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Unraveling the supernatural

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lady of shallot

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Re: Unraveling the supernatural.

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Sorry, I like thinking about chipmunks.
Why, Interbane? Not that I blame you. I like chipmunks although most people consider them pests. We call ours "Charlie" and like to watch him (them) doing all their errands. I like chipmunks better than squirrels, although they do are entertaining.

Here's a pic of our squirrel proof bird feeder. We spend an inordinate amount of time looking at things in the hardware store and discussing this problem!
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Interbane

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Re: Unraveling the supernatural.

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Science limits its explanations for phenomena to natural explanations, a process known as methodological naturalism, and cannot consider supernatural explanations, as they cannot be investigated empirically.
Science doesn't have such a limit. Where did you read this? Science can and does investigate everything it possibly can. People keep saying there is a "supernatural" realm, but at least the sane ones realize that what they're actually referring to is the realm of human conjured fantasy. If you want to limit yourself to what's natural, go take a walk in the woods. If you want the supernatural, browse the fantasy section at your local bookstore. There is no better explanation for 'natural' versus 'supernatural'.
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Re: Unraveling the supernatural.

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Conversations with mystics.

In the absence of God, I found Man.
-Guillermo Del Torro

Are you pushing your own short comings on us and safely hating them from a distance?

Is this the virtue of faith? To never change your mind: especially when you should?

Young Earth Creationists take offense at the idea that we have a common heritage with other animals. Why is being the descendant of a mud golem any better?
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Re: Unraveling the supernatural.

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That's pretty cool actually. I love the jazz session throughout. The bit about idealist philosophy beat by stepping out of the window was pretty funny. I've heard a similiar argument presented as a bunch of idealist philospher's jumping out of an airplane with no parachute.
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johnson1010
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Re: Unraveling the supernatural.

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The power of language.

And God said, "Let there be light."

Our myths are full of cheracters using the power of magic words to create or to affect the natural world.

Golem incantations to abra cadabra all come back to the conciete that language is powerful and foundational. That knowing just the right words can give us the power to alter reality in a fundamental way.

Language is powerful. It is the basis of our ascention from mud-grubbing to jet-setting. But the sole power of language is the construction and transfer of ideas from one mind to another.
In the absence of God, I found Man.
-Guillermo Del Torro

Are you pushing your own short comings on us and safely hating them from a distance?

Is this the virtue of faith? To never change your mind: especially when you should?

Young Earth Creationists take offense at the idea that we have a common heritage with other animals. Why is being the descendant of a mud golem any better?
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johnson1010
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Re: Unraveling the supernatural.

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Many people will freely assert what they KNOW to be true about the realm of the supernatural.

I have heard heaven described as a place where everyone gets their own mansion to live in. No need to worry about paying for it. It's your forever. I have heard that there would be no starvation or disease. I have heard that hell is full of fire, or ice, or other physical torment. And always, heaven is "Up above" and hell is below.

There is no way for anyone to know anything at all about a realm that is supernatural. Bald-faced assertions of knowledge where none could be had is outright dishonesty. But in every case where someone describes what they KNOW to be true about what happens after death, they inevitably describe those events as though they are happening to our earthly bodies.

If it is just our spirits which move on to heaven or hell, then what possible use could there be for a mansion? What good are riches, in a place with no economy? Streets paved with gold implies immediately that glittering metals are still coveted in the afterlife. That means that there will inevitably be a wealth gap, inequity, and jealousy.

Why does heaven contain all the sinful pleasures we must abstain from in order to REACH heaven? Why are there 72 virgins for muslims? Why these references to wealth and hedonistic pleasures?

The supernatural realms are all described as things that are not supernatural. The existence of fire and ice in any such place means it can only be exactly like the rest of the universe. Fire is an electromagnetic effect. Nothing can burn without atoms and the rules of chemistry. Nor could anything freeze. Are we meant to be able to see in heaven? That would mean we have eyes. Sight is a direct consequence of the way the universe works. It is not a pre-existing magical thing. It is a product of evolution which only works because of the regularity of the natural world. Our eyes capitolize on the way matter reacts in nature. Our eyes capture light. Photons. Photons are packets of quantum energy exchanged by electrons. Eyes are useless without these underlying structures of nature.

Even the basic concept of heaven being "up" and hell being "down" underlines the pure fantasy of these notions.

