Posted: Fri Jul 24, 2009 12:38 am
While you describe well the metaphorical even hypothetical hominind in us all I feel you miss adequately describing the men we actually are to any significance. Perhaps this is a vaneer, perhaps the vaneer is the only relevant part of who we are, as we have been raised to become.Robert Tulip wrote:You idealise a rational symbol while ignoring that most human activity, determined by genes and conventions, is not deliberate in the terms you specify.
Robert Tulip wrote:Unfortunately this definition of humanity puts many of the demented, the deluded and the disabled outside the boundary. It is better, as per de Waal, to start from empirical observation and build definitions which are in accord with reality.
I would disagree with anyone who would attempt development of broadly relevant forms of savant morality.
Pomp is one thing I suppose, the man as civilized and moral is used in a different sense than human. More metaphor perhaps? I suppose in the same way one would feel different towards the term: trained chimp, then one would toward: monkeys.Robert Tulip wrote:Sorry Grim, but there is a certain Niezschian pomposity to your comments here, especially your statement that people who cannot be understood are not human. I do not follow your reasoning regarding monkeys, as it seems obvious to me that study of the other primates is an important part of human self-understanding. People are monkeys’ biggest problem.
I'm not familiar with Derrida, perhaps you would like to include a quote or something...anything? I'm not sure if identifying with animals is de Waal's point, I thought that de Waal was creating the moral animal (human), identifiably sourced out of concepts normally relating to men observed in the behaviors of chimpanzees.Robert Tulip wrote:Your term ‘Significance’ here reminds me of Derrida and deconstruction. But your question ‘Why does man need to identify himself with animals?’ is very good, and is central to de Waal’s book. We share blood and earth with the other animals of our planet, having branched from the apes very recently in genetic terms. Understanding how our genes form our morals is an important contribution of science to philosophy, with many instructive lessons to be found in the study of the apes.
Well there is the genetic fallacy which denies the possibilty of moral genes. The discussion of morality is a purely philosophical matter, the philosophical questioning of morality, as such it would seem that even apparently objective evidence that supposes an emperical solidification of morals as physical are still just value statements and therefore subject to deconstruction and definition.Robert Tulip wrote:Sorry, I don’t understand this comment. It seems like your earlier statement that explaining part of morality by genetics is inherently fallacious. Would you care to explain the distinction between moral questioning and the philosophical questioning of morality?
But the evidence we are dealing with here is anything but objective and factual. The so called emperical observations are the ones supposing that they can determine the metaphysical origin of morality, that morality can be compared physically in an objective and factual manner using terms like emotion and empathy!! That pesky genetic bonds nags at my skepticisms, what kind of bond? to what relevance? what are we really seeing? what type of animals are we really? do we really exemplify the chimp? I don't feel that these questions were properly addressed by de Waal or in this forum expressio unius est exclusio alterius. Where the expression of similarity between man and ape is at the exclusion of difference.Robert Tulip wrote:Evidence is objective and factual. What we choose to do with that evidence is where values come into the picture. I think you are right though with your nice piece of Latin Mediaeval Semiotics. A commentary is at http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/semiotics-medieval/ . De Waal does indeed use the ape as a sign for man, suggesting we can understand human morality by seeing its inner core as displayed in our genetic bond with our simian cousins.
Please excuse grammatical, factual, and recitation mistakes!! My last post was a bad one in these respects.