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Chapter 7: The Demon-Haunted World

Posted: Thu Aug 15, 2002 7:29 am
by Thurkon17
Chapter 7: The Demon-Haunted World

Please use this thread for discussion Chapter 7: The Demon-Haunted World.

We read and discussed this book back in 2003 and then had a live chat session with Ann Druyan. We've decided to pull this discussion out of the BookTalk.org Archives and give the book a second reading/discussion and chat with Ann Druyan. Ann has agreed to another live chat too.

Below you can read the older posts. Just look at the dates on each post to see if they are from the original discussion or the current discussion. Many of the members from 2003 are still members now so don't be shy about responding to their posts.

-- Chris O'Connor


I was just reading through Chapter 7, The Demon-Haunted World

I will not comment until I am finished, but as the chapter contains much about demons, witchcraft, and the use of the Malleus Maleficarum to torture and burn witches, I thought it would be of use to post a link to the full text...in case anyone is interested in reading it in further detail.

Interesting stuff.

More on Demons and Aliens

Posted: Fri Aug 16, 2002 8:34 am
by Thurkon17
Further observations and insight from Chapter 7:

In the Malleus, Kramer and Sprenger reveal that "devils...busy themselves by interfering with the process of normal copulation, by obtaining human semen, and themselves transferring it."

Then later:

There is no spaceship in these [demon] stories. But most of the central elements of the alien abduction account are present, including sexually obsessive non-humans who live in the sky, walk through walls, communicate telepathically, and perform breeding experiments on the human species.

It is a strange coincidence that both past and present reports of human contact with those supernatural forces (demons and aliens, respectively) have so many common factors...and that sexuality is such a huge integral component. Sagan makes a compelling argument that the human inner psyche may need to create such visions, dreams or hallucinations to satisfy longings, fulfil suppressed desires or assuage feelings of guilt.

Re: More on Demons and Aliens

Posted: Fri Aug 16, 2002 6:09 pm
by ZachSylvanus
Forgive me for my post to come, since I don't have the book in front of me to quote from...

I also enjoy the part where Sagan is discussing the presence of incubi and succubi. If I recall correctly, he states something to the effect that they must exist (in the mentality of the middle ages), because virgin women would never sleep around before they were married. Supernatural elements were the only explanation, because Satan is like that. Its an odd disparity with the common thought, that humanity was inherently flawed towards bad (original sin), and yet they could do no wrong in the case of pre-marital liaisons....

Re: More on Demons and Aliens

Posted: Sun Aug 18, 2002 9:16 pm
by LanDroid
Quote from the Mallius link above:

"It has been estimated by Dr. Marija Gimbutas, professor of archaeology at the University of California, that as many as 9 million people, overwhelmingly women, were burned or hanged during the witch-craze."

Good Gaaaaaaaaaaawd! I had no idea it was anywhere near that many!

Re: Chapter 7: The Demon-Haunted World

Posted: Tue Jan 13, 2015 5:59 pm
by Chris OConnor
From this point forward all posts are new and a part of our current discussion. Posts up to this point were from the previous discussion of The Demon-Haunted World.

Re: Chapter 7: The Demon-Haunted World

Posted: Sat Jan 24, 2015 2:38 pm
by Penelope
This chapter was interesting and horrific in equal parts.

I hadn't thought about the similarities between demons and aliens. Well, I hadn't really thought about either of them much at all.

The witches passages are terrifying. In reading them I realised that it isn't demons, aliens, monsters or devils that scare me, but man's inhumanity to man. Inhumanity isn't really the word is it? Too much of an understatement. There are no depths to which humanity won't sink in perpetrating suffering. Recent revelations of child abuse by people in powerful positions have certainly made me wonder where their inspiration comes from.

I prefer to concentrate on joy and poetry and humour. But, I am enjoying this exercise in seeing what science can protect us from, and indeed, its lighting a candle in the dark.

I wouldn't read malleus maleficarum if you paid me a pension.

