chris OConnor:: Michael - omghowbloom:: and Osams says "we love death more than you love life"Jeremy1952:: And I think it supports my side more than howards anyway... to show that other countries are dangerous; yes;MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: I agree sephhowbloom:: you westerners are degeneratesChris OConnor:: Howard - exactly...this scares the shit out of meJohnny Neuron:: It was Pakistani officials that brought in the mastermind of the 9/11 attackshowbloom:: you turn your women into prosititutesJeremy1952:: that is exactly why we have to play nice... why we have to promote cooperationhowbloom:: you let them parade their legs on the streetshowbloom:: and you are foolishladyfractal:: johnny: Musharref is playing a very cagey political game because he thinks it will A> keep him in power and B> give him some legs against the IndiansNaddiaAoC:: LMAO Michael. You're a nut!howbloom:: you only have two or three children per familyMichaelangeloGlossolalia:: in the middle of all these worst case scenarios, I'd like to at least play some fun games with culture howbloom:: we treat our women properlySephirah Geburah:: I feel so helpless as much as I care about these issues...Chris OConnor:: Sephirah - you have the ability to create a thread about anything you want...and I think we would all like to discuss this furtherladyfractal:: johnny: But Pakistan is an ally of convenienceMichaelangeloGlossolalia:: we treat our women properly ?howbloom:: we veil them and keep them in the homecinnamon321:: IMHO the problem that people have is lack of exposure to other cultures. I think if more individuals were exposed to people of different cultures and had positive experiences we wouldn't have as many problems.howbloom:: we free them from indecencyJohnny Neuron:: But an ally nontheslessChris OConnor:: (Now how do we get Howard to pop in once and awhile and post? hmmm)ladyfractal:: howard; shouldn't that be "we treat women like *property*"pctacitus:: The horror and the implacable nature of the Wars of Religion was not only that the soldiers on each side believed Heaven awaited them if they fell in battle, they also believed that they owed it to their adversaries to send them to hell. - Ernle Bradford, The Great Siege: Malta 1565howbloom:: and we make them pregnant just as god wants them to beSephirah Geburah:: neat! I will do soJeremy1952:: Mabye it would be worse, cinnamon.Sephirah Geburah:: heheAvatarofPower:: exactly Johnny... i think there's a serious differnece between the Islamic Fundamentalist world and the more moderate muslimsMichaelangeloGlossolalia:: howard will be magnetically attracted to our group, he cannot resistChris OConnor:: Cinnamon - I totally agree!MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: he will be assimilatedhowbloom:: so we have four wives with severn children eachJeremy1952:: Maybe if the west new how fucked up islamic culture really is, there'd be more hate crimesJohnny Neuron:: Avatar: Thank you!Johnny Neuron:: A huge differencehowbloom:: and every mother who believes in Allah is willing to sacrifice three of her childrenhowbloom:: as martyrs for allahSephirah Geburah:: hehehehe and our western culture ISNT f*cked up?!AvatarofPower:: BUT... that differernce has the potential to rapidly disappearMichaelangeloGlossolalia:: howard, have you read any of DeMause's stuff?Jeremy1952:: Yea, the moderates who hack children's vaginas up with dullknivesJohnny Neuron:: When we slip into the fundamentalist mindset, I worryladyfractal:: jeremy: that isn't going to happen suga'...most college educated Westerners have NO sense of what they are apart of or what they are tearing downhowbloom:: more than willing, she celibratses the victory of their deathZombieHatesYou:: I think when we denounce such things as how the Muslims "treat their women," we are falling into the same trap that we are saying we despise about *them.*howbloom:: so if we nuke you and you retaliate, it will be uselesscinnamon321:: Jeremy, Islamic culture is fucked up to us because we didnt grow up with it. American culture is fucked up to Muslims who know nothing about it.AvatarofPower:: the moderates who hack childern's penises up, what?MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: I heard of an interesting program that connects Israelis and Palestinians by phonehowbloom:: wipe out afghanistan, we don't carehowbloom:: we can afford to lose 200 million to 400 million peopleJeremy1952:: The lovely arabs who murder rape victims and celebrate the rapistsladyfractal:: jeremy: when you have college-educated Westerners, decrying the Enlightenment and saying that scientific rationalism is just *one* in a number of equally valid ways of viewing the world, you know we're in troublehowbloom:: in order to assert god's willMichaelangeloGlossolalia:: so we threaten to nuke mecca, right?DocNancy lefthowbloom:: and to do what he has ordered us toJohnny Neuron:: Nuke Mecca? Come onhowbloom:: torture you and annihilate youJeremy1952:: I reject your relativism, cinnamon. there are specific actions which are wrong.howbloom:: two words he has used in the KoranChris OConnor:: Zombie - good pointcinnamon321:: Not all Arabs do. There are more liberal Arabs in many places.MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: hey, some consultant close to Bush once talked about nuking meccahowbloom:: any person who does not abide by those two words is a slacker howbloom:: Allah will never forgivehowbloom:: allah demands that you fight and kill on his behalfMichaelangeloGlossolalia:: we need to send internet porn to the Islamic world and expose fundamentalist muslims who download ithowbloom:: those who stay behind and wiatpctacitus:: such a kind deityhowbloom:: for the West to topple of its own mightZachSylvanus:: No less kind than any deity of our own historyZombieHatesYou:: So, I think I've got this now. This is a matter of God. They think they have God on their sides...that God will protect them. So they have no fear. Nothing we can do to them is going to deter them. Allah demands they kill the infidel...howbloom:: will be damend and will never see the fruits of paradiseMichaelangeloGlossolalia:: the knights of the crusades killed to gain forgivenessMichaelangeloGlossolalia:: people will do anything to feel pureJohnny Neuron:: But Howard...among all three great monotheisms you have your right wingers and your left wingers....the left wingers have always been in a minorityhowbloom:: ok, now let me read your thoughts for a bitcinnamon321:: I do agree that they way rape victims are treated in certain Middle Eastern areas is wrong, I just think a lot of Arabs probably think it is too.howbloom:: i've been typing my fingers offladyfractal:: zombie: I understand the point you are making...but I have to say that I disagree with it. It *may* be utterly imperialist for me to believe that women have a right to self-determination, but I cannot back down off of that ideal.MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: let's all convert to islam. Sephirah Geburah:: I remember reading a sobering exerpt in the Lucifer Principle about the Islam culture, and the sleeping giant that it is... When do you believe this giant will wake up, stretch his arms, and get some breakfast?MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: then we can assimilate them ZombieHatesYou:: Frac: I'm not saying I agree with how they treat their women. I am just saying that denouncing that at every turn and insisting you are right...is the same thing they are doing.MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: seph--when we appear weakenedJohnny Neuron:: I'm not ready to brandish the Muslim world, en toto, as extremists like Bin LadenChris OConnor:: Howard - I am very curious if you see in Christianity that same problems that you see in Islam...ZombieHatesYou:: We are no better than they are. It's just our ass on the line, so we must fight for what *we* think is right.howbloom:: the giant has awakenedAvatarofPower:: Sephirah, that giant is going to wake up and realize that maybe an arm, and a foot, and a few other parts are sick and tired of its bullshit, I think...Chris OConnor:: Howard - or is it a matter of "degree?"MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: I woudln't brand Germans as evil...their culture just went through a crazy phase. Right now, the islamic cultures and our culture are both in a weird phaseladyfractal:: zombie: Hmmm...perhaps. Jeremy1952:: Of course we are better, ZombieZombieHatesYou:: I'm just trying to point out that while we believe they are wrong...they believe *we* are wrong. So how are we any better?howbloom:: and is getting its srength day by dayZombieHatesYou:: It's equal.MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: our own fundamentalists may act upSephirah Geburah:: I hope Avatarcinnamon321:: I agree MichealZombieHatesYou:: Jer: No. I don't think so. Johnny Neuron:: Good point MichaelJeremy1952:: Because they really ARE wrong, zombie.Chris OConnor:: Howard - and the giant is Islam?howbloom:: look, ZombieZombieHatesYou:: Jer: But they don't think they are wrong. Just like we don't think we are wrong. Do you see what I am getting at?howbloom:: I can speak osama speak because within his framework of belief he is rightMichaelangeloGlossolalia:: we need to make some muslim entertainers famous so nobody will want to see them diehowbloom:: he is not just righthowbloom:: he is courageousJeremy1952:: Yes, but you are wrong.howbloom:: he is heroicZombieHatesYou:: Jer: 'tay.howbloom:: he is probably the greatest idealist on this planet todayladyfractal:: zombie: okay, I don't think its equal because they are, in fact, going against a principle of universal...truly universal...human rights. If