connected: ezChat version 0.49

Chris OConnor:: Hey Michael

MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: Hi Chris

Chris OConnor:: Howdy

Chris OConnor:: So what is your estimate? How many do you think will show up?

Chris OConnor:: I am hoping for at least 15 total

MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: dunno

quibbit joined

Chris OConnor:: It sure would be a bummer if Howard Bloom didn't come

Chris OConnor:: Hello Quibbit

MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: hi quibbit

Chris OConnor:: Oh no....Quibbit is a spy and cannot talk to us

MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: maybe quibbit is Howard

quibbit:: Hello.

Chris OConnor:: Nah, Howard said he registered as "HowBloom"

Quibbit:: I'm Howard's assistant.

Chris OConnor:: Hello Quibbit

Quibbit:: My name is Stephen.

Chris OConnor:: And how did you hear about this chat, Quibbit?

MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: Hi Stephen

Chris OConnor:: Welcome Stephen

Quibbit:: Howard should be here in just a few minutes

Chris OConnor:: Ahh - is this Stephen Howard's assistant?

Quibbit:: yeah.

Chris OConnor:: Yes, we talked on the phone. Good to "see" you. You are much taller than I expected.

Quibbit:: Just wanted to be around at least the first few minutes to make sure everything is going okay.

Chris OConnor:: I don't blame you.

MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: You're the guy who steps in if the group tries to lynch Howard?

Chris OConnor:: Does Howard type about average speed?

Chris OConnor:: Michael - that ruins our plan

MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: oh yeah, I wasn't supposed to tell!

MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: sorry, sorry

Chris OConnor:: You are forgiven

MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: thanks

Quibbit:: I think so, maybe a bit faster if he's really going.

Chris OConnor:: I'm good like that

MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: that means I'm in the "in group'

Chris OConnor:: Stephen - well, we have no real format. I think Howard has enough formal engagements. I hope this is enjoyable for him.

MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: oh no...William Shatner is going do another album

Quibbit:: More people likely to show up at the last few minutes?
xilog joined

Quibbit:: Yeah, it should be fun for him.

MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: hi xilog

xilog:: hi there

Chris OConnor:: Stephen - Yes, there should be many more people coming over the next 15 minutes

Chris OConnor:: Hey Xilog!

MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: "A brutality that speaks to us through the animals in our brain" is a nice line

MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: Howard should make poetry out of some of his lines in Lucifer

Chris OConnor:: Yes, Howard is a metaphorical master

Chris OConnor:: That is his marketing genius shining through

Quibbit:: I think that he has something like that in the works. I think actually there's been some talk of a musical adaptation.

Chris OConnor:: Stephen - are you serious?

MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: Superorganisticexpialidocious!

MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: could be a brutal remake of mary poppins

Chris OConnor:: LOL

Chris OConnor:: Ok, no more egg nog for you Michael

Quibbit:: Yeah.. Actually.. I'll see if I can give you the link to an mp3 someone did of a show he was in.

Quibbit:: I think he's getting on now.

Bugteach joined

Chris OConnor:: Thanks Stephen

Chris OConnor:: Hello Bugteach

MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: hi bugteach

Bugteach:: hello room

Chris OConnor:: Let me guess - you are a biology teacher?

Chris OConnor:: Stephen - Howard doesn't sing does he?

Bugteach:: top of the evening to you all

Chris OConnor:: and to you too Bug

Chris OConnor:: Where are you from? ...and how did you hear about this chat?

MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: sings "bloody bloody genes, playing bloody scenes.."

Chris OConnor:: Is that your own song Michael - it is lovely

Bugteach:: Howard informed me by way of chris

MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: just made it up

Chris OConnor:: I would love to hear about all of Howard’s experiences with the music
industry too - but no time for that tonight

Chris OConnor:: Bug - Ahh - so you got my email I imagine

Bugteach:: yep

Chris OConnor:: Michael - you are quite skilled

MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: I wanna hear about where Michael Jackson fits into the superorganism

stevepainter joined

MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: hi Steve

Chris OConnor:: Steve!

stevepainter:: hey

Chris OConnor:: Good to see ya

stevepainter:: I just said to my wife that Chris might be freaking if I don't sign in soon

Chris OConnor:: Bug - where do you live?

Chris OConnor:: Steve - good point

Bugteach:: Gary Indiana

Chris OConnor:: Bug - Ahh well good to have you with us tonight.

stevepainter:: oh, that makes me think of The Music Man

MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: "The slightest slip from the true path, they feel, can send Satan's minions writing through every vein of their body."

Bugteach:: Michael Jackson’s hatching point

Bugteach:: thanks for the invite

MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: writhing

howbloom joined

MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: hi Howard!

howbloom:: hi

Johnny Neuron joined

moose1567 joined

howbloom:: glad to see you

Chris OConnor:: Howard! Welcome

howbloom:: aha!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

stevepainter:: hello all

moose1567:: hi room

Chris OConnor:: Hey Moose - and Johnny

howbloom:: chris, thanks for having me

Jeremy1952 joined

Chris OConnor:: Howard - it is our pleasure

howbloom:: Steve, moose, Johnny

Johnny Neuron:: Hello everyone...and especially Mr. Bloom!

