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connected: ezChat version 0.50
howbloom:: the lord of the rings trilogy
howbloom:: hi, chris
Chris OConnor:: Hello folks
Jeremy1952 joined
howbloom:: hi jeremy
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: yeah, great timing
for it, with looming war etc.
Chris OConnor:: Hey Howard!
howbloom:: i have about
30 books in the computer
Jeremy1952:: Hi Dr. Bloom
Jeremy1952:: welcome back!
Chris OConnor:: Howard - were you watching Bush
talk the past hour?
howbloom:: one of them
is "Hit In The Head By Heavy Metal"
howbloom:: no, what did he say?
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: I was proud of bush
today, he only said "nuclear" a few
times
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: er...nucular
howbloom:: nuculur
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: yeah, that one
howbloom:: so what did
he say?
Chris OConnor:: Howard - he is giving a speech
about why we need to disarm Iraq - preparing for
war
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: he's such a Pygmalion
Chris OConnor:: I am totally in support of Bush
howbloom:: ok, so how
do you guys feel
Sephirah Geburah:: When do you plan on having
"Hit in the head by heavy metal" available
to the masses?! I would love nothing more than
to read your wisdom on music!
Jeremy1952:: I'm guessing he said, we're gonna
have a war, and you can't stop me, neener neener
neener
howbloom:: about the
elephant in the room
howbloom:: the war
Chris OConnor:: Howard - I feel that if we don't
address this problem we will pay for it dearly
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: I'm hoping it goes
perfectly and the Iraqis love us
pctacitus:: it's a risk, but it may pay off in
the long run
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: I suspect it's gonna
be a bit messier
howbloom:: do you want
the bloomean view?
Jeremy1952:: I think it is essentially a holy
war;
pctacitus:: yes
Chris OConnor:: Howard - please....yes
Jeremy1952:: I think bush is reintroducing...
howbloom:: this is a
necessary war
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: I might not be so worried
if someone other than a
fundamentalist Christian were in office
Jeremy1952:: but I'll wait
pctacitus:: how so?
howbloom:: we have three
choices ahead of us
Chris OConnor:: Howard - I think it is too
howbloom:: a pax americana
howbloom:: a world ruled by America
howbloom:: a pax sinica
howbloom:: a world ruled by china
howbloom:: or a mad max nightmare
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: you mean a world run
by multinational corporations through
america
howbloom:: the possible
end of the human race
howbloom:: whatever
pctacitus:: I'll take option #1
howbloom:: that's another
issue
howbloom:: and an important one
Chris OConnor:: Howard - thats what I fear....an
end to the human species
Jeremy1952:: I'm all for rule by america... by
an ethical, moral america
howbloom:: in three to
five years some of the most insane people in the
world
Jeremy1952:: I dont' think its another issue at
all
Chris OConnor:: Howard - a regression to the Dark
Ages or worse
howbloom:: will have
nuculur weapons
Johnny Neuron joined
howbloom:: jeremy, it's
an important issue that we can discuss
Chris OConnor:: hey brad - welcome
Jeremy1952:: The issue is, what are we becoming,
in persuit of elusive "safety"?
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: I fear the mythology
of End Times will influence Bush to refuse to
help the peace process in Israel. Anyone who signs
a peace treaty there is the antichrist according
to a large number of Bush supporters.
Jeremy1952:: The principles of cooperation....
we are a Defector with a capital D.
howbloom:: yes, one of
the bloom books that's been waiting in the computer
since 1985 is called
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: why would those people
be deterred by us imposing regime change on one
country though?
howbloom:: the return
of the middle ages
pctacitus:: tell us about it
Jeremy1952:: The norms of civilization do not
inculde atacking foreign countries
howbloom:: hang on while
I read what you've all said, there's more on why
this is a necessary war
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: they do now, jer
Jeremy1952:: Yes.. return to the middle ages...
and Bush is leading the charge
howbloom:: we can't just
impose regime change
Jeremy1952:: All this jibber jabber about god
in every speach
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: Bush's christian hubris
frightens me...it's not just the
hawkishness, it's the "God on our side"
thing.
Chris OConnor:: Howard - wow
howbloom:: here's how
the evolution of ever larger social forms of organization
work
howbloom:: they come together ironically on the
basis of a monopoly of force
howbloom:: the nation state for example
howbloom:: originally evolved
Chris OConnor:: ok
howbloom:: because of
a new megaweapon
howbloom:: the cannon
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: how about a new organism
transcending nations?
howbloom:: and because
monarchs were able to
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: I feel like I belong
to something multinational and organic
howbloom:: monopolize
cannonry
Chris OConnor:: How could they do that?
howbloom:: as a consequence
the kings could batter down the previously impregnable
walls
cinnamon321 joined
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: how do you monopolize
bioweapons?