I understand it correctly, MOST Islamic nations do not allow women to vote and do not see women as human enough to voteMichaelangeloGlossolalia:: inside osama is a screaming infant who wants his mommy to forgive hi8mJeremy1952:: The wholesale repression of women is wrong. It isn't relativist. It isn't negotiable.howbloom:: he is willing to give up his life for what he believes inZombieHatesYou:: Frac: Allah says that is the way it works.ladyfractal:: zombie: Our culture went through it and our culture was *wrong* at that point. cinnamon321:: Shakira is part Arabic, I think but everyone sees her as a Latina and she is marketed that way.MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: I'm willing to give up his life tooJeremy1952:: One memeber of the species does not have the right to opress and kill the other genderhowbloom:: but if that means the death of free speech, equal rights for women, toleran, pluralismChris OConnor:: Zombie - I do see your point.howbloom:: cell phones howbloom:: and computers for the massesMichaelangeloGlossolalia:: how do you kill cell phones?Jeremy1952:: So: they think we are wrong for pluralism. We are right, and they are wrong.howbloom:: then I am willing to make a moral jusgementMichaelangeloGlossolalia:: that cat's out of the baghowbloom:: and defend the way of life I beieve inhowbloom:: periodJohnny Neuron:: So what is the solution Howard? Or IS there a solution?Jeremy1952:: Oh shit, now me and howard are agreeing. AvatarofPower:: heheMichaelangeloGlossolalia:: howard, what would you say we ordinary folks can do collectively aside from cheering Bush on?Chris OConnor:: LOLladyfractal:: zombie: I understand what you are saying...but I cannot be a relativist when it comes to issues like viewing women as full-human beings. I just cannot see how there is room to negotiate on that matter.howbloom:: if i were living in Osama's world I would never be allowe to think and writeZombieHatesYou:: I'm not saying I am against this war business. I just want people to recognize what it's really about.Jeremy1952:: Actually at a deeper level I think we do pretty much agree... it is tactics, not objectivs, where we differ.howbloom:: this discussion would not be happeninghowbloom:: and none of us would be waht we are todayMichaelangeloGlossolalia:: the solution is for boundaries to dissolve and a great sacrifice to show humanity why it's impossible to impose boundaries on an emergent systemJeremy1952:: Now wait just a minute, Michael.howbloom:: trying with all our might to contribute through our discusions, our brainstorming and our disagreementsJohnny Neuron:: And compromise?MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: or just for people to organize and communicate across boundaries until they understand the Beasthowbloom:: the the betterment of humahnityChris OConnor:: Howard - you should come speak at the Atheist Alliance convention here in FL in april - Michael Shermer and Richard Dawkins will be there. Your views on Islam would make for an incredible presentationZombieHatesYou:: Frac: Obviously I view women as 'full human beings.' You know me. I'm always blaring about something or another. And no, I do not agree with the way the Muslim women are treated. I just think it would be better all around if people realized that *everyone* thinks they are right when it comes to this stuff.Jeremy1952:: Where would we be if protozoans hand't imposed boundaries on their genomes?AvatarofPower:: its called a Unified Human Intelligence, MichaelZachSylvanus:: Howard, need I remind you that in the Islamic world, it nurtured and advanced the learning of Greece and Rome for six hundred years, until our own culture forcefully took it from them?MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: I think westerners and arabs need to communicate on a human level as well as a strategic levelZombieHatesYou:: Whether they are *actually* right about the issue is neither here nor there.ladyfractal:: zombie: Okay, I see your pointAvatarofPower:: and we're working on it...ZombieHatesYou:: 'tay.howbloom:: Chris--I was invited to one ateist symposiumhowbloom:: but Iladyfractal:: zombie: I'm sorry I thought you were arguing a slightly different point than the one you were makingJeremy1952:: Zombie, we KNOW everyone thinks they are right. That's why it comes down to tactics. We need to WINJohnny Neuron:: Zach: these are different times, different interestsZachSylvanus:: agreedChris OConnor:: Howard - they probably cannot afford youJohnny Neuron:: different MuslimsMichaelangeloGlossolalia:: the boundaries dissolve inside so that you can understand how to prevent them from dissolving outsidehowbloom:: ve been housebound with illness for fifteen yearshowbloom:: and do all my appearances via videohowbloom:: or electronic meansChris OConnor:: Howard - wow...I didn't know.ZombieHatesYou:: Jer: But while you are so hellbent on winning, do you see why they are so hellbent on winning?Jeremy1952:: I'm not opposed to the war because it is morally wrong, I'm opposed because it is TACTICALLY wrong.howbloom:: they were' up for thatZachSylvanus:: It's not the religion that is against learning, etc., it's the leadersLanDroid joinedMichaelangeloGlossolalia:: reality is too slow, I like internetZombieHatesYou:: I never said this war was morally wrong. MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: I never meet anyone interesting offlinehowbloom:: to address the issue of Moslems who disagree with OsamaZachSylvanus:: Leaders that have taken power much like Germany and Hitler, because of the way in which the Islamic countries have developedJeremy1952:: I'm hellbent on winning BECAUSE they are hellbent on winning. If they were willing to live and let live, so would I!MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: this war is morally ambiguoushowbloom:: in the Islamic world, as in Hitler's German worldMichaelangeloGlossolalia:: those who can survive moral ambiguity without going insane will have something to offerZombieHatesYou:: Jer: 'tay.howbloom:: they are not allowed to speak their mindJeremy1952:: Nope, nope, I didn't mean to imply that you did, Zombie. That was more of a general statementChris OConnor:: Howard - if you have any interest in making a video presentation at this convention I would be happy to help you with it....I know the people in chargeAvatarofPower:: mich: exactly... the internet... universal computer networking is the key to that increase in communication that you're talking abouthowbloom:: the leaders of moderate pluralist subcultures have been killedZachSylvanus:: I agree that if it comes down to it, I would rather see them paying the price than us, but I'd rather not think that we're at such a dead end as to be left with that as our only choicehowbloom:: nearly every writer who has gotten out of line has literally been murderedZombieHatesYou:: Jer: 'tay. I know you think I'm wrong...but do you at least see my point, even if you don't agree with it?MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: we need to send bullet proof vests to moderate islamic writershowbloom:: my friends in Islam, the pluralists and moderists I meet with in this bedroomJeremy1952:: YesZachSylvanus:: Much as those who spoke out against HItlerhowbloom:: have no voicepctacitus:: remember rushdie anyone?howbloom:: no spokesmenZombieHatesYou:: That's all I really want....for people to see each other's points, even if we don't agree.Jeremy1952:: Actually when you rephrased your position, I think I agreed.ladyfractal:: zach; I'm not sure that we're *not* at that point...as far as I can tell, the Islamic facists are *not* interested in compromising with the WestAvatarofPower:: being able to link directly to a person's mind and thoughts breaks down all the barriers of WHAT a human is and brings forward WHO that human ishowbloom:: they are free to speak because they are here in America, not back home in Bangla Desh or Pakistanhowbloom:: we need to free them to speakMichaelangeloGlossolalia:: I agree, Avatarhowbloom:: which is somithing I'm working onJohnny Neuron leftladyfractal:: howard: have you read Huntington's "Clash of Civilizations"MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: we need to make them fall in love with us through mediaZachSylvanus:: Lady: Do you feel justified in compromising at the blade of a sword?Johnny Neuron joinedGlory Matthews leftcinnamon321:: wb JohnnyZachSylvanus:: Because essentially we're asking aquiescence with a knife at their throatsZombieHatesYou:: Michael: Yes, MTV will bring them over.AvatarofPower:: or at least understand us...howbloom:: I agree with Huntington's ideaMichaelangeloGlossolalia:: we are the world's entertainers...howbloom:: yes, this is the biggest choice point of historyJohnny Neuron lefthowbloom:: any of us will see in our livesJeremy1952:: Well boys and girls, men and women, your honor, members of the jury; if I am to have ANY chance at sex tomorrow, I'd betterMichaelangeloGlossolalia:: maybe musicians need to have a video dialogue with IslamZachSylvanus:: It's a large choice point in history, but I wouldn't say the biggestMichaelangeloGlossolalia:: Springsteen sings "Please don't kill us"Jeremy1952:: go spend some time with my lovely wife, who is at this very moment feeling abandonedladyfractal:: zach: Perhaps...although I'm not sure. howbloom:: if we mistreat it and make the wrong decisions we may well determine the fate of many generations down the lineGlory Matthews joinedAvatarofPower:: lol... enjoy yoursef, JeremySephirah Geburah:: Thanks for your time Jeremy! You are fun to read. ZombieHatesYou:: 'Night, Jer.ZachSylvanus:: It's the same choice every set of clashing cultures must makeMichaelangeloGlossolalia:: night jerChris OConnor:: Night