Two Years Later, Iraq War Drains Military

Mr. Pessimistic

Quote:

Yet such remedies take time and no one, including senior U.S. and defense officials, can predict how long the all-volunteer force can sustain this accelerated wartime pace. Recruiting troubles, especially, threaten the force at its core. But with a return to the draft widely viewed as economically and politically untenable, senior military leaders say the nation's security depends on drumming up broader public support for service.

...

Sen. John W. Warner (R-Va.) said he worries primarily about the U.S. ability to respond if "some problem should arise on the Korean Peninsula."

"How capable are we of handling another major conflict?" asked Sen. John McCain (R-Ariz.). "It's pretty obvious that it would be incredibly difficult because of the portion of our resources devoted to Iraq and Afghanistan. What if a conflict broke out with North Korea or Iran?"

I will say it one more time: George Bush and his Gang of Thugs are absolute disasters for our country. Asshole fucks. Who did not see this coming since war in Iraq was contemplated so long ago.

Our troops are spread thin (must be Clinton's fault) and now we are in the position of carrying on a perpetual war with diminishing stength...just the right circumstances to invite more attacks on us. Yeah George, you really make the US safer! Way to go you simpleton!

Who here thinks we will see some sort of draft, or at least an attempt to reinstate the draft? And remember, GWB stated very clearly that the draft would never be considered in one of his FEW communications via televised speech. GWB is a two faced fuck. He has flip-flopped before and will do it again. The labeled John Kerry as a flip-flopper, and maybe he was (I dont agree), but Georgie's flip-flopping kills Americans and hope (and fathers and mothers and brothers and sisters...) for our children.

I am calling it...hope I am wrong though.

Mr. P.

The one thing of which I am positive is that there is much of which to be negative - Mr. P.

I came to get down, I came to get down. So get out ya seat and jump around - House of Pain

HEY! Is that a ball in your court? - Mr. P

I came to kick ass and chew Bubble Gum...and I am all out of Bubble Gum - They Live, Roddy Piper

Mr. Pessimistic · Posted: Tue Apr 05, 2005 9:33 am Post subject: ASPHINCTERSAYSDRAFT?

Recruiters woo Parents

Quote:
WASHINGTON — Faced with wilting recruitment and ongoing violence in Iraq, Army and Marine Corps recruiters are turning their attention to those most likely to oppose them: parents.

The two branches are shifting from a strategy that focused first on wooing potential recruits to one aimed at gaining the trust and attention of their parents by using grassroots initiatives and multimillion-dollar advertising campaigns.

Gettting parents to be ok with their children going off to war has become a STRATEGY! Wonderful!

Trying to feed the perpetual war machine!

Mr. P.

The one thing of which I am positive is that there is much of which to be negative - Mr. P.

The pain in hell has two sides. The kind you can touch with your hand; the kind you can feel in your heart...Scorsese's "Mean Streets"

I came to kick ass and chew Bubble Gum...and I am all out of Bubble Gum - They Live, Roddy Piper

Tessa3 · Posted: Tue Apr 05, 2005 6:48 pm Post subject: Re: ASPHINCTERSAYSDRAFT?

I cannot verify the truth of the attached article,rense.com/general63/draft.htm, but I can verify that my running partner, an Army colonel, just spent the last month readying the selective services in my home state and that selective positions that have been vacant for years have now been filled.

God bless President Bush and may he find a new job soon!

Tessa3 · Posted: Tue Apr 05, 2005 7:49 pm Post subject: Re: ASPHINCTERSAYSDRAFT?

I never get those websites attached right. I'm a dinosaur.

rense.com/general63/draft.htm

scrumfish · Posted: Wed Apr 06, 2005 12:24 am Post subject: Re: The Draft

Draft rumor debunkings.

According to the above site, the report to the president that the site you mention is an annual report, Tessa. I was doing a search to figure out what report that site was referring to because at the Selective Service website there is a link to an annual report and I couldn't figure out if it was the same one to which rense.com was referring (it didn't name the report, only mentions one). The site I posted also mentions draft board positions, which would explain the experiences of your running partner:

Quote:
The draft boards that exist around the country were created in 1980 when President Carter re-instituted draft registration. People on those boards were to serve a twenty-year term. For the past few years, the Selective Service has been trying to replace board members whose terms have expired.

Nothing like a war to promote volunteerism, eh?

It also mentions the legislation for starting up the draft that has already been defeated, last October, I believe. That is also mentioned on the front page of the Selective Service website. The way I understand how that came about was the Democrats proposed the law a long time a go as a political statement, the law fueled a bunch of rumors, so the Republicans brought it to a vote before the election to put those rumors to rest.

The site I posted claims to be about creating discussion on issues we as citizens should be aware of. If there is any misinformation on the particular list in the link that anyone notices I would appreciate being told about it.

