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Re: Christ in Egypt: The Virgin Isis-Mery

Posted: Tue Nov 15, 2011 6:01 pm
by Native
Robert Tulip wrote:It looked to me like Native wrote the Milky Way material in the Hathor and Ogdoad wikipedia pages. They line up with Native's views but not with any other sources I have seen.
@Robert Tulip,
You are wrong in assuming me to be the Wikipedia author in this or other cases, because I´ve never have written anything on Wikipedia, but thanks for the credit anyway.

- I don´t understand if you haven´t seen any other sources with the same context that I posted above!?

Just make a google search on "Ogdoad+Mythology" and you´ll find a lots of links (133.000 results) that more or less describes and confirms my posted context on the matter of Stories of Creation and the supreme primordial/elementary and Milky Way deities.

Cheers Native

Re: Christ in Egypt: The Virgin Isis-Mery

Posted: Tue Nov 15, 2011 6:38 pm
by Native
@FTL99,
Robert, thanks for your great post above, however, I was hoping that Native would've provided us with his very own knowledge of milky way myths that exist throughout Christianity, or any other major modern religion for that matter, to see what he really knew for himself without help. I still don't think Native/Ivar Nielsen understands the point of Acharya's work at all - probably because he has never actually read it. I suppose that needs to be thoroughly explained to him.
AD:I don´t care of what you "don´t think" or what you "probably" states at all. Just as you don´t care how many times I write that I am recieving the Freethoughtnation Newsletters and read everything with great interests, you still say that I don´t.

- Now when proving both Robert and you wrong regarding the Wikipedia text on Ogdoad, you´ll politely of course offer me an apology for the wrong claims and suggestion, right?

- And in the future you´ll of course respect me for having my very own ideas and explanations that apparently correspond with other official texts, right?

Re: Christ in Egypt: The Virgin Isis-Mery

Posted: Tue Nov 15, 2011 7:26 pm
by Robert Tulip
Native, if you provide independent evidence I am open to being convinced. It is just that I have not seen any independent evidence to back your claims around Hathor and Isis being Milky Way Goddesses, or that the primeval mound refers to the Milky Way. These claims are not mentioned in books I have read about ancient Egypt, but I may have missed it. The Wikipedia entries do not provide sources.

Re: Christ in Egypt: The Virgin Isis-Mery

Posted: Wed Nov 16, 2011 11:07 am
by Native
@Robert,
You wrote:
Robert Tulip wrote:Native, if you provide independent evidence I am open to being convinced. It is just that I have not seen any independent evidence to back your claims around Hathor and Isis being Milky Way Goddesses, or that the primeval mound refers to the Milky Way. These claims are not mentioned in books I have read about ancient Egypt, but I may have missed it. The Wikipedia entries do not provide sources.
From en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hathor#Relationsh ... nd_symbols
“Hathor had a complex relationship with Ra, in one myth she is his eye and considered his daughter but later, when Ra assumes the role of Horus with respect to Kingship, she is considered Ra's mother. She absorbed this role from another cow goddess 'Mht wrt' ("Great flood") who was the mother of Ra in a creation myth and carried him between her horns. As a mother she gave birth to Ra each morning on the eastern horizon and as wife she conceives through union with him each day”.

“Hathor, along with the goddess Nut, was associated with the Milky Way during the third millennium B.C. when, during the fall and spring equinoxes, it aligned over and touched the earth where the sun rose and fell. The four legs of the celestial cow represented Nut or Hathor could, in one account, be seen as the pillars on which the sky was supported with the stars on their bellies constituting the Milky Way on which the solar barque of Ra, representing the sun, sailed”.

“An alternate name for Hathor, which persisted for 3,000 years, was Mehturt (also spelt Mehurt, Mehet-Weret, and Mehet-uret), meaning “great flood”, a direct reference to her being the Milky Way. The Milky Way was seen as a waterway in the heavens, sailed upon by both the sun deity and the moon, leading the ancient Egyptians to describe it as The Nile in the Sky”.

AD: This should be very clear: Hathor, and Nut, are directly connected to the Milky Way; Ra in his “boat of millions of years” is also directly connected to the Milky Way and not to the Sun as such.

