Re: Ch. 1 - Reason in Exile
Posted: Fri May 19, 2006 7:20 pm
Mr.P, what in the world does a crooked CEO have to do with a religious crusade!? I fail to see how immoral and unethical business men are related to a religious crusade.
However, Christian Fundamentalists are killing abortion doctors.riverc0il wrote:Thoughts in Detailp11 introduces the text with a story regarding a suicide bomber who's parents feel "tremendous pride" that their son has killed other people in a suicide attack. Most notably, the reason for the pride is based on the religious principle that people are rewarded for carrying out a holy war and in particular dieing for the cause. This sets up the most fundamental problem on modern religion in my mind: inevitably people praying to different gods potentially going to war against each other for the same exact reason: for their particular god's favor. Striking. Also interesting is the honor attached to this style of killing. We could learn something from the imaginary Klingon code of honor from Star Trek fame about honor in this regard.p14 Harris interestingly links in sentence structure the "metaphysics of martyrdom" (which I interpret to mean Radical Islamism) and literal belief in the Book of Revelation and labels them both "fantastic notions." While I appreciate the linkage of both beliefs being fantastical notions, I must point out that at least Christian Fundamentalists are not conducting suicide bombings to further their belief. However, I guess it could be argued that they need to be here when Armageddon strikes in order to "be saved," so they do not have the motive. Perhaps with motive this distinction between these two radical beliefs might be different. But it should be noted that a religion that once conducted a religious crusade no longer kills in the name of their god, which argues against Harris stance that all faith needs to be elimited for the human race to safely progress.p15 "I hope to show that the very ideal of religious tolerance
As one of those people who is still around, I'll talk back.DWill wrote:This is kind of weird--talking to people who mostly aren't around anymore. It was a good idea (Chris?) to put this thread back up, though. They were having an excellent discussion. I haven't even been able to read all of it, but I want to finish it. They start out with the problem of whether Harris is accurate in attributing a single cause--religious devotion--to suicide bombings by Muslims.
Rivercoil's post was from May 2006.However, Christian Fundamentalists are killing abortion doctors.
Glad you're going to lead this one Riveroil.
Harris prefers a monolithic view which ignores the factors other than religion which fomult homocide bombers. The fact is that the culture they live in with its poverty, limited opportunities, political indoctrination (hatred of the West), and machismo are major factors.DWill wrote:This is kind of weird--talking to people who mostly aren't around anymore. It was a good idea (Chris?) to put this thread back up, though. They were having an excellent discussion. I haven't even been able to read all of it, but I want to finish it. They start out with the problem of whether Harris is accurate in attributing a single cause--religious devotion--to suicide bombings by Muslims. Harris is familiar with all the opinions that the decision to kill oneself for a cause is multi-factorial. He says, come on, no--in this case we have such strong evidence that it's all about the religion. Why are we insisting on leaving the door open? He says that even in the case of the nominally secularist Tamil Tigers in Sri Lanka, the underlying energy for suicide attacks comes from a culture "steeped....in otherworldiness" (229). In the particular case of suicide bombings by Islamists, the motivation, however, is right there for us to see. We have only to read the Koran to see where all this comes from.
I would again bring up Robert Wright's mention of scriptural determinism and suggest that Harris believes that what is written in a holy book determines the beliefs--and then the actions--of adherents to the faith. Others, such as Wright, would say that scripture isn't so deterministic on believers. Harris' view does make one think of young men (and women) going to their deaths eagerly in anticipation of their reward in heaven. But I have in my mind a different image, of these young recruits needing, first, to be brainwashed, and second to be kept in the company of their masters who will make sure the indoctrination doesn't wear off. Somewhere I've either read about or seen in film such a scenario. It takes an extreme effort to get the recruits to give up their lives, despite what might be held up as the attractions of the afterlife. The otherwordly rewards I think are but one ingredient in the sales pitch. I wonder, too, about the women who blow themselves up. There might not be many of these, but according to Islam, would they have reason to expect a heavenly reward?
He's monolithic on the suicide bomber question. Poor Robert Wright, I guess he can't expect to catch a break from you. Scriptural determinism has nothing to do with his specific knowledge of scripture; I don't know if you realize that and can't tell if you understand that concept.stahrwe wrote: Harris prefers a monolithic view which ignores the factors other than religion which fomult homocide bombers. The fact is that the culture they live in with its poverty, limited opportunities, political indoctrination (hatred of the West), and machismo are major factors.
As for Wright, I would not place much stock in his comments regarding scripture, particularly the Judeo-Christian scriptures as he has demonstrated a consistent lack of knowledge and understanding of same.
I agree with your general perspective on the good/bad question regarding religion. We just have no accounting tools to decide the question with any objectivity, so all we have are opinions and our general sense of the matter to fall back on. My own sense is that religion has been on balance good, or at least useful or functional. It's my version of humanism that dictates this, but I don't need to go any further into it here.JulianTheApostate wrote:As one of those people who is still around, I'll talk back.DWill wrote:This is kind of weird--talking to people who mostly aren't around anymore. It was a good idea (Chris?) to put this thread back up, though. They were having an excellent discussion. I haven't even been able to read all of it, but I want to finish it. They start out with the problem of whether Harris is accurate in attributing a single cause--religious devotion--to suicide bombings by Muslims.
In my opinion, both supporters and opponents of religion attribute a lot of stuff to religion that's really due to human nature or real-circumstances. For example, there have been many wars in which all sides practiced the same religion, and there are many acts of charity performed by atheists. Claims that religion is responsible for war or tat religion is responsible for morality are too simplistic.
Now, it's entirely possible that religious divisions have increased the amount of warfare and persecution, over human history, by 10% (a number I'm pulling out of thin air). My personal opinion is that the negative impact of religion, which is exaggerated by atheists, exceeds the positive impact of religion, which is exaggerated by the devout.
Regarding terrorism, there have been lots of terrorists throughout history; al Qaeda, the IRA, violent anarchists, Marxist insurgents, the Contras, etc. Some of those groups aren't at all religious, and they all, in my mind, have been motivated by concerns beyond religion. After considering examples like those, Harris's "religion causes terrorism" argument seems too simplistic.
Wright had a chance to 'catch a break' by answering my question. Since he chose to ignore it; no break.DWill wrote:He's monolithic on the suicide bomber question. Poor Robert Wright, I guess he can't expect to catch a break from you. Scriptural determinism has nothing to do with his specific knowledge of scripture; I don't know if you realize that and can't tell if you understand that concept.stahrwe wrote: Harris prefers a monolithic view which ignores the factors other than religion which fomult homocide bombers. The fact is that the culture they live in with its poverty, limited opportunities, political indoctrination (hatred of the West), and machismo are major factors.
As for Wright, I would not place much stock in his comments regarding scripture, particularly the Judeo-Christian scriptures as he has demonstrated a consistent lack of knowledge and understanding of same.