Chris OConnor:: And there is Jeremy

moose1567:: Mr. bloom

howbloom:: it's good to meet you and Jeremy too

Chris OConnor:: So everyone hangs outside the front door waiting for the last minute I see

(on the forum's page there is a counter for how many total people are on the site, and at this point in the chat session the site is filled with people that have yet to enter the chat room)

Jeremy1952:: Hi Howard, thank you !

howbloom:: any interesting things you've been discussing?

Bugteach:: hello Howard thanks for inviting me

Jeremy1952:: I was fiddling with the colors

howbloom:: any interesting questions?

MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: I'm interested in your thoughts on the current rash of middle beastliness

howbloom:: my son Walter says this chat process is cool

howbloom:: oi vey

Jeremy1952:: Middle beastliness? What does that mean?

howbloom:: ok, what is your opinion of what's going on in the middle east?

MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: the Middle Beast

MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: i.e. Iraq

Chris OConnor:: yes, I am interested in the Middle east situation too and I was intrigued by your views on the "barbaric" nature of Islam

howbloom:: why did we pick Iraq as a target?

Chris OConnor:: My opinion is you hit the nail on the head

MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: I was reminded of Lucifer (The Lucifer Principle - authored by Howard Bloom) when the outbreak of patriotism happened after 911

Chris OConnor:: hmmm

howbloom:: militant Islam has put us at the center of its sights

howbloom:: its gun sights

MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: got the feeling America was becoming a militant organism

howbloom:: it's targeted us as an enemy

Chris OConnor:: I am personally concerned that our choosing Iraq has too much to do with Bush Jr. making up for his fathers mistakes

howbloom:: war is built into our biology

MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: I worry about Bush's use of religious language..."evil" etc

Chris OConnor:: I totally see that

howbloom:: it's been with us for 3.5 billion years

stevepainter:: I don't know, I thought that Christianity among others was just as barbaric - economic prosperity and societal development have just progressed faster for us

howbloom:: so when we're attacked by others who follow our common instinctual heritage

howbloom:: our military instincts are aroused

Jeremy1952:: Perhaps. But biology teaches me that cooperation is ultimately more powerful than competition

MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: is there any force in biology to compensate for our need to destroy? Or will the world just fall apart as WMD become available to small groups?

Chris OConnor:: Howard - that was the most impressive concept - war, hatred, violence - all part of our struggle to exist

moose1567:: we are targeted because of our openness of mind and freedom of religions
howbloom:: me too, re cooperation outweigh competition

MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: I think Islamic groups also project repressed sexuality onto us

howbloom:: the western world, western civilization

stevepainter:: definitely- cooperation helps groups survive

Jeremy1952:: You're familiar with Axelrod? His example of WWII soldiers refusing to hurt one another?

MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: they feel guilty and attack us for representing their guilt

howbloom:: has purged itself of violence more successfully than any previous system of human social integration

Chris OConnor:: Moose - I would think that is a part of it

howbloom:: who feels guilty?

MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: Muslims re: sexuality

Chris OConnor:: Not I

MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: America is seen as sexually expressive

Jeremy1952:: Muslims feeling guilty about their own denied sexuality.

howbloom:: Muslims feel guilty about sexuality:

howbloom:: yes, the west is despised for its sexuality

howbloom:: for its depravity

MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: the psychohistory guys talk a lot about that

Chris OConnor:: yes, I read "The Arab Mind" which covered that issue

howbloom:: for having no manners

Jeremy1952:: Of course we go a few rounds on that too (USAians, not necessarily all westerners)

howbloom:: no civilization

howbloom:: no propriety

MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: are you familiar with Lloyd's psychohistory list, Howard?

MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: we really don't have a lot of manners

howbloom:: for harboring fornication and homosexuality

stevepainter:: we seem to have a split personality in regards to sexuality

Chris OConnor:: How so Steve?

howbloom:: I’m having trouble reading and writing at the same time

MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: I'd like to see more research on parallels between Islamic and Christian fundamentalists

howbloom:: how do we simplify the dialog

Chris OConnor:: Howard - take your time

Bugteach:: are the present terrorist attacks a direct result of some infringement of the rats mimi

howbloom:: ok ,let's concentrate on Christian fundamentalism and Islamic fundamentalism, ok?

Chris OConnor:: We will all slow down

MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: ok

Chris OConnor:: Ok, sounds like a plan Howard

Jeremy1952:: The usual technique in "chat" is to selectively ignore; I guess that's a ltitle harder for an invited guest, though!

howbloom:: these are two areas I’ve researched

howbloom:: and have spent 20 years fighting personally

MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: all the Christians seem excited about Armageddon lately

stevepainter:: on the one hand we harbor a Victorian idea of what proper behavior is, but on the other we sell sex in every way

howbloom:: yes, the rapture

howbloom:: but here's the bottom line

howbloom:: Christian fundamentalism killed over 180 people in Oklahoma city

Jeremy1952:: True...

howbloom:: one doctor in my hometown, Buffalo, NY

howbloom:: and has planted several bombs

howbloom:: at abortion clinics

Chris OConnor:: yes, very true

howbloom:: it's dangerous and filled with hate

howbloom:: and its promoted absurd forms of censorship

Jeremy1952:: So; are the fundamentalists really a different "thing" than the rest of the religion?

