Hi Frank, I will try to address your concerns.

First, regarding the study you presented - could you provide a proper reference for it so that I can read the entire study to gain perspective? Any diet can be tricky during pregnancy and many women, regardless of diet, need to go on supplements in order to prevent nutrient deficiencies.

I'm not sure where you got the information regarding soy products (you provided no reference), but trypsin inhibitors are destroyed during processing. That means they aren't active in soy milk, tofu, roasted soy nuts, etc. Yes, raw soybeans contain trypsin inhibitors which will inhibit trypsin (an enzyme that breaks down proteins into amino acids so your body can absorb them - it also activates other protein digesting enzymes). But I don't know too many people who snack on raw soy beans

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During my search I found several websites with pro vegan threads, many were discussing the stomach problems that many beginning vegans suffer. This seems to support the difficult to digest theory.

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The stomach problems are most likely due to increased fibre intake and/or a result of increasing beans/legumes in the diet (which as we all know causes gas). The problem here is more likely that their diet was so deficient in fibre (like many people in North America these days), that when they switched to a vegan diet and increased their fibre intake, they had difficulties digesting it at first. This would happen to anyone on a low fibre diet switching to a high fibre diet, regardless of whether meat is present or not. That's why it is recommended that you slowly increase your fibre intake over time. As for gas/discomfort caused by beans, that will also go away in time.

But is the problem due to soy? I doubt it. Most people seem to find soy milk easier to digest than cow's milk (no lactose).

As for the soy-cancer claim, that doesn't surprise me. First, there would need to be enough evidence to back this up in order to make such a claim. On another note, the dairy industry lobbied for years to prevent soy milk from being fortified with calcium and vitamin D (as they knew it would then become a major competitor with milk sales). I wouldn't be surprised if the dairy industry had something to do with this claim being denied. Oddly enough, the dairy industry often makes claims that aren't exactly well-supported by research.

Regardless, not all vegans consume soy. Yes, some consume way too much of it. Too much of anything in the diet is not good. Moderation is key.

I could quite easily post study after study after study showing all the health implications of the average diet. Obesity, cardiovascular disease, diabetes, etc etc. But anyone can easily find a study or two to back up their point of view and copy and paste it.. and just copying and pasting studies back and forth doesn't make for much of a discussion. However, if you are interested, I'm sure I could find plenty for you to look at.

I find it interesting that people come down so hard on vegan diets full of whole grains, fruits and vegetables, legumes, etc, when the current average diet consists of fast foods, saturated fats, sugar, with nary a vegetable to be seen. Yes, there is the potential for nutrient deficiencies on a vegan diet, but is the average omnivorous diet any better? Obesity (and the health implications involved) is quickly becoming an epidemic. The strain on the health care system is enormous. Per capita, do you suppose more vegetarians or omnivores are admitted to the hospital with life threatening diseases?

For more information on vegetarian diets (as well as the health beneifts), check out the position paper published by ADA (American Dietetic Association) and DC (Dietitians of Canada).

Fyvel

I will dig up my references for you, although the pregnancy article had the study group in the intro. Charles University, Pharmaceutical Faculty, Hradec Kralove.

Here is one article from BBC, news news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/4282257.stm

Another, chetday.com/vegandietdangers.htm

One more, soyonlineservice.co.nz/

I do not know if the information from these pages was sponsored by the dairy or meat industries, it is entirely possible. I hope you find this stuff useful.

I tried to eat vegan for several weeks and found it was not right for me. I could not maintain the vegan diet for several reasons,

1. I never felt satisfied, I was ravenous all of the time, I couldn't sleep I was so hungry, one day I ate 4 lbs of salad and vegetables, 20 minutes later was freaking out hungry again. I found that even a very small amount of lean meat stifled these hunger pains.

For the record a purely protein diet leaves me feeling the same way, one time I ate 12 pork chops in one sitting like this.

2. I travel a lot for work and sometimes end up in places without access to modern facilities, MRE's are the staple meal and vegan in these conditions means starving.

Any one living on the gulf cost is subject to these conditions.

3. I eat healthy but I also enjoy eating, meat just tastes great, why deny myself if I can remain healthy, and I do.

I do not eat fast food... yes I eat plenty of fruits and veggies; I stay away from soda and sugar, I exercise regularly and I eat meat.

As far as healthy, I have had one cold in the last 3 years and I did not get sick enough to miss work. My energy level is fine if not great and I heal very quickly. My one complaint is my hair is graying a little early, but I still have hair (on my head) and it grows rapidly.

