Jeremy1952:: Of course attendance is better when we have guests

Chris OConnor:: Hello people

tarav:: Richard- we've been discussing your books

Meme Wars joined

Richard Dawkins:: So you all know each other. Do you all live in the same place?

NaddiaAoC:: Hi Chris!

Chris OConnor:: Good morning

Jeremy1952:: Oh no, all over the world

NaddiaAoC:: Hi Meme!

conanlee left

tarav:: no, not in the same place

Chris OConnor:: Well, good afternoon to Professor Dawkins

Jeremy1952:: oops, I hope conanlee isn't having computer problems, he's in China

Richard Dawkins:: Good afternoon

Meme Wars:: Yo!

Jeremy1952:: Probably our farthest away member

conanlee joined

Richard Dawkins:: Otherwise all American?

Chris OConnor:: Yes, we are all now. Conan is in China...no idea what time zone that would be.

tarav:: no

Jeremy1952:: I don't know, are we?

conanlee:: sorry, something wrong with my computer...

conanlee:: I'm in China

tarav:: i don't think so

Chris OConnor:: We have a "Guest Map" on our home page with a graphical representation of where we all live

Jeremy1952:: In "religion 1" chat room we get a lot of Australians, new Zealander, and brits of course

Chris OConnor:: www.booktalk.org

Richard Dawkins:: I have never been in a chat room before

Meme Wars:: conanlee Chinese Science Writer for National newspaper.

tarav:: this is only my 3rd time in a chat

Jeremy1952:: I think we'll list you as an African, Dr. Dawkins, just to make ourselves look good

Richard Dawkins:: We are all Africans

Chris OConnor:: Professor Dawkins - mind if we type "RD:" to address you? That makes it faster

Richard Dawkins:: That's fine

Jeremy1952:: Lol, good point!

tarav:: i joined booktalk after reading Selfish Gene

Richard Dawkins:: Good

Chris OConnor:: RD: You seem to type fast so chat rooms will be simple for you

tarav:: i wanted to talk about it

Meme Wars:: Selfish Gene is a classic!

Richard Dawkins:: Do you always discuss books?

Chris OConnor:: We discuss one nonfiction text every 2-months

Jeremy1952:: Speaking of selfish genes.... you've stated a couple of times that "Extended Phenotype" is your magnum opus, do

Jeremy1952:: you still feel that way?

Meme Wars:: Yes, mostly book on the Humanist bent.

Chris OConnor:: But we have forums for discussing other subjects

Richard Dawkins:: Well, I have written three other books since then

tarav:: we have a poetry thread

Chris OConnor:: I must read "A Devils Chaplain"

Richard Dawkins:: I think now I might give Climbing Mount Improbable as equal favourite

Meme Wars:: Yes, and I believe I have them all.

Jeremy1952:: I've tried to convince this crowd to skip selfish gene and go right to "phenotype" but no takers!

Richard Dawkins:: Yes, Jeremy I might agree with that

Chris OConnor:: You gave a very powerful talk at the conference about "A Devils Chaplain"

conanlee:: I first read Selfish Gene, next is Blind watchmaker

Richard Dawkins:: A Devil's Chaplain will appear in USA this autumn. It is published in Britain already

Richard Dawkins:: Conanlee, are you actually Chinese?

Meme Wars:: Selfish Gene, Extended Phenotype, The Blind Watchmaker, River out of Eden, Climbing Mount Improbable, and Unweaving the Rainbow. Am I missing any?

conanlee:: when will it appear in China?

Chris OConnor:: I'm really excited about that book

ZombieHatesYou joined

conanlee:: Yes, I am Chinese

Chris OConnor:: Hello Zombie

Jeremy1952:: I don't feel I personally got much from "mount improbable"; I'm glad I read it because I recommend it to people who want

ZombieHatesYou:: Okay, I am back.

ZombieHatesYou:: Hi Chris

arcAngle joined

Chris OConnor:: Hey Arc!

ZombieHatesYou:: Helping my friend in...one sec

Jeremy1952:: a short introduction to evolution

arcAngle:: Hello!

arcAngle:: Sorry to be late. Was catching up on the discussion.

Richard Dawkins:: So how do you want to proceed?

Chris OConnor:: I have no idea how many people to expect today

Jeremy1952:: I've read "Devils Chaplain", Dr. Dawkins; thanks to Amazon.co.uk, I have no trouble getting British publications

Richard Dawkins:: The US publishers won't like that. But I do

Chris OConnor:: Well, we usually just chat....no real format. People can simply ask questions and you answer however you like

Meme Wars:: So is "A Devil's Chaplin" your newest book? See my question above. Do I have all your Books?

Jeremy1952:: I almost wrote to thank you for sharing so much of your personal self in that book, so I'll do it now!

tarav:: or you can ask questions

Richard Dawkins:: Yes, A D C is my latest book

Jeremy1952:: Thanks!

Chris OConnor:: RD: I'm always nervous that the author/scientist will not know how to type...but we obviously don't have that issue now

Richard Dawkins:: It is what I do for a living, typing

Jeremy1952:: Lol, good point.

Jeremy1952:: Do you know the first book ever written on a typewriter?

Richard Dawkins:: Soon maybe I'll learn how to make those faces

Chris OConnor:: I don't Jeremy

tarav:: do some authors not know how to type?

ZombieHatesYou:: What authors can't type, Chris?

ZombieHatesYou:: Silly man.

Richard Dawkins:: Some write with a quill pen. Some dictate, and sound very longwinded

Jeremy1952:: One could dictate; my wife does all her book-writing longhand, even though she's an excellent typist

tarav:: lol

ZombieHatesYou:: Chris: Oh, no fun.

ZombieHatesYou:: I type with the speed of ten thousand cheetahs, or something.

Chris OConnor:: haha

Meme Wars:: Mr. Dawkins, could you share with us a summary on your newest book, A D C?
Jeremy1952:: And at least one important author uses a rod in his teeth

Richard Dawkins:: A Devil's Chaplain is a collection of writings, essays, journalism, obituaries, book reviews etc

Richard Dawkins:: Arranged into sections

Chris OConnor:: RD: Chatting is fun in that you can interact with people from all over the world. There are all sorts of shorthand codes you have to learn such as "LOL" which means Laughing Out Loud

Jeremy1952:: The thing about the funny faces is, they are automatic: so sometimes they pop up when you don't mean them too

Jeremy1952:: to

Richard Dawkins:: Some polemical, some sad, some happy, some scientific

Chris OConnor:: Meme - excellent - I would like that too

Meme Wars:: Is there a theme to "A D C"?

Chris OConnor:: Professor Dawkins read some excerpts from "A Devils Chaplain" and it sounds incredible

Richard Dawkins:: No one theme. About six or seven themes, arranged into six or seven sections

Genryu joined

Jeremy1952:: Who chose the title? Yourself, or the editor?

ZombieHatesYou:: Genryu

Richard Dawkins:: Much of it is already published, but only in Britain

Richard Dawkins:: I chose the title. It is a quotation from Darwin

ZombieHatesYou:: Chris: This is Genryu, whom I told you I would bring.

Chris OConnor:: Hello Genryu

Genryu:: Hi all, Zombie

Jeremy1952:: Ah, I remember now, you mention in the book.

Chris OConnor:: Zombie - ok

ZombieHatesYou::

Genryu:: Sorry to interrupt

arcAngle:: Prof. Dawkins, I simply want to say thank you. I have so enjoyed reading your thoughts in your books and articles.. Again, thank you.

Meme Wars:: I see there is a waiting list on Amazon . com for that book.

conanlee:: some from newspaper column ?

arcAngle:: I'll stop gushing now.

Chris OConnor:: For ADC? I better get on the list

Meme Wars:: In what context did Darwin use that phrase?

