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Re: The Devil

Posted: Tue Oct 12, 2010 4:52 pm
by reader2121
Which ending do you think is most realistic?

I'm turning this over in my mind, and I'm thinking that Eugene's character wouldn't allow him to kill himself, that he would continue to blame Stepanida.

Re: The Devil

Posted: Tue Oct 12, 2010 6:55 pm
by geo
Suzanne wrote:
Tolstoy seems to be requiring the reader to make a moral choice when he gives us two endings. Which one do we pick? We must pick one. And we have to ask ourselves, why did we choose the the ending that decides Eugene's fate?

"Phosphates justify", hmmm? I have no idea what this means. I do know that if a writer repeats certain words again and again, it must mean something.
This was an intensely personal story for Tolstoy who later in life became very religious and ashamed of the excesses of his youth. I believe this story was intended as a parable of sorts, which is why he quotes scripture at the beginning. Tolstoy may have not meant to publish The Devil at all. It was published posthumously with both endings. He must have not been very satisfied with the first ending because he wrote an alternative ending for it. But in my opinion, the second ending isn't very satisfactory either.

I suggested this story because I have already read it and also because I think it's such an interesting story. (I even wrote my own alternative ending which works pretty well even if I can't come anywhere close to Tolstoy's style and tone.)

The alternate ending begins in Section XX right after the line—"Kill? Yes. There are only two ways out: to kill my wife or her. For it is impossible to live like this." But it seems to me in both of his endings, Tolstoy paints Eugene into a corner where the only possible way out is for someone to die: either Stepanida, Liza, or Eugene himself. But this seems to me something of a false trichotomy, if you will. Tolstoy seems over-committed to ending the tale with violent death. It seems unnecessarily melodramatic.

Re: The Devil

Posted: Wed Oct 13, 2010 6:16 pm
by reader2121
Yes, I agree when you write: "...was intended as a parable of sorts." It seems so straight forward, like a lesson a child might be taught. I wonder if many of Tolstoy's short stories are like this? I feel Gogol wrote differently, and less in a linear fashion.

Re: The Devil

Posted: Thu Oct 14, 2010 11:03 am
by reader2121
So...do we choose another short story? Have we all finished discussing The Devil???

Re: The Devil

Posted: Thu Oct 14, 2010 3:03 pm
by Suzanne
Although I did not like either of the endings, I think the story almost required the death of someone. The Bible passage that is quoted in the beginning speaks of cutting off the offending body part to save the soul from damnation. How do you cut out feelings of lust without causing a death? Of the two endings, I have chosen the first one to decide Eugene’s fate. He considered killing his wife and child at one point, this shows a major mental disorder. How do you cut out a mental disorder without causing death? The “devil” had to be killed, that would be Eugene, as Eugene saw it.

“The most mentally deranged people are certainly those who see in others indications of insanity they do not notice in themselves."

This quote lends itself very well with the second ending. The devil became Stepanida. The devil had to be killed, as Eugene saw it.
geo wrote:I even wrote my own alternative ending which works pretty well even if I can't come anywhere close to Tolstoy's style and tone
You didn't think this would go unnoticed or ignored did you? I would like to read your variation of the ending. :)
reader2121 wrote:So...do we choose another short story? Have we all finished discussing The Devil???
Reader, why don't you choose the next one.

Re: The Devil

Posted: Thu Oct 14, 2010 5:11 pm
by lindad_amato
Suzanne,
I agree. It is a sociopath who blames his lack of morality on someone else.

Re: The Devil

Posted: Thu Oct 14, 2010 5:36 pm
by reader2121
lindad_amato wrote:Suzanne,
I agree. It is a sociopath who blames his lack of morality on someone else.
But Eugene seemed like one who could not kill himself. He did not seem to be a strong-willed character, so, I felt it would be more like him to kill Stepanida.

Re: The Devil

Posted: Thu Oct 14, 2010 5:39 pm
by reader2121
I choose: Gogol's "The Nose."

Here is the text:

http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/The_Nose_(Gogol/Field)

I haven't read this yet, but I know it's a classic of Russian Literature.

Shall we begin this Monday?

Re: The Devil

Posted: Thu Oct 14, 2010 5:41 pm
by reader2121
The link isn't working...I don't know why?

You will find the complete story at Wikisource, or Google it. Sorry.

Re: The Devil

Posted: Thu Oct 14, 2010 9:30 pm
by geo
reader2121 wrote:
lindad_amato wrote:Suzanne,
I agree. It is a sociopath who blames his lack of morality on someone else.
But Eugene seemed like one who could not kill himself. He did not seem to be a strong-willed character, so, I felt it would be more like him to kill Stepanida.
Eugene is sexually obsessed with Stepanida and, yet, he cannot allow himself to carry on an affair with her, not only because of what it would do to Liza, but because as a landowner and man of high standing, he has to behave in a morally forthright manner. And he desperately wants to be a moral man, much like Tolstoy himself. It's this schism within himself that brings him to believe that Stepanida is a devil who has cast some spell on him. But when we look at how Tolstoy portrays Stepanida, she doesn't seem like a devil at all. She's just a free-spirited peasant girl who is willing to have sex with the landlord for money. I think Stepanida's family and friends even encourage her to do it.

It is interesting how Tolstoy portrays Liza in this story. She is extremely devoted to Eugene and also jealous, even before Eugene becomes obsessed with Stepanida.

"One thing that did not so much poison as threaten their happiness was her jealousy—a jealousy which she restrained and did not show, but which often made her suffer."

It's interesting that Tolstoy uses the same ending paragraph in both endings: "And, indeed, if Eugene was mentally ill, then all people are just as mentally ill, and most mentally ill are undoubtedly those who see signs of madness in others that they do not see in themselves."

There is one particularly memorable scene in this story when Eugene, as he goes on about the phosphates, sees Stepanida for the first time since his marriage.
He was displeased that he had noticed her, and yet he could not tear his eyes from her body, swayed by the strong, agile gait of her bare feet, from her arms, her shoulders, the beautiful folds of her blouse, and the red skirt tucked up high over her white calves.
And then, a couple of paragraphs later.
Liza, as always, met him with a beaming face. But that day she seemed to him especially pale, yellow, long, and weak.