I can elaborate more on the logics and mythical implications in this text if you like.

- But if you judge Wikipedia as a dependence source that cannot be taken seriously et all, read the links below which more or less states the very same.

On Hathor:

Read “Gods of the Egyptians”, by E. A. T. Wallis Budge. Page 428
Online Link: books.google.dk/books?id=coxXaPPoBUUC&a ... mp;f=false

And: http://www.ancientegyptonline.co.uk/hathor.html

Google and read results for “Hathor+Milky Way”.

On Isis:
experiencefestival.com/a/Isis_-_Mytholo ... /id/593822

Google and read the results for "Isis+Hathor+assimilation"

The logics of the Isis-Hathor assimilation: When Hathor being a Milky Way goddess and Isis culturally assimilates/overtakes the qualities; attributes and the connected mythological telling of Hathor in large, it is of course very logically also to connect Isis to the Milky Way – and to the creation story of the Milky Way itself.

- It is then on the first physical creation of the “Primordial Mound”, in the Milky Way centre, that Hathor/Isis /Mary/Neith/Nut - or other comparative goddesses – gives birth to the luminous Milky Way light of Ra, also mentioned as “The First Light”; The Enclosed Light”, created from the Ogdoad 4 (8) basical elementary deities. Ra is then logically the light of the Milky Way and not the light of the Sun which logically enough is created some time after the creation of the Primordial Mound.

In any myths of Creation that describes a “forthcoming land” or “soil being pushed up from the waters” or "man being created out of clay" etc. etc. this is connected to the creation of the Primordial Mound and to the Milky Way because this creation is started off by the 4 (8) Ogdoad elementary deities that created the first physically creator deities belonging to the Milky Way luminous centre.

The first physical creating is RA emerging as the radiant light of the Milky Way; then creating the 2 half hemisphere “lunar-like-crescent” stylized figures/creators of the vaulting Milky Way, and lastly creating the full Milky Way contour of the "Heavenly Serpent" or the full "Milky Way River" that give origin for the “Flood Myths” all over the world. (Not because of any sin – but just because the river runs in the heaven clearly observable all around the Earth).

Google and read also "Emergence Myths" and "Milky Way Myths"

Cheers Native

Re: Christ in Egypt: The Virgin Isis-Mery

Posted: Wed Nov 16, 2011 12:08 pm
by tat tvam asi
Native wrote:Just as you don´t care how many times I write that I am recieving the Freethoughtnation Newsletters and read everything with great interests, you still say that I don´t.
Hold on now, you've diverted the subject from Murdocks books to the FTN news letters, which, are not Murdocks books. FTL was saying that you have not read her books and that it shows. It does show actually. Reading the news letters does not amount to reading the actual books. And the point is that if go ahead and read the books you might understand where Murdock is coming from...

Re: Christ in Egypt: The Virgin Isis-Mery

Posted: Wed Nov 16, 2011 3:33 pm
by Native
tat tvam asi wrote:
Native wrote:Just as you don´t care how many times I write that I am recieving the Freethoughtnation Newsletters and read everything with great interests, you still say that I don´t.
Hold on now, you've diverted the subject from Murdocks books to the FTN news letters, which, are not Murdocks books. FTL was saying that you have not read her books and that it shows. It does show actually. Reading the news letters does not amount to reading the actual books. And the point is that if go ahead and read the books you might understand where Murdock is coming from...
For the time being, the only questionable issue that has come up regarding the works of Murdock, is that of the deities connected to the Milky Way.

It began with my post of Sun Nov 06, 2011 5:03 pm dealing with the question of comparisons between Hathor/Neith/Isis(Mary).

FTL then replied:
FTL99 wrote:(Wed Nov 09, 2011 3:58 pm) What you are bring up here assuming we don't know anything about is old news to Acharya. She discusses the Hathor connection to the milky way in her first book, Christ Conspiracy, page 97 from 1999. Acharya simply doesn't spend any time on milky way myths because I don't think she sees it as relevant to her work. What milky way myths have found their way into Christianity that have been verified & confirmed by reputable scholars?
- I´ve read the Christ Conspiracy here: books.google.com/books?id=KnIYRi3upbEC& ... mp;f=false - where Hathor is mentioned on:

Page 97 - quoted as being connected to the Milky Way.
Page 156 - quoted being connected to the Moon.