Richard Dawkins:: Thank you arcAngle. By the way why do you all have such funny names?

tarav:: me too

ZombieHatesYou:: My name is funny? :O

tarav:: you can just call me Tara

conanlee:: just like..open letter to prince Charles?

Chris OConnor:: RD: Have you seen the Chinese cover of "Unweaving?" Conan posted a picture of it on the forums.

ZombieHatesYou:: I never noticed. *sniffs*

Richard Dawkins:: What a book a Devil's Chaplain might write on the clumsy, wasteful, blundering low and horridly cruel works of nature

Meme Wars:: I chose Meme Wars out of seriousness.

arcAngle:: When you join a service such as this for message boards or chat, real names are the first thing to go.

Jeremy1952:: Darwin talked about his dog in "Origin"; scientists have gotten so stuffy since then (present company excluded, of course};

conanlee:: it's here

conanlee:: a5.cpimg.com/image/27/5C/...90200-.jpg

Richard Dawkins:: Darwin said that, my hero Darwin, one of the greatest thinkers of all time

arcAngle:: So you're left with trying to find a unique identifier. Hence the funny names.

Meme Wars:: I believe there is a battle of religions and ideas and we are running out of time to wake up to the destruction of Earth's ecosystem and coming energy crisis.

conanlee:: the Chinese version of U R

Richard Dawkins:: Thanks for showing me the Chinese cover of Unweaving. I have never seen it before

Jeremy1952:: I use my real name in chat, just because I'm not bright enough to keep track of an alias

tarav:: me too

Jeremy1952:: Also I heard stories of old men pretending to be kids, so I put my birth date right up front

Chris OConnor:: RD: Many of us are very much laymen when it comes to evolution (me!) and never know how exactly to address critics (creationists) when they bring up the lack of a complete fossil record. Any quick responses to these people?

tarav:: Jeremy- too funny

Jeremy1952:: ty tarav

Richard Dawkins:: It is grossly misleading to say there is an incomplete fossil record

Chris OConnor:: RD:

Chris OConnor:: woops

Richard Dawkins:: We are lucky to have fossils at all

arcAngle:: My name is always gone, normally I use hypotenuse, but here it was taken as well.

Richard Dawkins:: Even without a single solitary fossil, the evidence for evolution would be utterly overwhelming

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Chris OConnor:: RD: From what I understand there is....ahhh...exactly what you said. Fossilization is a rare process as it is

Jeremy1952:: Ah c'mon, Dr. D, we all know god put them there to fool people

Chris OConnor:: Hey Cinnamon!

cinnamon321:: Hi everyone.

Jeremy1952:: Hi cinnamon!

ZombieHatesYou:: Satan put those dinosaur bones there, Jer. Get with the program.

Richard Dawkins:: But as it is, we have lots of fossils, and they very convincingly indeed demonstrate that evolution is a fact

Jeremy1952:: Lol

Jeremy1952:: Thanks, Dr. D. And I hope you know I'm kidding!

Genryu:: isn't the problem though RD that it suits opponents of Evolution to be to say the least selective and reasoning with them is not really possible on those terms?

Richard Dawkins:: There are gaps in the fossil record. but not a single solitary fossil has ever turned up in the WRONG place

Richard Dawkins:: J B S Haldane once said that it would only take one fossil rabbit in the Precambrian to disprove evolution utterly

Chris OConnor:: RD: I see. And are gaps ever being filled in with new discoveries?

Meme Wars:: Unfortunately (pardon the pun), there will always be gaps in the fossil record, in-between any two we find!

Jeremy1952:: (How is that a pun)?

Richard Dawkins:: Quite right Meme Wars, and they play on that

tarav:: they are silly

Chris OConnor:: Meme - good point

Richard Dawkins:: No matter how much we close the gap, there is always a smaller gap in between

conanlee:: e.g. eyes can't form fossil

Richard Dawkins:: Yes, trilobite eyes fossil beautifully

Richard Dawkins:: Trilobite eyes are MAGNIFICENT

Chris OConnor:: RD: Have you ever debated Michael Behe?

Meme Wars:: The Cambrian explosion is a myth. It only points out to life arming itself with shells.

Richard Dawkins:: I wouldn't waste my time debating with Michael Behe

conanlee:: Behe!

Chris OConnor:: RD: To me Behe simply throws his arms up in defeat when he cannot understand something

Chris OConnor:: This bothers me

conanlee:: I think you are right RD, it's wasting time for Behe

Richard Dawkins:: Yes. Why do you say the Cambrian explosion is a myth

ZombieHatesYou:: *chuckles @ Behe*

Chris OConnor:: Actually, he commits the "confirmation bias." He is seeking data that agrees with his previously formed conclusion

Jeremy1952:: Lol. Chris, there's a whole essay in "Devil’s Chaplain" concerning why real scientists shouldn't debate creationists.

Richard Dawkins:: I think I agree that the Cambrian Explosion is a myth, but I am not confident

Chris OConnor:: Jeremy - I'm jealous...you already have read it?!

Meme Wars:: Because there was plenty of life before the explosion. It is that they had no shells or bones to become fossils.

Jeremy1952:: Yes - before "Unweaving"

arcAngle:: Life forms simply not conducive to fossilization?

Chris OConnor:: woops "confirmation bias"

conanlee:: Cambrian explosion.. there're many fossil in Yunnan,China

Jeremy1952:: Let me say it again: the Royal Post would be HAPPY to deliver a copy to your door!

Jeremy1952:: I think the question is, not whether there are many life forms in the cambrian, but whether it is really (was really)

Chris OConnor:: RD: Ok, a bit off topic....I'm curious about your views on the origins of life, not simply the evolution of life.

Jeremy1952:: an "explosion"

tarav:: Chris- he got it on Amazon. uk

Richard Dawkins:: I think the common ancestors of most of the phyla go back before the Cambrian, but fossils have not been found

Chris OConnor:: RD: I have always been impressed with Stanley Millers experiments

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Richard Dawkins:: Somebody asked about not debating creationists. It is true that in A Devil's Chaplain there is a correspondence between me and S J Gould agreeing on the matter

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Chris OConnor:: RD: Like Sagan I am a strong believer in the possibility of life existing elsewhere in the cosmos. I believe it to be highly probable and it excites me tremendously.

Meme Wars:: I wish to personally thank you R. Dawkins, for joining the staff of Free Inquiry. I always read your article first.

tarav:: it can be fun to debate them

Richard Dawkins:: Thank you Meme Wars

tarav:: but i don't have to do it often

ZombieHatesYou:: I debate creationists when I am bored...which is often.

Chris OConnor:: Debating creationists is sometimes like acknowledging them...

Genryu:: RD how does one counter a creationist then who simply sees things simplistically? i e that there must be a creator for things to exist. What would your response be to this mechanistic viewpoint?

Richard Dawkins:: Yes, it can be fun to debate them. But it also gives them credibility

tarav:: good point, Chris

Richard Dawkins:: Yes, I agree with Chris

tarav:: and RD

conanlee:: I translated some of RD's article, e.g. "what's natural"

Richard Dawkins:: Genryu, I can't answer that briefly. Three of my books are, in a sense, answers to you

cinnamon321:: I don't mean to be a jerk to creationists, but debating them just fuels the fire. Only once in a rare while can you get them to evaluate their position seriously.

Richard Dawkins:: Thank you conanlee for translating my articles

Richard Dawkins:: I agree with cinnamon

Chris OConnor:: RD: Exactly. But then when you don't they use that against you. But who really cares? Who do they use it on? Their flock of psuedointellectuals who already believe in an invisible superhero

arcAngle:: However, to not respond also leaves them room to declare you cannot respond. Not an easy tightrope to walk.

cinnamon321:: yes

conanlee:: I think it's a very impressive lecture

Richard Dawkins:: arcAngle yes, but I think that is a risk worth taking

Meme Wars:: So Richard, are there any other books in the work?