Jeremy1952:: That's part of it. But nation states
are inherently more productive than their predescessors
howbloom:: of nobles
who had their own private armies
Jeremy1952:: I think the weapons follow the organization,
not the other way 'round
howbloom:: monopoly of
power led to a larger peace
Chris OConnor:: Howard - you must read like a
maniac to be so well educated in so many subjects.
I suggest you join BookTalk
Chris OConnor:: Hey cinnamon
cinnamon321:: hi
howbloom:: lemme continue
Chris OConnor:: ok
howbloom:: it's a long
thought
Chris OConnor:: ok
howbloom:: we're where
Europe was in 1905
howbloom:: the Kaiser was working like hell
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: I suspect centralization
of power will break down at some
point and an emergent, transcendent "species
identity" will come up
howbloom:: to take the
huge economic power his country had built up
howbloom:: and turn it into weaponry that would
allow him to outdo
howbloom:: the empire-making machinery
howbloom:: he'd seen at the age of four
howbloom:: when he went to visit his grandmother
howbloom:: queen victoria
Sephirah Geburah:: Howard - With all your jaw
dropping credentials, have you ever considered
joining any sort of position in government so
you can change the beast from the inside?
howbloom:: but his weaponry
would be more advanced
howbloom:: than what grandma had
Chris OConnor:: Good question Sephirah
howbloom:: because his
nation was sprinitng ahead
howbloom:: the bottom line is this
howbloom:: if Europe had flattened a bit of Germany
in 1905
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: I'd rather be a musician
than a politician. People respect musicians
howbloom:: the war that
entailed would have been over in six months
howbloom:: instead, there were peace movements
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: is that an argument
for overkill though?
howbloom:: cries for
negotiatiation
howbloom:: and when the war came, it lasted what
seemed like forever
Chris OConnor:: yes, it sure did
Jeremy1952:: Howard, when iraq left its borders,
it was squashed like a bug
howbloom:: instead of
losing 200,000 lives--a terrible, terrible thing
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: in hindsight, killing
hitler at birth would have been a moral act...
howbloom:: the world
lost over 20 million
Jeremy1952:: And if it tries "empire buliding"
again, it will be squashed again.
howbloom:: over 19 million
lives could have been saved
howbloom:: if there had been a preemptive war
Jeremy1952:: There is no question that Hitler
should not have been appeased, when he began to
attack.
howbloom:: the same thing
came up in 1936
Jeremy1952:: I don't want to live in a world of
"preemptive wars", howard.
howbloom:: when Hitler
took over Czechoslovakia
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: I worry that we're
going to apply "brute force" to a problem
requiring finesse
Chris OConnor:: Bloom - I see your logic...what
you are calling for takes strength and foresight
howbloom:: the world
cried out for diplomacy
howbloom:: for peace
Jeremy1952:: It is the meta-norms of civilzation
that ultimately improve humanity
ZombieHatesYou joined
Chris OConnor:: Hey Zombie
howbloom:: for salving
germany's wounds, addressing its legitimate concerns
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: yeah, game theory gets
complex here..it might not work to apply lessons
from the past in a linear way to the present...
howbloom:: in 1936 hitler
was bluffing
pctacitus:: This is basic game theory for politics
howbloom:: he didn't
have the military force to back up his deeds
Chris OConnor:: Michael - I'm sure there are similarities
ZombieHatesYou:: Hey
howbloom:: he had, instead,
pacifists and peace movements
howbloom:: and a propaganda machine
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: I don't see this as
nazi germany...it's more like a tentacled monster
howbloom:: if the west
had taken him on
pctacitus:: but there's always someone irrational
who wants war
Jeremy1952:: Exactly. And by running "god"
up his flagpole, Bush is defecting from the game
howbloom:: in 1936 it
would have been a two month war
ZachSylvanus joined
howbloom:: instead it
was a war that killed over 20 million
ZachSylvanus:: sorry I'm late
pctacitus:: even though you gain more from peaceful
cooperation
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: do you think we'll
have to bomb north korea too?
Jeremy1952:: So, who else attacks whom, once we
open the floodgates?
howbloom:: preemptive
war, that hateful phrase
Chris OConnor:: Pctactitus - True, but this war
doesn't seem to be such a wat
Chris OConnor:: Hey Zach
howbloom:: once again
could have saved tens of millions of lives
howbloom:: this time around it won't be so easy
Jeremy1952:: You have just justified attackign
anyone you think is really reaaly bad...
which means that the arabs are entirley justified
howbloom:: the weapons
will be nuclear
Jeremy1952:: in attacking the US and isreael,
right?
howbloom:: they already
are
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: I think our morale
will be greatly damaged if we do things in the
wrong way...it's not just power that is a factor,
it's what forms of power we can accept using with
a clean conscience
pctacitus:: This war resembles what Phillip Bobbit
calls the Long War
Chris OConnor:: Yes, I'd like your opinion on
N. Korea...I am rather comfortable in our ability
to deal with Iraq.