(Which is very interesting in itself. The qouted scholars obviously cannot agree on which celestial mytho-cosmological object the greatest goddess Hathor is connected to - even there is a huge mytho-cosmological difference betwen milky way creative forces compared to the more inferior lunar forces) (This also shows that there is a huge mythological confusion going on where the Milky Way half hemisphere crescent is scholarly interpreted to be a lunar crescent symbol - as I have stated before)

- I would not have any problems sticking strict to the Virgin Isis/Mary topic in this tread, if not for the very unpleasent and nit-picking personal comments from FTL also mudding up this tread up by mixing this tread with an old tread on Frethoughtnation Forum.

So: I´ve read the book in question and besides this, I think the solar astrotheology/mythology is very easy to understand as a mythological hypothesis - even it, in my opinion, has some logical explanation problems regarding connecting the solar deity to a certain globally row of seasonal and astrotheological rituals where the different hemisphere solar seasons are opposite each other.

If the solar hero is born at 25 th. of december on the northern hemisphere, he dies at the same time on the southern hemisphere. But I´m sure someone can link me to a logical explanation of this astrotheological paradox. Eventually by again accusing me for not having read a relevant book. . .

- With this comment I´ll hold my horses and leave it all to yourself - unless someone adresses me with further factual questions or the usual nit-picking comments.

Cheers Native

Re: Christ in Egypt: The Virgin Isis-Mery

Posted: Wed Nov 16, 2011 3:45 pm
by Robert Tulip
Native - thanks for the Hathor - Milky Way links, that is good.

I still don't see where the Egyptian creation myth saw the Primordial Mound as the Milky Way. That looks unlikely and speculative to my reading.

Re: Christ in Egypt: The Virgin Isis-Mery

Posted: Thu Nov 17, 2011 5:23 am
by Native
Robert Tulip wrote:Native - thanks for the Hathor - Milky Way links, that is good.

I still don't see where the Egyptian creation myth saw the Primordial Mound as the Milky Way. That looks unlikely and speculative to my reading.
Hello Robert,
I fully understand the difficulties in taking in the concept of how the ancient people grasped the mytho-cosmological knowledge of the Creation.

On the other hand, maybe it demands more training for me in order to launch my ideas better and clearer?

For my part it has taken me 35 years of mythological and cosmological ponderings to get where I am now.

- If you would like me to go into a deeper explaining here, I would like to do that.

In the mean time: Have you read my articles of Mythology and Cosmology here:

"The Milky Way Mythology and the Stories of Creation" - http://vixra.org/abs/1109.0065
And:
"New Solar and Galaxy Formation Knowledge" - http://vixra.org/abs/1109.0013

- These 2 articles can be read as a combination of knowledge as well as descriptions of the significant differencies between ancient and modern ideas/hypothesis and knowledge.

Cheers Native

Re: Christ in Egypt: The Virgin Isis-Mery

Posted: Thu Nov 17, 2011 6:22 am
by Robert Tulip
Native, I read your first paper, and agree with FTL99's comments on it. You are forcing myth into a schema of your own devising.

The myth of Icarus shows that the idea of a chariot pulling the sun was widespread. See picture of Apollo below. You deny this.

Saturn marks the limit of the visible solar system. Its orbit of nearly thirty years, and Jupiter's orbit of twelve years, form the structure of time, with their combined orbit of 20 years forming the Mayan K'atun.

The Egyptian Geb and Nut separated by Shu symbolise the earth and stars separated by the air. Making this into a Milky Way myth is forced.

The Egyptians saw the constellation Argo (Noah's Ark) as a stellar boat. This constellation is not visible from Denmark. It has the same shape as the Osiris standing on a boat in your paper.

The 'wheels within wheels' from Ezekiel has a far simpler and more accurate interpretation - precession surrounds the year which surrounds the day. Your depiction of the Milky Way surrounding the wheel of the stars is not correct, because the Milky Way moves with the rest of the stars.

