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First Thoughts on the Brothers Karamazov

Posted: Tue Feb 22, 2011 9:03 pm
by Robert Tulip
If I may begin with a mildly extended throat clearing, here is the tale of how I am acquiring a copy of The Brothers Karamazov, followed by some suggestions on how to approach the book.

One of my cars is rather old, and its radiator burst, partly my fault and also partly the carelessness of my son Alex who is nineteen. Driving a car whose radiator hisses like a dragon and has to be placated with water every ten miles or so to prevent nuclear meltdown is not fun. My mechanic told me I should buy a second hand radiator. After several phone calls I located one in Queanbeyan at a wrecker’s yard, about a thirty mile drive from my house, and conveniently close to some bookshops where I hoped to acquire a bargain copy of The Brothers Karamazov.

On the morning of the radiator adventure, I went off to pick up a copy of the Brothers K from said secondhand bookshop in Fyshwick. I also wanted a copy of The Trial by Franz Kafka for my sixteen year old daughter Diana, who told me she wanted to read it (just for fun I assume). I had Der Prozess, but that wasn’t good enough for us monoglots. I went to three bookshops all in the same group of shops. None of them had The Trial, and only one had Brothers K, but in a four point edition. After struggling with a fine print edition of Paradise Lost, I had no wish to repeat the experience. My efforts had failed. I picked up a copy of Budge’s Egyptian Religion, some short stories by Kipling, Nietzsche’s Twilight of the Idols, a book by Jonathan Franzen who my wife Caroline quite likes, Israel Finkelstein on Biblical Archaeology, and a couple of other remainder bargains.

So then to the wrecker’s yard. Australia is a very white country, with big Asian and Arab communities but not many Africans, so I was surprised that the yard owner was a recent black immigrant from Africa. He unbolted and unsawed a radiator from an old wrecked car, and then asked me if I would pay extra for the fans or if he should take them off. He said fifty dollars for the fans. I offered twenty, which he agreed. I said leave the fans on. So to payment. I asked him if he took credit card. No. Sadly, I was a few dollars short of cash. I went to an ATM, but my card was not working, even after a phone call to the bank. It was a Sunday so nothing was open. Strike one Bros K, Strike two Kafka, Strike three, radiator. A bad day. So I drove home without the radiator. I got some cash and went back for it, and for some bonnet struts. I told the wrecker I should have bargained him down on price for the struts, to which he just gave a booming laugh. With petrol and time cost, I probably should have just got a new radiator, but at least I got Budge and Finkelstein, if not Dostoevski. My son half-offered to install the radiator, but I will get the mechanic to do it, for fear of getting a half installation.

On Monday I went to the library. They did not have Bros K on the shelf, but I managed to order it by inter library loan, for collection next Monday. The librarian assured me it was not available, but I pointed out to him that he did not know how to spell Dostoyevsky, which has multiple translations, so that hurdle was overcome when he searched on Karamazov.

I also picked up an excellent book at the library which I have just read while sitting on the plane to San Francisco. It is called Dostoevsky in Ninety Minutes, by Paul Strathern. I also borrowed Fyodor Dostoevsky his Life and Work by Stanley Baldwin, which contains a seventy page précis of The Brothers Karamazov.

Baldwin gives some quotes which show why Bros K is among the very greatest novels. Dostoevsky himself is quoted as follows: “The whole idea of the work is to affirm the idea of universal disorder, to show that this disorder is all over the place, in society, in its affairs, in its governing principles… and in the decay of the idea of family. If passionate convictions still exist, then they are destructive ones (socialism). Moral ideas no longer exist, suddenly not a single one remains.” This rather bleak assessment of modern life may be specific to the Russia of his time, or perhaps it has wider implications. Another quote, from Joseph Frank, compares the book to King Lear.

Here is a nice comment from Strathern: “Dostoevsky’s great novels burst upon the European literary scene like a succession of thunderbolts. Over the next decades their raw psychology and passionate involvement had a galvanizing effect upon writers as disparate as Nietzsche and Kafka. The study of human psychology was entering a new phase, and Dostoevsky’s understanding of the darker and more extreme recesses of the human mind cast a light into areas that had seldom been illuminated with such force since the ancient Greek tragedies and Shakespeare.” (p99)

The four * main characters are the dissolute father Fyodor and his three sons, who each represent a main current in Russian life – Fyodor is Russia itself, Ivan is reason, Alyosha is faith, and Dmitri is emotion. The balance between these themes provides much of the creative drama of the book.

