Chapter 5: Spoofing and secrecy
Please discuss Chapter 5: Spoofing and secrecy here in this thread.
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Chapter 5: Spoofing and secrecy
- Chris OConnor
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Re: Chapter 5: Spoofing and secrecy
Another chapter about space ships and aliens, which do not much grab my interest. But I am interested in his references to nations not trusting their governments and I am glad that he doesn't try to give us reasons why we should trust them completely......but just encourages us to guard against being too gullible.
Whilst reading this chapter and noting the good reasons for covering up technological discoveries - especially during the cold war - I began to think of the case of David Kelly, ten years ago, at the time of our invasion of Iraq and Tony Blair's oft quoted phrase 'Weapons of Mass Distruction' which became shortened to WMDs. The number of times this short phrase was repeated during news broadcasts certainly made me wonder whether we were being conditioned or brainwashed.
Mr Kelly walked out of his home one afternoon and was found dead in the woods nearby the next day. There was speculation about whether he had been murdered by the secret service, or whether it really was suicide. The point being that our nation was not in a mood to trust our government.
Kelly's death led not to an inquest, but a public inquiry by Lord Hutton, which brought a rare glimpse into the secret worlds of Whitehall, British intelligence, the low arts of high politics, and the workings of the BBC.
Its conclusion largely absolved the government of blame, and surprised observers.
http://www.theguardian.com/politics/201 ... 0-years-on
Thirty years ago there was a very suspicious abduction and murder of an elderley lady:
Hilda Murrell
Hilda Murrell was a British rose grower, naturalist, diarist and campaigner against nuclear power and nuclear weapons. She was abducted and found murdered five miles from her home in Shropshire, in a case which remains controversial. Wikipedia
Born: February 3, 1906, Shrewsbury
Died: March 21, 1984
Education: Newnham College, Cambridge
All of the above are reasons why we treat our governing bodies with suspicion, and they are the reason why I disagree with Carl Sagan's implication that such cover ups are largely for the benefit of the populace.
Whilst reading this chapter and noting the good reasons for covering up technological discoveries - especially during the cold war - I began to think of the case of David Kelly, ten years ago, at the time of our invasion of Iraq and Tony Blair's oft quoted phrase 'Weapons of Mass Distruction' which became shortened to WMDs. The number of times this short phrase was repeated during news broadcasts certainly made me wonder whether we were being conditioned or brainwashed.
Mr Kelly walked out of his home one afternoon and was found dead in the woods nearby the next day. There was speculation about whether he had been murdered by the secret service, or whether it really was suicide. The point being that our nation was not in a mood to trust our government.
Kelly's death led not to an inquest, but a public inquiry by Lord Hutton, which brought a rare glimpse into the secret worlds of Whitehall, British intelligence, the low arts of high politics, and the workings of the BBC.
Its conclusion largely absolved the government of blame, and surprised observers.
http://www.theguardian.com/politics/201 ... 0-years-on
Thirty years ago there was a very suspicious abduction and murder of an elderley lady:
Hilda Murrell
Hilda Murrell was a British rose grower, naturalist, diarist and campaigner against nuclear power and nuclear weapons. She was abducted and found murdered five miles from her home in Shropshire, in a case which remains controversial. Wikipedia
Born: February 3, 1906, Shrewsbury
Died: March 21, 1984
Education: Newnham College, Cambridge
The Hillsborough Enquiry - which is still ongoing has shown up lying and deceit on the part of our police force on a grand and outrageous scale.Early day motion 433
This is a relatively recent parliamentary motion on the matter:
MURDER OF HILDA MURRELL
Session: 2013-14
Date tabled: 16.07.2013
Primary sponsor: Mitchell, Austin
Sponsors:
Bottomley, Peter
Corbyn, Jeremy
Lucas, Caroline
Llwyd, Elfyn
George, Andrew
That this House notes with concern that, as documented in the new edition of the book about Hilda Murrell’s murder, A Thorn in Their Side, by her nephew Commander Robert Green, Royal Navy (Retired), key forensic and other evidence was not disclosed at the 2005 trial and the 2006 appeal of Andrew George, who was convicted of the abduction and murder of the internationally renowned rose grower and anti-nuclear campaigner in 1984; further notes Michael Mansfield QC’s view that the book raises serious and substantial doubts about the criminal investigations to date into this controversial case; supports Mansfield’s call for a Commission of Inquiry into the case along similar lines to the Hillsborough Independent Panel; and recommends that all relevant papers be published by the Home Office and the West Mercia Police.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hillsborough_disasterNinety-six men, women and children died as a result of the Hillsborough Disaster on 15 April 1989. It remains the most serious tragedy in UK sporting history. Thousands suffered physical injury and/or long-term psychological harm. Twenty-three years on, the Panel has negotiated the disclosure of documents from those involved. Its analysis is published in an in-depth Report.
