Universal Common Ancestor/The experiment

MadArchitect

Asana Bodhitharta: I wouldn't buy a copy of such a book when there is a terribly large amount of such information on the internet for free.

The problem with using the internet as a primary source of information is that so much of the information available on the internet is of dubious quality. There aren't the same pressures from a structured peer review, for instance, and the biases of a particular online source may be covert, masking their potential reasons for distorting information or not providing information that could hurt their own bias.

I wouldn't mind taking part in a book discussion if I am invited to do so but unless the book is talking about some new idea that is not already known i could just as well enter that conversation with all the current knowledge I already have.

The problem with that is, that if we all enter into a discussion with knowledge that we've gained from our own sources, unless those sources overlap a significant majority of the time, then we're likely to quibble with one another over differences in our background knowledge, with no real way of knowing whose reading is more in depth or reliable. The real benefit to a discussion like the one we're having in the "Evolution Vs. Creationism" forum is that, despite the fact that the book provides us with information that most of us have run across at one time or another, it allows us to talk about the same set of facts and figures. That allows us to have a coherent conversation, and when problems arise, we're able to point back to a book that we've all read.

Discussing the topic based only on bits and pieces of information gleaned from the internet is likely to leave us in chaos. That's not a discussion -- it's a rabble.

At any rate, I'm not going to bother reiterating the invitation after this. I've given what I think are very solid reasons for entering the discussion on the grounds that we've all agreed upon. If you're not interested in that sort of discussion, so be it. Just don't expect the people on this forum to depart from a good way of going about things just to meet your claims on the terms you've dictated.

Asana Bodhitharta

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I understand very well actually, scientists had predicted these forms of fossils using the common ancestry hypothesis.

Lo and behold they were there.

Add to this the very powerful DNA and genome research, the predictions and successes that they have had in these arenas.

There what was? Do you know how many predictions there are for every sort of thing. Nostradomus predicted 9/11 according to his supporters can you prove he didn't? If someone predicts something satisfactory for you it should be a specific prediction. What does DNA and genome research have to do with fishapod? Nothing! and you know it.

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Well according to your above logic god would have had to create life and then destroy it and then create new life and he would have had to do this every several million years or so, what a waste.

You assume that this animal is extinct? How would you know that?

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There is no theory of god because you can’t physically test an imaginary character.

There is no theory of God because God is not a theory. God is a fact.

When I say I realized God I mean just that. Chris thinks that me saying that is some sort of error just because he has not realized whatever he needs to realize and he hasn't realized whether he is a Freethinker or an Atheist. I have realized God and I do know what the ToE is and it is garbage science. I love real science and if it was a real science I would be all for it but it is a pseudo science with no valid evidence. Some of the evidence has even been falsified.

Asana Bodhitharta

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At any rate, I'm not going to bother reiterating the invitation after this. I've given what I think are very solid reasons for entering the discussion on the grounds that we've all agreed upon.

I told you I don't mind entering the discussion but I dont have time to read an entire book just to talk about something I have a firm grasp on even without the internet. I just use the internet to get the latest information available from reliable sources.

But I do understand that is the point of your book discussion so I guess I wouldn't be welcome to participate in that forum but thanks anyway. If I do get the time I will go buy the book but I don't imagine that happening.

Frank 013

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That was just ignorant; of course you must know that I was saying that looking at a specific animal fossil and saying it correlates to another animal.

Wow Asana this coming from you is incredible, you, (the person who literally has not made a single verifiable claim in your history of being on booktalk) are calling someone else ignorant.

I think I have found proof that god does NOT exist, it is Asana. Considering how often Asana is wrong (it must be close to 100% of the time.) his claim of god must also certainly be wrong.

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What does DNA and genome research have to do with fishapod? Nothing! and you know it.

These studies have everything to do with one another, the geological record, comparative anatomy, DNA and genome research, together paint the overall picture of evolution.

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You assume that this animal is extinct? How would you know that?

I’ll tell you what, you dig one up and we can talk. Besides there are literally thousands of other species that would fall into the “god destroyed” category; where did the dinosaurs go? Are they just hiding?

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There is no theory of God because God is not a theory. God is a fact.

Again Ill ask, care to back that statement up with some tangible evidence?

And your normal intelligence/overall existence “evidence” does not count because it has already been explained better by science.

Here is your problem;

Evolution paints its picture with verifiable facts, observable evidence, and testable predictions. Scientists follow the rules of rationality to come to their conclusions and they look for all evidence, even that which would disprove their theory, in fact falsification is an important part of the scientific method.

