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Ch. 1 - After GrowthPlease use this thread for discussing the 1st chapter of Deep Economy, which is entitled After Growth. If you would rather create your own threads feel free to do so. These chapter threads are only meant as a convenient structure for those members that appreciate or enjoy a structured book discussion.

Mckibben argues that our current economic system is destructively fixated on growth. He describes three fundamental challenges to the dominant paradigm that "more is better":1. Political: economic growth, at least as we now create it, is producing more insecurity/instability than progress.2. Physics/Chemistry: we do not have the energy needed to continue growing and neither do we have the space to store the resultant pollutants.3. Psychological: this unprecedented economic growth is not making us happier.Even with all of this stuff, we have relatively little to show for it; our planet can not sustain the process; and it really doesn't make us any happier after all. Ulitmately, McKibben argues, we can no longer reduce the essence of our economic decision making to: what course of action will bring me more? Thus the title, Deep Economy (taken from the environmentalist movement Deep Ecology ) as an attempt to ask beyond the surface of mere accumulation and delve deeper into the values and meaning that motivate everyday choices of production and consumption. Deep Economy is one way to envision an economic system that takes seriously the combination of human satisfaction, social durability and ecological sustainability.

Still waiting on my book. [have distinct feelings of bookal envy]But can't help think that a good companion volume to this discussion might be Alain de Botton's book Status Anxiety. In it, he tries to address the root causes of our need for more, our need to be bigger than we are...and ways of overcoming that need. "All beings are the owners of their deeds, the heirs to their deeds." Loricat's Book NookCelebrating the Absurd

I also saw this today and it interested me.Consumed: How Markets Corrupt Children, Infantilize Adults, and Swallow Citizens Whole I presented the idea a while back to have "TOPIC" discussions, as opposed to sinlge book discussions...this way we can bring different opinions in to the mix and people who might have other sources would feel more inclined to participate even if they do not like a particular book choice.Mr. P. I'm not saying it's usual for people to do those things but I(with the permission of God) have raised a dog from the dead and healed many people from all sorts of ailments. - Asana Boditharta (former booktalk troll)The one thing of which I am positive is that there is much of which to be negative - Mr. P.What is all this shit about Angels? Have you heard this? 3 out of 4 people believe in Angels. Are you F****** STUPID? Has everybody lost their mind? - George CarlinI came to kick ass and chew Bubble Gum...and I am all out of Bubble Gum - They Live, Roddy PiperEdited by: misterpessimistic  at: 4/9/07 3:43 pm

Mr. P -- I'm with you. I think this book discussion is going to be more about where the book leads us than the book itself.Ooo...as discussion leader, do I get to make these kinds of executive decisions?!? I say let's go ahead, and post to the chapters, but also to over-arching themes as they come up. Power. I love it! "All beings are the owners of their deeds, the heirs to their deeds." Loricat's Book NookCelebrating the Absurd

I suppose each participant gets to decide how they wish to participate. We have the chapter threads simply as a guideline, but it is completely acceptable to branch off and create side discussions about anything related to the book. Nobody should feel obligated to remain within the chapter thread structure.

loricat: Alain de Botton's book Status Anxiety. In it, he tries to address the root causes of our need for more, our need to be bigger than we are...and ways of overcoming that need.Making sense of the eco-damaging and self-destructive drive for more is certainly key to McKiben's book. McKibben asksQuote:On the list of important mistakes we've made as a species, this one seems pretty high up. A single minded focus on increasing wealth has driven the planet's ecological systems to the brink of failure, without making us happier. How did we screw up? (p.42)He does not answer by highlighting human greed, vanity, penchant for gluttony or disregard for the welfare of others...instead he says, "we kept doing something past the point where it worked. Since happiness increased with income in the past, we assumed it would do so in the future."Americans and Europeans at the time of Adam Smith had it pretty darned rough when procuring basic needs like food, shelter, clothing, literacy...the more of these the better was life; their absence equaled squalor, misery and poverty. McKibben says, "Is it any wonder, then, that we built a considerable velocity trying to escape the gravitational pull of that kind of poverty?"In other words, our economic drive for more is so potent because it has worked so well...now, it is out of control, travelling along a trajectory that spells ecological disaster, social anome and personal despair. It's like the person who rationalizes that if two prescribed pills will make him feel better, then four will make him feel great.Mr. P, I heard a discussion about Consumed: How Markets Corrupt Children, Infantilize Adults, and Swallow Citizens Whole on NPR yesterday morning. McKibben is not making an argument against markets, but he is challenging the dominant economic model that, as he says "worships markets as infallible". We need to "consciously limit their scope" and "downplay efficiency and pay attention to other goals." I am looking forward to his examination of regional, local economies that draw upon the farmer's market model. Still, I think the Consumed piece you mention could provide a strong support to the ways that McKibben describes our current drive for more as not increasing happiness. Edited by: Dissident Heart at: 4/10/07 12:58 pm

Chris: I suppose each participant gets to decide how they wish to participate. We have the chapter threads simply as a guideline, but it is completely acceptable to branch off and create side discussions about anything related to the book. Nobody should feel obligated to remain within the chapter thread structure.I think one only has to look at last quarter's discussion of The God Delusion to see that these conversations can't be pigeonholed anyway. I'm going to be ordering my book tomorrow so I'll probably be joining the discussion later, after I've received it and read it. I'm going to be away from my computer for a while, anyway. I'll have to catch up with this down the road.George "Godlessness is not about denying the existence of nonsensical beings. It is the starting point for living life without them."Godless in America by George A. Ricker

In this chapter McKibbin writes: "the men and women at the center of our economic and political lives have not treated climate change as anything more than another problem to be dealt with as we've dealt with problems in the past; certainly they don't perceive it as something that would call into question the doctrine of endless economic expansion" (24, emphasis mine). He cites liberals who "question not expansion but only the way that the new money is spread around," and how "the Democratic party and the union movement typically demand even faster growth." Essentially, wherever you stand along the economic divide, from CEO to labor, we're all equally "intellectually invested in the current system" (14).I wonder what kind of economic and political platform could emerge, within an industrialized, Western nation, which questions economic growth. Could a politician develop a successful campaign where she espouses decelerated economic growth? To me, it (a campaign based on decelerated economic growth, not necessarily the deceleration itself) sounds like a ludicrous idea. She wouldn't get anywhere. Which illustrates McKibbin's point that

irishrose: I wonder what kind of economic and political platform could emerge, within an industrialized, Western nation, which questions economic growth.If we were lucky, one that alligned its values and aspirations with the best of climate change science and the demands of ecological sustainability. irishrose: who sees McKibbin's premise as something that needs to be seriously considered and examined, and who thinks it's crazy to question the virtues of economic expansion?I think McKibben's thesis (more does not inevitably lead to better, and can actually lead to economic disparity, social anome, and ecological devastation) is certainly worthy of careful scrutiny and consideration. I think crazy involves the continued pursuit of a course of action, thinking that it will eventually produce different results. Encouraging the virtues of economic expansion (along US trajectories) in China and India is crazy. Actually, I think another title for Mckibben's book could have been (pace Dawkins) The Economic Expansion Delusion.irishrose: I don't know whether or not we are less happy now