ZombieHatesYou:: I respond to them because I can respond. To not respond, to me, is like saying I can't defend my position...I think that we can, however, do it without fueling their needs for justification.

Richard Dawkins:: Ok ZHY, I think you are doing a good thing too. It is hard to decide

ZombieHatesYou:: *smiles*

Jeremy1952:: I'm gong to have to do a search for "what is natural". I'm rereading
Wilson's "Consilience" and thinking

Jeremy1952:: a lot about the "naturalist fallacy"

Chris OConnor:: The only times I will debate a creationist is when I feel they are capable of understanding the science/logic involved, which is seldom. Most theists I meet seem to need their faith

ZombieHatesYou:: I won't say I'm not tempted (and I do succumb) to calling them names, though.

Richard Dawkins:: Perhaps for established scientists it is better NOT to debate with them, because it gives them credibility. For students, I think it is good to debate them

conanlee:: www.greenpeace.org.uk/con...uPoint=A-L

arcAngle:: Ignore them as nonsense? I agree on a scientific level. However as an atheist living within a very vocal theist environment, I find I must speak out on occasion. Especially on education.

Richard Dawkins:: I am having trouble reading the messages. Could some buffer have filled up?

Chris OConnor:: RD: That makes me feel better I consider myself a student.

Richard Dawkins:: Not scrolling up properly

Richard Dawkins:: OK now, it is working again

tarav:: me too arcAngle

Chris OConnor:: RD: You can click the "Clear" button up top

Jeremy1952:: Oh cool, thanks for the link; I thought I'd booted myself off by mistake
conanlee: what about click "clear"?

Chris OConnor:: Ok, I cleared it myself

Chris OConnor:: That seems to help keep things legible

Jeremy1952:: I've read Ridley, G. Miller, and Cherfas and Gribbon on your recommendation. Are their others that you would especially recommend?

arcAngle:: Drag the corner to the size you prefer.

conanlee:: Richard, do you have any comment on "postmodernism blather"

Jeremy1952:: Or just hit the "maximize" button?

Richard Dawkins:: I already have dragged it, but the business part just stays small

Chris OConnor:: Conan - oh this will be good

Meme Wars:: Your windows page near the upper left corner has an "X", to the right of that is a square. Click on that.

tarav:: or click in the square in the corner

Richard Dawkins:: I am on a Mac

Genryu:: aha

Jeremy1952:: Oh!

ZombieHatesYou:: Eeek, a Mac.

cinnamon321:: lol

Genryu:: lol

ZombieHatesYou:: Is that legal?

Chris OConnor:: RD: I've had that happen too. Here is the solution. Click on the "Use Text Mode" and then go back to Graphics mode

arcAngle:: Thanks Jeremy. I tend to take the long way home.

Genryu:: required for the intelligencia I believe Zombie ;o)

ZombieHatesYou:: That must be my problem, babe.

Richard Dawkins:: It doesn't matter, it is working fine

Chris OConnor:: RD: That should work for you. Ok, good.

Chris OConnor:: RD: Any opinions on postmodernism?

Chris OConnor:: RD: We have one member that is still asleep that is a PM fan.

Chris OConnor:: So we can talk freely

Richard Dawkins:: Any idea what it MEANS? I suggest that it means absolutely nothing whatever

arcAngle:: RD: I remember you have a Mac. The best versions for your life form program were written for Mac. And I so wanted to play with them.

ZombieHatesYou:: *laughs at Chris*

Chris OConnor:: RD - We all totally agree.

conanlee:: I'm anxious to hear you talk about it

Meme Wars:: Dr. Dawkins, who do you recommend to keep an eye on (new young scientists) that will keep your torch lit?

Chris OConnor:: I love the Postmodernism random sentence generators.

Richard Dawkins:: David Haig

conanlee:: haha

Jeremy1952:: I think I got the link to the postmodernist generator from one of Dr. Dawkin's essays

Chris OConnor:: yes! haha

Richard Dawkins:: Yes, the PM generator is very funny

conanlee:: I got that generator through reading Nature

Richard Dawkins:: It is still up there, as far as I know

ZombieHatesYou:: Who has a link for the generator?

Meme Wars:: David Haig. Any one else?

conanlee:: yes, it still word

Richard Dawkins:: I think it is in Unweaving

Jeremy1952:: Does David Haig write anything for the masses?

Meme Wars:: What about Steven Pinker?

Chris OConnor:: RD - The first time I read one of the randomly generated statements I really thought I must be an idiot for not being able to decipher what was being said

cinnamon321:: Steven Pinker is great.

Richard Dawkins:: Unweaving the Rainbow, page 41

Jeremy1952:: One could hardly call Pinker "up and coming", though. He's a senior member of the community

Chris OConnor:: RD: We are reading Stephen Pinkers "The Blank Slate" right now.

Richard Dawkins:: Good, I greatly admire S Pinker

Jeremy1952:: EO Wilson says that's the reason nobody understands Kant: that it really doesn't mean anything

tarav:: What book would you recommend for us next, RD

cinnamon321:: lol Jer

Chris OConnor:: Jeremy - lol

Chris OConnor:: Yes, good question Tarav!

ZombieHatesYou:: So it wasn't just me, Jer...

Richard Dawkins:: Well, I don't know that that is fair about Kant, but it is certainly fair of lots of pretentious charlatans

cinnamon321:: I like Socrates: "I know nothing."

Genryu:: RD, If I can ask you something about a view of yours that essentially many religions are harmful, if I understand correctly? I happen to agree but that has an implication for me that an ethical response would be to actively counter some of the things that religions do or say. Can you comment on that?

Richard Dawkins:: Genryu, I suppose that if you think religions are actively harmful, it would be an ethical duty to oppose them

Richard Dawkins:: I actively oppose the religious indoctrination of children

tarav:: you should come to a school in the south

Richard Dawkins:: And I actively oppose the LABELLING of children, e.g. Catholic child, Muslim child

tarav:: so sad

Richard Dawkins:: I think that is child abuse

Chris OConnor:: Stephen Jay Gould frustrated me in that he refused to acknowledge that religion does indeed step on the toes of science. He believed in his NOMA principle, or Non Over Lapping Magistraria (spelling?) and I disagree

arcAngle:: Yes they are harmful. Any point of view that discourages independent thought is harmful.

Richard Dawkins:: I strongly agree, Chris, and arcAngle

Meme Wars:: We lost Asimov, Sagan, and "punctuated equilibrium" man (forgot his name for a moment). You're a bit alone. That is why I've asked for more names to carry the enlightenment on.

Genryu:: yes but how is one to counter that without being dismissed as 'intolerant'?

Richard Dawkins:: Well, you have already mentioned Pinker.

Jeremy1952:: SJ Gould, Meme; who we've just been talking about

Chris OConnor:: I think Gould was afraid of loosing funding....how else could he be so blind to the devastating effects and history of religious indoctrination?

arcAngle:: I just had to speak with my children. The science teacher at my child's school announced that she didn't believe in evolution, but that she had to teach it.

Richard Dawkins:: I think you can disagree with something strongly without being intolerant, provided you justify it

Chris OConnor:: Arc - oh wow.

Richard Dawkins:: What is intolerant is attacking people for what they are (e.g. black or homosexual)

Chris OConnor:: RD - good point.

Richard Dawkins:: If you attack them because of their politics or their religion, that seems to me fine and not per se intolerant

Richard Dawkins:: It is honest disagreement

ZombieHatesYou:: I'm not sure that religion itself is the thing that's actively harmful. Most religions have a lot of 'good' to offer. Perhaps it's more of a matter of the religious people that mucks things up. Using the religion as an excuse, or platform, to further their own agendas, insecurities, and ignorance.