Chris OConnor:: I believe all religions to be dangerous

howbloom:: getting rid of Harry Potter for being satanic

howbloom:: yes

MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: I think so Jeremy, I think they're a distinct subculture

howbloom:: fundamentalists cohere

stevepainter:: religious fundamentalism of every stripe can be barbaric and dangerous

howbloom:: more strongly than others

howbloom:: they cohere around hatred

howbloom:: despising evil

Jeremy1952:: But doesn't any religion have the potential to become more dangerous? Or less?

howbloom:: and fighting ig

stevepainter:: it's fear really I think

howbloom:: fighting is a great bonding mechanism

MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: any group of humans, Jeremy

Chris OConnor:: I was not aware of the hatred preaches in the Koran, but our Bible is not much better

howbloom:: do you remember

stevepainter:: the hatred that is

Johnny Neuron:: I definitely feel there is a rise in Christian fundamentalism here in the US; take the "Left Behind" series ie.

Chris OConnor:: How so Howard?

howbloom:: back in the days of Marxism vs. capitalism

howbloom:: how the revolutionaries always called for

Jeremy1952:: Hmmm... well, but groups of humans have the potential for being dealt with rationally. We have goals that

howbloom:: unity, fraternity, solidarity?

Jeremy1952:: can turn in to mutual goals. Religions, on the other hand, seem inherently self serving;

Chris OConnor:: Yes Howard

howbloom:: for camaraderie

MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: probably has a lot to do with early experiences with authority too

NaddiaAoC joined

howbloom:: all these are bonding terms

howbloom:: people need desperately to bond

howbloom:: deeply with other human beings

Jeremy1952:: death dealing if that spreads the meme, peace dealing if that works today

moose1567:: Hi Nadia!!!

MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: do you think it's also a need to purge one's own group of dissonance? guilt, shame etc?

howbloom:: fundamentalism uses a primary bonding mechanism

Jeremy1952:: Hey Nadia

Chris OConnor:: Howard - very true

howbloom:: yes to dissonance guilt and shame

NaddiaAoC:: Hi everyone!

howbloom:: they're part of the brew

MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: fundamentalists seem to use a lot of military metaphors

howbloom:: i was just sitting with an Islamic friend

Jeremy1952:: Do you see it, Howard, as a technique being used by fundamentalists, or is it more

howbloom:: who wondered why his community in Brooklyn

howbloom:: is gung ho for holy war

howbloom:: for the idea

Jeremy1952:: an evolution, selection, within the meme of fundamentalism?

howbloom:: that death is more important to us

Chris OConnor:: Howard - individual humans are somewhat predictable, but it is when large groups act as one that we seem to experience horrific results

howbloom:: than life is to you

howbloom:: this is an idea that's taking off

MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: is death some kind of ecstatic union?

howbloom:: in an Islamic community of middle and upper middle

howbloom:: class professionals

howbloom:: doctors

howbloom:: dentists

howbloom:: psychiatrists

howbloom:: here in Brooklyn

Johnny Neuron:: Mr. Bloom, I am a former fundamentalist (former Jehovah's Witness) and I agree that most fundamentalists have more in common with other opposing fundamentalists than say, liberal religionists. It seems that social cohesion is more important than doctrine or dogma.

howbloom:: militant Islam has a horrible track record for delivery

howbloom:: it oppresses the poor horribly

stevepainter:: really? I didn't know the more educated were in on the idea of jihad also

howbloom:: by making them

howbloom:: far poorer

howbloom:: than ever before

Jeremy1952:: One of the things I learned from your book, though, is that delivering on promises isn't all that important

Jeremy1952:: to the success of a cult

howbloom:: look at Egypt

howbloom:: you're right

howbloom:: you hit the point

howbloom:: let me tell you

howbloom:: about Egypt, ok?

MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: you can always blame the enemy for your own failure to deliver

howbloom:: in 1951

Chris OConnor:: Good point Jeremy

howbloom:: Egypt had the same standard of living

howbloom:: as south Korea

howbloom:: today the average Korean

howbloom:: makes 20 times as much

howbloom:: per year

Chris OConnor:: wow

howbloom:: as the average Egyptian

howbloom:: and in the last

howbloom:: 20 years

howbloom:: the Egyptian standard of living

howbloom:: and that in all

howbloom:: the Arab countries

howbloom:: has deteriorated dramatically

howbloom:: its plunged

howbloom:: to the level

howbloom:: of sub Saharan Africa

howbloom:: which has

Chris OConnor:: As the result of what? - what is fueling their demise?

howbloom:: the lowest standard of living

Jeremy1952:: Well, is that a good thing, or a bad thing? Didn't you say that it is success
that leads to warlike behavior?

howbloom:: anywhere in the world

stevepainter:: so are the despotic-style rulers the cause or the effect?

howbloom:: it's a result of military

howbloom:: fetish

Chris OConnor:: Ahh

howbloom:: weapon hunger

howbloom:: killing lust

howbloom:: hate frenzy

howbloom:: righteous anger stoking

moose1567:: the new world order?