Jeremy1952:: Becuase they think we are really
really bad...
howbloom:: someone has
to assert a primacy, a monopoly of power
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: to me, it's like a
cancer. You can't cut out the tumor...you have
to use something subtl
howbloom:: or we will
have nuclear weapons hurled at us from Pakistan,
from
howbloom:: Libya, from
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: saddam is more like
a tumor, but al qaeda is something else
pctacitus:: it will keep going until all opposing
ideas are crushed completely
howbloom:: Korea
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: but how does asserting
power prevent anything?
howbloom:: and enough
nuclear weapons being tossed around in the Mediterranean
area
NaddiaAoC joined
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: if biological weapons
become cheap and available to groups without states?
Jeremy1952:: Yes. Bush had skilllfully distracted
milllions from the fact that he is powerless against
the real enemy
Chris OConnor:: Someone has to play the role of
the Alpha male...in the pecking order
howbloom:: to wipe out
humanity
NaddiaAoC:: Hi folks
howbloom:: yes
Chris OConnor:: Hey Cheryl
howbloom:: the alpha
male is the key to social peace
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: I see everyone reacting
to an apocalyptic fantasy and accelerating it
in the process
Chris OConnor:: Bloom - I think I'm in agreement
with you
Jeremy1952:: So do what israel did... we have
intelligence that they are building a breeder
reactor? Bomb the damn thing
howbloom:: and he uses
force and persuasion and caring to win his place
howbloom:: another example, two
Sephirah Geburah:: Oh! Michaelangelo.. Excellent
last comment...
Jeremy1952:: Ah, persuasion. Now that would be
nice
howbloom:: to assert
his primacy, Alexander the Great utterly destroyed
a city or two
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: so do you think the
US, by playing alpha male, can inspire Arab alpha
males to suppress terrorism in their own countries?
howbloom:: it was hateful
howbloom:: morally disgusting
Chris OConnor:: Howard - But the Alpha male must
have a well-defined code of ethics
howbloom:: but it worked
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: there was a movie about
the president destroying Baghdad to send a signal
howbloom:: and Pericles
ushered in the Golden Age of Athens with an atrocity
Jeremy1952:: We already destroyed "a city
or two", Howard.
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: but I'm not sure we'd
be safe after that. States would avoid using nukes...but
individual groups?
pctacitus:: Deterrence, good flick
howbloom:: flattening
a city that tried to wiggle out of the Athenian
league
Jeremy1952:: Remember Hiroshima and Nagasaki?
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: it might split the
american culture in half
howbloom:: now we have
to do that not because
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: and cause a civil war
here
Jeremy1952:: The firebombing of Dresden?
howbloom:: Iraq is a
huge menace, it's not
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: I think if we used
nukes against a city, it would split our society
down the middle
Chris OConnor:: Michael - I think what Howard
believes is that we must behave like the lead
dog and demand our way...and self police our behaviors
howbloom:: but because
we have to do something that sounds childish and
stupid
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: I understand the theory
howbloom:: we have to
set an example
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: it's something I've
thought about before
howbloom:: an example
Kim Jung Il
howbloom:: will pay attention to
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: we have to be the craziest
nigga on the block.
Chris OConnor:: Jeremy - this is true
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: that's the theory
howbloom:: an example
Osama will pay attention to
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: how does this work
in the inner city though?
howbloom:: that Quaddafi
will pay attention to
Jeremy1952:: Oh yea, Osama's paying attention.
Chris OConnor:: Howard - exactly...he is scaring
the hell out of me
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: the math might be similar,
use power in gangs as a model
howbloom:: the messagi
is this--disarm or we will disarm you
Jeremy1952:: Like the attack on Afghanistan made
him stop, right?
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: what if we can't find
you and you're suicidal?
howbloom:: ok, I have
been so busy typing I haven't been able to read
Chris OConnor:: Jeremy - they forced him to run...they
have disempowered him to a degree
ZachSylvanus:: I'm tempted to think that we don't
have much to worry about from Korea, because of
China
Jeremy1952:: And the message to ther rest of the
world is: we can no longer be trusted to play
by the rules
howbloom:: give me two
minutes to read what you've said, ok?
Sephirah Geburah:: Everybody take 2!! Go get a
soda or some water!