ZombieHatesYou:: Or somethin'

conanlee:: Richard, tell us something about GM food

cinnamon321:: I wonder if any research has gone on regarding early religious indoctrination of young children. I wonder what evidence would be found if a longitudinal study was conducted regarding that.

Chris OConnor:: Here is what I tell people. I respect you as a person and the rights you possess as a person, but I have no respect for irrational beliefs.

Richard Dawkins:: I agree, Chris

Genryu:: I suspect thought that in some contexts, disagreeing strongly can also be seen as intolerance. For example if I were to say that dressing 6 year old girls up in a veil is to me abusive, here in the UK, I'd be labelled as being racially intolerant

conanlee:: I remember your words "Unfortunately the warning voices have been rather quiet, and now they are drowned by the baying cacophony: 'GM GM GM GM GM GM!' "

tarav:: me too, Chris

Meme Wars:: Religion allows the justification of "us against them"

Richard Dawkins:: GM is not a substance, it is not like radioactivity

Meme Wars:: Religion allows Nationalism.

Richard Dawkins:: M means modified, and you can modify in a good direction or a bad direction. The trick is to choose the good

Jeremy1952:: More than "allow" it Meme Wars; an argument can be made that the purpose of religion is "us against them"

conanlee:: but I found GM attract people

Chris OConnor:: What frustrates me is when I hear "But its just what I believe" as if this justifies disengaging ones brain. Beliefs are not "harmless" even though they exist in ones head. beliefs are like viruses (memes) that travel faster than genes...and infect others

Meme Wars:: Yes, Jeremy.

Richard Dawkins:: Meme Wars, I agree that religion allows 'Us against them'

conanlee:: as a science writer, I'm a bit puzzled about how to tell people GM is ok.

NaddiaAoC:: Very true, Chris.

Chris OConnor:: Hey Cheryl

NaddiaAoC:: Hi Chris

Richard Dawkins:: Not all GM is OK. Some is good. Some is bad. We need research to tell which is which

Meme Wars:: An irrational "us against them", us against nature", .

tarav:: RD- I have to go, but not without thanking you for moving me profoundly with your books. Also, thank you for chatting with us.

Jeremy1952:: There are two sides to that argument, conanlee; the anti-GM people are not all irrational

Richard Dawkins:: Thank you tarav

conanlee:: but some people want to ban ALL of them, don't they?

Chris OConnor:: We need a new meme. We need the world to embrace "thinking critically" as a virtue

Chris OConnor:: Take care Tarav

arcAngle:: Hmm... Us against them has been around for a long time. Yes, religion encourages it, but I can't say that it was at it's root. I think that is genetic.

Richard Dawkins:: You know about the Brights?

Meme Wars:: GM cannot be a threat, as they are introducing genes in a new pool that has not adapted.

tarav:: RD- I hope that you will return to chat again

Richard Dawkins:: thank you for inviting me

Chris OConnor:: RD - Ahh! Maybe you can explain that!

Meme Wars:: It will always be a weaker gene.

Chris OConnor:: RD - I was at the conference

tarav:: bye

tarav left

Richard Dawkins:: Bright is the new "Gay"

Chris OConnor:: RD - Is the Bright idea your bright idea?

Richard Dawkins:: Gay is a way homosexuals improved their image

Chris OConnor:: RD - or were you endorsing it?

Richard Dawkins:: Bright is the way freethinkeres can improve ours

Richard Dawkins:: No, I didn't invent it

Richard Dawkins:: I wrote an article in The Guardian

Chris OConnor:: I'll explain a bit too, for those that know nothing of the Bright concept

Richard Dawkins:: I'll give you the url

Meme Wars:: I'm a Bright!, Your a Bright! We're all a Bright!

Chris OConnor:: RD Many here have read that artcile

Jeremy1952:: An educated and rational opponent to GM (I'm not saying I'm against it, just that there is another side); is Barbara Kingsolver

Genryu:: I haven't yet Chris lol

arcAngle:: I have not, and would appreciate the url please.

Chris OConnor:: RD - yes that would be nice

Richard Dawkins:: books.guardian.co.uk/revi...12,00.html

Genryu:: ty

ZombieHatesYou:: *loves Kingsolver's books*

arcAngle:: Thank you.

conanlee:: some organizations, e.g. Geenpeace , want to ban all GM

Chris OConnor:: I'm recording a transcript here so we will have that URL people

Richard Dawkins:: The Brights own web site is

Richard Dawkins:: www.the-brights.net/

Chris OConnor:: Ahhh! I didn't have that URL

Jeremy1952:: Kingsolver was trained as a biologist, so she's not an "off the wall" nut. She makes well-reasoned arguments

Jeremy1952:: about sustainability.

Meme Wars:: On GM, we are introducing new genes into an old pool. And that gene pool hasn't learned how to play with the new player. It may not work in good concert with it. That is why it is not a threat.

Chris OConnor:: RD - Do you think this meme is catching?

Richard Dawkins:: It is also referred to in my Guardian article (which, b y the way will also be in Free Inquiry)

Richard Dawkins:: Today's New York Times has a wonderful Op ED piece by Daniel Dennett on being a Bright

Richard Dawkins:: Look at the NY Times today

Chris OConnor:: RD - It seems to be very difficult to create a powerful and contagious enough meme to spread faster than it is wiped out.

Richard Dawkins:: Send it to all your friends

Chris OConnor:: RD - Oh wow...then it does seem to be getting regognition

Richard Dawkins:: It will be very interesting to see whether this engineered meme spreads

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Genryu:: and how it mutates

Meme Wars:: You have link to that article in NY Times?

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Richard Dawkins:: www.nytimes.com/2003/07/1...2DENN.html

Chris OConnor:: Yes, to see if engineered memes work will be interesting

Meme Wars:: Thankyou!

Chris OConnor:: I wonder about the meme for the word "gay" and if it was engineered consciously

Jeremy1952:: www.nytimes.com/auth/logi...2DENN.html

conanlee:: Richard, is it ok to translate your article into Chinese? of course non-profit use only

NaddiaAoC:: I need to go, folks. Thank you for coming by, Richard!

Chris OConnor:: I've found that even creationists and/or theists get offended when I say I'm a "freethinker." They claim to be freethinkers too, not really understanding what the term means

ZombieHatesYou:: Be well, Naddia.

Richard Dawkins left

ZombieHatesYou:: Ack, he gots booted.

NaddiaAoC:: Bye all

Chris OConnor:: I booted him for being rude.

Jeremy1952:: ooops

Chris OConnor:: ROFL

ZombieHatesYou:: LOL Chris

Jeremy1952:: Lol CHris

NaddiaAoC left

conanlee:: ah...I think JAVA chat program is not that good

Meme Wars::

Chris OConnor:: Just kidding

cinnamon321:: Most people I've met don't know what a freenthinker is.

conanlee:: I lost 3 times

Chris OConnor:: I am exploring options for other chat softeware

Meme Wars: Get the star of the show back on here!

Jeremy1952: Yup, we're getting an upgrade soon, concanlee

Chris OConnor:: Ok, I cleared it myself

Chris OConnor:: That seems to help keep things legible

Jeremy1952:: I've read Ridley, G. Miller, and Cherfas and Gribbon on your recommendation. Are their others that you would especially reocmmend?

arcAngle:: Drag the corner to the size you prefer.

conanlee:: Richard, do you have any comment on "postmodernism blather"

Jeremy1952:: Or just hit the "maximize" button?

Richard Dawkins:: I already have dragged it, but the business part just stays small

Chris OConnor:: Conan - oh this will be good

Meme Wars:: Your windows page near the upper left corner has an "X", to the right of that is a square. Click on that.

tarav:: or click in the square in the corner

Richard Dawkins:: I am on a Mac

Genryu:: aha

Jeremy1952:: Oh!