Jeremy1952:: aha. Yea, that makes sense. Especially in light of what North Korea is doing

howbloom:: in other words

howbloom:: it's a result of drugging

MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: I see the US having some problems, states are running out of money and we're diverting social funds into military ventures

howbloom:: the masses not with an opioid

howbloom:: but with a steroid

howbloom:: we can get into the states later

howbloom:: billions of dollars

stevepainter:: promise them power rather than a prosperous future?

Chris OConnor:: explain this steroid concept

howbloom:: have gone through Arab hands

howbloom:: billions of

howbloom:: oil dollars

howbloom:: billions of dollars in aid

howbloom:: and all that money

Timothy Schoonover joined

howbloom:: has gone for just one thing

moose1567:: hi Tim

howbloom:: pride

Chris OConnor:: Hey Tim - pull up a chair

howbloom:: for courage

howbloom:: for heroism

howbloom:: for victory

Timothy Schoonover:: argh...I’m late?

howbloom:: which means for weapons

howbloom:: for killing

howbloom:: putting all your money

NaddiaAoC:: hi Tim

Chris OConnor:: Howard - makes so much sense

howbloom:: into weaponry produces

howbloom:: poverty

howbloom:: and yet the Arabs

howbloom:: and their fellow Moslems

howbloom:: are more determined

howbloom:: than ever

MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: is there a sexual tension between being "manly" and being "weak" involved here?

Chris OConnor:: Howard - but in Lucifer you stress the need to always be at the ready - against the "barbarians"

howbloom:: to spread their message globally

howbloom:: why?

howbloom:: because anger bonds

howbloom:: righteousness bonds

howbloom:: fury bonds

howbloom:: righteous indignation bonds

howbloom:: and humans live

howbloom:: on the oxygen of attention

howbloom:: they live in a sea of bonds or

Chris OConnor:: so true...anger and hatred bond - we need enemies to vent our hatred towards

howbloom:: isolation

howbloom:: isolation kills

MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: does it also wash away the feeling of contamination?

howbloom:: bonding brings life

howbloom:: yes

howbloom:: the Arabs and non

howbloom:: Arab Moslems know exactly

stevepainter:: that would explain why isolationism never works

stevepainter:: in the long run

howbloom:: where all the sin

howbloom:: n the world is

howbloom:: it is here

howbloom:: in the west

howbloom:: particularly in the us

howbloom:: so the ultimate goal of

howbloom:: an Osama would be

howbloom:: something like this

howbloom:: to get his hands on Pakistan's nukes

Chris OConnor:: yes

howbloom:: on Pakistan's next generation stealth subs

howbloom:: on Pakistan’s mid

howbloom:: range ballistic missiles

howbloom:: which fit snugly

howbloom:: into the forward portion of the

howbloom:: submarines

howbloom:: missile delivering subs

howbloom:: to set one of Pakistan’s

moose1567:: scary

howbloom:: three subs on a path

howbloom:: to North America’s

howbloom:: Atlantic coast

Jeremy1952:: So , do we need a proper enemy to bond us together? Are we making a mistake not wallowing in hatred of Muslims &/or Arabs?

howbloom:: these subs have a 10,000

howbloom:: mile range

Chris OConnor:: A nuke attack on our nation could bring us to our knees, perhaps cast us into the dark ages instantly

MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: is Bush risking instability in Pakistan by attacking Iraq?

howbloom:: to send

howbloom:: another sub

howbloom:: to the pacific coast

howbloom:: and to nuke America’s fifteen

stevepainter:: I don't think so Jeremy - we paint a country as an enemy and that seems to work pretty well

howbloom:: largest cities

howbloom:: it would be the pr coup of th

howbloom:: the 21st

howbloom:: century

howbloom:: it would do for

howbloom:: Osama what

Chris OConnor:: Howard - our country would fall

howbloom:: destroying the populations

howbloom:: of entire cities

howbloom:: did for Alexander

howbloom:: Alexander of Macedon

Chris OConnor:: Howard - 2 large buildings destroyed and our nation completely shut down for awhile

howbloom:: became Alexander the great

Jeremy1952:: I don't know. I'm not comfortable hating. It took me a year after 9-11 to STOP hating Muslims; and that was helped by

howbloom:: via body count

Johnny Neuron:: Isn't the Pakistani govt. an ally of the US though?

Jeremy1952:: a realization that consistency would require hating Christians, too.

howbloom:: don't hate Moslems, don't at all

howbloom:: hate Moslem militancy

howbloom:: just as you hate the

Chris OConnor:: It is not the Muslims, but the meme

howbloom:: militancy of the

MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: I don't hate Islam at all. I see it as a runaway system, and our system is in danger of the same thing

howbloom:: Christian fundamentalists

howbloom:: holed up in Idaho

howbloom:: our job

Jeremy1952:: Two separate things, though; I was asking if we SHOULD, not if it is rational.