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: sure
pctacitus:: ok
Chris OConnor:: Bloom - sounds good
Chris OConnor:: This will make an awesome transcript
Chris OConnor:: LOL Sephirah
pctacitus:: a little disjointed though
Jeremy1952:: We responded to his attack; we took
out ten of his people for every one of ours
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: When you're done reading,
I'll share a flash poem I made with words from
Global Brain...you have the flash plugin?
Chris OConnor:: I am very afraid of N. Korea right
now.
Chris OConnor:: Michael - OMG
Glory Matthews joined
ZachSylvanus:: I don't believe China will allow
N. Korea to do anything drastic
Jeremy1952:: Idont' think he will learn a single
thing from the US attacking a soverign nation,
except maybe that he was right
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: I've decided to be
afraid of everything. It seems prudent
howbloom:: i'm afraid
of korea too
Chris OConnor:: Hey Glory - you're late. Please
stand in the corner for 30 minutes. Thanks.
howbloom:: yes thye poem,
i do have flash
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: www.soulaquarium.net/art/bloom/
Johnny Neuron:: My take is North Korea is just
saber-rattling
Chris OConnor:: N. Korea is behaving irrationally...without
provocation
Chris OConnor:: Johnny - I sure hope
pctacitus:: game theory again
Johnny Neuron:: They don't want to be blasted
to the stone age
Glory Matthews:: Chris, pfffft! You should be
honored, I just got back from the hospital.
Jeremy1952:: Without provoction? I hardly think
so
ZachSylvanus:: Without provocation?
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: read the other day
that Daniel Ellsberg was a game theorist when
he worked at RAND
Jeremy1952:: First of all, we promised not to
demonize his country
Jeremy1952:: then asshole Bush comes out with
the "axis of evil" slap in the face
Chris OConnor:: Michael - very cool!
ZachSylvanus:: The agreement was, they shut down
their nuclear reactors, we send them fuel.
ZachSylvanus:: We stopped sending them fuel
howbloom:: who made that
poem--ah
howbloom:: michael
Jeremy1952:: Then we prepare for a war of agression
against iraq; what are the other nations
ZombieHatesYou:: That was very cool, Huahua.
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: it's my fault
ZombieHatesYou:: Err...Michael.
howbloom:: it is, excuse
my language, utterly fucking gorgeous
howbloom:: m8i
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: thanks zomb
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: thanks howard
Jeremy1952:: who we , rather bush, deliberately
insults supposed to make of that?
howbloom:: michael, what
do you do for a lving?
Johnny Neuron:: Jeremy: true, but I think NK has
gone a little farther than Bush in terms of propaganda
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: I'm a budding web designer
howbloom:: I want to
do more things like that myself
Chris OConnor:: Jeremy - Yes, this is what triggered
the N. Koreans to do what they're doing...but
it is irrational. Bush had no idea they would
act so crazy
howbloom:: I've turned
the whole history of the cosmos into poetry
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: waiting for my girlfriend
to move here from sydney so we can start a business
Chris OConnor:: LOL Bloom
Jeremy1952:: Law of unindtended consequences
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: howard--I'd be happy
to help you out with flash
pctacitus:: NK is more like Sparta
Jeremy1952:: A good reason to be cautious
pctacitus:: closed off
howbloom:: several musicians
are talking about making it into music--Joan Jett
and David Was
Johnny Neuron:: NK has a very long history of
doing this sort of thing
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: my email is on my site
if you ever want to contact me
Jeremy1952:: How , by the way, are they acting
crazy?
howbloom:: and I want
to do a Big Bang Tango stage show
Chris OConnor:: Jeremy - yes
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: I'd like to see what
you're talking about howard
Chris OConnor:: Jeremy - hind sight is always
20/20
howbloom:: what you've
done, michael, is a step in that direction
howbloom:: a very powerful step
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: sounds interesting...it
reminds me of a book I read a while back, but
I forgot the title
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: thank you
howbloom:: have you seen,
no of course you haven't its private
Jeremy1952:: We are threatening Iraq; we put NK
and iraq in the same cateogory; they are preparing
an nuclear defense
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: that's the sort of
thing I'd like to do more of
Jeremy1952:: against a nuclear power that has
gone mad.
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: lol
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: well then
Johnny Neuron:: Is it defense or provocation?
Jeremy1952:: It is the U.S. that is acting "crazy"
howbloom:: howardbloom.net/attraction_repulsion
howbloom:: ?