ZombieHatesYou:: Eeek, a Mac.

cinnamon321:: lol

Genryu:: lol

ZombieHatesYou:: Is that legal?

Chris OConnor:: RD: I've had that happen to. Here is the solution. Click on the "Use Text Mode" and then go back to Graphocs mode

arcAngle:: Thanks Jeremy. I tend to take the long way home.

Genryu:: required for the intelligencia I believe Zombie ;o)

ZombieHatesYou:: That must be my problem, babe.

Richard Dawkins:: It doesn't matter, it is working fine

Chris OConnor:: RD: That should work for you. Ok, good.

Chris OConnor:: RD: Any opinions on postmodernism?

Chris OConnor:: RD: We have one member that is still asleep that is a PM fan.

Chris OConnor:: So we can talk freely

Richard Dawkins:: Any idea what it MEANS? I suggest that it means absolutely nothing whatever

arcAngle:: RD: I remember you have a Mac. The best versions for your lifeform program were written for Mac. And I so wanted to play with them.

ZombieHatesYou:: *laughs at Chris*

Chris OConnor:: RD - We all totally agree.

conanlee:: I'm anxious to hear you talk about it

Meme Wars:: Dr. Dawkins, who do you recommend to keep an eye on (new young scientists) that will keep your tourch lit?

Chris OConnor:: I love the Postmodernism random sentence generators.

Richard Dawkins:: David Haig

conanlee:: haha

Jeremy1952:: I thnk I got the link to the postmodernist generator from one of Dr. Dawkin's essays

Chris OConnor:: yes! haha

Richard Dawkins:: Yes, the PM generator is very funny

conanlee:: I got that generator through reading Nature

Richard Dawkins:: It is still up there, as far as I know

ZombieHatesYou:: Who has a link for the generator?

Meme Wars:: David Haig. Any one else?

conanlee:: yes, it still word

Richard Dawkins:: I think it is in Unweaving

Jeremy1952:: Does David Haig write anything for the masses?

Meme Wars:: What about Steven Pinker?

Chris OConnor:: RD - The first time I read one of the randomly generated statements I really thought I must be an idiot for not being able to decypher what was ebing said

cinnamon321:: Steven Pinker is great.

Richard Dawkins:: Unweaving the Rainbow, page 41

Jeremy1952:: ONe could hardly call Pinker "up and coming", though. He's a senior member of the community

Chris OConnor:: RD: We are reading Stephen Pinkers "The Blank Slate" right now.

Richard Dawkins:: Good, I greatly admire S Pinker

Jeremy1952:: EO Wilson says that's the reason nobody understands Kant: that it really doesn't mean anything

tarav:: What book would you recommend for us next, RD

cinnamon321:: lol Jer

Chris OConnor:: Jeremy - lol

Chris OConnor:: Yes, good question Tarav!

ZombieHatesYou:: So it wasn't just me, Jer...

Richard Dawkins:: Well, I don't know that that is fair about Kant, but it is certainly fair of lots of pretentious charlatans

cinnamon321:: I like Socrates: "I know nothing."

Genryu:: RD, If I can ask you something about a view of yours that essentially many religions are harmful, if I understand correctly? I happen to agree but that has an implication for me that an ethical response would be to actively counter some of the things that religions do or say. Can you comment on that?

Richard Dawkins:: Genryu, I suppose that if you think religions are actively harmful, it would be an ethical duty to oppose them

Richard Dawkins:: I actively oppose the religious indoctrination of children

tarav:: you should come to a school in the south

Richard Dawkins:: And I actively oppose the LABELLING of children, e.g. Catholic child, Muslim child

tarav:: so sad

Richard Dawkins:: I think that is child abuse

Chris OConnor:: Stephen Jay Gould frustrated me in that he refused to acknowledge that religion does indeed step on the toes of science. He believed in his NOMA principle, or Non Oer Lapping Magistraria (spelling?) and I disgaree

arcAngle:: Yes they are harmful. Any point of view that discourages independent thought is harmful.

Richard Dawkins:: I strongly agree, Chris, and arcAngle

Meme Wars:: We lost Asimov, Sagan, and "punctuated equilibrium" man (forgot his name for a moment). You're a bit alone. That is why I've asked for more names to carry the enlightement on.

Genryu:: yes but how is one to counter that without being dismissed as 'intolerant'?

Richard Dawkins:: Well, you have already mentioned Pinker.

Jeremy1952:: SJ Gould, Meme; who we've just been talking about

Chris OConnor:: I think Gould was afraid of loosing funding....how else could he be so blind to the devastating effects and history of religious indoctrination?

arcAngle:: I just had to speak with my children. The science teacher at my child's school announced that she didn't believe in evolution, but that she had to teach it.

Richard Dawkins:: I think you can disagree with something strongly without being intolerant, provided you justify it

Chris OConnor:: Arc - oh wow.

Richard Dawkins:: What is intolerant is attacking people for what they are (e.g. black or homosexual)

Chris OConnor:: RD - good point.

Richard Dawkins:: If you attack them because of their politics or their religion, that seems to me fine and not per se intolerant

Richard Dawkins:: It is honest disagreement

ZombieHatesYou:: I'm not sure that religion itself is the thing that's actively harmful. Most religions have a lot of 'good' to offer. Perhaps it's more of a matter of the religious people that mucks things up. Using the religion as an excuse, or platform, to further their own agendas, insecurities, and ignorance.

ZombieHatesYou:: Or somethin'

conanlee:: Richard, tell us something about GM food

cinnamon321:: I wonder if any research has gone on regarding early religious indoctrination of young children. I wonder what evidence would be found if a longitudinal study was conducted regarding that.

Chris OConnor:: Here is what I tell people. I respect you as a person and the rights you possess as a person, but I have no respect for irrational beliefs.

Richard Dawkins:: I agree, Chris

Genryu:: I suspect thought that in some contexts, disagreeing strongly can also be seen as intolerance. For example if I were to say that dressing 6 year old girls up in a veil is to me abusive, here in the UK, I'd be labelled as being racially intolerant

conanlee:: I remember your words "Unfortunately the warning voices have been rather quiet, and now they are drowned by the baying cacophony: 'GM GM GM GM GM GM!' "

tarav:: me too, Chris

Meme Wars:: Religion allows the justification of "us against them"

Richard Dawkins:: GM is not a substance, it is not like radioactivity

Meme Wars:: Religion allows Nationalism.

Richard Dawkins:: M means modified, and you can modify in a good direction or a bad direction. The trick is to choose the good

Jeremy1952:: More than "allow" it Meme Wars; an argument can be made that the purpose of religion is "us against them"

conanlee:: but I found GM attract people

Chris OConnor:: What frustrates me is when I hear "But its just what I believe" as if this justifies disengaging ones brain. Beliefs are not "harmless" even though they exist in ones head. beliefs are like viruses (memes) that travel faster than genes...and infect others

Meme Wars:: Yes, Jeremy.

Richard Dawkins:: Meme Wars, I agree that religion allows 'Us against them'

conanlee:: as a science writer, I'm a bit puzzled about how to tell people GM is ok.

NaddiaAoC:: Very true, Chris.

Chris OConnor:: Hey Cheryl

NaddiaAoC:: Hi Chris

Richard Dawkins:: Not all GM is OK. Some is good. Some is bad. We need research to tell which is which

Meme Wars:: An irrational "us againt them", us against nature", .

tarav:: RD- I have to go, but not without thanking you for moving me profoundly with your books. Also, thank you for chatting with us.

Jeremy1952:: There are two sides to that argument, conanlee; the anti-GM people are not all irrational

Richard Dawkins:: Thank you tarav

conanlee:: but some people want to ban ALL of them, don't they?

Chris OConnor:: We need a new meme. We need the world to embrace "thinking critically" as a virtue

Chris OConnor:: Take care Tarav

arcAngle:: Hmm... Us against them has been around for a long time. Yes, religion encourages it, but I can't say that it was at it's root. I think that is genetic.