Chris OConnor:: excellent point

howbloom:: is to save Moslems

MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: I don't even hate the virus of fundamentalism, it's just a psychological disease

howbloom:: just as they think

Jeremy1952:: If it works for them... bonding ...

howbloom:: their job is to save us

MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: Jeremy, it is a good question, how to bond ourselves

howbloom:: their are better ways of

howbloom:: bonding

MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: good point

howbloom:: we need to know

Chris OConnor:: Michael - it is a disease that must be cured before it brings the entire superorganism down

MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: opposites attract

howbloom:: what we stand for

howbloom:: what we offer

MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: chris--exactly

stevepainter:: but Jeremy - we'd be turning on many of our own Americans who are Muslims

howbloom:: that's worth living and dying for

howbloom:: many Moslems believe

MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: Steve--as Osama turned on those Muslims

howbloom:: in the western system

stevepainter:: right

howbloom:: as passionately as I do

MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: we should emphasize that militant Muslims don’t' care about American Muslims at all

howbloom:: and many more can be cut loose

howbloom:: from the plague

howbloom:: of violence

howbloom:: of militancy

stevepainter:: all the more reason we shouldn't "hate Muslims"

MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: I worry about the effect of a war in Iraq on this

howbloom:: Osama's reasoning

howbloom:: about our Moslems

howbloom:: is this

howbloom:: we can afford

howbloom:: he says,

howbloom:: to lose 100 million Moslems

MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: I've heard a lot of Americans in chat rooms say "first we'll take Iraq, then Saudi, then Iran"

howbloom:: in order to do

howbloom:: what Allah demands

howbloom:: to take over the world

howbloom:: the Moslem websites are now

howbloom:: talking openly about

howbloom:: "taking Europe back"

stevepainter:: Saudi Arabia is really the force behind most of this

howbloom:: to make Europe the

howbloom:: Moslem territory

howbloom:: it was always

howbloom:: meant to be

howbloom:: with no us

howbloom:: in the picture

howbloom:: no united

Chris OConnor:: and this is indeed the goal of the Islamic faith - world domination and stated in the Koran

howbloom:: states

MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: so does this boil down to a third world war?

howbloom:: Europe would have to bow

howbloom:: obsequiously

Bugteach:: sight a web sight please

Jeremy1952:: Well, that was the stated goal of world communism too...

howbloom:: on its knees

MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: if you read Revelation, it's an almost identical vision, only with Jesus as the ruler

howbloom:: to Osama

howbloom:: the new what

howbloom:: does he call it

howbloom:: not the emir

MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: caliph?

Timothy Schoonover:: It's inherent to the nature of memes, no?

howbloom:: but the new leader yes

howbloom:: caliph

howbloom:: of a global empire

howbloom:: global

howbloom:: the world is going global

howbloom:: Islam was built for

howbloom:: globalism

Chris OConnor:: wow

howbloom:: its the only religion

howbloom:: that offers a

howbloom:: global system of

howbloom:: laws and government

stevepainter:: but the fundamental version is just as repressive as any other

Chris OConnor:: our position as world leader teeters on the edge of collapse

Jeremy1952:: One ray of hope in my world view, is that parasites tend to get less dangerous over time

MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: was just reading a paragraph from Lucifer: "If we ever save ourselves from the scourge of mass violence, it will be through the efforts of millions of minds, networked together..."

howbloom:: yes, this

howbloom:: is a turning point

howbloom:: in history

howbloom:: the things we discuss

howbloom:: today, now

Chris OConnor:: Michael - I think that is what Global Brain is about

howbloom:: in this chat

howbloom:: may make a difference

Jeremy1952:: If you look at old time Christianity it looks about as bad as 21 century Islam

howbloom:: in the direction history takes tomorrow

stevepainter:: absolutely

Chris OConnor:: yes, there are seeds being planted right now

Johnny Neuron left

howbloom:: old time Christianity was

Jeremy1952:: but it seems to have "mellowed" over the centuries

howbloom:: ghastly

MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: do people end up acting like the gods they follow?

howbloom:: BUT WE DON'T HAVE IT

howbloom:: ANYMORE

howbloom:: we've evolved beyond it

howbloom:: to new forms of competition

stevepainter:: for the most part

howbloom:: creative competition

Jeremy1952:: Just like the diseases we live with; pneumonia has been around a long time, so we have come to terms with it. A truce, more or less.

howbloom:: cooperation

howbloom:: that enriches

howbloom:: not impoverishes

MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: one girl trained as a suicide bomber decided not to go through with it...she felt the jihadists were playing with the blood of the martyrs

Jeremy1952:: Malaria is relatively young and quite destructive

howbloom:: let me tell you a story

stevepainter:: many seem to want to bring back "old time Christianity"

Johnny Neuron joined

howbloom:: about cotton

howbloom:: ok?

Chris OConnor:: yes, please do

Bugteach:: k

howbloom:: once upon a time

howbloom:: 200 years ago or so

Chris OConnor:: true Steve

howbloom:: cotton was

howbloom:: something only the rich could

howbloom:: afford

howbloom:: it was comfortable

howbloom:: as all get out

howbloom:: it was easily laundered

howbloom:: which means

Timothy Schoonover:: yeah it is!

howbloom:: no more lice or bugs

howbloom:: but it came from India

howbloom:: via the Indian ocean

howbloom:: down to Yemen

Bugteach:: excuse me :0

howbloom:: and

howbloom:: Oman

howbloom:: ok bug,

howbloom:: what is it?

howbloom:: should I

howbloom:: return to the tale?