I ran into the same article on rense.com on several different webpages. I think it might have something to do with this organization. I commend the enthusiasm for activism, but I was not terribly impressed with its information or conclusions.

Now to the matter of whether or not I think a draft is imminent. I think it is an unlikely possibility. I have read several articles by observers claiming that the U.S. military will have to start up the draft in order to complete its missions. The reasons most of them give are measures that the military have instituted in order to not have to implement the draft. I think that neither the president not the military leaders want to put the draft in effect. I do not think there is a plan to start the draft again that they are just not telling us.

I do think people should pay attention to this issue. Unfortunately, at this point in time I think people are taking advantage of the scare effect of "the draft" just like other people are taking advantage of the scare effect of "terrorism." I think this downgrades the possibility of a real discussion about the situation in Iraq and Afghanistan. Whether or not I think we should have taken military action against those countries, we did. I think it would be wrong to make a mess and not clean it up. What is the best way to do that? I don't think a draft is, but I'm certainly not going to run out and rejoin the military.

jjacobs43 · Posted: Wed Apr 06, 2005 11:32 am Post subject: Re: The Draft

The bottom line is that it would be political suicide for the Republicans if it came to a draft. I think they'd take pretty drastic measures in order to avoid this - even if that meant sacrificing their cause in the Middle East.

pctacitus · Posted: Wed Apr 06, 2005 9:08 pm Post subject: Re: DRAFT?

As for wooing parents, I am in my twenties and am soon to graduate from college (within a year) and am most likely going to join the military after graduation. I am being open about that with my parents, and my father accepts the choice as long as I do the socially good for me thing and become an officer (he is old enough to remember when M.I.T. required him to take two years of ROTC), at the same time, my mom knows two things about the military: 1) the only thing she sees on the news, scandal and/or death and 2) that I am going to join.

The idea that parents need the biggest convincing is not surprising. The generation of young people graduating from high school and college today have parents who only remember Vietnam, if they are old enough, or more likely, are young enough to have never been potentially subject to a draft and never volunteered.

The likelyhood of a draft is low for several reasons: 1) current military training and doctrine is based on having personel who volunteered which means they knew that war was a possibility (although some appear not to have understood this). 2) Neither party wants a draft, except perhaps the Democrats. In 2004, John Kerry remarked he thought there would have to be a draft if things didn't change in Iraq. In response, the House Republicans took a Democrats motion to reinstate the draft out of the armed services committee and brought it to the floor for a vote, where it was defeated by an overwhelming majority. 3) The armed services (especially the army) are trying to streamline their numbers as much as possible as it is, contracting out for less money the nonessential services and letting those in uniform switch to other occupational specialties.

…[T]o ignore the classics is ultimately to weaken the very foundations of our society. - James Atlas, Book Wars: What it Takes to be Educated in America

Tessa3 · Posted: Thu Apr 07, 2005 11:46 am Post subject: Re: DRAFT?

I have family members and friends returning to Iraq for the second and third time under the stop loss program which forces retention of servicement even after they have fulfilled their commitment. How do you feel about that Pctacitis? Do you not see that as a form of draft?

I assume you will going in as an officer, Pctacitus. You will feel responsiblity for the people that you command. How will you look them in the eye when you know that even after they have put themselves in harm's way and served their commitment, they will not be allowed to resume their lives?

pctacitus · Posted: Thu Apr 07, 2005 2:40 pm Post subject: Re: DRAFT?

Do I look at stop loss as a form of conscription, no. Anyone who signs up should understand that in the event of war, the military reserves the right to prolong your service as needed. As a commissioned officer, the service of which I was a member would have the right to recall me to active duty when needed. The responsibilities I would feel to those under my command signed up with the potential for hazardous duty and that in the event of war, their service could require them on active duty for years on end. If you were a member of a reserve or National Guard unit in the American Army on Dec. 7 1941, you certainly wouldn't have expected a discharge until the war was over. The fact that the Marines are not currently stop lossing and the Army is limiting the program to around 10-15,000 means that the services are trying to allow those people out who want out. But in war time, should people be so selfish as to place themselves above the interests of others?

…[T]o ignore the classics is ultimately to weaken the very foundations of our society. - James Atlas, Book Wars: What it Takes to be Educated in America

Tessa3 · Posted: Thu Apr 07, 2005 2:50 pm Post subject: Re: DRAFT?

www.military.com/Military...02,00.html

Stars and Stripes reports that four U.S. Marine Corps commands got the go-ahead to again enact stop loss, which could keep an additional 500 Marines on active duty past their original separation or retirement dates. The new policy goes into effect Oct. 1, and will affect Marines who had planned on getting out of the Corps on Oct. 15 or later.In this fourth stop-loss round for the Corps, the commanders have been given authority to tap any military occupation specialty, provided the selected Marine is used in a force protection role and relieves a Reservist who has been activated for the past year. If deemed necessary, the commander of Marine Forces Atlantic can retain up to 179 active duty Marines, a number that corresponds with the number of Reservists who will have served in force protection roles for the past year. The commander of Marine Forces Pacific can retain up to 137 Marines and commanders of both the Marine Corps Combat Development Command and Marine Corps Headquarters can retain up to 184 Marines combined.