Chris OConnor:: To those that don't know, Howard
Bloom is famous in the music industry and worked
with Rolling Stone magazine and stars like Prince
and Michael Jackson
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: hey, it worked this
time
Johnny Neuron:: Sending missles over the ocean
on the day of the S Korean presidential inauguration
ZachSylvanus:: The thing that concerns me most
about this series of wars on evil is the patriot
acts
Johnny Neuron:: Virtually shooting down our fighter
jet
howbloom:: well, I was
often in the offices of Rolling Stone but I didn't
work for the magazine
Chris OConnor:: Zach - explain
Jeremy1952:: Well, it isn't hindsight yet; the
war hasn't started yet. Forsight: we are fucking
up the world
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: I had an acid trip
in my 20's that would have made a great movie.
It had science rap as the sountrack
ZachSylvanus:: The patriot acts are ostensibly
to protect our freedoms
ZachSylvanus:: And ourselves
howbloom:: our best alley
right now in defending our freedoms from the patriot
act
howbloom:: is a man who has bush by the balls
Chris OConnor:: Jeremy - I disagree, but sure
hope I'm not wrong.
howbloom:: Pat Robertson,
my old nemesis
Chris OConnor:: Pat deserves to be in prison
ZachSylvanus:: The Patriot Act 2 involves overturning
Katz vs.....the federal government, I think
Johnny Neuron:: Really Howard? How so?
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: just tell people Ashcroft
ordered a buttload of microchips
ZachSylvanus:: er, think
Sephirah Geburah:: - Howard - If you could give
one piece of advice for someone seriously entering
the music industry, what would it be?
Chris OConnor:: anyone who dumbs down the general
population is a criminal
howbloom:: Pat Robertson
made two key statements a month or two ago
howbloom:: one
Jeremy1952:: That's the other thing that scares
the shit out of me; suppose we win the peace as
well as the war... but have
howbloom:: look at the
violence in the Koran, stop papering it over
pctacitus:: arrest all the teachers then
howbloom:: and two
Jeremy1952:: turned into a theocracy by then
cinnamon321:: I agree Chris.
NaddiaAoC:: Yeah, the general population is dumb
enough.
howbloom:: our civil
rights have never been in greater danger
Chris OConnor:: Jeremy - Yes, I am worried about
that too
ZachSylvanus:: Howard, that's not really a viable
argument
Johnny Neuron:: Look at all the violence in the
Bible
Jeremy1952:: If we destroy our liberties to win
a war, what have we won?
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: the bit of poetry at
the end of your attraction page is verra nice
howbloom:: we must protect
them for all we're worth
Chris OConnor:: Cinnamon
howbloom:: yes, the bible
is one of the most violent books around
ZachSylvanus:: We can't argue that they're evil
because of their bible
Chris OConnor:: Bloom - I very much agree
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: I want an army of mimes
at my disposal
ZachSylvanus:: Ours isn't any better
pctacitus:: there is a book on the Battles of
the Bible
cinnamon321:: The general population is ignorant,
not stupid
howbloom:: so is the
founding story of western civilization--the Iliad
and the Odyssey
Chris OConnor:: lol Michael
howbloom:: and so is
the founding story of inida
howbloom:: the Mahavarata
Chris OConnor:: Bloom - I've only read some of
both
pctacitus:: don't forget Hesiod Howard
howbloom:: all are filled
with genocide
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: how do you maintain
control in a fluid chaotic system?
howbloom:: with the demonization
of other human beings
Johnny Neuron:: Howard: how do you feel about
the posturing the US is taking in
relation to the other great powers such as Germany,
France and Russia?
Chris OConnor:: Julian James posits that our species
lacked consciousness at the time of both pieces
Jeremy1952:: I've found cascade works well, Michael
howbloom:: systems are
hierarchical at every level of the cosmos
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: I want to get at the
root of projecting evil in all people...
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: jeremy--explain
howbloom:: animate and
pre-animate
Chris OConnor:: yes
ZombieHatesYou:: I'm quite hestitant to call Pat
Roberston an ally of mine. I think he's got other
things moving him...Things I'd personally not
want around me.
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: what cascade are we
initiating exactly?
ZachSylvanus:: afk a few minutes....
howbloom:: and right
now we need what some of you guys have said
Jeremy1952:: To control a chaotic fluid system.
Pour in a little cascade.
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: the end-timers scare
me in general
Chris OConnor:: what was that?
howbloom:: the craziest
niggah on the block
Chris OConnor:: hmmm
howbloom:: the alpha
male
Chris OConnor:: ahh
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: cascade bleach? lol
howbloom:: on a global
basis
Chris OConnor:: explain Howard
howbloom:: so we can
continue an incredible progress we've made
NaddiaAoC:: Me too, Michael.