Richard Dawkins:: You know about the Brights?

Meme Wars:: GM cannot be a threat, as they are introducing genes in a new pool that has not adapted.

tarav:: RD- I hope that you will return to chat again

Richard Dawkins:: thank you for inviting me

Chris OConnor:: RD - Ahh! Maybe you can explain that!

Meme Wars:: It will always be a weaker gene.

Chris OConnor:: RD - I was at the conference

tarav:: bye

tarav left

Richard Dawkins:: Bright is the new Gay

Chris OConnor:: RD - Is the Bright idea your bright idea?

Richard Dawkins:: Gay is a way homosexuals improved their image

Chris OConnor:: RD - or were you endorsing it?

Richard Dawkins:: Bright is the way freethinkeres can improve ours

Richard Dawkins:: No, I didn't invent it

Richard Dawkins:: I wrote an article in The Guardian

Chris OConnor:: I'll explain a bit too, for those that know nothing of the Bright concept

Richard Dawkins:: I'll give you the url

Meme Wars:: I'm a Bright!, Your a Bright! We're all a Bright!

Chris OConnor:: RD Many here have read that article

Jeremy1952:: An educated and rational opponent to GM (I'm not saying I'm against it, just that there is another side); is Barbara Kingsolver

Genryu:: I haven't yet Chris lol

arcAngle:: I have not, and would appreciate the url please.

Chris OConnor:: RD - yes that would be nice

Richard Dawkins:: books.guardian.co.uk/revi...12,00.html

Genryu:: ty

ZombieHatesYou:: *loves Kingsolver's books*

arcAngle:: Thank you.

conanlee:: some organizations, e.g. Geenpeace , want to ban all GM

Chris OConnor:: I'm recording a transcript here so we will have that URL people

Richard Dawkins:: The Brights own web site is

Richard Dawkins:: www.the-brights.net/

Chris OConnor:: Ahhh! I didn't have that URL

Jeremy1952:: Kingsolver was trained as a biologist, so she's not an "off the wall" nut. She makes well-reasoned arguments

Jeremy1952:: about sustainability.

Meme Wars:: On GM, we are introducing new genes into an old pool. And that gene pool hasn't learned how to play with the new player. It may not work in good concert with it. That is why it is not a threat.

Chris OConnor:: RD - Do you think this meme is catching?

Richard Dawkins:: It is also referred to in my Guardian article (which, b y the way will also be in Free Inquiry)

Richard Dawkins:: Today's New York Times has a wonderful Op ED piece by Daniel Dennett on being a Bright

Richard Dawkins:: Look at the NY Times today

Chris OConnor:: RD - It seems to be very difficult to create a powerful and contagious enough meme to spread faster than it is wiped out.

Richard Dawkins:: Send it to all your friends

Chris OConnor:: RD - Oh wow...then it does seem to be getting recognition

Richard Dawkins:: It will be very interesting to see whether this engineered meme spreads

conanlee left

Genryu:: and how it mutates

Meme Wars:: You have link to that article in NY Times?

conanlee joined

Richard Dawkins:: www.nytimes.com/2003/07/1...2DENN.html

Chris OConnor:: Yes, to see if engineered memes work will be interesting

Meme Wars:: Thank you!

Chris OConnor:: I wonder about the meme for the word "gay" and if it was engineered consciously

Jeremy1952:: www.nytimes.com/auth/logi...2DENN.html

conanlee:: Richard, is it ok to translate your article into Chinese? of course non-profit use only

NaddiaAoC:: I need to go, folks. Thank you for coming by, Richard!

Chris OConnor:: I've found that even creationists and/or theists get offended when I say I'm a "freethinker." They claim to be freethinkers too, not really understanding what the term means

ZombieHatesYou:: Be well, Naddia.

Richard Dawkins left

ZombieHatesYou:: Ack, he gots booted.

NaddiaAoC:: Bye all

Chris OConnor:: I booted him for being rude.

Jeremy1952:: ooops

Chris OConnor:: ROFL

ZombieHatesYou:: LOL Chris

Jeremy1952:: Lol CHris

NaddiaAoC left

conanlee:: ah...I think JAVA chat program is not that good

Meme Wars::

Chris OConnor:: Just kidding

cinnamon321:: Most people I've met don't know what a freenthinker is.

conanlee:: I lost 3 times

Chris OConnor:: I am exploring options for other chat softeware

Meme Wars:: Get the star of the show back on here!

Jeremy1952:: Yup, we're getting an upgrade soon, concanlee

conanlee:: what about IRC?

ZombieHatesYou:: Yeah, you need a better chat thingie here, Chris. I pay good nothing for this, and I demand satisfaction.

Richard Dawkins joined

cinnamon321:: wb

ZombieHatesYou:: Welcome back, Mr Dawkins.

Jeremy1952:: wb! booted?

Richard Dawkins:: Sorry, I got booted out

Genryu:: wb RD

Jeremy1952:: I was just telling conanlee, we're working on better chat software

Meme Wars:: Richard any life goals you have left to attain?

Genryu:: good nothing lol

ZombieHatesYou:: *grins*

Chris OConnor:: RD: We are limited with this chat room. There are better programs out there, but this is all we have right now.

Chris OConnor:: Meme - good one!

Richard Dawkins:: This one seems fine to me

arcAngle left

Jeremy1952:: Truthfully, I kind of like it too. Too fancy is just overkill

arcAngle joined

Chris OConnor:: I can't think of a better way to live beyond the grave than by writing books.

Meme Wars:: And do you have any burning issues. Mine are Human Overpopulation, waistful use of energy.

ZombieHatesYou:: This one doesn't have complete expressive smileys so that I can chat without typing anything but faces and still get my point across...

arcAngle:: Sorry. Screen freeze.

Jeremy1952:: Dr. Dawkins, did you see my question earlier about other authors you might recommend?

cinnamon321:: Yeah, I like this chatroom too. But I guess depending on your connection speed, you can get booted often.

Richard Dawkins:: The late Carl Sagan

conanlee:: Richard, is it ok to translate your article into Chinese? of course non-profit use only. Because I think your article really do some help, e.g. anti-antiscience, GM safety, etc.

Richard Dawkins:: The late Peter Medawar

Richard Dawkins:: You are welcome to translate any articles of mine into Chinese. So long as it is beautiful, poetic Chinese

Chris OConnor:: RD: Do you know anything about Howard Bloom and his books "The Lucifer Principle" and "The Global Brain?"

Genryu:: lol RD

Meme Wars:: What was the question that brought up Sagan and Medawar?

Richard Dawkins:: I know of him, but I am afraid I don't know much about Howard Bloom. Seems interesting?

Chris OConnor:: RD - We read both books here at BookTalk, and many feel Howard is not engaged in real science

Jeremy1952:: Just for fair warning: I think he's a nut

Richard Dawkins:: I was asked to recommend other authors, and I recommended Sagan and Medawar

Gluepot and Fatass joined

arcAngle:: I very much enjoyed Sagan's Demon Haunted World. The Dragon in My Garage, and The Bologna Kit especially.

Richard Dawkins:: Oh, OK J1952, I am warned

Chris OConnor:: RD - His idea is that group selection is as important as genes

Chris OConnor:: omg Gluepot!

conanlee:: Cosmos!

Meme Wars:: Richard, do you still have any outstanding life-goal to accomplish? And what issues burn within you?

Gluepot and Fatass:: I overslept

cinnamon321:: Jeremy---I sort of agree on Bloom not doing real science.

Jeremy1952:: Thanks! Few authors have made as many good recommendations as you have, Dr. Dawkins.