JeremyZachSylvanus:: Night Jeremyhowbloom:: jeremy, g'nightGlory Matthews:: night Jercinnamon321:: night jerJeremy1952:: See y'all next time! Howard, thanks 1,000000 for coming back, in spite of nags like meJeremy1952:: : )ladyfractal:: howard: I'm not sure I fully agreed with Huntington. although he invokes you at the end of his book, talking about how Westerners need to recognize that we are part of Western civilizationAvatarofPower:: true, zach... but its the biggest one *we'll* seehowbloom:: thank you, jerChris OConnor:: Howard - how often do you make video presentations?Jeremy1952 leftZachSylvanus:: PossiblyMichaelangeloGlossolalia:: I'm part of a species organism, it's not western or americanZachSylvanus:: But to claim it's the Biggest in History is to bastardize cultures that have come beforehowbloom:: video presentations?ladyfractal:: michael: yes, you are...but at the same time, you really *are* a WesternerMichaelangeloGlossolalia:: whatever I'm part of, it's emerging globally and not in one placeMichaelangeloGlossolalia:: lady--I'm IN the Westhowbloom:: easy, when someone wnats to hire me to give a speech in AmsterdamMichaelangeloGlossolalia:: not necessarily identified with ithowbloom:: they send a videographerChris OConnor:: Howard - you said you do presentations by videohowbloom:: and we ta;e itChris OConnor:: Ahhhowbloom:: tapehowbloom:: or we do it live via telephoneladyfractal:: michael: your mindset is very different, I think, than someone from Chinese or Islamic civilizationladyfractal:: michael: your grounding assumptions, I think, are differentMichaelangeloGlossolalia:: lady, I'm sure there are people like me over therehowbloom:: doing it live via webcam is something I've done but it's primitive at bestMichaelangeloGlossolalia:: I know I have counterparts Chris OConnor:: A video would be the best methodMichaelangeloGlossolalia:: there is a me in Iran, a me in China etchowbloom:: it is so farhowbloom:: michaelAvatarofPower:: heh... talk to Steve Mannhowbloom:: what you're saying is rightChris OConnor:: I don't think the Atheist Alliance has much of a budgethowbloom:: so very righthowbloom:: but the you in Iraq or the you in Indonesialadyfractal:: michael: Oh, I'm sure that there are people in other civilizations who are more like Westerners than of other cultures. Hell, you know me, I practice a Japanese interpretation of an originally hindu religion...so there's cross-fertilizationhowbloom:: doesn't have the freedom to be youMichaelangeloGlossolalia:: the me in Iraq is hiding in a basemenethowbloom:: so much so that, get thisChris OConnor:: Michael - trueMichaelangeloGlossolalia:: of course, I'm in a basement howbloom:: the intellectual hear to the Islamic world is EgyptZombieHatesYou:: Michael: I'll let you out next week...maybe.MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: thanks zombZombieHatesYou:: -.ohowbloom:: Do you know how many new books are published in Cairo every yearSephirah Geburah:: How many?!howbloom:: in the whole nation of Egypt?howbloom:: 300AvatarofPower:: million?ladyfractal:: michael: But my *grounding* assumptions are very different....for instance, that I would turn away from the faith of my parents without too much thought of what they would think about it is, I think, very Western.AvatarofPower:: ZombieHatesYou:: Not very many, I'd wager...Sephirah Geburah:: ohMichaelangeloGlossolalia:: there really should be a way to connect people in Egypt etc. with people hereSephirah Geburah:: sheeshhowbloom:: now let's look at Israelhowbloom:: it has a population less than a third of the city of Cairoladyfractal:: michael: you see my point?MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: like a dating service, only for intellectualsZachSylvanus:: I think it's largely a matter of the audience available to read, as well...MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: or kidshowbloom:: wanna guess how many new books Israel publishes?ladyfractal:: michael: that would be interestinghowbloom:: 4,000MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: get kids on different sides to communicatepctacitus:: millionsZombieHatesYou:: I've had close contact with some Egyptians fresh off the boat, as it were. They were completely horrified by me.howbloom:: which means that the huge, enormours brainpowerChris OConnor:: Howard - thats amazinghowbloom:: the extraordinary creativity of the Islamic world ZachSylvanus:: What's the literacy rate of the Islamic world?howbloom:: is being squashed, squeldhe,howbloom:: strangledMichaelangeloGlossolalia:: smooshedChris OConnor:: Zombie - why?howbloom:: the literacy rate is lowZachSylvanus:: And of Israel?howbloom:: so is the standard of livingZombieHatesYou:: Chris: Why were they horrified by me?Glory Matthews:: Zomba, yes, but all it takes is an average westerner to br horrified of one who thinks freely.howbloom:: literacy rate in israel is highChris OConnor:: Zombie - yeaZachSylvanus:: Standard of living?AvatarofPower:: squelched, mashed, mushed and dashedMichaelangeloGlossolalia:: can Israel survive?howbloom:: the standard of living is the highest in the middle eastladyfractal:: zach; the Israeli literacy rate is in the upper 90's...like most (non-American) Industrial nationsAvatarofPower:: butcherd, slaughtered, ripped up and smashedhowbloom:: if Israel does not survive I will be very very upseAvatarofPower:: *bow*ZombieHatesYou:: Chris: Well, a few reasons...I had dyed red hair, a kid and I wasn't married, I smoke, I swear, I talk too much, and I was working a hard physical labor job.ZachSylvanus:: So should we really be surprised that fewer books are published in a society where they're less useful?MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: if any population doesn't survive, I'll feel ithowbloom:: however it is living on the edge of a razor bladeChris OConnor:: Wouldn't Israel be conquered in short order if the US were not supporting it?howbloom:: barely haning in thereZombieHatesYou:: They fluctuated between thinking I was the Whore of Babylon to being in love with me. ZachSylvanus:: not anymore, I don't thinkChris OConnor:: Zombie - LOL I gues that would do ithowbloom:: but remember once upon a time france supplied israel with all its jetsZombieHatesYou:: Indeed.ZombieHatesYou:: You know me. I' m brash.howbloom:: then france sold out for arab oilZachSylvanus:: They've got enough technology and scientific research that I think they could probably hold their end up fairly well...Chris OConnor:: hehe trueladyfractal:: zach; the problem is that at one point, the Islamic world was THE most enlightened, scientific culture going...howbloom:: and stopped selling weapons to israelAvatarofPower:: 300 versus 4000 is a bit much, though, zachMichaelangeloGlossolalia:: zombie--oh there you go...get a bunch of western women to attract fundamentalist muslim men who are considered pillars of their community....then post the chat tran*****s when they ask for cybersex ladyfractal:: zach: then something seems to have gone terribly, terribly wronghowbloom:: here's something else to considerZachSylvanus:: Not if the relationship in standard of living and literacy is very offhowbloom:: there are 1.2 billion moslemsZachSylvanus:: Lady: Western civilizationZombieHatesYou:: Michael: Oh blah. :Pladyfractal:: zach: ?ZachSylvanus:: We've crushed them since we mounted the crusadeshowbloom:: almost all of them agree that the jews are a curse on the planetMeme Wars joinedMichaelangeloGlossolalia:: Zombie--hey, it just might workhowbloom:: and that israel is an abominationMichaelangeloGlossolalia:: you could discredit the extremistsZachSylvanus:: They were able to hold on very well, since they were in the middle of the spice roadZombieHatesYou:: They think we are whores, Michael.howbloom:: there are 5 million IsraelisMichaelangeloGlossolalia:: we know the islamic extremists are suckers for sexMichaelangeloGlossolalia:: zombie--exactlyZachSylvanus:: And then our shipping routes pulled out the only economic advantage they hadhowbloom:: do the arithmetic, who wins?MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: you could out themChris OConnor:: Hey memeChris OConnor:: you're late!MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: we could resettle the Jews in Texas, I'm sure they'll assimilate just fineladyfractal:: michael: they *really* do...although what I've started doing on Yahoo is asking if Muslim women will chat about sex with any man who askscinnamon321:: I met someone from Iran once, and she says that there are practicing Jews there.Meme Wars:: So did I miss the guest speaker?howbloom:: Jews? in Texas?MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: course I'm technically jewish and afraid of Texans so maybe not ZombieHatesYou:: *giggles*Chris OConnor:: Michael - you sure are filled with fancy ideas lolladyfractal:: michael: its AMAZING how quickly that shuts them uphowbloom:: we jews tend to be left wing liberalsChris OConnor:: Meme - Howard Bloom is here nowMichaelangeloGlossolalia:: I'm a bleeding heart handwringing liberalMichaelangeloGlossolalia:: "handwringing" is the latest epithetladyfractal:: michael: Jews in Texas? Do they even ALLOW Jews in Texas? they don't eat bbq pork ribs. howbloom:: about the only place in texas where we'd fit in is austinhowbloom:: the progressive capital of the stateMichaelangeloGlossolalia:: hey, Jews survive (somehow) in floridahowbloom:: actually there are jewish texansAvatarofPower:: lol... i'm conservative.... for a hippy... which is to say moderately liberalZombieHatesYou:: This is driving me nuts. I want so much to be able to listen to what you all have to say, and my kids keep screaming at me. How frustrating.howbloom:: kinky friedmancinnamon321:: There's Jews