My families ages for the last 3 generations has been in the high 90's except the smokers, some of them died as early as 61. None were vegans.

I don't smoke.

My beef with vegans (excuse the pun) is that many seem to flaunt their superior health, and want to destroy what the rest of us love... eating meat. I have sharp canine teeth for one reason, to tear into animal flesh, and I like doing it. I won't force vegans to eat meat but I do not want to be forced to stop either.

Fyvel, you do not strike me as one of the down with meat crowd so please don't take this as a personal attack. I simply do not like people on soap boxes telling me what is best for me. I have a fine handle on that all by myself.

Later

Frank, I do not take it as a personal attack, nor should you take my comments as one. I'm not sure if you read my previous posts in this thread, but I clearly stated what my views were on eating meat. Personally, for me, I find it repulsive. I'm not sure where your disgusts lie, so this example may not apply to you. But if you were to go to some place where it was commonplace to eat say, steamed grubs and monkey brains, and you chose not to eat those items out of disgust: would you feel yourself to be deprived? (If those things don't disgust you, just replace them with something that would).

My remarks towards the average diet were not meant as an attack against anyone's personal diet. Obviously you can eat meat and be healthy (as I have stated in an earlier post). My remarks were in response to your claims that a vegan diet is not healthy. I've done the research - I know that my diet is healthy and not lacking in any essential nutrients.

The ethics behind my decision does not come from a belief that we should take nothing from animals (for example, if I had my own chickens, I personally see nothing wrong with eating their eggs). Rather, I see problems with agriculture as it is today. Hens in battery cages, cows with mastitis producing undesirable male claves that are then sent to become veal, etc etc. Animals are not seen as living creatures who are providing us with a resource. Rather, they are a product to be bought and sold, and used in the way that will make the most profit. I don't want to be a part of that, so I remove myself from it as much as possible. It is a personal decision. I don't think I've been forcing that on anyone here. I'm simply explaining why I feel the way I do. I don't expect others to follow suit.

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I will dig up my references for you, although the pregnancy article had the study group in the intro. Charles University, Pharmaceutical Faculty, Hradec Kralove.

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The description was short and not very specific. With my experience, short summaries of articles such as that you posted can be very misleading. There are more factors that would come into play than just pregnant vegetarians. What kind of vegetarian? Where do they live? What is their economic situation? What is their level of education? This is not to say your reference is no good - just that in the past I have found it enlightening to read the entire article to get a better grasp of what is really going on in the study.

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Here is one article from BBC, news news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/4282257.stm

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There is so much misinformation and bad science referenced in that article that I don't even know where to start.

I've seen that study quoted in the article. In fact, I was reading it last night and pointing out all the flaws in it. These children were suffering from PEM (protein energy malnutrition), so of course a source of protein is going to help! They have three groups: meat, milk, and plant based. Basically what they did is add meat, milk, or oil to a basic stew of plant based items. So with the meat group, they're adding protein and fat. To the milk group, they're adding protein and fat. To the plant group - they're just adding fat (oil). Why? Why not use a plant based protein source?

To make matters even worse, the study was funded by National Cattlemen's Beef Association. And it's this study that's child abuse.. not a healthy vegan diet...

I don't have the time to go into all the problems with that study - but this site does a nice job.

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Another, chetday.com/vegandietdangers.htm

One more, soyonlineservice.co.nz/

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It's the internet. You can find people on the internet who believe the earth is flat. I'm not seeing references on either of these pages - so for as far as I know, they could just be making this stuff up.

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I tried to eat vegan for several weeks and found it was not right for me. I could not maintain the vegan diet for several reasons,

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1. I never felt satisfied, I was ravenous all of the time, I couldn't sleep I was so hungry, one day I ate 4 lbs of salad and vegetables, 20 minutes later was freaking out hungry again. I found that even a very small amount of lean meat stifled these hunger pains.

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I don't know what your diet consisted of when you were vegan, but 4 lbs of salad doesn't even come close to being a balanced vegan diet. You were starving after eating salad because it doesn't have protein or fat - two nutrients that cause satiety. Had you instead tried a plate of beans and rice with some veggies you may have been more satisfied.

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2. I travel a lot for work and sometimes end up in places without access to modern facilities, MRE's are the staple meal and vegan in these conditions means starving.

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I seem to remember reading somewhere that some MRE's are vegan. Not sure about that though.

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3. I eat healthy but I also enjoy eating, meat just tastes great, why deny myself if I can remain healthy, and I do.

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So just out of curiosity: why give up meat in the first place?

So, will you agree that your inability to adhere to the vegan diet was not a failing of the diet itself but rather personal issues that you had with the diet?