All of the above are reasons why we treat our governing bodies with suspicion, and they are the reason why I disagree with Carl Sagan's implication that such cover ups are largely for the benefit of the populace.
Only those become weary of angling who bring nothing to it but the idea of catching fish.
He was born with the gift of laughter and a sense that the world is mad....
Rafael Sabatini
He was born with the gift of laughter and a sense that the world is mad....
Rafael Sabatini
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Re: Chapter 5: Spoofing and secrecy
It may seem paranoid, but I don't give special treatment to the government. I apply skepticism like a blanket. If you pick and choose where to apply skepticism, you are leaving yourself vulnerable. If you're suspicious and skeptical of the government, the weakness would be slighly increased gullibility to government conspiracy theories.
There are points in a worldview that require trust, of course. But they should only be applied after careful consideration, and never as the default for brevity sake. Do we trust scientists and their achievements? No, at least not until we verify that they've followed proper process. Is there a way to streamline this, to make the entire enterprise more trustworthy? Peer review does that to an extent. But trust is best served with a grain of salt. Peer reviewed journals are trustworthy, but never in an absolute sense.
There are points in a worldview that require trust, of course. But they should only be applied after careful consideration, and never as the default for brevity sake. Do we trust scientists and their achievements? No, at least not until we verify that they've followed proper process. Is there a way to streamline this, to make the entire enterprise more trustworthy? Peer review does that to an extent. But trust is best served with a grain of salt. Peer reviewed journals are trustworthy, but never in an absolute sense.
What page is this on? I need to read it again.Penny wrote:I disagree with Carl Sagan's implication that such cover ups are largely for the benefit of the populace.
“In the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and has been widely regarded as a bad move.” - Douglas Adams
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Re: Chapter 5: Spoofing and secrecy
I did say that it was merely an implication....not a statement of absolute certainty - but it is how I interpreted two paragraphs (on page 84 of my book) one which begins - Here again, we have every reason....... and the next following paragraph which begins - In addition, something that both the Central Intelligence Agency and the US Air Force worried about then was UFO's as a means of clogging communication channels in a national crisis......Penny wrote:
I disagree with Carl Sagan's implication that such cover ups are largely for the benefit of the populace.
What page is this on? I need to read it again.
In fact...the next following paragraph contains the phrase: 'The worst that would happen, from the military's point of view, is that there would be one more acknowledged instance of the American public being misled or lied to in the interest of national security.'
I thought Sagan was implying something here because he didn't want to state it baldly - perhaps it is a wrong perception. I do try not to be too cynical.....It is not an attractive trait.
I think I am skeptical.....I think as a nation we are generally more skeptical that America.
Hardly anyone here stands to attention for the national anthem. Mind you, our national anthem tune does not inspire one to leap to attention, and the words are really quite alarming when one reads further than the first verse. Third verse reads:-
Lord, grant that Marshal Wade
May by thy mighty aid
Victory bring.
May he sedition hush and like a torrent rush,
Rebellious Scots to crush.
God save the King.
It's Burns Night this weekend - and we shall have haggis and whiskey - and toast the Scots. See, we don't mind being gullible under the correct circumstances.
Only those become weary of angling who bring nothing to it but the idea of catching fish.
He was born with the gift of laughter and a sense that the world is mad....
Rafael Sabatini
He was born with the gift of laughter and a sense that the world is mad....
Rafael Sabatini
- ant
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Re: Chapter 5: Spoofing and secrecy
I've just started this chapter. Sagan, early on, states the following:
Is it a matter of evidence that INTELLIGENT life exists?
How good is the evidence that intelligent life exists?
But does Sagan simply believe that on one of the millions of planets that are detectable, there is intelligent life that will be able to decipher radio signals, or is this a matter of evidence?
Of the millions of accounts from people who claim they have seen a legitimate UFO, Sagan would probably say the odds are against it was a legit sighting.
Of the millions of planets detectable in our horizon, Sagan would say the odds are one of them has intelligent life.
Evidence? None
Note that Sagan essentially dismisses all of the millions of accounts by people who claim to have seen a UFO."I often am asked , 'Do you believe in UFO's?' I'm always struck by how the questions is phrased , the suggestion that this is a matter of belief and not evidence. I'm almost never asked, How good is the evidence that UFO's are alien spaceships?'