everywhere heheladyfractal:: howard: Austin is the ONLY part of Texas I'll actually cast a shadowZachSylvanus:: As opposed to the middle of the Islamic world, howard? :PMeme Wars:: I had to do emergency work to my wife's postal jeep, so I missed out.ladyfractal:: howard: sorry, I was being facetioushowbloom:: look, we jews have a problemhowbloom:: the irish have irelandhowbloom:: the french have franceMichaelangeloGlossolalia:: we humans have a problemhowbloom:: the english have englandMichaelangeloGlossolalia:: the christians have americaAvatarofPower:: we humans hav e aproblemAvatarofPower:: indeed, michaelChris OConnor:: Zombie - being a single mom is roughhowbloom:: and we were tossed out of the postage stamp of land we once hadMichaelangeloGlossolalia:: the animists have....um...ZombieHatesYou:: Chris: I manage. Chris OConnor:: Zombie - I once was one. howbloom:: in the same way that the french are wedded to the soil of franceChris OConnor:: lolhowbloom:: we are wedded to the soil from which we cameMichaelangeloGlossolalia:: the buddhists have hollywoodhowbloom:: god knows whyZombieHatesYou:: A single mom? *quirks brow*MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: I don't believe in being wedded to soil. I believe group identity is a narrative processhowbloom:: and god knows what intinctual thing supports the power of tribal memoryAvatarofPower:: howard... modern western cultures are absolutely removed from the landladyfractal:: howard: I hope you don't mind my saying this...but as a black woman, I almost envy Jews for having a Jerusalemhowbloom:: narratives are based on instinctMichaelangeloGlossolalia:: I don't necessarily think so...howbloom:: they swirl around instinctual pointsMichaelangeloGlossolalia:: I think there is an instinct to form groupshowbloom:: they are based on hierarchy gamesChris OConnor:: Lady - Wow...I can imagine you doAvatarofPower:: its the culture that the people are attatched to... its the human constructions ON the land that modern western cultures are attached toMichaelangeloGlossolalia:: but I don't know if jewishness is instinctual. MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: or any other "ishness"MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: I think it's just groupingChris OConnor:: Lady - They have a place to call homehowbloom:: have you ever looked at Aristotelian plot structure from an instincual and evolutionary point of view?MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: Jews have a narrative, Palestinians have a narrativeMichaelangeloGlossolalia:: they are both victim narrativesZombieHatesYou:: My Zombishness is instinctual. MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: their narratives are very similarMichaelangeloGlossolalia:: they see each other as aliens, but they're brothersladyfractal:: chris: I have Jewish friends, I've gone to Passover saders and when I've heard "next year in Jerusalem" I understand what it *truly* means to have a land that is yourshowbloom:: the Palestinian narrative was started in the 1960sMichaelangeloGlossolalia:: I have no land of my ownhowbloom:: did you know that what is now called Jordan occupieshowbloom:: 75% of the territory once called PalestineMichaelangeloGlossolalia:: victims are victims, they generate a retro-narrativeladyfractal:: brbMichaelangeloGlossolalia:: you can create a thousand years of narrative without there even being a reality to ithowbloom:: and do you know how palestinians are treated in that 75% of palestinehowbloom:: ?howbloom:: do you know about black september?MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: Palestinians are the Jews of the Middle East, aside from the JewsZombieHatesYou:: What is that? Black September?Chris OConnor:: Howard - I don't know much of the history of that region...and should read up on it a bitpctacitus:: yeah, like shithowbloom:: 10,000 palestinians under Yassir Arafatpctacitus:: Jordanians massacred palastiniansMichaelangeloGlossolalia:: I wish people would just realize they are weaving a story and it's killing themhowbloom:: were living in Palestine--Jordanhowbloom:: yes, you've got itZombieHatesYou:: *frowns*MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: there's a point when one's self-narrative unravels and you have to see you are just a member of a speciesladyfractal:: michael: but that's not going to happen...people are far too wedded to their memeshowbloom:: tacitus, how did you know and can you tell the storyMichaelangeloGlossolalia:: lady--it will happen somedaypctacitus:: historyladyfractal:: michael: *particularly* if those memes help them feel special and beats back the demon of having to deal with their own liveshowbloom:: well few know that corner of historyhowbloom:: it never made the headlinespctacitus:: Arafat was too politically powerfulZombieHatesYou:: I will have to read up on that.Chris OConnor:: Michael - I'll agree with Lady....I don't see it ever happeningMichaelangeloGlossolalia:: in Ireland, at one point, 3 children were killed by a bomb...their parents were protestant and catholic. Neither side could use them as martyrs. That seemed to break the spell for a lot of people.cinnamon321:: I agree ladyfractalhowbloom:: the slaughter of Palestinians by...Palestinianspctacitus:: the king of Jordan had the army kick the PLO out by forceMichaelangeloGlossolalia:: nature gave us tribal identities for a reason...perhaps she breaks those open and gives us species identities when the pressure is great enough.ladyfractal:: chris: I'm not saying it will *never* happen...but I think it will be a terribly long road. There's a rising tide of irrationalism and I don't think we've seen the crest of it yethowbloom:: yes, Arafat's boys were doing what they do best--stealing cars and forcing people out of their homes at gunpoiintpctacitus:: tanks vs riflesGlory Matthews:: Michale, I really identify with what you said ... I often feel not just from my culture, but just humanMichaelangeloGlossolalia:: I would imagine the blaming of Jews for the Palestinians is partly a product of guilt over how Arabs have treateed them?pctacitus:: who wins? just guess peoplehowbloom:: and there were suspicions that Arafat might want the Jordanian throneMichaelangeloGlossolalia:: tribal narratives are soaked with guilt, that's why I can't have identify with themhowbloom:: michael, it would be nicepctacitus:: Arafat wants power? Im so shockedMichaelangeloGlossolalia:: arabs and Israelis and Americans, all thee groups have stories...and guilt is fuelling a big chunk of themChris OConnor:: Lady - I am afraid for our species. I see ignorance everywhere I turn...and this ignorance is embraced as if its a virtue to not care about self-educationhowbloom:: if the Arabs felt guilty over the way they've penned up the Palestinians in refugee campspctacitus:: no wait Im not at all shockedMichaelangeloGlossolalia:: exactlyhowbloom:: and used them as political pawnsMichaelangeloGlossolalia:: if everyone felt their own guilt, they'd stop projecting ithowbloom:: but I don't think there's a stitch of guilt about itladyfractal:: chris: that is *exactly* what I'm talking about...you and I are on the same pagehowbloom:: and you're rightMichaelangeloGlossolalia:: but guilt makes them feel unconsciously that they deserve to be overwhelmedpctacitus:: of course notMichaelangeloGlossolalia:: so they push and strategizehowbloom:: there's no need for guilt when you can blame it on the IsraelisMichaelangeloGlossolalia:: and form final solutionspctacitus:: it's war by proxyhowbloom:: the jews who secretly run america etcGlory Matthews:: Chris, I am concerned about that too.Chris OConnor:: Michael - the problem is the majority of people on this planet are idiots...and they don't care about their idiocy.MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: and both populations are separated by a gulf of perceptionChris OConnor:: Glory - I don't see a solutionpctacitus:: the arabs are hoping both sides will kill each other offMichaelangeloGlossolalia:: their narrativesladyfractal:: chris: My housemate, is very well educated and well-traveled...but without realizing the implications, dismisses with a wave of the hand, rationality, logic and science as being 'just another (inferior) way of viewing the world'ZombieHatesYou:: There's never need for guilt when you can blame it on someone else...MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: group identity replaces individual conscience because it's too hard to bearMichaelangeloGlossolalia:: and everyone becomes a robotChris OConnor:: Howard - Why is it that there are so many jews in political office in the US? Edited by: Chris OConnor  at: 10/30/05 4:17 pm
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Re: Howard Bloom chat transcript from March 6th, 2003