If heaven is literally "up", and hell is literally "down", then that means that the supernatural realm is effectively a planet of some kind. Up and down only have meaning in relationship to a massive body with a gravitational field. "up" means away from the center of mass, "Down" means toward the center of mass. That means that heaven and hell are subject to gravity, and also that they are probably just like the other planets we can see. Subject to the same natural laws that everything else is, and also that they would be readily observable, and not supernatural in any way. If they can be effected by gravity, then they are part of the universe, and NOT beyond study, disection, discussion, and understanding.

If the words up and down are not meant to be taken literally as spactial description (they are used extensively in just that way, however) but as some indication of the heirachy of their value, then we are again left with the fact that these are plainly products of human imagination.

Up and down cannot escape their roots in planetary origin. A king might have been described as being on-high, and very often they sat on podiums or thrones that elevated them, literally, so that they could look down on the commoners. That's because of the psychological, intimidating, and strategic advantages provided by an elevated position which are all intrinsically derived from the ACTUAL elevation in relation to the center of mass.

These are concepts with definite roots in human psychology and everyday experience.
In the absence of God, I found Man.
-Guillermo Del Torro

Are you pushing your own short comings on us and safely hating them from a distance?

Is this the virtue of faith? To never change your mind: especially when you should?

Young Earth Creationists take offense at the idea that we have a common heritage with other animals. Why is being the descendant of a mud golem any better?
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Re: Unraveling the supernatural.

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You do realize that the in my fathers house are many mansions reference is but one more reference to the sky right? People have taken this simple reference to there being houses in the abode of the heavens (houses of the zodiac up in the sky/heaven) and twisted it around as if it's in reference to a transcendent supernature realm somewhere out of sight where many physical mansions are being made for them to go and inhabit after they die. You really nailed it with pointing out how completely it is for people to speak of realm which is supposed to transcend this one and yet has all of the same material properties like precious metals and such. That's pure f&@king nonsense plain and simple. And when putting these old astral myths into place it's equally ridiculious to think that a soul goes up into the local heavens and houses of the zodiac too, which is what is really being asserted in the myth. They had elaborate esoteric lore about the souls journey down to the earth through the heavenly spheres and then it's journey back up again. This eventually mutated into further confusion and soon people were taking these astral myths about the local visible heaven above in the sky to mean this or that about some supernatural realm beyond the visible stretch of sky. The whole thing boils down to one guess about what might happen after death stacked on top of more and more human guess work and pretty soon we find religious doctrine present as absolutely true and infallible when the whole god dam sky scraper of guess work is stemming from assumptions about an uncertain problem for the mind right from the get go. I think knowing the root foundation is critical to any hope of advancement. We just don't know. And everyone should be admitting to themselves and everyone else that death is completely uncertain. And then if some one wants hope for the possiblilty that consciousness may continue and believe that it could, no harm done as long as they're honest enough with themself and others to present it as a hope, a wish, a remote possiblity, or anything other that an absolute and infallible fact of certainty....
Last edited by tat tvam asi on Sat Apr 16, 2011 12:23 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Unraveling the supernatural.

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The heavenly mansion idea i heard from evangelicals who were talking about there being "mansions above" which no builder on earth could conceive of. And that there was no worry of being moved out of it, or having to pay for it. That it would be yours forever.

Him having his reference wrong does not surprise me, but it doesn't keep him and thousands like him of asserting his wild speculation as undenaible fact.

Supplemental Update.Example of belief in real physical mansions can be found right here with our own members:

http://www.booktalk.org/the-resurrectio ... 10630.html






I actually think that we do know what happens after death. We see it all the time. The only reason there is any debate on the issue, is that we don't like the answer that is right there in front of us all.

All indications are that when we die, we cease to be. We shut down, break down, get re-absorbed, never to be seen or heard from again. We don't like that, (of course not), so we have just rejected what all the evidence tells us (not the first time) and just insisted that something else happens afterwords.

I understand the impulse to reject that final end, but i refuse to lie to myself about the facts just because i don't like what they tell me.

One of my earlier posts about the soul addresses this a bit more in depth.
In the absence of God, I found Man.
-Guillermo Del Torro

Are you pushing your own short comings on us and safely hating them from a distance?

Is this the virtue of faith? To never change your mind: especially when you should?

Young Earth Creationists take offense at the idea that we have a common heritage with other animals. Why is being the descendant of a mud golem any better?
lady of shallot

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Re: Unraveling the supernatural.

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in my fathers house are many mansions
I have always heard this quote as very comforting and very beautiful. I never thought it meant an actual physical "mansion" I have always understood it to mean something symbolic. However I am an atheist and non-experienced in Evangelicalism.
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Re: Unraveling the supernatural.