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My beef with vegans (excuse the pun) is that many seem to flaunt their superior health, and want to destroy what the rest of us love... eating meat.

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It works both ways. As a vegetarian, I've grown used to dealing with omnivores who are convinced my diet is grossly inadequate, and try to convince me to give it up. That's life, that's people, I've learned to deal with it.

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I have sharp canine teeth for one reason, to tear into animal flesh, and I like doing it.

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Gorillas have huge canine teeth - much larger than those of humans. Yet their diet is predominantly vegetarian - with little to no meat. Morphology can be deceiving.

[Fyvel: I clearly stated what my views were on eating meat.]

I did see that, that's why I posted the "this is not a personal attack" blurb.

[Fyvel: I see problems with agriculture as it is today.]

So do I that's why I get my food from the health food store, other reasons include the choices that are not normally available like ostrich steaks.

[Fyvel: To make matters even worse, the study was funded by National Cattlemen's Beef Association.]

I missed this, where did they hide it?

Also just one point, I know a few vegans my friends sister is one as well as her husband and many of their friends. They eat vegan because of the animal suffering as well, but they are also activists, which I suspect other vegans may be as well. If these activists are funding the studies is it possible that their results may be biased as well?

I have noticed something about the same group I mentioned earlier and it may be because they are not doing the vegan thing correctly, but they all seem weak, pale, and sickly, I have seen vegans that are not like this, so my question is what could they be doing wrong?

[Fyvel: It's the internet. You can find people on the internet who believe the earth is flat.]

What! the earths not flat?!

Just kidding I find flat eaters just plain hilarious.

[Fyvel: I'm not seeing references on either of these pages - so for as far as I know, they could just be making this stuff up.]

Could be, I have seen this on sites before but I try to always look at both sides of an issue, and those are just a couple of sites I came across.

[Fyvel: I don't know what your diet consisted of when you were vegan, but 4 lbs of salad doesn't even come close to being a balanced vegan diet.]

Lets see that was more than 10 years ago but I think that day I had something like whole wheat toast, peanut butter and grapefruit or some other fruit for breakfast. For lunch I had a brown rice and barley mix with red beans and a salad including peppers, olives, celery lettuce spinach, and yea, tofu, which got slimy in the salad and reminded me of slugs in my mouth.
For dinner we had a veggie chili with more beans, crumbled tofu, and tomatoes with another salad and wheat bread on the side. Than later that night maybe an hour after dinner I downed the rest of the salad, a bowl about the size of say a small trash can.

My family got the recipes from a vegetarian cook book given to us by my mom's friend, a vegan one of the healthy ones.

[Fyvel: I seem to remember reading somewhere that some MRE's are vegan. Not sure about that though.]

Yes they are available, but they must be specially requested and since we generally get our MRE's from the army reservists we do not get to do requests, neither do the people getting these meals who got stuck in the disaster area.

[Fyvel: So just out of curiosity: why give up meat in the first place?]

At the time I was having rollercoaster weight issues, nothing to serious but it was noticeable to me, and I do not love the idea of killing for food either, I had heard that there was a way to subsist without meat and in the modern age I figured why not try it.

[Fyvel: So, will you agree that your inability to adhere to the vegan diet was not a failing of the diet itself but rather personal issues that you had with the diet?]

I don't know, if by adhering to the diet means walking around starving all of the time than it's the diets fault, but I also have these other lifestyle situations that make a strict vegan diet impossible.

[Fyvel: It works both ways. As a vegetarian, I've grown used to dealing with omnivores who are convinced my diet is grossly inadequate, and try to convince me to give it up. That's life, that's people; I've learned to deal with it.]

Don't I know it, I say if its right for you great, more power to you!

But it is not right for me, like you said there are ways to eat healthy without going vegan.

I simply do not like being labeled because of the choice I make to eat meat, I suspect you have received more hassle than I have for the opposite reason, so you should understand my stance.

I think like most things each of us has different requirements, my wife for example can subsist off of about 1/10 of what I eat in a day and she eats less meat than I do, she is easily sated by most foods and does not require the balance of meat and vegetables that I do in each meal.

My point which you made at the beginning of the thread is that Vegan is not the only way, and I think that it is to often preached to the common person as easy and satisfying when this is not always the case.

Later

Frank, from what I have read so far about your own diet, it is certainly not the "average North American diet" that I have been referring to.

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I missed this, where did they hide it?

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If you go to the original article and scroll down to footnote number 2, you will notice that it says "The project was partially supported by the National Cattleman's Beef Association".