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howbloom:: group identities are very importantMichaelangeloGlossolalia:: jews? try christians!howbloom:: group identities give us our individual identityladyfractal:: chris: when I tried to explain to her that in some Islamic states, for instance, the accused in a murder can have friends come in and testiy on his behalf and that testimony is counted as evidentiary that is a scary world, she didn't understand it.Glory Matthews:: Chris, people don't want to know, they just want to be sheltered, and we all know this and only extreme circumstances will change that.MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: I feel more identified with my abilities and not with a group beyond my immediate familycinnamon321:: My biggest pipe dream for the future would be that humans would gain a species identity as the flow of information between the nether-regions of the world increases and people lose some of their ignorance.Chris OConnor:: Is there any truth to what I've heard of Jews controlling this nation?pctacitus:: chris?MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: I feel more like a piece of music than a piece of landpctacitus:: are you ok?ladyfractal:: michael: hmmmm...I understand what you are saying...I've been giving a lot of thought to it as you speakhowbloom:: LOLhowbloom:: look, music is all about group identityhowbloom:: think for a momentMichaelangeloGlossolalia:: I know if I were black, and I spent time with black people, I'd form an "authentic" black identityhowbloom:: music is used as a flag to show what group you belong toMichaelangeloGlossolalia:: same with jewishness...if I was SEEN as a member of the group, I'd feel their narrativeladyfractal:: michael: But I have to say, I *am* part of something larger than myself or my family. My personal story, who I am,is inseperable from my being a black American and a child of the civil rights movement.MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: howard--that's why white suburban kids talk ghetto Chris OConnor:: I listen to raphowbloom:: to say fuck you to their parentsZachSylvanus:: you rebel :PChris OConnor:: I like Tu Pac, Eminem, etc..Glory Matthews:: Howard, I relate with the music statement more than anything else that has been said tonight!howbloom:: to say we have an identity of our ownMichaelangeloGlossolalia:: I don't feel connected to all white people just cos I'm white..but if whites were persecuted, then I'd have a "white" identityChris OConnor:: I also listen to Andrea Bocelli and Sarah Brightman, Al Green, Marvin Gayehowbloom:: yes Edited by: Chris OConnor  at: 10/30/05 4:18 pm
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Re: Howard Bloom chat transcript from March 6th, 2003

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MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: white kids saying "we have our own identity, and it's black!"howbloom:: michael is rightpctacitus:: isn't the music thing in Global Brain?ladyfractal:: michael; LOL!!!howbloom:: opposiiton in the greatest bonderhowbloom:: music is another bonderMichaelangeloGlossolalia:: I don't feel Jewish, but if I lived in Israel I mighthowbloom:: the music thing isnhowbloom:: 't in global brainhowbloom:: itMichaelangeloGlossolalia:: as it is, nobody notices my jewishness so I don't identify with ithowbloom:: s part of my fieldwork in musicChris OConnor:: Howard - it is something you should write about somedayZombieHatesYou:: I think our "ethnic" or "cultural" identity is what often gets us into these messes in the first place...howbloom:: it's one of the things I learned helping new subcultures get on their feetpctacitus:: Are you sure Howard?ladyfractal:: michael: well, my 'authentic' black identity is a very different 'black' identity than what gets into the mediaChris OConnor:: Howard - or I should say "publish" somedayMichaelangeloGlossolalia:: if I lived in a prison and was seen as a criminal, I'd adopt the criminal identityGlory Matthews:: Howard, I would LOVE to read about the music idea.Chris OConnor:: Howard - explain disco thenladyfractal:: howard; disco??!!!!!!!howbloom:: hang onChris OConnor:: I even liked discohowbloom:: how did Chris OConnor:: I LOVE musicMichaelangeloGlossolalia:: I think all the "identities" people are coasting on will turn out to be automatic programs which will shock us into a new identity, a species identity howbloom:: Al sharpton's name come up?howbloom:: then we'll do discoMichaelangeloGlossolalia:: those identities are becoming idols, brittleChris OConnor:: Who didn't like Saturday Night Fever?NaddiaAoC:: Chris: You liked disco? Wow. My whole opinion of you just went down the crapper. ladyfractal:: howard: Yes, briefly...I was saying that my black identity was more like Shelby Steele than Al SharptonChris OConnor:: Cheryl - I sure didcinnamon321:: Micheal, we will eventually HAVE to have a species identity. MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: I can imagine having a disco identityhowbloom:: good for youMichaelangeloGlossolalia:: cinnamon--a lot of people have already glimpsed ithowbloom:: I spent six months babysitting al sharpton andChris OConnor:: I love music....soooooo much. I like bagpipes, banjos, the pan fluteMichaelangeloGlossolalia:: when you arent' accepted by ANY group, something happens to youhowbloom:: am utterly disgusted at what the media has made of himladyfractal:: howard: the ONLY reason I would invoke that man is to emphasize the ways in which I am not like himMichaelangeloGlossolalia:: if you are Jewish but the Jewish community rejects you, you become what? pctacitus:: Al Sharpton's campaign would reelect GWBhowbloom:: he's a con man and he's been legitmatedMichaelangeloGlossolalia:: if you're black but you're gay, are you treated the same as if you were just black? Identity becomes complex.ladyfractal:: howard: not that I have strong feelings about him at all. MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: legitimated lolMeme Wars leftNaddiaAoC:: I love music too, Chris, but I have yet to meet a disco song that I like.howbloom:: I do, he's a fascinating guy and extremely charminghowbloom:: but a thiefhowbloom:: ok disco if you're up for itladyfractal:: michael; I can say, definitely, that you're not. there is a tension between my being black and my being gaypctacitus:: okChris OConnor:: Lady - I would love to have a conversation someday about racism...its of great interest to me.MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: Al Sharpton is popular for his ability to get racism publicized when nobody else will touch itladyfractal:: michael: for a long time I didn't have much to do with the black community because of homophobiahowbloom:: gays in the 1950s and 1960s were bashed, beaten when they went on the streetGlory Matthews:: Michael, you become Velveta, just like the rest of the ethnic-uncentered americans who struggle for identity.MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: lady--but maybe that tension gives you a way to see through the illusion of both identities?howbloom:: they had no ligeitimate identity in our cultureChris OConnor:: Howard - lets talk discoMichaelangeloGlossolalia:: I don't think you have to be "velveta"ladyfractal:: michael: Yes, it does...howbloom:: gay clubs were raided by the police and everyone arrested for being gayhowbloom:: this is the background of the disco movementMichaelangeloGlossolalia:: I have no real ethnic identification but I identify with art, music, things involving patternhowbloom:: one sunday I got a call from a close friend in the music businessChris OConnor:: Howard! Are you saying disco is a gay thing? MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: howard--so everyone acted gay and that solved the problem! I get it!ladyfractal:: michael: But when I moved to Oregon, and found that this place is white as new-fallen snow, I suddenly feel *very* black...howbloom:: it must have been 1975LanDroid joinedhowbloom:: or 1976ladyfractal:: chris; no, I understand where howard is going MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: lady--well that I can understandNaddiaAoC:: Hi LanDroid!howbloom:: he was on fire island, a place where gays can quietyl be themselvesChris OConnor:: Speaking of gay....welcome back LanDroidMichaelangeloGlossolalia:: if I moved into an all black neighborhood, I'd feel conspicuously whiteAvatarofPower:: lolChris OConnor:: NaddiaAoC:: I was still burping up breastmilk in 1975.LanDroid:: Heh, howdy - been here a while, just quiet......howbloom:: he said, "meet me at my apartment tomorrow morning" Monday whenMichaelangeloGlossolalia:: unless they were all intellectualsladyfractal:: chris: I hadn't come out yet...but I lived just north of San Francisco and have friends who were out at that timeNaddiaAoC:: LOL Chrishowbloom:: I get off the seaplane from fire islandhowbloom:: we metChris OConnor:: okhowbloom:: he was wildly excitedhowbloom:: he was a very macho sort of guyChris OConnor:: macho macho man....(Village People)howbloom:: so was his roommate, zz tops rep in ny and another fiend and colleague of mineladyfractal:: chris: I was wondering if he was gonna tie the gay rights movemetn to the disco movement...that's the ONLY place where I could see disco having any kind of political consciousnesshowbloom:: he tolem me he was gay and proud of it NaddiaAoC:: Me too, LanDroid. I'm at work so I'm in and out of the chat.howbloom:: I was very, very surprisedhowbloom:: then he told me what had been happening during the summer on fire islandladyfractal:: chris; btw. I'd be happy to talk to you about racism at some pointChris OConnor:: I never undrstood being proud of anything you didn't proactively dohowbloom:: in the gay communityChris OConnor:: lady - excellenthowbloom:: there was a new form of music being imported fromladyfractal:: chris: you can email me if you wishhowbloom:: europhowbloom:: it was techno dance stuff with a feverish pitchowbloom:: hNaddiaAoC:: Chris: Me either. That's why I have a hard time with the phrase, "proud to be an American." howbloom:: the gays were gathering every night and dancing their asses of to itMichaelangeloGlossolalia:: where is the gay gangsta rap?howbloom:: empowered by that music, they felt a potent sense of belongingMichaelangeloGlossolalia:: there must be gay gangstas out therehowbloom:: a potent sense of identityhowbloom:: and they wanted to take that musicChris OConnor:: lady - you should start posting on BookTalk - we could have a great conversation on "The Roundtable" about this...I don't have enough time to do email conversations and alaso participate on BookTalk. I like to keep the intellectual...time consuming