Chris OConnor:: LOL

Richard Dawkins:: Oh, I am not so keen on Group Selection

Jeremy1952:: I just finished Miller, "Mating Mind" on your recommendation

Richard Dawkins:: Matt Ridley, Mark Ridley

Richard Dawkins:: Geoffrey Miller is very good

Chris OConnor:: I love reading Desmond Morris

Richard Dawkins:: Helena Cronin: The Ant and the Peacock, beautifully written

Chris OConnor:: "The Naked Ape" is a fav

cinnamon321:: I believe Matt Ridley has a new book out on Nature vs. Nurture.

Jeremy1952:: I'm in the middle of "Nature Via Nurture (Ridley); you got me started on him, too.

Chris OConnor:: Wow, we have some great recommendations here

Richard Dawkins:: Steven Pinker, Daniel Dennett

Richard Dawkins:: Susan Blackmore

Meme Wars:: I enjoyed the "Naked Ape" gee, that was ages ago!

Chris OConnor:: Daniel Dennett is who you suggested next Jeremy...right?

Richard Dawkins:: Yes, Naked Ape, around 1967

Meme Wars:: So Dawkins, any life goals left?

Jeremy1952:: NOT VERSUS CINNAMON!

Chris OConnor:: If I ever win the lottery I'll go back to school for science

Jeremy1952:: VIA!

Chris OConnor:: Wake up Tim

Richard Dawkins:: Meme Wars, you make me feel so old

Chris OConnor:: haha

Meme Wars:: You're the same age as my parents!

cinnamon321:: Yeah, Jeremy...LOL...my memory ain't so hot. Its been stuffed with statistics homework.

Jeremy1952:: Oh yes, I forgot about Blackmore. I ran out and read "Meme Machine" as soon as you mentioned it

Chris OConnor:: Meme - ummm....shhhhhh

conanlee:: Richard, how do you think about the anti-science trend of thought ?

Meme Wars:: I'm 45, my dad born 1940, Mom 1942.

Jeremy1952:: Holy heck, Meme. My dad was born in oh seven

ZombieHatesYou:: *feels terribly young*

Meme Wars:: I do admit, I was surprised by your age. You do look so young. What year were those pictures taken, anyway?

Genryu:: lol

Richard Dawkins:: conanlee, do you think there is a worldwide anti-science trend?

Chris OConnor:: RD: I have met you and you're young physically and otherwise.

MichaelangeloGlossolalia joined

Gluepot and Fatass:: He has a secret elixir of youth he’s hiding?

conanlee:: well, I think so

Richard Dawkins:: I think there maybe a trend in America, perhaps driven by the religious right

Chris OConnor:: Michael! Welcome

Jeremy1952:: Nature via Nurture is a fabulous, fabulous book. Ridley is following up on many of the ideas in

ZombieHatesYou:: huahua!

Genryu:: i honestly think there is at least here in Europe

MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: hi Chris...for some reason I thought it was at 10 Pacific

Chris OConnor:: RD can dance.

Chris OConnor:: ...too

Chris OConnor:: lol

MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: hi zombie

conanlee:: at least I find them in us, uk and china

Jeremy1952:: Extended Phenotype, with specifics.... the actual genetic pathways from one organism to another

Richard Dawkins:: Where are you Genryu?

Jeremy1952:: have been traced , are being worked out

Genryu:: in the UK RD

Meme Wars:: Neighbors?

Chris OConnor:: RD: I asked earlier but I think my message was one that got lost. Any opinions on the origins of life? ...and also life elsewhere in the cosmos?

Jeremy1952:: Dr. Dawkins asserts that SJ Gould was a better writer than himself; I always disagreed... Dawkins has been my

Jeremy1952:: favorite, until I ran across Ridley.

Meme Wars:: So do you, Dawkins, have any other burning issues or passions, other than science?

ZombieHatesYou:: Michael: I tried reminding you in Rel:1 earlier, but you did not pay attention to me. *sniffs*

Richard Dawkins:: Sex

conanlee:: there're something similar in China

MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: zombie--I didn't notice, sorry

Jeremy1952:: Lol

MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: I was multitasking

cinnamon321:: I don't think that there is a worldwide anti-science movement. But I do think that a lot of science is molded and researched is changed to support political and religious ideals. This often makes it harder for scientists to be heard.

ZombieHatesYou:: You always are.

arcAngle:: :snicker:

Chris OConnor:: Jeremy - I agree. Not that I didn't like Gould as a writer, but I always felt Gould was too high on himself.

Meme Wars::

MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: I think there is an anti-intellectual movement

conanlee:: just like "social text"

MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: or a social pattern that attacks intellectuals from time to time

Chris OConnor:: I think there has always been an anti-intellectual movement.

Chris OConnor:: Its called religion.

Jeremy1952:: I never noticed that about Gould himself; but Dr. Dawkins has asserted several times that Gould is the better writer

MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: chris, yes, but lately it's been worse, like anti-Semitism

Chris OConnor:: Ahh

Richard Dawkins:: I have never asserted, as far as I can remember, that Gould is a better writer

Meme Wars:: To me, religion is nothing more than a subset of culture.

Chris OConnor:: RD - Good, because he is not.

Gluepot and Fatass:: There has always been a anti-rational movement in philosophy--nominalism...or now postmodernism as its called

Meme Wars:: Tradition.

MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: I see some properties of religion in all groups that close ranks when challenged

cinnamon321:: I agree meme.

conanlee:: Richard, how do you think about "two-culture"?

Chris OConnor:: Conan - what is that?

Genryu:: including scientists Michael?

Gluepot and Fatass:: There has always been a anti-rational movement in philosophy--nominalism...or now postmodernism as its called

Meme Wars:: Tradition.

MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: I see some properties of religion in all groups that close ranks when challenged

cinnamon321:: I agree meme.

conanlee:: Richard, how do you think about "two-culture"?

Chris OConnor:: Conan - what is that?

Genryu:: including scientists Michael?

Richard Dawkins:: conan means C P Snow's lecture The Two Cultures

arcAngle:: My time is up. Thanks again RD. I enjoyed meeting you very much.

conanlee:: does this concept really exist?

arcAngle:: See everyone later.

Richard Dawkins:: OK, thanks for talking to me

MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: gen--often

arcAngle left

Genryu:: see now that could be endless Conanleee lol

conanlee:: yes, Snow's "two culture"

Richard Dawkins:: John Brockman, NY literary agent, has founded The Third Culture

Meme Wars:: People are raised in culture, then as adults, their minds turn to cement.

MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: most groups of humans have an "establishment" that marginalizes whatever it sees as incompatible

conanlee: I have read the third culture

Chris OConnor:: Ok, I cleared it myself

Chris OConnor:: That seems to help keep things legible

Jeremy1952:: I've read Ridley, G. Miller, and Cherfas and Gribbon on your recommendation. Are their others that you would especially reocmmend?

arcAngle:: Drag the corner to the size you prefer.

conanlee:: Richard, do you have any comment on "postmodernism blather"

Jeremy1952:: Or just hit the "maximize" button?

Richard Dawkins:: I already have dragged it, but the business part just stays small

Chris OConnor:: Conan - oh this will be good

Meme Wars:: Your windows page near the upper left corner has an "X", to the right of that is a square. Click on that.

tarav:: or click in the square in the corner

Richard Dawkins:: I am on a Mac

Genryu:: aha

Jeremy1952:: Oh!

ZombieHatesYou:: Eeek, a Mac.

cinnamon321:: lol

Genryu:: lol

ZombieHatesYou:: Is that legal?

Chris OConnor:: RD: I've had that happen to. Here is the solution. Click on the "Use Text Mode" and then go back to Graphics mode

arcAngle:: Thanks Jeremy. I tend to take the long way home.

Genryu:: required for the intelligencia I believe Zombie ;o)

ZombieHatesYou:: That must be my problem, babe.