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: when rock stars rule
the world, we'll be fine
howbloom:: via cell phones
and the WWW
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: politicians trying
to be rock stars doesn't work for me
howbloom:: we are so
global it's amazing
howbloom:: and we're about to become even more
so
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: I got a book called
Smart Mobs...need to read that
Chris OConnor:: Howard - if we could conquer the
barbarians our species could do incredible things...ohh..and
also conquer mysticism
howbloom:: my friends
who marched for peace a week ago
cinnamon321:: *laughs at the thought of a politician
trying to be a rock star*
Jeremy1952:: Yea! David Bowie for president! Vote
for Clinton 'cause he plays the sax
howbloom:: were amazed
and exalted
howbloom:: by the fact that they were marching
simultaneously in 60 cities
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: cinnamon, they DO.
Politicians use PR consultants who study what
makes entertainers popular...then they apply that
to themselves.
Chris OConnor:: Howard - mob mentality
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: nodding at howard
howbloom:: they were
living off the fruit that hierarchical violence
produces
howbloom:: peace
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: that's the premise
of Smart Mobs
howbloom:: relax the
hierarchy too greatly
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: groups organizing spontaneously
NaddiaAoC:: LOL Jeremy
Chris OConnor:: Bloom - wow...excellent point
howbloom:: and we will
have an end to cell phones the www electricity
howbloom:: social organization
cinnamon321:: Michael, I know, I was merely having
a thought of the stereotypical poltician in kiss
garb singing.
howbloom:: stores and
groceries
howbloom:: let me tell you the worst case scenario
howbloom:: or one of them
pctacitus:: ok
howbloom:: oki?
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: I was wondering for
a while if the species has some kind of spontaneous
organizing program that causes a breaking open
of the tribal identity and a larger sense of family
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: ok
howbloom:: you are Osama
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: lol
ZombieHatesYou:: I knew Michael was Osama.
Chris OConnor:: Howard - I'm in complete agreement.
I'm a bit of a pessimist though...and fear we
will never succeed in controlling the rampant
idiocy of the masses. I feel our downfall is inevitable
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: no, don't go blowing
anything up for me thanks
howbloom:: you know that
you are building your stardom, your influence
howbloom:: via pr
ladyfractal joined
ladyfractal:: Good evening all!
howbloom:: and you know
that the biggest pr stunt you've pulled
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: hi fractal
Johnny Neuron:: I tend to agree Chris
ZombieHatesYou:: Hey Frac
howbloom:: is the destruction
of the world trade center
cinnamon321:: hey frac
howbloom:: ok?
pctacitus:: yes
howbloom:: following
this?
pctacitus:: yes
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: he wants a revolution
in pakistan
Chris OConnor:: ok
ladyfractal:: Hey Michael! Hey Zombie.
Chris OConnor:: I'm with ya
howbloom:: your next
step is this
Chris OConnor:: Hey Ladyfractal
Jeremy1952:: Howard is expoinding "worst
case scenario", fractal
ladyfractal:: Hi Chris.
howbloom:: nuke twelve
major cities in the united states
ladyfractal:: thanks jeremy.
NaddiaAoC:: Hi Lady
howbloom:: basically
eliminate the usa
Chris OConnor:: Howard - we would be in the Dark
Ages overnight
howbloom:: turn it into
a glowing wasteland to set an example
howbloom:: to show that you are Osama the Great
howbloom:: that God is all powerful
Chris OConnor:: And this "worst case scenario"
is a very real possibility
pctacitus:: that would crash the world economy
overnight
howbloom:: and that nonbelievers
should tremble at your feet
Chris OConnor:: pctactus - very true
Johnny Neuron:: Israeli newspapers reported this
morning that Osama bin Laden has been captured
pctacitus:: kill tens of millions
howbloom:: you do not
have to worry about nuclear fallout or nuclear
winter
howbloom:: why?
Sephirah Geburah:: Ha! That could never happen!
We where promised to have a missle defense shield!
(hehe... Yes, im being sarcastic)
ladyfractal:: johnny: that hasn't been confirmed
anyplace
Jeremy1952:: if he could have done it, he would
have done it. No way he would have settled for
jet fuel if he could have gotten hold of nukes
howbloom:: because you
have Allah on your side
Johnny Neuron:: lady: true
howbloom:: and to quote
one of Osama's alleys, this earth
Chris OConnor:: Johnny - Hmm...I'll believe that
wheh I see his head on a stake
howbloom:: is a mere
speck of dust in Allah's eye
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: Alternatively: you
are a fundamentalist Christian with the best of
motives...things get sticky and you feel compelled
to use a nuclear first strike...
howbloom:: it is expendable
pctacitus:: if you die you go to paradise anyway
howbloom:: next step
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: as believe the right
wing christians...God will give us a new earth
pctacitus:: right?