Re: Chapter 7: The Demon-Haunted World

Posted: Sat Jan 24, 2015 7:44 pm
by youkrst
yeah don't blame ya but it is interesting
The Malleus Maleficarum asserts that three elements are necessary for witchcraft: the evil intentions of the witch, the help of the Devil, and the Permission of God.


great to see the good bishop turfed him out.
Kramer wrote the Malleus shortly after being expelled from Innsbruck by the local bishop after a failed attempt to conduct his own witchcraft prosecution. Kramer's purpose in writing the book was to explain his own views on witchcraft, systematically refute arguments claiming that witchcraft does not exist, discredit those who expressed skepticism about its reality,


oddly enough i have seen the modern version of this in local churches.

the old "the Devil is real" schtick, yeah he's real alright and he lives between your ears :lol: use a bit of critical thinking to cast him out :-D

Re: Chapter 7: The Demon-Haunted World

Posted: Wed Jan 28, 2015 6:17 pm
by ant
Right out of the gate, Sagan provides evidence that he is uniformed regarding traditional religions and their relationship with science:
So in an age when traditional religions have been under withering fire from science, is it not natural to wrap up the old gods and demons in scientific raiment and call them aliens?
I am not going to either encourage or participate in a debate about religion. But for Sagan to say that traditional religions (ie the catholic church) have been under "withering fire from science" is an utterance of gibberish.

Catholicism, for one, has never been on record as being at odds with science. Frankly, the Church was never "under fire" about evolution. Nothing in their cannon states denies evolution.

It is a branch of literalism that has been at odds with scientific explanandum, not Catholicism.
Literalism is not a representative of traditional religion.


Buddhism, to my knowledge, also has never been under fire from science.

"An Author of All" is the perspective religion has offered. It is a philosophical perspective.


The exploration of nature by means of scientific methodology does not offer teleological or atheistic conclusions.

Science is a tool for observing phenomena that are observable: and able to measured.
AS such..,

Scientific methodology includes the following:

Objective observation: Measurement and data (possibly although not necessarily using mathematics as a tool)
Evidence

Experiment and/or observation as benchmarks for testing hypotheses

Induction: reasoning to establish general rules or conclusions drawn from facts or examples

Repetition

Critical analysis

Verification and testing: critical exposure to scrutiny, peer review and assessment
Science is the pursuit and application of knowledge and understanding of the natural and social world following a systematic methodology based on evidence.
http://www.sciencecouncil.org/definition


Sagan needs to stick (well, he's actually dead now) to searching for those little green men he believes exist despite not having an ounce of evidence (see above).

Re: Chapter 7: The Demon-Haunted World

Posted: Wed Jan 28, 2015 7:12 pm
by Interbane
I am not going to either encourage or participate in a debate about religion. But for Sagan to say that traditional religions (ie the catholic church) have been under "withering fire from science" is an utterance of gibberish.
This sort of comment will encourage debate whether you want it to or not. I think you're wrong. Religion has without a doubt been under withering fire from science. There is conflict between religion and science, in practice if not in theory. There the rubber hits the road, there is conflict. No amount of hedging will make it otherwise.

Re: Chapter 7: The Demon-Haunted World

Posted: Wed Jan 28, 2015 9:34 pm
by youkrst
indeed :-D

http://christianity.net.au/questions/question37
Why are many parts of the bible inconsistent with scientific fact?

Why are many parts of the bible inconsistent with Scientific fact? How did Adam actually live for 930 years? This surely is impossible. Genetic research shows that Africans were the “first” race on earth, what is the Bible’s take on this? I am a Christian but many of my non-Christian friends have been challenging the Historical and Scientific “inconsistencies” in the bible. What can I say when such arguments become slightly aggressive?

- Anonymous

Thanks for your questions.

Historical and Scientific challenges to the Bible are issues that many people struggle with. And while many apparent inconsistencies can be explained through careful investigation, there will always be things that puzzle us and can’t be explained. When there are apparent inconsistencies between the bible and science, the Christian’s stance toward the Bible is to trust what God has told us and recognise that we may not have the whole picture.
let's look at another religion :adore:

http://wikiislam.net/wiki/Scientific_Er ... _the_Quran
Stars are Missiles Shot at Devils
Main Article: Mistranslations of Qur'an 67:5

The author of the Qur'an does not seem to know the difference between stars (giant balls of gas thousands of times larger than the earth) and meteorites which are small rocky masses of debris which brighten up after entering the earth's atmosphere. Many ancient people confused the two, as meteorites look like stars that are streaking across the sky; this is why there were often called shooting stars or falling stars. In the following verse, the Qur'an claims that Allah uses stars as missiles to ward away devils. This repeats a common Arab myth at the time the Qur'an was first recited.

And verily We have beautified the world's heaven with stars/lamps, and We have made them missiles for the devils, and for them We have prepared the doom of flame.
Qur'an 67:5
Except such as snatch away something by stealth, and they are pursued by a flaming fire, of piercing brightness.
Qur'an 37:10
perhaps final revelation has been claimed too early :)