howbloom:: normal folks

Jeremy1952:: <-- listening to tale

howbloom:: wore wool clothing

Bugteach:: no joking on my name I am very interested continue please

howbloom:: that couldn't be laundered easily

Chris OConnor:: Please do Howard

howbloom:: smelled

howbloom:: itched

howbloom:: irritated the skin

howbloom:: and was a great home

howbloom:: for bugs of all kinds

howbloom:: then we had several innovations

howbloom:: remember back

howbloom:: in the days of Henry the 8th

howbloom:: when Henry got

Chris OConnor:: I don't personally

howbloom:: a wild idea

howbloom:: and did something the Turks had

howbloom:: already done

howbloom:: but multiplied it exponentially?

howbloom:: he put

howbloom:: cannons on sailing ships

howbloom:: tons and tons of them

Chris OConnor:: Ahh

howbloom:: and England went from a lesser power

howbloom:: in Europe

howbloom:: to a world force

howbloom:: over the next 200 years

stevepainter:: military innovation

howbloom:: thanks to its navy

howbloom:: right?

Chris OConnor:: Yes

howbloom:: but England needed wood to make its ships

Jeremy1952:: with you so far

howbloom:: and the wood in England

howbloom:: had been pretty much used up

howbloom:: to keep homes warm

stevepainter:: we need oil for our war toys?

howbloom:: the country was running out of

howbloom:: the stuff

howbloom:: now think back to those lazy

howbloom:: sons of bitches

howbloom:: the aristocracy

howbloom:: what do they talk about incessantly

howbloom:: in pj wodehouse novels?

howbloom:: breeding

howbloom:: breeding things

howbloom:: how to improve a

howbloom:: breed of

howbloom:: bulls

howbloom:: a breed of pigs

howbloom:: a breed in the family

howbloom:: the breeding obsession

howbloom:: of the English aristocrats

howbloom:: gave us Darwin’s theory

howbloom:: of natural selection

MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: sex?

howbloom:: and it gave England

howbloom:: something more

howbloom:: not sex alone

howbloom:: we're talking early genetic engineering

howbloom:: the British

howbloom:: learned the value

howbloom:: of mono cropping

howbloom:: of concentrating on just one crop

howbloom:: per estate

howbloom:: finding out which

howbloom:: crop worked best

howbloom:: on the sort of land you had

howbloom:: and pouring your

howbloom:: heart

howbloom:: your soul

howbloom:: your energy

howbloom:: into genetically

howbloom:: engineering the stuff

howbloom:: via breeding

howbloom:: England needed

howbloom:: wood to build more ships

howbloom:: so they mono cropped trees

howbloom:: they build a new

howbloom:: agricultural innovation

howbloom:: called

howbloom:: are you ready?

Chris OConnor:: yes

howbloom:: the plantation

howbloom:: the single crop super producer

howbloom:: par excellence

howbloom:: they raised oak for

howbloom:: masts

howbloom:: they raised, I believe

Jeremy1952:: Ah! so the plantation was invented to grow trees for warships. Fascinating.

howbloom:: fast growing pines for

howbloom:: the less important things

howbloom:: ok

howbloom:: so the British now had a

howbloom:: fleet

howbloom:: let

howbloom:: 's go back

howbloom:: to an earlier innovation

howbloom:: allow me to take you to

howbloom:: 200 bc

howbloom:: ok?

howbloom:: wait,

stevepainter:: why not

howbloom:: sorry

howbloom:: that’s 200 ad

howbloom:: now the Romans had been importing

Bugteach:: k

howbloom:: Chinese and Indian

Jeremy1952:: <- takes time travel pill and plunges ahead

howbloom:: goods for a very long time

howbloom:: in fact they ran

howbloom:: a heavy balance of payments

Chris OConnor:: :0

howbloom:: deficit with

howbloom:: china

howbloom:: because their noblewomen outdid

howbloom:: each other to wear the best

howbloom:: silk gowns

howbloom:: silk was shipped

howbloom:: overland

howbloom:: via the old silk road

howbloom:: the trip took

howbloom:: i believe

howbloom:: 3 years or so

howbloom:: and was dangerous

howbloom:: as hell

howbloom:: so silk cost a fortune

howbloom:: then a clever arab

howbloom:: 400 years before Mohammed's

howbloom:: birth

howbloom:: did a very evolutionary thing

howbloom:: he figured out

howbloom:: how to make catastrophe

howbloom:: into something positive

howbloom:: opportunity

howbloom:: the catastrophe

howbloom:: was the monsoon

howbloom:: whose impact you know

howbloom:: flooding and destruction, right?