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I just think that it's better to take an uncertain position on an after life. The evidence is actually several fold concerning consciousness. We see things die and life go out of them for sure, but then again we also see people die and revive with elaborate accounts of conscious continuing uninterrupted throughout the whole ordeal.

One strange case was the Russian who was in the morgue for several days and then came to when they cut into him for autopsy. He claimed to be conscious the entire time. My grandfather died several times over heart attack related issues and had a quadruple bypass surgery in the process. He had long winded tales of seeing a bright light, which, coincidentally told him "I am" when my grandfather asked this light who it was. The light asked him if he'd like to stay or go back to his body as the story goes. He told me that there was no pain in the presence of this light that says "I am", so he answered that he prefered to stay with the light. Apparently that wasn't the answer that the light was hoping for and so he was told no, you have to go back because your family needs you a while longer. And bam, he was back in his body in the hospital. He remembered sitting up and vomiting which hit a male CNA who was by his bed side and the CNA slapped his face causing him to choke on his own vomit and then he blacked out. When he came to the CNA wasn't there and he couldn't communicate vocally what had happened to those who were there.

When he was released home he started telling me about his perception of the whole ordeal of dieing and the meeting with the light. I listened but I was already an atheist at that point in life and didn't believe any of it. The light thing is obviously coming from the fact that he grew with the story of Moses and the burning bush and the great "I am that I am" myth. If he were raised Hindu or Buddhist he would have had some other experience during the death or near death time periods. But the odd thing is that when I finally came to him and agreed to listen to his bible study on Yahweh and the sacred names of God that he kept pressing to tell me, he actually died in his sleep the very next Friday night before he had the chance to finish what he started the previous weekend. He believed that he had to come back from the bypass surgery because he hadn't passed on his bible study about the sacred name of Yahweh to me, his oldest grandson. And it actually took several years before I decided to let him tell me what he wanted to say about the tetragrammaton. And so when my grandfather finally did pass on his bible study I guess he felt a peace of mind and just let go on his own terms and felt that it was time to move on. He didn't fear death any more after his ordeal at the hospital. He seemed like he was ready to go whenever, but felt like he had to stick around a while longer to pass on this information about Yahweh. I lived about two hours away and I was planning on going down that Friday night but stayed home instead. I woke up to my mom knocking on my door crying and she told me that Pop died.

Out of respect for his intentions I went through his personal library and followed a paper trail of info about Yahweh. And thus began an investigation into the sacred names of God which kept unfolding and unfolding until I finally understood that Yahweh was a pagan pantheon deity originally and how the old Canaanite deity reflected older myths of Isis as the great "I was, am, will be". I began to understand that these myths are addressed to mere existence itself and drop clues along the way that make it possible to realized this. The big lesson turned out to be nothing more than finally putting it all together and realizing that the Gods of mythology are oriented towards pointing at mere existence as this all encompassing totality that has no fixed beginning or end and is the source, end, and supporting ground of life and being.

I have no idea whether or not my grandfather was truly brain dead or not during the several flat lines he went through. He thought he was conscious throughout. And I have to wonder whether or not existence is itself some type of primal consciousness from which we emerge and to which we all return. I'm agnostic on the whole thing for several reasons. It's possible that his experience was linked into a return to the primal consciousness of existence itself, which he perceived as this "light" as in the biblical myths, but then again he could have just as easily made the whole thing up as some ploy to get me back into the church again and dedicate my life to Yahweh or something. But it actually served to make me all the more atheist and agnostic in the end because I gained a detailed understanding about mythology and how the biblical names of God originally were all reference to different gods and then later masked and disguised with terms like "lord" and "lord of hosts" to try and hide that fact. While it's clear that the myths are non literal it's still not so clear to me as to whether or not existence itself comes with a certain intention geared towards the emergence of life in suitable environments throughout space as a way for the universe to look around at itself and investigate it's depths. If so, this primal urge, or consciousness, would not see anything until it evolves eyes to see. That's where life comes in. Perhaps there is a constant stream of coming and going to and from this primal energy consciousness of sorts and that's why so many traditions and people swear by these experiences. I just don't know until I actually get there myself. At which point I will either experience a transition of consciousness or completely black out into no consciousness whatsoever. And I fear neither of the two outcomes. Like you I tend to lean towards the latter of the two because it's the most logical when you really think about it. But I just can't shut the door on option one. I'm stuck in an agnostic standstill for the time being...

:mrgreen:
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