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Ch. 2 - The Nature of Belief

#26: April - June 2006 & Nov. - Dec. 2010 (Non-Fiction)
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Chris OConnor

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Ch. 2 - The Nature of Belief

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Ch. 2 - The Nature of BeliefPlease use this thread to discuss Chapter 2 - The Nature of Belief. Or you are free to create and use your own threads.
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riverc0il
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Re: Ch. 2 - The Nature of Belief

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Time for some criticism, aside from the fact that I thought a brief definition would have sufficed instead of pages of primer. Harris tends to stick with the bible and koran for his usage of examples despite having studied a various amount of Eastern and Western religious traditions. Also, most of his examples in Chapter 2 tend to draw exclusively from the Christian tradition. Not that I don't fully agree with much of what Harris writes, but I would appreciate a more multicultural approach. Is this just a Western and Middle East problem? How about faiths in Japan? Just a thought.Also, Harris is continually hammering away at "faith" but all is examples are from highly structured organized religions. Are we really talking about "faith" or are we talking about organized religion with wacked out scripture? Often times, I propose that Harris is indeed using examples of organized religion but generalizing to all "faith." There is a realm of belief and faith in a higher power or deity that can strictly confirm to reason and rationality. It is a very narrow realm that can co-exist completely with science, but I do belief it is a legitiment belief since science has no pre-big-bang answers yet. There is much science has left unanswered and I belief faith that leaves open possibilities where science has no answers is legitiment belief in the sense that Harris suggests is rational even though I remain an athiest.The problems that result from the examples of belief that Harris uses almost all appear within the Christian and Islamic traditions. Yes, death and destruction often are delivered to people in the name of belief in faith, but that logically does not conclude that all faith is bad just because the belief is not have evidence. Faith can exist, and does exist, without reliance on ancient scripture advancing acts of hate and aggression. Faith can exist without organized religion and leaders of said organized religion proposing official church doctorine in the name of an improvable deithy that consistantly changes its mind according to history's redicitions of the infalable popes, for example. Faith outside of organized religion isn't even paid lip service by Harris, it is out right ignored, which I contend is a major weakness in the book and I would love to see addressed.EDIT: Ha!! Just re-read my post and realized I my criticism unintentionally comes off as a defense of faith without organized religion! Interesting arguement coming from an athiest I guess. Edited by: riverc0il at: 3/31/06 7:35 pm
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riverc0il
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Re: Ch. 2 - The Nature of Belief

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Harris provides a brief primer on the neuro-psychological basis of belief. An entire book could be written on this subject and I think it is beyond the scope of this book. Harris should have just stuck with a description and left out the background which rather bored me (despite my psychological background). Not surprisingly, if you read the back cover, Harris' brief bio details his current doctoral work in the neural basis of belief.Once the ground work has been laid out, Harris separates out legitimate belief which has reasoning, rational aspects, and a basis in reality with irrational belief, which Harris lays out several faith based examples. Harris seems to enjoy using parallel examples and showing how similar beliefs taken out of the context of faith and religion and put into everyday relationships makes the belief look asinine but people accept those parallel beliefs in a faith based concept. The central point of the chapter seems to be that belief without evidence is ludicrous and Harris states that the belief system of faith itself is essentially insane using a parallel with people who would believe so strongly about anything else in this world without belief. Faith is an exception when it comes to a person being asked to elaborate their proof, reasons, and evidence for their belief. Religion seems to be the only belief in this world tolerated without evidence in an otherwise reasoning world. As Harris puts it (p72): "This leaves billions of us believing what no sane person could believe on his own." An insane belief structure is reinforced because it is so pervasive in society, a logical fallacy that something must be true because everyone else believes it to be.Here are two of my favorite passages from Chapter Two which struck a chord.p65"However far you feel you have fled the parish (even in you are just now adjusting the mirror on the Hubble Space Telescope), you are likely to be the product of a culture that has elevated belief, in the absence of evidence, to the highest place in the hierarchy of human virtues. Ignorance is the true coinage of this realm
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riverc0il
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Re: Ch. 2 - The Nature of Belief