Chris OConnor:: Howard - You're making me want
to read the Koran/Quran
howbloom::
in Islam these days the big subject of conversation
is the reconquest of Europe
Chris OConnor:: ...just to understand
howbloom:: you see, God
promised that Islam would triumph
howbloom:: in two major places
Jeremy1952:: Yea, the difference, as Michael implied,
is that Bush actually has nukes
ladyfractal:: howard-- how dangerous do you think
it is that all three monotheistic faiths seem
to be driving all-out for war and *at least* two
of those three have nukes?
howbloom:: Constantinople
and Rome
Chris OConnor:: Howard - and the Koran clearly
states that conquest of infidels is Islams destiny
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: book religions really
poisoned the planet...I keep telling them it's
idolatry...but they just...don't...lisetn
AvatarofPower joined
Chris OConnor:: Avatar!
Chris OConnor:: Welcome
howbloom:: it took 700
years before the prediction about constantinople
fell, but allah came through, right?
ladyfractal:: michael: no, of course not, they're
too busy reading their holy books
AvatarofPower:: hiya chris
howbloom:: and now allah
is bound to deliver Rome
howbloom:: which means all of Europe
howbloom:: nuke the us and
howbloom:: europe will capitulate
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: this allah character
needs therapy
DocNancy:: Howard, you need to write all this
down and publish it.
howbloom:: it will beg
for surivival
Jeremy1952:: Osama is one dangerous sonofabtich.
Terrorists are an infection on the planet. No
argument there... so
pctacitus:: we need to pull a St Jerome and we
write the religious texts then
howbloom:: and be willing
to live in justic and purity
howbloom:: according to god's law sharia
Jeremy1952:: we should be fighting terrorists,
not picking a target we think we can hit, and
ignoring the enemy.
howbloom:: and as part
of an islamic imperium that's global
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: women will be forced
to veil their nipples in public (
Johnny Neuron:: Howard: not all Muslims would
agree with these tactics
howbloom:: here's another
important bit of Osama's thinking
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: Girls Gone Wild will
be a thing of the past...
Johnny Neuron:: Some are far more liberal and
peaceful than that
howbloom:: nation states
are a barbarous western creation
Johnny Neuron:: Dare I say most
howbloom:: god says that
the umma is universal
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: empathy is universal
howbloom:: it is a continuous
planet
howbloom:: a planet without boundaries
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: it is a conscious planet
Chris OConnor:: Jeremy - don't you think Saddam
has something planned with his WoMD?
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: osama is on to something
ladyfractal:: howard: Oh I see where this is going...which
means a Pax Islam
howbloom:: living under
God's own law
Jeremy1952:: Don't know, Chris.
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: chris, a trapped animal
will do some crazy things
howbloom:: national boundaries
separating afghanistan, egypt, syria, malaysia,
these are artificial slices
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: I'm wondering if Bush
is unconsciously trying to provoke attacks against
us
howbloom:: designed to
weakine the ummah
howbloom:: in other worlds Osama
Jeremy1952:: I think the message should be this:
use one, try to use one, and you get slapped like
a mosquito
Johnny Neuron:: I think the key might be for the
US to allign with the more moderate side of the
Muslim world
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: use a nuke to kill
a mosquito and you may face impeachment
howbloom:: osama's interpretation
of Islam makes the world one global caliphate
howbloom:: Osama, the wireless warrior
pctacitus:: what moderate side?
Jeremy1952:: But the message that we attack regardless?
howbloom:: has a clear,
clear vision
howbloom:: of a global new world order
pctacitus:: Where is it?
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: I believe in a species
unconscious program that will overrule the divisions
of nations and religions...but whether that can
stop destruction is another thing
pctacitus:: I haven't seen it.
Sephirah Geburah:: Damnit... Why in the hell cant
we have people like Howard for President?!?!?
(sigh)
Johnny Neuron:: There is definately a moderate
portion of Muslims who are opposed to terrorism
howbloom:: so we have
the choices of living under an islamic hegemony,
one in which most of us here would be dead
Johnny Neuron:: I've talked with some of them
howbloom:: and pax amercana
Chris OConnor:: Jeremy - Saddam is a sick bastard
who has lined up his own people and gunned them
down....and poisoneed them
Jeremy1952:: Oh my god, Sephirah, no way!
Johnny Neuron:: Some are US allies
howbloom:: or a pax sinica
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: the limbic systems
of the world are feeding back
NaddiaAoC:: LOL Sephirah
ladyfractal:: howard: Laid out like that, it certainly
seems to be a very clear vision. I have a question
for you...
Sephirah Geburah:: hehe
pctacitus:: like Saudi arabia?
howbloom:: and those
of us who try to stop this war as we did in 1905
Jeremy1952:: Yes, Chris, this is true.