Reading the Strathern book makes me think we will be better off using thematic threads for Bros K rather than chapter threads. I see Chris has made chapter threads, which is great, and if people have thoughts that pertain to a particular chapter they should use those threads, but it may be possible that thematic threads can pick up ideas from the book that cross across multiple chapters.

I will soon set up threads as follows unless anyone complains.

• Brothers Karamazov as family portrait

• Who killed Fyodor Karamazov?

• Emotion, faith and reason in The Brothers Karamazov

• Existentialism in The Brothers Karamazov – condemned to freedom?

• The Grand Inquisitor - Atheism and morality in The Brothers Karamazov

Here is the full text of The Grand Inquisitor. It is the most famous passage in the book. If people read just this it will be worthwhile.

Strathern comments that Dostoevsky is most suitable for people aged around 18 to 21 who are experiencing existential doubt, and who can readily relate to the deep arguments and insights into human experience, before they are frozen into cynicism by adulthood. He says “Such literature is best appreciated in that state of bewildering emotional and philosophical intensity most frequently encountered in late teenage years… Readers may find themselves transported into a realm where passionate moral forces combine to enact a drama of desolate grandeur.’ The flight attendant saw me reading this and said ‘serious’.

Dostoevsky is really the greatest Russian novelist. He was amazingly prescient about the political currents that would lead to the Bolshevik Revolution. His early experience of being sent for years to Siberia as a political prisoner after a mock execution, and his youth in Petersburg where his father’s surgery catered to a poor neighbourhood, contributed to his depth of insight into the human condition. The debates in The Brothers Karamazov get to the heart of what it means to be human. These questions should have universal appeal. There is also a whodunit mystery, and a general portrait of Russian life in the small village of Skotoprigonyevsk (pen of beasts).

* ETA - sorry forgot the smelly bastard brother Smerdyakov

Re: First Thoughts on the Brothers Karamazov

Posted: Tue Feb 22, 2011 10:52 pm
by DWill
Robert, it's not schadenfreude, but I enjoyed reading about your tribulations automotive and literary. I picture you as much more theoretically concerned in daily life, so it was good to see you mucking around just as I do over here. I'd also like to say, although I don't know that I'll be re-reading this book along with you, that it's a great idea to set up thematic threads rather than the usual way of chapter sequence. I hope you enjoy San Francisco.

Re: First Thoughts on the Brothers Karamazov

Posted: Wed Feb 23, 2011 3:38 pm
by Dexter
I probably won't re-read the book right now, but I may read The Grand Inquisitor again.

Re: First Thoughts on the Brothers Karamazov

Posted: Wed Feb 23, 2011 4:06 pm
by President Camacho
Looking up: Monoglot.....busy....please wait....Knowledge Achieved.

Thanks for leading the discussion. I have a feeling I'll be getting a lot more out of the book.


"The whole idea of the work is to affirm the idea of universal disorder, to show that this disorder is all over the place, in society, in its affairs, in its governing principles… and in the decay of the idea of family."

That's what comes with real freedom, I guess. Humans are not robots and who is to say someone is a bad person if they don't hurt anyone but fail to conform to some kind of prescribed etiquette or social norm. I've noticed how touchy and self conscious the characters are... it seems typical in Russian literature. Also what seems typical is the love hate relationship of Russians for fellow Russians as well as Russians for Europeans; which they clearly separate themselves from but also admit to stealing culture from. When they do steal - and I use that word because it's just like that. It isn't "borrow" or "share" in any friendly term. They take these pieces of what they consider a higher culture and instead of it helping the country to grow or expand its horizons - they praise it to kingdom come and then condemn it. If it isn't Russian it's better and it's treason and therefore worthy of contempt - it's always extreme. It's very bipolar. There's a lot of sensitive personalities in Russian literature because everyone seems to be trying to lord over everyone else and trying not to get lorded over.

I don't know much about Russian history but it seems socialism was something very much a topic of discussion before it ever became an (un)reality. Russia was probably one of the last white cultures to have serfs and it's always been treated rather harshly by Europe. No one, it seems, has been harder on Russians than Russians, though. How can you love others if you don't love yourself... and not in an insane Bipolar way... just a calm and forgiving affection.

Alyosha is a borderline unbelievable character in my opinion - and Ivan borders on also being unbelievable. The peculiarities of people, their faults, make them real and closer to the reader. The real characters are the ones I like - not the fake ones. Real characters make a real connection with me and are vital in a tragedy. I've never known an Alyosha and I most likely never will. I don't even want to. As for an Ivan, he's only unbelievable because he hasn't really been opened up to me so far. He's just a name on a page.