Richard Dawkins:: It doesn't matter, it is working fine

Chris OConnor:: RD: That should work for you. Ok, good.

Chris OConnor:: RD: Any opinions on postmodernism?

Chris OConnor:: RD: We have one member that is still asleep that is a PM fan.

Chris OConnor:: So we can talk freely

Richard Dawkins:: Any idea what it MEANS? I suggest that it means absolutely nothing whatever

arcAngle:: RD: I remember you have a Mac. The best versions for your lifeform program were written for Mac. And I so wanted to play with them.

ZombieHatesYou:: *laughs at Chris*

Chris OConnor:: RD - We all totally agree.

conanlee:: I'm anxious to hear you talk about it

Meme Wars:: Dr. Dawkins, who do you recommend to keep an eye on (new young scientists) that will keep your tourch lit?

Chris OConnor:: I love the Postmodernism random sentence generators.

Richard Dawkins:: David Haig

conanlee:: haha

Jeremy1952:: I think I got the link to the postmodernist generator from one of Dr.

Dawkin's essays

Chris OConnor:: yes! haha

Richard Dawkins:: Yes, the PM generator is very funny

conanlee:: I got that generator through reading Nature

Richard Dawkins:: It is still up there, as far as I know

ZombieHatesYou:: Who has a link for the generator?

Meme Wars:: David Haig. Any one else?

conanlee:: yes, it still word

Richard Dawkins:: I think it is in Unweaving

Jeremy1952:: Does David Haig write anything for the masses?

Meme Wars:: What about Steven Pinker?

Chris OConnor:: RD - The first time I read one of the randomly generated statements I really thought I must be an idiot for not being able to decipher what was ebbing said

cinnamon321:: Steven Pinker is great.

Richard Dawkins:: Unweaving the Rainbow, page 41

Jeremy1952:: ONe could hardly call Pinker "up and coming", though. He's a senior member of the community

Chris OConnor:: RD: We are reading Stephen Pinkers "The Blank Slate" right now.

Richard Dawkins:: Good, I greatly admire S Pinker

Jeremy1952:: EO Wilson says that's the reason nobody understands Kant: that it really doesn't mean anything

tarav:: What book would you recommend for us next, RD

cinnamon321:: lol Jer

Chris OConnor:: Jeremy - lol

Chris OConnor:: Yes, good question Tarav!

ZombieHatesYou:: So it wasn't just me, Jer...

Richard Dawkins:: Well, I don't know that that is fair about Kant, but it is certainly fair of lots of pretentious charlatans

cinnamon321:: I like Socrates: "I know nothing."

Genryu:: RD, If I can ask you something about a view of yours that essentially many religions are harmful, if I understand correctly? I happen to agree but that has an implication for me that an ethical response would be to actively counter some of the things that religions do or say. Can you comment on that?

Richard Dawkins:: Genryu, I suppose that if you think religions are actively harmful, it would be an ethical duty to oppose them

Richard Dawkins:: I actively oppose the religious indoctrination of children

tarav:: you should come to a school in the south

Richard Dawkins:: And I actively oppose the LABELLING of children, e.g. Catholic child, Muslim child

tarav:: so sad

Richard Dawkins:: I think that is child abuse

Chris OConnor:: Stephen Jay Gould frustrated me in that he refused to acknowledge that religion does indeed step on the toes of science. He believed in his NOMA principle, or Non Oer Lapping Magistraria (spelling?) and I disgaree

arcAngle:: Yes they are harmful. Any point of view that discourages independent thought is harmful.

Richard Dawkins:: I strongly agree, Chris, and arcAngle

Meme Wars:: We lost Asimov, Sagan, and "punctuated equilibrium" man (forgot his name for a moment). You're a bit alone. That is why I've asked for more names to carry the enlightenment on.

Genryu:: yes but how is one to counter that without being dismissed as 'intolerant'?

Richard Dawkins:: Well, you have already mentioned Pinker.

Jeremy1952:: SJ Gould, Meme; who we've just been talking about

Chris OConnor:: I think Gould was afraid of loosing funding....how else could he be so blind to the devastating effects and history of religious indoctrination?

arcAngle:: I just had to speak with my children. The science teacher at my child's school announced that she didn't believe in evolution, but that she had to teach it.

Richard Dawkins:: I think you can disagree with something strongly without being intolerant, provided you justify it

Chris OConnor:: Arc - oh wow.

Richard Dawkins:: What is intolerant is attacking people for what they are (e.g. black or homosexual)

Chris OConnor:: RD - good point.

Richard Dawkins:: If you attack them because of their politics or their religion, that seems to me fine and not per se intolerant

Richard Dawkins:: It is honest disagreement

ZombieHatesYou:: I'm not sure that religion itself is the thing that's actively harmful. Most religions have a lot of 'good' to offer. Perhaps it's more of a matter of the religious people that mucks things up. Using the religion as an excuse, or platform, to further their own agendas, insecurities, and ignorance.

ZombieHatesYou:: Or something'

conanlee:: Richard, tell us something about GM food

cinnamon321:: I wonder if any research has gone on regarding early religious indoctrination of young children. I wonder what evidence would be found if a longitudinal study was conducted regarding that.

Chris OConnor:: Here is what I tell people. I respect you as a person and the rights you possess as a person, but I have no respect for irrational beliefs.

Richard Dawkins:: I agree, Chris

Genryu:: I suspect thought that in some contexts, disagreeing strongly can also be seen as intolerance. For example if I were to say that dressing 6 year old girls up in a veil is to me abusive, here in the UK, I'd be labeled as being racially intolerant

conanlee:: I remember your words "Unfortunately the warning voices have been rather quiet, and now they are drowned by the baying cacophony: 'GM GM GM GM GM GM!' "

tarav:: me too, Chris

Meme Wars:: Religion allows the justification of "us against them"

Richard Dawkins:: GM is not a substance, it is not like radioactivity

Meme Wars:: Religion allows Nationalism.

Richard Dawkins:: M means modified, and you can modify in a good direction or a bad direction. The trick is to choose the good

Jeremy1952:: More than "allow" it Meme Wars; an argument can be made that the purpose of religion is "us against them"

conanlee:: but I found GM attract people

Chris OConnor:: What frustrates me is when I hear "But its just what I believe" as if this justifies disengaging ones brain. Beliefs are not "harmless" even though they exist in ones head. beliefs are like viruses (memes) that travel faster than genes...and infect others

Meme Wars:: Yes, Jeremy.

Richard Dawkins:: Meme Wars, I agree that religion allows 'Us against them'

conanlee:: as a science writer, I'm a bit puzzled about how to tell people GM is ok.

NaddiaAoC:: Very true, Chris.

Chris OConnor:: Hey Cheryl

NaddiaAoC:: Hi Chris

Richard Dawkins:: Not all GM is OK. Some is good. Some is bad. We need research to tell which is which

Meme Wars:: An irrational "us against them", us against nature", .

tarav:: RD- I have to go, but not without thanking you for moving me profoundly with your books. Also, thank you for chatting with us.

Jeremy1952:: There are two sides to that argument, conanlee; the anti-GM people are not all irrational

Richard Dawkins:: Thank you tarav

conanlee:: but some people want to ban ALL of them, don't they?

Chris OConnor:: We need a new meme. We need the world to embrace "thinking critically" as a virtue

Chris OConnor:: Take care Tarav

arcAngle:: Hmm... Us against them has been around for a long time. Yes, religion encourages it, but I can't say that it was at it's root. I think that is genetic.

Richard Dawkins:: You know about the Brights?

Meme Wars:: GM cannot be a threat, as they are introducing genes in a new pool that has not adapted.

tarav:: RD- I hope that you will return to chat again

Richard Dawkins:: thank you for inviting me

Chris OConnor:: RD - Ahh! Maybe you can explain that!

Meme Wars:: I