Jeremy1952:: And?
howbloom:: and in 1936
howbloom:: will have blood on our hands
Chris OConnor:: Jeremy - we owe it to the Iraqi
people to remove the tyrant
Jeremy1952:: Oh bullshit.
Johnny Neuron:: So you are for a war with Iraq
Howard?
howbloom:: the blood
of between 200 million and six billion human beings
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: that's a moral inversion
though...the ones who kill are heroes and the
ones who don't kill are killers...
howbloom:: that's my
speech, now let me read what you
howbloom:: 've been saying
ladyfractal:: howard: okay
Chris OConnor:: Ladyfractal - what was the question?
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: what if we trigger
something just as bad as what we're trying to
avoid? we'll have blood on our hands then too
Jeremy1952:: There are dictators all over the
world; we've defended much worse, time and again.
howbloom:: I know Jeremy
is going to totally disagree
NaddiaAoC:: Chris: Are you saving this chat periodically?
Chris OConnor:: Micahel - should we freeze out
of fear?
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: what if the lessons
we're learning from history fail to work in a
global system that approaches viscosity?
Chris OConnor:: Cheryl - yep, no worries
ladyfractal:: chris: well, my first question has
to do with the three monotheistic religions, two
of which are *confirmed* members of the nuclear
club goign to war.
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: linear thinking may
not be the trick here
NaddiaAoC:: Ok good
howbloom:: To answer
Johnny's question yes, bring on this war as rapidly
as possible
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: we may be playing chess
on a Go board
howbloom:: despite the
fact that I hate war
cinnamon321:: according to mass media reports
i see that iraqis do not like saddams leadership,
but since he is a dictator many of them fear to
speak out unless they leave the country. perhaps
if we do not go to war they will overthrow saddam
themselves.
Johnny Neuron:: I agree
howbloom:: no killing
of a single human being is justified
ZachSylvanus:: back, sorry
howbloom:: Saddam is
a distraction, an example, that's all
Jeremy1952:: To say "war on iraq is good
for iraqis" ignores the little detail of
the 100,000 or more of them who will DIE in the
war.
ladyfractal:: chris: My second question has to
do with with people in the West not understanding
that Islam is a *fundamentally* different culture/civilization
and not one most of us would feel good living
under.
Johnny Neuron:: But I feel that the US must do
it's best to not make this a "war against
Muslims"
DocNancy:: yes, but how does oil enter into all
this, and it does.
Jeremy1952:: If they wanted to die, they could
oppose Saddam themselves
ladyfractal:: chris: but I'll hold that one
Johnny Neuron:: Boundries must be set; demarcations
made
howbloom:: hang on a
second, let's discuss the iraqis who will di
Chris OConnor:: Cinnamon - the problem is every
time a coup is attempted Saddam makes such an
example of the perpetrators that the whole nation
lives in mortal fear of even appearing to be anti-Saddam
ZombieHatesYou:: Perhaps I am not following this
like I should be, but I'm not sure how bringing
on the war with Iraq as fast as possible will
in turn harm Osama's 'vision.'
howbloom:: saddam has
deliberately put his weapons under schools and
hospitals
howbloom:: one story out of England says that
he hired
AvatarofPower:: Jeremy.... how could they possibly
stand up to the current iraqi regime
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: so will the arab world
blame us for civilian deaths?
howbloom:: western experts
to build a subway system under baghdad and is
using it to
Chris OConnor:: Jeremy - But 100,000 dead now
to save 4 million in the long run. I'm not saying
I agree, but I think this is Howards point
ladyfractal:: michael: you *bet* they will
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: will the iraqis really
be "dancing in the street"?
Jeremy1952:: Well, they can't. I'm not saying
they should. I'm saying, they'll be just as dead
if we kill them
howbloom:: shuttle his
weapons of mass destruction around on trains
ZombieHatesYou:: Of course, Michael...We're the
Big Bad Guy...
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: Chris--but how accurate
IS that math?
Johnny Neuron:: What are the chances of the US
using nuclear weapons against Iraq?
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: will we become the
evil we fear? will our culture survive that?
AvatarofPower:: very, very, very, very slim, Johnny
howbloom:: a contact
of mine in the State Department, an Islam expert
who has spent most of his adult life in Islamic
nations
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: moral ambiguity broke
a lot of heads open in the 60's
Jeremy1952:: The thing is, chris, the 100,000
dead now is almost a sure thing; the assertiion
that less willdie in the long run
Chris OConnor:: Michael - Approximately 87.3%
of all statistics are made up on the spot
howbloom:: says that
the bomb shelter filled with civilians we devastated
cinnamon321:: lol Chris
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