The god picture is painted with imagination and ignorance. It begins with preconceived notions and there are no rules when seeking evidence. Furthermore this god picture is not open to debate any evidence that goes against it is thrown out.

You are seriously guilty of the second line of thought.

Later

MadArchitect

Asana Bodhitharta: But I do understand that is the point of your book discussion so I guess I wouldn't be welcome to participate in that forum but thanks anyway.

For the time being, at least, it's also kind of the point of the whole site...

Asana Bodhitharta

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I think I have found proof that god does NOT exist, it is Asana. Considering how often Asana is wrong (it must be close to 100% of the time.) his claim of god must also certainly be wrong.

First of all I couldn't be wrong discussing a theory, therefore I could not be 100% wrong.

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Wow Asana this coming from you is incredible, you, (the person who literally has not made a single verifiable claim in your history of being on booktalk) are calling someone else ignorant.

The second point I would like to make is when I said the statement was ignorant it was meant in the sense of Lacking knowledge. That is why I said "of course you must know" but if irishrosem did not know what I meant then yes of course it was an ignorant statement.

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These studies have everything to do with one another, the geological record, comparative anatomy, DNA and genome research, together paint the overall picture of evolution.

DNA and Evolution are very far apart in fact it will be DNA and genome research that will most likely end the ToE. ToE had a much stroger grip on society years ago.

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I’ll tell you what, you dig one up and we can talk. Besides there are literally thousands of other species that would fall into the “god destroyed” category; where did the dinosaurs go? Are they just hiding?

How could God destroy anything if you say He(HU) doesn't exist?

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Again Ill ask, care to back that statement up with some tangible evidence?

And your normal intelligence/overall existence “evidence” does not count because it has already been explained better by science.

It does count and Abiogenesis is not a better explanation for the creation of life since biogenesis happens every single second and there are no cases of Abiogenesis.

Which has better evidence Frank 013.

Life creates Life or Dead Matter creates Life?
Intelligence comes from a source of intelligence or Intelligence comes from Ignorance.

The fact is you can't see the clear evidence because your too close to the problem. Your like a beautiful woman who thinks she's unattractive you just can't see the truth.

Asana Bodhitharta

013.002
YUSUFALI: Allah is He Who raised the heavens without any pillars that ye can see; is firmly established on the throne (of authority); He has subjected the sun and the moon (to his Law)! Each one runs (its course) for a term appointed. He doth regulate all affairs, explaining the signs in detail, that ye may believe with certainty in the meeting with your Lord.

055.005
YUSUFALI: The sun and the moon follow courses (exactly) computed

039.005
YUSUFALI: He created the heavens and the earth in true (proportions): He makes the Night overlap the Day, and the Day overlap the Night: He has subjected the sun and the moon (to His law): Each one follows a course for a time appointed. Is not He the Exalted in Power - He Who forgives again and again?

035.013
YUSUFALI: He merges Night into Day, and he merges Day into Night, and he has subjected the sun and the moon (to his Law): each one runs its course for a term appointed. Such is Allah your Lord: to Him belongs all Dominion. And those whom ye invoke besides Him have not the least power.

031.029
YUSUFALI: Seest thou not that Allah merges Night into Day and he merges Day into Night; that He has subjected the sun, and the moon (to his Law), each running its course for a term appointed; and that Allah is well-acquainted with all that ye do?

029.061
YUSUFALI: If indeed thou ask them who has created the heavens and the earth and subjected the sun and the moon (to his Law), they will certainly reply, "Allah". How are they then deluded away (from the truth)?

016.012
YUSUFALI: He has made subject to you the Night and the Day; the sun and the moon; and the stars are in subjection by His Command: verily in this are Signs for men who are wise.

013.004
SHAKIR: And in the earth there are tracts side by side and gardens of grapes and corn and palm trees having one root and (others) having distinct roots-- they are watered with one water, and We make some of them excel others in fruit; most surely there are signs in this for a people who understand.

010.005
YUSUFALI: It is He Who made the sun to be a shining glory and the moon to be a light (of beauty), and measured out stages for her; that ye might know the number of years and the count (of time). Nowise did Allah create this but in truth and righteousness. (Thus) doth He explain His Signs in detail, for those who understand.

Frank013 How can you deny these signs? How do you think there are so many crops all of different flavors and different beauty. How do you not see how the moons light is situated to be shown in segments that time can be established by it.

