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This thread is for discussing Ch. 5 - The Second Enlightenment. You can post within this framework or create your own threads.Chris "For Every Winner, There Are Dozens Of Losers. Odds Are You're One Of Them"

Grayling ends chapter 5 saying that, "Science and such liberties are fatal to religious orthodoxy-as the events of the next centuries proceeded to prove. It seems to me that unfortunately science has not proven fatal to religion. It continues to thrive, especially in America. In fact, science has been highjacked by many religions in attempts to prove religious beliefs.

Yes, but you must admit that science has delivered blows to the stranglehold religion had on civilization. The religious are scrambling to hold on to any relevance in this modern world.Look at the attempts of the Christian Coalition! "They" know the days are numbered...we (atheists, et al) were unfortunately born into the middle (just an estimate) stage of the religious decline. A few hundred years from now...who knows what will be.Mr. P. The one thing of which I am positive is that there is much of which to be negative - Mr. P.I came to get down, I came to get down. So get out ya seat and jump around - House of PainHEY! Is that a ball in your court? - Mr. P

: It seems to me that unfortunately science has not proven fatal to religion. It continues to thrive, especially in America.This is the story elsewhere in the world too. The following points may be of interest:1. Religious views are forced on children when they are too young to fight back. And once conditioned this way, they go on to perpetuate these myths.2. The simple answers provided by religion is extraordinarily attractive (as Marx said).3. Religion does provide some neat things unavailable in other areas of life: fellowship, rituals, music, sharing food, charity, to mention a few. I have always loved these in the Unitarian Fellowships and Churches I have attended over the years.amd

WAIT Amd!Are you saying that there can be no "fellowship, rituals, music, sharing food, charity" without religion? I just dont get that at all.To me, I can have all this without religion. Maybe religion had a hand in establishing these things, but it usefullness is gone now, IMHO.I think that if religion never came about, humans would have adapted another meme to establish all this.Mr. P. The one thing of which I am positive is that there is much of which to be negative - Mr. P.I came to get down, I came to get down. So get out ya seat and jump around - House of PainHEY! Is that a ball in your court? - Mr. P

: Are you saying that there can be no "fellowship, rituals, music, sharing food, charity" without religion? I just dont get that at all.The way I live my life, the main place I find these is through the Unitarian Fellowship. There is a bit of this through work but usually it is nothing like the other thing through the Unitarian Fellowship. And I think that I am hardly alone in this.amd

When I tried to find fellowship within the church setting, I felt uncomfortable a lot of times... felt like I couldn't be my true self. What if I accidentally said a bad word or voiced an idea that might be frowned upon? I frequently felt like I had to be on guard. Once, I even joined a prayer group and was terribly dismayed when all - yes, all other members (okay, there were only 5 others, but still!) started talking politics and I discovered they were all of a certain slant that was directly opposed to my views. I felt really outnumbered and their vehement tones really put me off. So, that kind of fellowship was just one of the turn-offs for me with regard to religion. This particular church was traditional/conservative Episcopalian, so maybe I'd find a more comfortable setting in a more liberal church, but I still question the fundamental basis of religion in the first place, so what the hell... I guess it's all just relative, anyway.

About the question of science being fatal to God. I think I agree that it has not been fatal at all, self evidently so since religions still thrive. But I suppose Grayling means that, for thinking people (those who have not been indoctrinated in childhood, or those who've escaped their indoctrination), the whole religious edifice is obviously without foundation. Churches seem to have invoked one of two possible solutions to the problem. They have either incorporated science into their canon of belief if they are more liberal (like the Anglicans and Roman Catholics), or they have denied science and the evidence altogether (the Moslems and conservative churches in America). Edited by: PeterDF at: 11/7/04 1:38 pm