stuff on the boardshowbloom:: and that IDENTITYhowbloom:: globalMichaelangeloGlossolalia:: identity=resonancehowbloom:: disco was a social movementladyfractal:: michael: actually gay.com had an article about three months ago on gay rappershowbloom:: a coming out of the closet, and I was being asked to be its spokesmanMichaelangeloGlossolalia:: lady--yeah, but gangsta rappers? NaddiaAoC:: Lady: Yeah, you should start a thread about racism on the message board. I would love to discuss it too.ladyfractal:: michael: its still very small...but there seems to be a growing gay hip-hop rap scenehowbloom:: the person who would embed it in the culturewAvatarofPower:: all real deep forms of music are social movements....MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: lady--kewlhowbloom:: new gay clubs sprang up on the west side of the villagehowbloom:: overtlyhowbloom:: ooutrageously gay clubshowbloom:: no pretending, no sneaking aroundChris OConnor:: I've been in a gay clubladyfractal:: michael: well, I'm not sure and I'm not sure I would WANT there to be a gay gangsta' rap scene because I'm not particularly fond of gangsta raphowbloom:: but clothes like you've never seenLanDroid:: No surprise Chris...AvatarofPower:: heh... enjoy yourself chris?howbloom:: skin tight leather outfits, then the macho thingChris OConnor:: LanDroid ROFLcinnamon321:: LOLGlory Matthews:: lan, hehhowbloom:: guys dressed up like the Village Peoplehowbloom:: before there was a Village people MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: and gays have more reason than anyone to oppose fundamentalist islamic radicals but they can't join the armyhowbloom:: two gay guys flew in from Franceladyfractal:: michael: to me, it appropriates the *worst* images of black urban life and elevates them to be THE One True Authentic BlacknessMichaelangeloGlossolalia:: pityChris OConnor:: I wore black leather pants, a leather vest, and a space helmethowbloom:: and suddently found their freedomhowbloom:: in the clubsMichaelangeloGlossolalia:: lady--yupZombieHatesYou:: *has minor mental breakdown*howbloom:: they were brilliant at making musicChris OConnor:: Hoard - this was in the 70's?howbloom:: they recruited four guys and randomhowbloom:: yes the 70sMichaelangeloGlossolalia:: here goose, have an identityMichaelangeloGlossolalia:: er..zombshowbloom:: and dressed them the way the guys in the clubs were dressinghowbloom:: and called them the village peopleChris OConnor:: The Village PeopleChris OConnor:: yesZombieHatesYou:: You called me Goose MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: sowwyChris OConnor:: and they were great I thoughthowbloom:: it was a celebration of their identityLanDroid:: YMCA!Chris OConnor:: no laughing...I liked themladyfractal:: howard: so that's how they started!howbloom:: disco was a social movementSephirah Geburah:: What do you see for the near future of music in general, Howard?howbloom:: a demand to be recognizedChris OConnor:: yeshowbloom:: a demand to the end of gay bashingladyfractal:: howard: so, what do you think about the current gay rights movement?MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: music with intelligent lyrics would be niceGlory Matthews:: Zomb, at least he didn't call you Binary ;PChris OConnor:: And it seemed to have worked...to an extentLanDroid:: Next musical social movement?Chris OConnor:: tehy came out of the closethowbloom:: so when I worked on music i never worked on rhythm and melody in a vacuumAvatarofPower:: Jamhowbloom:: i was always freeing new subcultures the rightSephirah Geburah:: Or artistic and honest lyrics at that... AvatarofPower:: damn hippies are starting to come back....howbloom:: for new ways to beMichaelangeloGlossolalia:: how would you free islamic intellectuals?ladyfractal:: avatar: hey! I resemble that remark! LOLhowbloom:: hmmmm, I'm on ef those damend hippies, circa 1962MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: they need publicistsChris OConnor:: Howard - I'm a country fan....any opinions on country music?NaddiaAoC:: LOL Avatar. From that photo of you on the MB I think you should be their king.howbloom:: I'm trying to free Islamic intellectualspctacitus:: hippies again, damn themAvatarofPower:: lolMichaelangeloGlossolalia:: are you a bleeding heart liberal or a handwringing liberal?howbloom:: yoiks, naddiaChris OConnor:: (and please don't say, "yea, it sucks&quot howbloom:: bear with me if I sound stupid or brashChris OConnor:: okhowbloom:: but in 1973 I was working with country musicChris OConnor:: okladyfractal:: howard: out of sheer curiosity...what do you think of what happened to the gay rights movement AFTER AIDS hit?howbloom:: I hated the music but loved the peoplehowbloom:: the music got no respect, it was like the gay thingpctacitus:: okhowbloom:: so I worked to take it mainstream and it workedhowbloom:: but why did I do it?ladyfractal:: howard; I got involved in the movement in the late 80's...and it seemed like we lost a generation of leadership...at least amongst men.howbloom:: for the people, not for the musicMichaelangeloGlossolalia:: cos your dog died and your pickup stopped working?Chris OConnor:: Howard - Yes, the people are a big part of it for me. What I like about country music is it is clean...and the lyrics are about things we can all relate to.howbloom:: and the lyrics say that if you are depressed and miserablehowbloom:: you are not aloneMichaelangeloGlossolalia:: lesbian country is goodChris OConnor:: Howard - what country artists did you work with?howbloom:: there are a bunch of us and we will comfort youladyfractal:: michael: lesbian country....like whom?howbloom:: Donna FargoMichaelangeloGlossolalia:: KD Lang maybe?howbloom:: Roy ClarkLanDroid:: I like humorous country songs, otherwise can't get past the twang...MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: not sure what's considered country ladyfractal:: michael: ahhh...okay...she's more Jazz now...and the indigo girls aren't countryhowbloom:: nope, I was asked to take a look at KD LangChris OConnor:: Howard - Another thing I like is that country fans are cross-generational. You can like the same songs if you are 12 or 21 or 61howbloom:: and to give an opinion to a record company president who was thinking of signing herhowbloom:: and I hated herChris OConnor:: Never heard of Donna Fargohowbloom:: so I did not always get things rightChris OConnor:: but that was the 70'sLanDroid:: Chris - like the rolling stones?ladyfractal:: lan: LOLladyfractal:: chris: the Grateful Dead are like thatLanDroid:: Hated KD Lang?Chris OConnor:: I am not a deadheadMichaelangeloGlossolalia:: the first bands I really liked were talking heads and Policehowbloom:: yes, I must confessladyfractal:: chris: I am. Chris OConnor:: ahhhowbloom:: I hated KD Lang and was sure she would go nowherepctacitus:: whyAvatarofPower:: heh... the jamband social scene is getting *huge* nowadays, ladyladyfractal:: michael; I LOVED the Police...Chris OConnor:: Howard - she has fizzled out though...a short careerAvatarofPower:: and the Dead is back! Edited by: Chris OConnor  at: 10/30/05 4:20 pm
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Re: Howard Bloom chat transcript from March 6th, 2003

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howbloom:: I helped start a whole bunch of subcultures off--rap, heavy metal, crossover blackLanDroid:: I wouldn't buy a disc, but thought KD has a great voice compared to most...ladyfractal:: avatar: Chris OConnor:: Which bands?Chris OConnor:: I ove metalhowbloom:: but kd lang resonated with the old country music i'd heard when I was a kidChris OConnor:: LoveChris OConnor:: Constant Craving is the only KD Lang song I knowhowbloom:: and I sensed something alien about that music, it was a group identity thingMichaelangeloGlossolalia:: that's the only song I really like lolMichaelangeloGlossolalia:: haven't heard that much of her stuff thoSephirah Geburah:: Hey! Im gonna toot my own horn! My "band" for lack of better words, has had a local top ten album for more than 7 months, had over 14,000 downloads on MP3.com, consitently sell out local venues, and have talked from everybody from RCA to Warner Brothers about deals... Any suggestions on how we can finnally get this thing going the next step?!howbloom:: I was four yeras old and would wake up at 6am before my parents ladyfractal:: okay I'm gonna blast some Dave Matthews Band and get ready to go have a drinkhowbloom:: and turn on the radiocinnamon321:: For me, I like a song and I don't really pay attention to the artist.MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: seph--right on...where do you live?ladyfractal:: be well all...namasteMichaelangeloGlossolalia:: bye fractal Sephirah Geburah:: !!! Namaste!!!!!!howbloom:: and it was all country music and farm reports and something inside of me told mecinnamon321:: by fractalSephirah Geburah:: Sephirah Geburah:: Arizonaladyfractal:: michael: thanks for telling me about this place...this was a Good Thing (tm)howbloom:: that I was a Jewish city kid and that farmers hated meSephirah Geburah:: PhoenixMichaelangeloGlossolalia:: yeah, I tend to resonate to individual songs, not so much the persona howbloom:: so I hated the music--remember I was only fourLanDroid:: Heh, insightful 4 year old.ladyfractal:: howard: pleasure meeting you...I've read some of your works....enjoyed speaking with you.MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: is there jewish rap?ZombieHatesYou:: Take care, FracChris OConnor:: Sephira - thats awesomehowbloom:: thanks fractalladyfractal:: zombs: be well suga'...talk to ya laterMichaelangeloGlossolalia:: they should have rap competitions between Jews and ArabsZombieHatesYou:: ladyfractal leftChris OConnor:: Bye