howbloom:: but he saw more than carnage

howbloom:: he notice a pattern

howbloom:: in the way the monsoons go

howbloom:: for one part of the year

Chris OConnor:: yes

howbloom:: the blow northeast

howbloom:: and in the other part of the year

Chris OConnor:: Travel

Chris OConnor:: He used the winds

howbloom:: they blow southwest

howbloom:: meanwhile, the Arabs

Chris OConnor:: and currents

howbloom:: had invented

howbloom:: something called

howbloom:: the lateen sail

Chris OConnor:: yep

howbloom:: a triangular sail

howbloom:: you could use it to

Chris OConnor:: both ways

howbloom:: outwit the wind

howbloom:: and tack

howbloom:: you've got it chris

Chris OConnor:: very impressive invention

howbloom:: using ships

howbloom:: equipped

howbloom:: with this sail

Chris OConnor:: incredible step forward - no longer were we slaves to nature

howbloom:: he realized you could sail to India

howbloom:: via a sea borne

howbloom:: shortcut

howbloom:: then wait for the winds

howbloom:: to change

howbloom:: and sail back to

howbloom:: Oman

howbloom:: or Qatar

howbloom:: once again

howbloom:: meanwhile

howbloom:: other Arab inventors

howbloom:: had come up with a way

howbloom:: to create a virtual

howbloom:: sea lane

howbloom:: across the Arab peninsula

howbloom:: to the Mediterranean sea

howbloom:: the didn't dig a canal

howbloom:: they domesticated

howbloom:: camels

howbloom:: and organized them

howbloom:: in a cargo carrying caravan

howbloom:: the high price the Romans

howbloom:: had paid

xilog left

AvatarofPower joined

howbloom:: for goods from the east

howbloom:: went down dramatically

howbloom:: that meant the price of cotton and of silk

howbloom:: and ceramics--

howbloom:: teapots

howbloom:: tea cups

howbloom:: saucers

howbloom:: and, yes

Chris OConnor:: welcome Kevin

howbloom:: tea

howbloom:: but still only the super rich could

howbloom:: actually afford these

howbloom:: these ultra luxuries.

howbloom:: now for the British ships

stevepainter:: (a cup of tea sounds good)

howbloom:: we'll skip the

howbloom:: Portuguese

howbloom:: who found the sea route

howbloom:: around the tip

howbloom:: of Africa

howbloom:: and cut the price of eastern goods in half

howbloom:: again

howbloom:: the brits acquired

howbloom:: India

howbloom:: as the Jewel in the crown of empire

howbloom:: right?

Chris OConnor:: True

howbloom:: the French built the Suez Canal

howbloom:: all this brought the price of cotton clothing down

howbloom:: considerably

howbloom:: then the brits

howbloom:: used their invention

howbloom:: the plantation

howbloom:: to raise cotton

howbloom:: in some of the new places they'd conquered

howbloom:: the islands of the Caribbean

howbloom:: and the American south

howbloom:: we'll skip the very sticky

howbloom:: and wretched issue of slave

howbloom:: trading, which was

howbloom:: invented by the Arabs

howbloom:: using those old

howbloom:: monsoon winds

howbloom:: to establish slave trading

howbloom:: entrepots in east Africa

howbloom:: so now we had

howbloom:: mass production of raw cotton

howbloom:: the price of cotton goods went down again

howbloom:: now the upper middle class

stevepainter:: slave trading was invented by the Arabs? - Please get back to that later

howbloom:: could afford the stuff

moose1567:: please

howbloom:: like Jacques Louis David's wife's sister

howbloom:: whose father had made his money

Johnny Neuron left

howbloom:: like Osama's dad had

howbloom:: in construction

howbloom:: building the Louvre

howbloom:: in 1800

howbloom:: the power loom was invented

howbloom:: it was England's top

howbloom:: secret technology

howbloom:: now cotton goods were produced

howbloom:: in such profusion

howbloom:: that the price was low enough for the

howbloom:: ordinary man and woman

howbloom:: and a new cry went up

howbloom:: a nation's civilization

howbloom:: is measured by the amount of soap it uses

howbloom:: the death rate went down

howbloom:: why?

howbloom:: because you could buy

howbloom:: enough cotton clothing

howbloom:: to actually change it

howbloom:: frequently

howbloom:: and unlike wool

howbloom:: you could wash it

howbloom:: but here's the real point of the story

howbloom:: today

howbloom:: when folks like my old client

howbloom:: Stewart Copeland

howbloom:: or my anthropologist

howbloom:: friends

howbloom:: go to Africa

howbloom:: in search of the most primitive tribes

howbloom:: with the purest indigenous

Chris OConnor:: And if anyone has a question for Howard - feel free to throw it out there when he finishes

howbloom:: cultures on this earth

howbloom:: what do they find?

Jeremy1952:: Cotton?

howbloom:: what do their photos show?

howbloom:: yes

howbloom:: people living in squalor and poverty

howbloom:: people making almost no cash

howbloom:: living at all

howbloom:: are wearing cotton t shirts

howbloom:: cotton shorts

howbloom:: and cotton hats

howbloom:: the western system

howbloom:: has elevated the poor and the oppressed

Timothy Schoonover joined

howbloom:: the goal of every religion

howbloom:: we've achieved it

howbloom:: now we have to believe it

MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: don't forget Nike logos

howbloom:: to defend it

howbloom:: the system of competition via creativity

howbloom:: rather than competition

howbloom:: via the gun

howbloom:: competition via

howbloom:: fundamentalist militancy

Jeremy1952:: So, not to go off on a total tangent, but may I ask a question about the "Lucifer Principle" itself?

howbloom:: buying weapons has impoverished the Arab nations

howbloom:: ummm, should

stevepainter:: go for it Jeremy

howbloom:: we first answer the

howbloom:: question about

howbloom:: Arabs inventing African enslavement?