This sort of thing is not uncommon. Much of the research I've seen claiming the benefits of milk or beef is funded by the dairy and/or beef industries. I have also received pamphlets, etc from beef, dairy, and grain industries. Everyone has an agenda. To be fair, someone has to pay for these studies, and of course it makes sense that those who stand a chance to make a buck out of it would do so. I just wonder if any research that does not cast a good light on their product ever sees the light of day (I have yet to see it if it does).

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If these activists are funding the studies is it possible that their results may be biased as well?

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You betcha! That's why it is always best to keep an open mind, and be diligent about where you get your information.

(That is part of why I don't care much for PETA: they tend to be biased and extreme and cast a negative light on people who share their views).

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I have noticed something about the same group I mentioned earlier and it may be because they are not doing the vegan thing correctly, but they all seem weak, pale, and sickly, I have seen vegans that are not like this, so my question is what could they be doing wrong?

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I have yet to meet a vegan who is 'weak, pale, and sickly'. However, some people will use a vegan or vegetarian diet as a way to cover up an eating disorder. In that case, they would be weak and pale.

It's also possible that they just don't know what they're doing. They hear about veganism and like the idea of it, but don't go to any lengths to find new foods to replace the foods they had been eating with animal products and subsist on mostly processed foods and junk foods. Veganism does require you to expand your horizons and find new foods to eat that we are not traditionally used to eating.

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Lets see that was more than 10 years ago but I think that day I had something like whole wheat toast, peanut butter and grapefruit or some other fruit for breakfast. For lunch I had a brown rice and barley mix with red beans and a salad including peppers, olives, celery lettuce spinach, and yea, tofu, which got slimy in the salad and reminded me of slugs in my mouth.
For dinner we had a veggie chili with more beans, crumbled tofu, and tomatoes with another salad and wheat bread on the side. Than later that night maybe an hour after dinner I downed the rest of the salad, a bowl about the size of say a small trash can.

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Sounds good! Well, except for the tofu. For years I didn't like tofu and discovered the secret to tofu is in freezing it before hand (I had some very yummy marinated tofu last night).

I personally do not eat in such distinct meals like that (but I live by myself and have a strange schedule). I tend to eat 4-5 'meals' during the day. I don't eat any more than I would if I had it in three meals, I just spread it out more.

One thing I notice about the foods you ate that day is that there doesn't seem to be much fat there. I find that chopping an avocado up in a salad really helps with satiey (and taste!). Lots of good healthy fats in avocado

At any rate, I know that this diet is not for everyone. I am quite happy with it - I feel better (mentally and physically), I love finding new recipes, and I love the challenge of finding substitutes for eggs in my baking.

Like I said before, I don't think the presence of meat in the diet really affects how healthy your diet is, as long as it is in moderate amounts and is a healthy type of meat (i.e. lean steak vs double bacon cheeseburger). I personally think that adding fruits and veggies and whole grains to a diet will have more health effects than cutting meat out of a diet.

[Fyvel: Frank, from what I have read so far about your own diet, it is certainly not the "average North American diet" that I have been referring to.]

No I don't suppose it is, I take my health seriously and what I put into my body has a lot to do with how I feel.

[Fyvel: That is part of why I don't care much for PETA: they tend to be biased and extreme and cast a negative light on people who share their views]

PETA ug, pleeese don't get me started!

[Fyvel: One thing I notice about the foods you ate that day is that there doesn't seem to be much fat there. I find that chopping an avocado up in a salad really helps with satiety (and taste!). Lots of good healthy fats in avocado.]

I'll have to try that I haven't had avocado in a while.

[Fyvel: I personally think that adding fruits and veggies and whole grains to a diet will have more health effects than cutting meat out of a diet.]

I completely agree with you here, this is very much what I did to improve my personal diet and it has helped me loose weight and stop the rollercoaster cycle. Not long after that I started working out more and I feel better overall.

One of the things I saw relatively recently was super size me, this documentary really helped me make the final step away from fast food.

Later

Wandered in here by way of looking for a review of Vegasaur to help edit this http://ancestryfoundation.org/ The raw footage is up, but it's the first conference dealing with nutrition using evolution science. There are some 40 talks, one dealing specifically with how to talk to a vegetarian. I'm in the process of marrying the slides to the talks(something Vegasaur does), but the truly motivated can do it themselves.

Have fun,
Gavin

Very true, not all the nutrients that our body needed can be supplied by vegetable alone. Check out the food pyramid and you’ll see there that animal meat play a significant role. Learn how to balance your meal.