Truly you do overlook the obvious everything comes from the earth yet their are fruits that you eat and otherthings you do not eat but both are from the same components of the earth. Will you not receive admonition?

Frank 013

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013.002
YUSUFALI: Allah is He Who raised the heavens without any pillars that ye can see; is firmly established on the throne (of authority);

Says who? And give me one good reason to believe them.

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He has subjected the sun and the moon (to his Law)!

Which law is this?

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Each one runs (its course) for a term appointed. He doth regulate all affairs, explaining the signs in detail,

Show me this detail.

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that ye may believe with certainty in the meeting with your Lord.

This is not evidence of any kind for anything, neither is it any kind of prediction.

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055.005
YUSUFALI: The sun and the moon follow courses (exactly) computed

Just about every person on the planet knew that the day and knight were separate and worked in cycles.

I’m really glad god was around to tell the people these things or they might have missed it. ::73

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039.005
YUSUFALI: He created the heavens and the earth in true (proportions):

What proportions? Does god bother to give specific measurements?

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He makes the Night overlap the Day, and the Day overlap the Night:

Really how did he do this?

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He has subjected the sun and the moon (to His law):

Which law is this again?

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Each one follows a course for a time appointed.

Again this is obviously observed by almost everyone. there is no need to attribute it to a god.

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Is not He the Exalted in Power - He Who forgives again and again?

Nope, afraid not!

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035.013
YUSUFALI: He merges Night into Day, and he merges Day into Night, and he has subjected the sun and the moon (to his Law): each one runs its course for a term appointed. Such is Allah your Lord: to Him belongs all Dominion. And those whom ye invoke besides Him have not the least power.

Same stuff as above.

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031.029
YUSUFALI: Seest thou not that Allah merges Night into Day and he merges Day into Night; that He has subjected the sun, and the moon (to his Law), each running its course for a term appointed; and that Allah is well-acquainted with all that ye do?

Ah, the old watcher in the sky… better watch out, better not cry, better not pout, I’m telling you why, Allah is watching from the sky!

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029.061
YUSUFALI: If indeed thou ask them who has created the heavens and the earth and subjected the sun and the moon (to his Law), they will certainly reply, "Allah". How are they then deluded away (from the truth)?

Yes let’s ask…

Allah; who has created the heavens and the earth and subjected the sun and the moon ?

Still waiting… no answer... a little thirsty though, does that count?

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016.012
YUSUFALI: He has made subject to you the Night and the Day; the sun and the moon; and the stars are in subjection by His Command: verily in this are Signs for men who are wise.

013.004
SHAKIR: And in the earth there are tracts side by side and gardens of grapes and corn and palm trees having one root and (others) having distinct roots-- they are watered with one water, and We make some of them excel others in fruit; most surely there are signs in this for a people who understand.

Yes I understand this; it is an example of obvious knowledge being attributed to a god.

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010.005
YUSUFALI: It is He Who made the sun to be a shining glory and the moon to be a light (of beauty), and measured out stages for her; that ye might know the number of years and the count (of time). Nowise did Allah create this but in truth and righteousness. (Thus) doth He explain His Signs in detail, for those who understand.

Again cycles of the sun and moon were no secret to ancient humans. This is another clear case of people attributing natural phenomena to an imaginary being.

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Frank013 How can you deny these signs?

Because they are not signs, they are barely disguised religious tricks.

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How do you think there are so many crops all of different flavors and different beauty. How do you not see how the moons light is situated to be shown in segments that time can be established by it?

Humans recognized a pattern nothing more. You truly are screwed up!

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Truly you do overlook the obvious everything comes from the earth yet their are fruits that you eat and other things you do not eat but both are from the same components of the earth. Will you not receive admonition?

Jeeze, do you have encephalitis? You seem to be suffering from some kind of brain damage.

I do not see anything obvious about a big, hairy, magic, man in the sky creating things willy-nilly, and what I eat is hardly evidence to that end.

Furthermore every unnamed law, cycle, celestial object, or food source mentioned has a better scientific explanation than… “The magic man who watches us from the sky did it.”

It is as ridiculous as it sounds.