Is it a matter of evidence that INTELLIGENT life exists?
How good is the evidence that intelligent life exists?
But does Sagan simply believe that on one of the millions of planets that are detectable, there is intelligent life that will be able to decipher radio signals, or is this a matter of evidence?
Of the millions of accounts from people who claim they have seen a legitimate UFO, Sagan would probably say the odds are against it was a legit sighting.
Of the millions of planets detectable in our horizon, Sagan would say the odds are one of them has intelligent life.
Evidence? None
- Interbane
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Re: Chapter 5: Spoofing and secrecy
We are evidence. Intelligent life is able to spontaneously evolve on H-congruous worlds. Whatever the odds of our coming to sentience might be, they are more than 0. So when you have a large enough pool of H-congruous planets, the probability approaches 1. Evidence for this sort of claim isn't going to be a footprint in the sand.ant wrote:Of the millions of planets detectable in our horizon, Sagan would say the odds are one of them has intelligent life.
Evidence? None
As for people claiming to see a UFO, it's an order of magnitude more improbable than the above, approaching 0. Because not only would sentient life need to have developed on one of those other planets, but it would have to survive killing itself, develop interstellar technology, have a moral compass not to eradicate us and take our precious resources, manage not to be detected by anything but country folk without a camera, etc.
There is nothing wrong with Sagan's position, but you sound incredulous at it for some reason.
“In the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and has been widely regarded as a bad move.” - Douglas Adams
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Re: Chapter 5: Spoofing and secrecy
Of course this is homocentric and highly presumptuous - "We" are the ultimate referential systemWe are evidence.
Again, highly presumptuous with zero evidence regarding spontaneity and alien "intelligence" however that might appear.Intelligent life is able to spontaneously evolve on H-congruous worlds.
.Evidence for this sort of claim isn't going to be a footprint in the sand
We actually do not yet know how intelligence would be defined outside our own. Saying it isn't going to be found assumes that we will know it when we see it though. Again, highly presumptuous.
Thanks
By they way.., I personally think there life "out there" and I do support SETI.
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Re: Chapter 5: Spoofing and secrecy
I am most impressed, when looking at things from the scientific viewpoint, that everything, including ourselves, is comprised of vibrations. We are mostly vibration......and when things vibrate at different frequencies we can be unaware of them. Bodies can pass through walls, I have been led to understand....if the walls vibrate more slowly than the body in question.
Thinking about this.....fills me with awe and makes me feel cheerful. I mean aliens/spirit beings, vibrating at different frequencies could be walking among us and we wouldn't be aware of them, nor they of us....especially if they lived life at a much slower or faster pace. Isn't this what Einstein was getting at with E=Mc2?
Thinking about this.....fills me with awe and makes me feel cheerful. I mean aliens/spirit beings, vibrating at different frequencies could be walking among us and we wouldn't be aware of them, nor they of us....especially if they lived life at a much slower or faster pace. Isn't this what Einstein was getting at with E=Mc2?
Only those become weary of angling who bring nothing to it but the idea of catching fish.
He was born with the gift of laughter and a sense that the world is mad....
Rafael Sabatini
He was born with the gift of laughter and a sense that the world is mad....
Rafael Sabatini
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Re: Chapter 5: Spoofing and secrecy
If evolution is a fact(it is), and the universe is naturalistic(the best bet going), then abiogenesis is also a fact. There's a library's worth of evidence supporting this position.ant wrote:Again, highly presumptuous with zero evidence regarding spontaneity and alien "intelligence" however that might appear.
If we're speaking of intelligent life, there would be no excuse not to mention homo sapiens. How can you possibly talk about sentient life without a reference to humans? It is homocentric by necessity, not presumption.ant wrote:Of course this is homocentric and highly presumptuous - "We" are the ultimate referential system
You're trying so hard to disagree with me that you're talking out of your butt.
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Re: Chapter 5: Spoofing and secrecy
No one stated it's wrong to mention homosapiens when discussing intelligence.
The question is whether or not homosapiens can define "intelligence" adequately enough to recognize it in something completely alien to its species. To say that we know what intelligence is universally is homocentric.
Interbane wrote:
are you trying to provoke me?
you're so far up yours when you come out to talk to us all, you wreak of the scent of feces.
The question is whether or not homosapiens can define "intelligence" adequately enough to recognize it in something completely alien to its species. To say that we know what intelligence is universally is homocentric.
Interbane wrote:
talking out of my butt?You're trying so hard to disagree with me that you're talking out of your butt.
are you trying to provoke me?
you're so far up yours when you come out to talk to us all, you wreak of the scent of feces.