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DH, you raise a really good point, thank you for bringing that point to the discussion. I think you may misinterpert Harris, or at least are putting forth an opinion on Harris's perspective that lacks evidence within the book. Harris certainly does present a twist of the faith angle to the exclusion of all others to support his thesis. But I do not see anything in Chapter One or Chapter Two that suggests Harris is tied to National Exceptionalism and Moral Superiority. The Geopolitical points you raise are excellent, many Middle Easterners do feel threatened by encroaching Americanism and the encroaching influence of American Styled Capitolism. They should be wary!! Indeed, Americanizing other countries has essentially been our country's strategy for eliminating hostilities and forming partnerships. Tie nations together economically via multi-national corporations which ensures cooperation at the risk of destroying local culture in favor of Americanizing the other country.I am not sure if you have begun reading yet, but Harris ties this into the text I believe. For example, much of the Islamic Culture that Middle-Easterners feel is threatened revolves around their religion. Lack of women's rights, male domination, govenrments founded on Islam instead of secular ideals, etc. So I think Harris is taking the arguement that those Geopolitical issues are inherent in the faith of the terrorists, because the Geopolitical issues are the result of the religion.But whether this arguement holds water or not (I suspect both Chomsky and Harris are both right), I do not see an attack on Chomsky idealogically. Is there some back history on Sam Harris we should be aware of? Could you expand on your reasons why you believe Harris is in direct conflict with Chomsky? To be honest, I have read some Chomsky but have not read up on his thoughts on Terrorism and 9/11. Edited by: riverc0il at: 3/31/06 9:47 pm
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Re: Ch. 2 - The Nature of Belief

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"The men who committed the atrocities of September 11 were certainly not "cowards," as they were repeatedly described in the Western media, nor were they lunatics in any ordinary sense. They were men of faith
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Re: Ch. 2 - The Nature of Belief

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Imgaine (god forbid!) that you are a Catholic. If Canada gave money & arms to Mexico and Mexico invaded and took over your city, killed your wife & familiy, and forced you to live in a shack on the beach would you join the resistance against the Mexican invaders? If suicide bombing looked like having by far the greatest impact on Mexico/Canada, might you even consider that? Would being a Catholic be at all important in your considerations? Surely the fact of the Mexican invasion, with Canadian support, would be the overwhelming factor! That is, geopolitics would far outweigh any religious considerations.
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Re: Ch. 2 - The Nature of Belief

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Yes. In your set up scenario...it is as you say.I was a Catholic...but then I grew up.Mr. P. The one thing of which I am positive is that there is much of which to be negative - Mr. P.Once you perceive the irrevocable truth, you can no longer justify the irrational denial. - Mr. P.The pain in hell has two sides. The kind you can touch with your hand; the kind you can feel in your heart...Scorsese's "Mean Streets"I came to kick ass and chew Bubble Gum...and I am all out of Bubble Gum - They Live, Roddy Piper
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riverc0il
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Re: Ch. 2 - The Nature of Belief

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mal4mac, good point. i still think geopolitics is a definite influence on a decision to be hostile and violent. however, i think geopolitics is not sufficient along to generate suicide bombings in most cultures. religion being a part of culture, i think religion has an influence on people's decision regarding how they carry out their geopolitically influenced violence.
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Re: Ch. 2 - The Nature of Belief

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Quote:riverc0il said: Faith outside of organized religion isn't even paid lip service by Harris, it is out right ignored, which I contend is a major weakness in the book and I would love to see addressed.Religion is a path to power. Faith without organized religion has no influence.
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riverc0il
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Re: Ch. 2 - The Nature of Belief

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True enough LanDroid, though it is still a glarring omission in a book suggesting an "End of Faith."
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