Later

Edited by: Frank 013 at: 11/29/06 10:00 pm

Asana Bodhitharta

In the Quaran, God calls our attention to a very interesting attribute of the sky:

021.032
SHAKIR: And We have made the heaven a guarded canopy and (yet) they turn aside from its signs.

Most people looking at the sky do not think about the protective aspect of the atmosphere and the crucial functions that it serves. While destroying many metors big and small from falling to earth and harming living things. In addition, the atmosphere filters the light rays coming from space that are harmful to living things.You do know that the atmosphere also protects the earth from the freezing cold of the space, right?

Was this information also known 1400 years ago?

078.006-078.007
YUSUFALI: Have We not made the earth as a wide expanse,
And the mountains as pegs?

Mountains have roots deep under the surface of the ground. (Earth,Press and Siever, p. 413)

Mountains, like pegs, have deep roots embedded in the ground.
(Anatomy of the Earth, Cailleux, p.220)

mountains are peglike in shape, due to their deep roots.
(Earth Science,Tarbuck and Lutgens,p.15

021.031
YUSUFALI: And We have set on the earth mountains standing firm, lest it should shake with them, and We have made therein broad highways (between mountains) for them to pass through: that they may receive Guidance

This vital role of mountains, that was discovered by modern geology and seismic research, was revealed in the Qur'an centuries ago as an example of the supreme wisdom in God's creation.

With extensions that mountains extend out towards under the ground as well as over the ground, they clench different plates of the earth together like a peg. The Earth's crust
consists of plates that are in constant motion. This clenching property of mountains prevents shocks to a great extent, by fixing the earth's crust, which has a very movable structure.

(Earth Science,
Tarbuck and Lutgens,)

Was this information also known 1400 years ago?

Frank 013 I learned these things from the Quaran so how is this holy book not scientific. God created man so they might study His creation and know the Magnificence of their Lord.

Federika22

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God created man so they might study His creation and know the Magnificence of their Lord

Asana, your invisible friend seems like a self-centered, narcissistic nutso. Truly, you can't come up with a better reason for the creation of man than that? And I bet this sounds reasonable to you...

Nice job answering Frank's questions, btw. (Sarcasm) If you're trying to win atheist souls to your idea of god, you should probably at least answer questions by atheists, especially about stuff you've written. When you sidestep them it looks a bit obvious that you don't know what you're talking about. You are not doing the theist camp any favors by posting here.
In fact there be an eternal punishment awaiting you for making your god look so stupid and for keeping us atheists atheist. ::144

Asana Bodhitharta

Federika22,

The one thing I can't understand is the perverse desire for some of you to post irrelevent attacks if you notice most of the time that frank 013 is responding to one of my post he is actually arguing against something i've written.

It's okay to insult me, just add some informational element to your attacks. You don't seem to understand how completely moronic it is to post negative comments without any complimentary rebuttal of actual information.

Frank 013 engages, your just throwing stones.

irishrosem · Posted: Thu Nov 30, 2006 1:38 pm Post subject: Re:

You stated:

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False. you can look at fishapod and say it came from God because it exists.

But you also stated:

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You cannot simply look at one thing and say that it came from something else.

I stated:
These are contradictory. Please explain how both statements can be true.

Asana, you have yet to explain this. Do you ignore it because you are fearful you will look the fool? Trust me, you already look foolish when you counter sound arguments with scriptural nonsense. So just explain the contradiction. Your simple mind understands the request, yes?

Asana Bodhitharta · Posted: Thu Nov 30, 2006 3:27 pm Post subject: Re:

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You stated:

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False. you can look at fishapod and say it came from God because it exists.
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When I say "came from" in this statement I am referring to Fishapod being created.

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But you also stated:

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You cannot simply look at one thing and say that it came from something else.
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When I say "came from" in this statement I am referring to evolution (Macro Evolution).

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I stated:
These are contradictory. Please explain how both statements can be true.

We know that both of these statements can be made without contradiction because the first statement is talking about the fact that the fishapod exist so we know that it was "created". However the second statement is comparing two created objects and stating that the existence of one is not related to the other.

A perfect example is this you can look at the Sun and say, "The sun was created" how do you know? The evidence is the sun itself.

But you cannot say, "The sun came out of the moon" There is no evidence for that.

I hope that finally explains what I was saying.

There are so many animals we have never even seen. No one needs to look at fossils to find unique animals. Where did this evolve from?

www.boingboing.net/fishteeth8io.jpg

Edited by: Asana Bodhitharta at: 11/30/06 3:28 pm

Classical Celt · Posted: Thu Nov 30, 2006 5:06 pm Post subject: Re:

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There are so many animals we have never even seen. No one ne


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