LadyZachSylvanus:: Michael: I've heard HINDI rap>>>MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: sing the narrativesMichaelangeloGlossolalia:: yeah, I've heard hindi rapZachSylvanus:: I'm sure there's Jewish rAPhowbloom:: rap competitions between christians and arabsZachSylvanus:: lolhowbloom:: i love itChris OConnor:: lolMichaelangeloGlossolalia:: maybe a world competition for narrative songwritingChris OConnor:: lovelyhowbloom:: you know what I would love?LanDroid:: freestylin...Chris OConnor:: What?MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: aspire to be the spokesman for your identity nichehowbloom:: if jews and arabs could live together and enjoy each otherAvatarofPower:: penguins?LanDroid:: heh.howbloom:: have coffee together at the cafesChris OConnor:: How do you feel about Ebonics and rap lyrics?howbloom:: eat dinner togetherMichaelangeloGlossolalia:: howard--did I mention that phone campaign?howbloom:: talk about the holy sights in hebronChris OConnor:: Howard - Yes, that would be incredibehowbloom:: make dates to meet each other thereMichaelangeloGlossolalia:: they're anonymously connecting Israelis and Palestinians over the phoneZachSylvanus:: We need a powerful Arab Neitzsche to kill Allahhowbloom:: i had a bit of that when I was in IsraelMichaelangeloGlossolalia:: like a switchboard for peaceLanDroid:: how long would that take - less than 1000 years?howbloom:: I'd love to see it as a social normNaddiaAoC:: LOL ZachMichaelangeloGlossolalia:: it takes a generation, but you have to be willing to go against the ones on your own side who feel the other side is alien MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: because that's guilt talkinghowbloom:: the Arab world has managed to unite the entire Islamic community around hatred of Israel and of JewsMichaelangeloGlossolalia:: the person who reminds me of my own failures is the person who is most alien to mehowbloom:: from Nigeria to MalaysiaMichaelangeloGlossolalia:: cos they have a vibe which goes insidehowbloom:: Jew hatred is too valuable a political tool to give upMichaelangeloGlossolalia:: they need to role play and be in a situation where they're SEEN as jewsMichaelangeloGlossolalia:: I think that's what breaks up the trance...being seen as the other sidepctacitus:: it gives them something to believe inhowbloom:: god, do you mean asking arabs to role play a jewish role?Chris OConnor:: I've never understood itChris OConnor:: Jew hatredMichaelangeloGlossolalia:: howard--and vice versahowbloom:: I put myself inside the arab mind every dayChris OConnor:: I've never understood hatred of any sort...blind hatredMichaelangeloGlossolalia:: all things come full circle eventually. There's a book by a concentration camp survivor who took LSD with a psychiatrist...howbloom:: I read Osama's speeches word for wordMichaelangeloGlossolalia:: he said he saw the Nazi within himselfhowbloom:: and those of mnay of his alliesChris OConnor:: Howard - that is a great book "The Arab Mind"pctacitus:: in what language?Sephirah Geburah:: Howard, have you considered employing your social engeneering techniques to help a "arab-neitzsche" for example, get off its feet?howbloom:: I'm tryingSephirah Geburah:: How?MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: I think you need people who are very fluid in their identification howbloom:: that's why I have meetings in this bedroom with folks with tiels to Bangla Desh and AfghanistanMichaelangeloGlossolalia:: people who can separate the factual narrative from the identity narrativehowbloom:: I am trying to help these people find their voicehowbloom:: and trying to influence the educational systems in those countriesMichaelangeloGlossolalia:: interesting that we can do that, isn't it? sit indoors and communicate halfway around the worldhowbloom:: so kids are not taught hateSephirah Geburah:: !!! I would give you a hug if Chris OConnor:: thats the keySephirah Geburah:: I was therehowbloom:: and not taught only about their warriror herosSephirah Geburah:: hehehehowbloom:: but are taught about their culture herosMichaelangeloGlossolalia:: it's not just teaching hate, it's child abuse...abused kids will adopt angry identities to displace anger at their own parentshowbloom:: the ones who innovated and who created new ideas, new empowerments for humanityhowbloom:: forgotten herosMichaelangeloGlossolalia:: a lot of it is psycholigical substitution and displacementhowbloom:: forgotten role modelsMichaelangeloGlossolalia:: yeah, Islam produced some great arthowbloom:: but role models build the psyches and the passions of kidshowbloom:: and stay inside adults, guiding their emotionsSephirah Geburah:: Howard, Do you keep a journal? And if you do, do you think you ever publish it?MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: true...being SEEN in association with the role modelhowbloom:: I have 300 mb ofhowbloom:: the grand unified theory of everything in the universe including the human soulChris OConnor:: Wowhowbloom:: it's 3,800 chapters of book materialMichaelangeloGlossolalia:: send it over Sephirah Geburah:: !!! I wanna read it all!!! JEEZE!!! howbloom:: I need editors to helpe me put it togetherMichaelangeloGlossolalia:: should form a think tank to compete with the Heritage Insthowbloom:: so if you know anyone in nypctacitus:: how much will that cost on amazon?Chris OConnor:: Howard - do you believe humans have a soul?Sephirah Geburah:: Ok do this, right click "My Documents" and click "Share" ok?howbloom:: who'd like to help, let me knowMichaelangeloGlossolalia:: I'll help with whateverMichaelangeloGlossolalia:: my email is on my websiteLanDroid:: Came in late - have you chatted about the effect of the upcoming war? U.S. genocide in Baghdad seeding more terrorism?MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: I have some free timehowbloom:: sould to me means passions so deep that they leap from us like flame in transcendent momentspctacitus:: I'll edithowbloom:: remember, I'm an atheisthowbloom:: tacitus, where do you live?Chris OConnor:: Howard - defined as such I have quite a soulMichaelangeloGlossolalia:: I like the idea of scientific pantheismpctacitus:: VAMichaelangeloGlossolalia:: I think about the soul, but not as an external thingMichaelangeloGlossolalia:: more as a patternMichaelangeloGlossolalia:: feedback spiralhowbloom:: scientific pantheism is part of what we're working on around herehowbloom:: a new religion based on scienceMichaelangeloGlossolalia:: I think that's comingZachSylvanus:: Why bother?howbloom:: one of the books in the hard drive waiting to be birthedpctacitus:: Church of Virus?Chris OConnor:: I never understood pantheism. The cosmos is divine? Meaningless to me.Sephirah Geburah:: THATS IT!!! ALL OF YOU!!! Ponder for the next couple days on how we can help Howard get those chapters into the public hands... His work has already done magic for many people I know, and the more the better... This world needs it, and fastMichaelangeloGlossolalia:: harness that limbig resonance and add some poetry and smart ideasMichaelangeloGlossolalia:: limbichowbloom:: is called The third Testament--the message of science to the human soulZachSylvanus:: I guess I don't understand why science needs a churchcinnamon321:: Some peoples religion is science. LOLMichaelangeloGlossolalia:: I think the basic message is "it's all connected"MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: you've seen Mindwalk haven't you?howbloom:: sephirah, thank you for your wordspctacitus:: My spring break starts tommorrowZachSylvanus:: the very idea of a religion based around science implies some sort of dogmahowbloom:: can you email me so I can stay in touch with you?pctacitus:: email me and I will edit quicklycinnamon321:: I agree Zach.howbloom:: my email address is [email protected] OConnor:: Howard - I think we would all love if you stayed in contact with BookTalk somehow...not sure how. Maybe come back in the future to keep us abreast of your progress in solving the great mysteries of life.howbloom:: or if that's hard to remember, try thishowbloom:: [email protected]:: if you send me stuff to read, I'll see if I can come up with some flash poetry based on itSephirah Geburah:: Chris OConnor:: Michael - One of my favorite movies!!!howbloom:: Chris let's discuss it and figure out a way to do itpctacitus:: I'll be in touchMichaelangeloGlossolalia:: yeah, Mindwalk was goodhowbloom:: wow, Michael, email me, remind me about the flash poetry, ok?MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: howard--will doMichaelangeloGlossolalia:: that's an L in your email right?LanDroid:: [email protected] - like a wolf? heh.NaddiaAoC:: Howard: I would love for you to stay in touch. It would be fun to chat with you again.MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: ok, howlChris OConnor:: Howard - I would love to see you do something with Dorion and Ann Druyan...something about bringing the beauty of science to the masses. That was Carls passion.howbloom:: tacitus, if you seriously think you've got some editing time, stay in touch, emai mehowbloom:: naddia, thank youLanDroid:: Yes, building on candle in the darkness.pctacitus:: I willMichaelangeloGlossolalia:: I've always got time, my only client right now is my dadhowbloom:: LOLMichaelangeloGlossolalia:: write anytime, I like interesting projects and think tankshowbloom:: ok, guys and ladies, I'm wipedMichaelangeloGlossolalia:: nice to see you again howardMichaelangeloGlossolalia:: always stimulatingChris OConnor:: Howard - Want the transcript emailed again?LanDroid:: Whew! Thanks! Great job!howbloom:: chris, let's see if we can work out another visit and yes, please send a transcrpitSephirah Geburah:: Thank you SO much Howard for