In the Bible, the tree of life is the zodiac, not the Milky Way.

I welcome your interest in these big topics, but as these questions indicate, your claims are highly speculative and look dubious.

Here is an ancient depiction of the Sun God Apollo.
Image

Re: Christ in Egypt: The Virgin Isis-Mery

Posted: Thu Nov 17, 2011 11:26 am
by Native
Robert Tulip wrote:Native, I read your first paper, and agree with FTL99's comments on it. You are forcing myth into a schema of your own devising.

The myth of Icarus shows that the idea of a chariot pulling the sun was widespread. See picture of Apollo below. You deny this.

Saturn marks the limit of the visible solar system. Its orbit of nearly thirty years, and Jupiter's orbit of twelve years, form the structure of time, with their combined orbit of 20 years forming the Mayan K'atun.

The Egyptian Geb and Nut separated by Shu symbolise the earth and stars separated by the air. Making this into a Milky Way myth is forced.

The Egyptians saw the constellation Argo (Noah's Ark) as a stellar boat. This constellation is not visible from Denmark. It has the same shape as the Osiris standing on a boat in your paper.

The 'wheels within wheels' from Ezekiel has a far simpler and more accurate interpretation - precession surrounds the year which surrounds the day. Your depiction of the Milky Way surrounding the wheel of the stars is not correct, because the Milky Way moves with the rest of the stars.

In the Bible, the tree of life is the zodiac, not the Milky Way.

I welcome your interest in these big topics, but as these questions indicate, your claims are highly speculative and look dubious.

Here is an ancient depiction of the Sun God Apollo.
Image
Robert,
I was really hoping to stay on the topic of the Primeval Mound. I maybe should have linked you to another Mytho-Cosmological article which is here: jcf.org/new/forum/viewtopic.php?t=3701& ... p;start=15 Page 2; Post subject: 01. Milky Way Mythology and further on.

I´ll only comment on some of your issues here.

1) The Icaros/Trundholm Wagon Myth: I don¨t deny the myth. But I totally refuse the consensus interpretation as being a totally unreflected and illogical mythological heritage.

Please tell me in your own words how anyone can depict an imagery of a horse pulling the sun over the daytime sky - and make a trustworthy and logical myth out of this scenario.

From http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trundholm_sun_chariot - “Sun goddess is Sunna. Every day, Sól rode through the sky on her chariot, pulled by the two horses Arvak and Alsvid. The sun chariot has been interpreted as representing a Bronze Age predecessor to the goddess”.

You see? Here the Trundholm text talks of a female solar deity on her chariot and not the usually male Father Sun deity. So you cannot even compare these 2 chariots at all.

The Trundholm Wagon is still more likely to deal with Milky Way goddess as I claim, where the "solar goddess" represents the very light of the Milky Way centre - which is located on the female Milky Way figure on the southern hemisphere in the constellation of Sagittarius. A centre that mythologically is called by the female name of "The Cosmic Womb" as well as the Primeval Mound.

2) Goddess Nut is certainly connected to the Milky Way Myths, right? We can discuss whether Geb represents the Earth or the soil building up on the Primeval Mound. I think the latter is the rigt one. In such case it all can be logically connected to both the Milky Way mythology and to the Story of Creation, right? Google "goddess nut+milky way". Or just read here http://www.crystalinks.com/nute.html

3) Regarding the constellation of "Argo": http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argo_Navis "Argo Navis is the only one of the 48 constellations listed by the 2nd century astronomer Ptolemy that is no longer officially recognised as a constellation.

- Have you any written or hieroglyphical evidence of claiming this supposedly 2nd century constellation for being a more than 2 thousand year old egyptian mythological constellation ship or the biblical Noah´s Ark ship?

4) Of course "the Milky Way seemingly moves with the rest of the stars". I cannot locate the actual problem out from this comment of yours.

5) If "In the Bible, the tree of life is the zodiac, not the Milky Way" - In which Garden of Eden-centre is then the Tree of Life located in the zodiac?

Can we maybe then now focus on the topic of the Primeval Mound?

Cheers Native