Re: First Thoughts on the Brothers Karamazov

Posted: Thu Feb 24, 2011 3:04 pm
by Kevin
I have it! I'm going to read it! More later!

Re: First Thoughts on the Brothers Karamazov

Posted: Sun Mar 06, 2011 6:56 pm
by Kevin
I have finished the chapter introduing the second brother and am now getting to the runt of the litter. Wow! There are some authors that just speak to you... and D. is among those that do it for me. It's all believable to me (though that's not to say it has to be believable to all)... anyway, the act of reading a work of fiction requires something of the reader - unbelievability, or insanity. Wow! oops I said that already... sorry. I'm a fanboy here. I'll soon put it together and look at it with a more critical eye.

Re: First Thoughts on the Brothers Karamazov

Posted: Tue Mar 08, 2011 2:26 pm
by Robert Tulip
Kevin wrote: Wow! There are some authors that just speak to you... and D. is among those that do it for me.
Same here. Dostoyevsky is renowned as the greatest Russian novelist, equal to Tolstoy. He writes very clearly, beautifully and simply, making the plot easy to follow and the characterisation vivid. The book is hilarious at times, for example when the buffoon Fyodor tells the priests what he really thinks of them. There is also an extraordinary depth of perception. Dostoyevsky deftly uses his palette of words to paint portraits of the imagination. And the amazing cunning of composition of the whodunnit around Fyodor's tragic and gloomy death...

Other threads so far...

http://www.booktalk.org/brothers-karama ... 10354.html

http://www.booktalk.org/who-killed-fyod ... 10364.html

http://www.booktalk.org/brothers-karama ... 10324.html

http://www.booktalk.org/bros-karamazov- ... 10277.html

Re: First Thoughts on the Brothers Karamazov

Posted: Sun Mar 13, 2011 8:12 pm
by Kevin
I am only at Book 2 Chapter 6 Why is such a Man Alive? But I'd like to mention what is actually my thought regarding the book. I like religion when it has heart. It doesn't matter that I don't believe in it. I'm thinking now of Father Zosima when he tells the mother of the slain infant that she shouldn't be reconciled to the loss. I can't explain it, and that's the heart of religion, at least as far as this evangelical agnostic can see it.

Re: First Thoughts on the Brothers Karamazov

Posted: Sun Mar 13, 2011 8:56 pm
by President Camacho
All the ground kissing and the forgiving of everyone and everything for anything and.... geez give it a f*cking rest. Prostrate yourself on the ground and while crying you can't help kissing the earth over and over and over aaawww boohoo hooo for every sin ever... I loved the book before Zosimo started dying. Now it's a real chore to read.

Re: First Thoughts on the Brothers Karamazov

Posted: Mon Mar 14, 2011 4:56 am
by Robert Tulip
President Camacho wrote:All the ground kissing and the forgiving of everyone and everything for anything and.... geez give it a f*cking rest. Prostrate yourself on the ground and while crying you can't help kissing the earth over and over and over aaawww boohoo hooo for every sin ever... I loved the book before Zosimo started dying. Now it's a real chore to read.
Dostoyevsky is slightly mean at times. Crime and Punishment was written for a monthly serial, where he deliberately ended each chapter with an enticement to find out what would happen next. Brothers Karamazov is similar in having simultaneous parallel plots. Some focus on drama, others on ideas.

Book five ends with Ivan and Smerdy arguing, Smerdy explains he expects to have a fit, and gives Ivan the father Fyodor's secret knock, explaining that he has also given it to Dmitri, who threatened to kill both him and Fyodor. Then old Fyodor is pacing around his room like a horny goat waiting for his young hussy Grushka, who he thinks is the only one other than Smerdy who knows the knock. So the suspense is high.

And then, Book 6. Alyosha returns to his dying monk Zossimo, who tells his life story. Zossimo mentions that many people jeer and mock at monks. Some here may be guilty of that, but actually his story is amazing. Zossimo almost died in a duel when he challenged the fiance of his beloved. He tells a further story, how another man confessed to him that he murdered his beloved with a knife to the heart as she slept, but covered his tracks so expertly that a serf was charged, and when guilt overcame him years later no one would believe the truth. Zossimo also tells some beautiful pantheist poetry that is worth discussing further. I can tell that some readers may find this monk stuff less gripping than the high Karamazov drama, although it has a real depth of ideas, including the prophecy that when the peasants stop drowning themselves in alcohol they will drown themselves in blood.

Meanwhile the father paces back and forth in his room, waiting for the secret knock...