talking with us! You meen so much to so many of us... I cant thank you enough...MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: send me one too chrisAvatarofPower:: it was excellent talking with you, howard!ZachSylvanus:: Thanks for taking time to chat with ushowbloom:: I will see you all again soonhowbloom:: &quot pctacitus:: thanks Howardcinnamon321:: Yes, thanks for talking to us Howard.Chris OConnor:: Howard - Ok, you can expect the transcript shortly. I always edit for spelling errors to make it read smoother.NaddiaAoC:: Thanks for coming by, Howard. This was definitely a highlight of BookTalk!MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: nice to chat with people not using capslock howbloom leftChris OConnor:: Michael - LOL No doubtpctacitus:: bye, I have an art history paper to write by tomorrowSephirah Geburah:: Aww.. hes gone.. its kind of like a really good concert endingSephirah Geburah:: Chris OConnor:: I'm glad to see so many people turned out for thisMichaelangeloGlossolalia:: later pcpctacitus leftLanDroid:: Whoaaa. Amazing - what did he say, 3800 chapters? Heh...Chris OConnor:: Howard is a great guy....brilliantGlory Matthews:: It's been great to chat tonight, very interesting. Must get to bed now though. G'night! NaddiaAoC:: I am too. AvatarofPower:: yeah, it was a good session, chrisChris OConnor:: Night GloriMichaelangeloGlossolalia:: I have to pee. See you in yahoo, chrisNaddiaAoC:: Goodnight GloryZachSylvanus:: g'night glorycinnamon321:: Yeah...3800 Chapters..that boggles the imaginationZombieHatesYou:: Thanks for having me, Chris.MichaelangeloGlossolalia leftAvatarofPower:: thats alota textZombieHatesYou:: I've a lot to think about now.AvatarofPower:: 300mb of textChris OConnor:: Hey, the transcript will be in "Chat Central" and you all can feel to add comments to the threadZombieHatesYou:: *retreats to yahoo*ZombieHatesYou leftChris OConnor:: Zombie - I am sooo glad you came bycinnamon321:: That kind of reminds me of Wolfram's a new kind of science...but Wolframs book is about mathChris OConnor:: Damn she leftSephirah Geburah:: heheAvatarofPower:: have you read that, cinnamon?Chris OConnor:: Sephirah - and I'm glad you joined.Sephirah Geburah:: Is there some sort of Buddy List system here on Booktalk?cinnamon321:: No....Sephirah Geburah:: Me to! Thanks again chris!Glory Matthews leftAvatarofPower:: ahhcinnamon321:: I would like to be able to understand it someday though.Chris OConnor:: we will have many authors as guests in the futurecinnamon321:: I was just comparing book sizesChris OConnor:: Sephirah - What do you mean by muddy list?LanDroid:: Can we get Lucretius next month?AvatarofPower:: heh... AvatarofPower:: its a biggunChris OConnor:: Lan - I already have him set upChris OConnor:: LOLSephirah Geburah:: I dunno... I met alot of neat people in this room tonight and I want some way to log there names and talk with them outside of booktalkAvatarofPower:: i'm slowly preparing my brain to start digging through itZachSylvanus:: The forums, SephSephirah Geburah:: oh yeahSephirah Geburah:: silly me.. im new at all thisSephirah Geburah:: ZachSylvanus:: hehecinnamon321:: Arent most of the booktalk people on yahell?Chris OConnor:: Sephirah - Here is the scoop. You can exchange emails on the forums...and talk outside of BookTalkNaddiaAoC:: Alright folks. I need to go. Nice chatting with you.ZachSylvanus:: g'night cherylAvatarofPower:: talk to ya later, cheryl!Chris OConnor:: I want to have a BookTalk get-together one day within the year here in FloridaChris OConnor:: Night cherylcinnamon321:: Good night NaddiaSephirah Geburah:: How many registered users does Book talk have?AvatarofPower:: florida... so... far... awayNaddiaAoC:: Goodnight everyone! AvatarofPower:: 62NaddiaAoC leftZachSylvanus:: Florida is so hot LanDroid:: 62 members! Allriiiight...Chris OConnor:: We have 62 registered users...but I do something to the numbers...Sephirah Geburah:: ?Chris OConnor:: Other EZBoards do not delete inactive people...I doSephirah Geburah:: ohSephirah Geburah:: gotchaChris OConnor:: If I didn't delete people we would have over 100Chris OConnor:: I delete spammersSephirah Geburah:: how long has this board been around?cinnamon321:: Spammers?Chris OConnor:: and people who don't come back after doing a "hit and run"cinnamon321:: Hmm, I didnt know anyone who spammed on message boardsChris OConnor:: Spammers are people who come by and post about their message board without even knowing what BookTalk isChris OConnor:: ...other EZBoard ownerscinnamon321:: Yeah, that would be annoying.Chris OConnor:: But the moderators delete those posts right awayChris OConnor:: I wanted to say somethingChris OConnor:: We are now reading "Atheism: A Reader"....Chris OConnor:: I plan to invite S.T. Joshi for a chat in 2 monthsChris OConnor:: And possibly Carl Sagans widow Ann DruyanSephirah Geburah:: CRAP! I wish I had money. I would go buy it.. I will try to scroundge up cash... cinnamon321:: CoolZachSylvanus:: do you think he'll deign to speak to us mere mortals? Joshi, that iscinnamon321:: I'll have to hit the libraryChris OConnor:: She would stand in for Carl...who has an essay in this bookSephirah Geburah:: Starving artist Chris OConnor:: Zach - I would bet on itAvatarofPower:: that would be very cool, chrisSephirah Geburah:: I have a big over due fee at the library shame on meLanDroid:: Be sure to tell Jeremy that Howard specifically admitted to being an atheist. Jeremy seems to think he is a theologian, LOL...cinnamon321:: You're an artist sephirah, or a student?Chris OConnor:: Zach - we have a great group here...authors love feedbackZachSylvanus:: trueChris OConnor:: LanDroid - good pointSephirah Geburah:: Im a musicianZachSylvanus:: On the other hand, do we really understand the issues? :PChris OConnor:: Are you all reading this next book?AvatarofPower:: i'm omnicient, zach... didn't you know?Chris OConnor:: I am looking very much forward to some awesome discussions on itcinnamon321:: Oh cool Seph, do you identify the style of music you play with any of the current genres?ZachSylvanus:: Not only did I know, but I made you say thatLanDroid:: Yeah, I just started John Stuart Mill - # 10.AvatarofPower:: i knew you were making me say it... i just went along with it to make you *think* you were making me say itChris OConnor:: I wish there was a way to select all of the text in this chat room with one or two buttonsSephirah Geburah:: AH!! CINNAMON I LOVE YOU!!! That was the best way to ask that question!!! hehehe... I have had HUNDREDS of people ask the simple question, "Who would you compare yourself to"Chris OConnor:: LanDroid - damncinnamon321:: heheChris OConnor:: Ok guys...thanks for showing up and making this such a success.Sephirah Geburah:: But, the best way Ihave heard somebody describe our music is "Exotic Industrial Hardcore"AvatarofPower leftChris OConnor:: Howard will come back in the future...you heard himSephirah Geburah:: It is very spiritual and artisticcinnamon321:: Cool Seph.LanDroid:: What's the website?Chris OConnor:: I am done chatting...I have to copy and paste this whole thread now.cinnamon321:: Good luck with your band Sephirah Geburah:: www.blessedbethyname.comChris OConnor:: Goodnight guysLanDroid:: Thanks - chekkin it...Sephirah Geburah:: nighty night!cinnamon321: Goodnight Chris
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Re: Howard Bloom chat transcript from March 6th, 2003

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Going back and rereading this chat session has my mind racing! What an incredible night March 6th was IMO. Certain ideas and concepts have stuck with me. Many members made such powerful arguments that I think it would be fun to disuss this transcript a bit more.Chris OConnor:: Someone has to play the role of the Alpha male...in the pecking orderhowbloom:: to wipe out humanityNaddiaAoC:: Hi folkshowbloom:: yesChris OConnor:: Hey Cheryl howbloom:: the alpha male is the key to social peaceI'm thinking back to "The Lucifer Principle" and where he discussed social hierarchies in primate communites. There is always a dominant male who runs the show. Each member of the social group knows their respective place and as a result, for the most part, the group lives in harmony. Once in awhile, the dominant male will experience a challenge to his authority. Either he squashes his opponent or he is replaced at the top of the pecking order.Howard made the argument in "The Lucifer Principle" that nations are superorganisms, much like a band of Bonobos. Perhaps the world needs an alpha male....a silver back...a dominant force. As long as the lead dog is generally agreed to deserve his position as the top of the mountain then we experience a sort of harmony. The moment they become abusive they increase their odds of being toppled. But...the point is that, like in a band of chimps in the jungle who require one leader or dominant male, maybe the world needs the same thing.Chris Edited by: Chris OConnor  at: 10/30/05 4:19 pm
MichaelangeloGlossolalia

Re: Howard Bloom chat transcript from March 6th, 2003

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I'm not so sure the world needs a dominant male, but I do believe that a dominant movement, a group of individual representing "cutting edge leadership", would involve an array of dominant males AND females. Such a group would not have such a limited bag of tricks as typical dominant males do, instead it would have enough self knowledge to say "I am consciously displaying dominance" the way a rock star does. The dominance shown by Mick Jagger and Neil Young is similar but different to that shown by George W or Saddam Hussein. It is a "higher frequency of alpha".
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