The Corps is the only service with an active, indefinite stop-loss policy in effect. The Army modified its policy recently, and won't retain any soldiers more than a year past their original separation or retirement dates, an Army spokeswoman said. Both the Air Force and Navy have lifted their stop-loss policies, officials said.

pctacitus · Posted: Thu Apr 07, 2005 3:16 pm Post subject: Re: DRAFT?

My recollection from watching a hearing on C-Span was that the Marines did not currently use a stop loss program. Which if this piece you linked was posted this year is correct.

…[T]o ignore the classics is ultimately to weaken the very foundations of our society. - James Atlas, Book Wars: What it Takes to be Educated in America

pctacitus · Posted: Sat Apr 30, 2005 12:06 am Post subject: Re: Problems of Imperialism

I think that using Rome saying that an American fall is inevitable and soon is a bad piece of analysis. Rome was not the sole superpower of the Mediterranean until after the Second Punic War. In fact, the glory days of Rome would not come for almost another three centuries. The accession of Vespasian until the death of Marcus Aurelius over a hundred years later is what Gibbon considered the period anyone would choose to be born in. The most intriguing fact about American influence is how few troops are necessary, i.e. 17,000 in Korea where we are technically still in a state of conflict (ceasefire, but no peace agreement). With a military smaller than during the Cold War, the potential for expansion is quite large.

…[T]o ignore the classics is ultimately to weaken the very foundations of our society. - James Atlas, Book Wars: What it Takes to be Educated in America

wwdimmitt · Posted: Sat Apr 30, 2005 2:43 pm Post subject: Re: Problems of Imperialism

Who said anything about an American "fall" being inevitable, and soon??

I was suggesting that many of the problems which plagued Rome for several hundred years were similar to the problems we seem to be developing for ourselves.

Those domestic problems, and their associated political disasters, did ultimately lead to the collapse of the Roman Empire, but it took centuries, which I do not count as being "soon".

Do you think that our galloping deficit, which is now leading to inflation, is directly related to our adventures in Iraq and Afghanistan??

If not, what are the reasons?

WW

pctacitus · Posted: Sat Apr 30, 2005 5:07 pm Post subject: Re: Problems of Imperialism

The fall of the so-called "American Empire" is an argument I have heard over the last couple years. I think what we have is a kind of security and stability zone, which we and many other countries see as in our various national interests (political, military and commercial). The argument put forward by Thomas Barnett that there are two worlds, the functioning core, and the non-integrating gap. The core works to various degrees, and the non-integrating gap is cut-off from the rest of the world. We need a duel prong strategy to integrate the gap, while "policing," for lack of a better term, the transition. The US has taken the lead because other countries appear largely unable (ie China, Russia) or unwilling (ie Germany, Canada) to undertake such a mission.

Do I think Iraq and Afghanistan are the cause of the deficit, no. I think it is that the government is misallocating its resources into unnecessary programs (like Social Security, a trip to Mars) and unwilling to take the steps towards energy independence, like opening ANWAR then funding research for alternative forms of energy.

…[T]o ignore the classics is ultimately to weaken the very foundations of our society. - James Atlas, Book Wars: What it Takes to be Educated in America

pctacitus · Posted: Tue May 03, 2005 11:43 am Post subject: Anybody heard about this?

news.yahoo.com/s/afp/2005...MlJVRPUCUl

Apparently, Italian "journalist" Giuliana Sgrena lied about the speed her car was traveling.

"The report, which aired Thursday on CBS News, said US investigators concluded from the recording that the car was traveling at a speed of more than 60 miles (96 km) per hour.

"Giuliana Sgrena has said the car was traveling at a normal speed of about 30 miles an hour when the soldiers opened fired, wounding her and killing Nicola Calipari, the Italian agent who had just secured her release from a month's captivity.

"US soldiers said at the time of the March 4 incident that the car approached at a high rate of speed and that they fired only after it failed to respond to hand signals, flashing bright lights and warning shots.

"The conflicting accounts were among a number of differences that have prevented US and Italian authorities from reaching agreement on what happened.

"CBS, citing Pentagon officials, said the satellite recording enabled investigators to reconstruct the event without having to rely on the eyewitness accounts."

…[T]o ignore the classics is ultimately to weaken the very foundations of our society. - James Atlas, Book Wars: What it Takes to be Educated in America


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