Chris OConnor:: Sure

stevepainter:: no - I asked that - let Jeremy go

Chris OConnor:: We just don’t want to let you slip away

Bugteach:: yep

howbloom:: the Arabs and their wonderful ships were capable

howbloom:: of jihad in Africa

howbloom:: they traveled up and down the eastern coast

MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: I'm interested in the process of projection...people projecting their own "evil" onto others and becoming immune to communication

howbloom:: establishing cities like Mobassa

Jeremy1952:: LOL Well, it struck me that the "Lucifer Principle" is the second half of something... the breaking down side

howbloom:: and languages based on Arabic

howbloom:: like Swahili

Jeremy1952:: of construction; but there has to be a "building up" side to chip away at

howbloom:: you're right

howbloom:: the Lucifer principle

Chris OConnor:: Good point Jeremy

Jeremy1952:: I'm wondering if the "other side" has a name, an identity

howbloom:: deliberately focused on the negative side of creativity

howbloom:: no

Chris OConnor:: How could we summarize the Lucifer Principle

howbloom:: alas

howbloom:: science is blind to the other side

howbloom:: which is something I'm working on

Chris OConnor:: Ahh

howbloom:: I'm working on helping science

howbloom:: see the inherent

Jeremy1952:: Ah.

howbloom:: creativity in this cosmos

howbloom:: creativity

MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: is there an email forum for Lucifer principle or related?

howbloom:: and to find a way to explain it

howbloom:: there's a global brain chat group

howbloom:: but none that I know of on

howbloom:: the Lucifer principle

howbloom:: creativity is at

Chris OConnor:: I will give you all the info for the Global Brain chat group

Chris OConnor:: I am a member

howbloom:: the heart of what we have to defend

howbloom:: at this time in history

howbloom:: why Iraq?

howbloom:: that's what I wonder

Chris OConnor:: Yes, great question

howbloom:: here's what my Islamic friend

MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: so it's really a war between cultural creative and fundamentalists?

howbloom:: said the week after 9/11

Jeremy1952:: So you truly feel that nature has a direction, a goal; that isn't just metaphor?

howbloom:: yes, it's a war between the creative and the destructive force of

howbloom:: human social evolution

howbloom:: yes, I feel that nature takes quantum

howbloom:: leaps upward

howbloom:: in creativity

MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: it seems like we put most of our creativity into the machinery of selling things, rather than spreading positive ideas about culture

howbloom:: on a fairly regular basis

howbloom:: with us or without us

howbloom:: but if we want to survive

stevepainter:: by nature do you mean "human nature"?

howbloom:: it will have to be with us

howbloom:: no

howbloom:: I’m talking about a big bang

howbloom:: emerging from a singularity

howbloom:: I’m talking about a singularity

howbloom:: emerging from a nothingness

howbloom:: I'm talking about a

Chris OConnor:: yes, what is your take on that?

MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: I think Muslims look at our culture and they see our fragmentation and our chaotic grouping...should we set a new example by bonding without violence?

howbloom:: throbbing soup of high speed particles

howbloom:: a plasma at

Bugteach:: what about mother earths alter ego?

howbloom:: the beginning of the universe

Chris OConnor:: A singularity coming from nothing makes no sense

howbloom:: when no plasma had ever existed before

howbloom:: I'm talking about the pressure waves

Jeremy1952:: The universe is not obligated to make sense to us

howbloom:: the first music

stevepainter:: MG - I don't think most non-Americans see how we are a group (even though we seem to disagree a lot)

moose1567:: [_]D

howbloom:: that rang that plasma like a gong

Chris OConnor:: Jeremy - true, but damn I want it to

AvatarofPower:: but isn't 'creativity' a human invention? Creativity is just the human definition for a consciousness discovering utility... how does creativity exist as a function of the universe?

howbloom:: and I'm talking about 100,000 years later

MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: Steve--as an American I see a lot of aimlessness

howbloom:: when an extraordinary

howbloom:: creative leap occurred

howbloom:: protons discovered

Chris OConnor:: Avatar - excellent wording - I have to agree

MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: a long term war would give us purpose but would it really bond us or would it make the culture wars toxic?

howbloom:: that they were attracted to particles

MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: I think human creativity is similar in many ways to natural processes...evolution being one

stevepainter:: but when challenged we form a fairly cohesive group

howbloom:: only one 1,850th their size

howbloom:: and atoms emerged

MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: artists don't create from a plan, they recombine and sift like nature does

Jeremy1952:: But what is driving it? Is it blind evolution, "Santa Fe" principles of self-organization? Or some actual directional, what?

Chris OConnor:: Howard - you seem to speak of natures creative forces almost as if there is some sort of sentience or "life" to it

howbloom:: this is the big question

howbloom:: i do not believe there

MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: I think any system would tend toward greater complexity, at least under the right conditions

howbloom:: is sentience to it

howbloom:: but it has direction

Chris OConnor:: Howard - pheeww

howbloom:: it is an impulsive

Chris OConnor:: Howard - Ok, I am with you

howbloom:: and propulsive force

stevepainter:: I don't believe it has a direction

howbloom:: that produces grandeur

Bugteach:: the alter ego right?

MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: trajectory might be a better word

howbloom:: it produced atoms from a shou

Jeremy1952:: Propulsive force... what does that mean?

Chris OConnor:: Bug - explain?

howbloom:: a huge jump upward

howbloom:: I know what he means.

Chris OConnor:: Ahh

howbloom:: look

Chris OConnor:: Howard - so what would fuel this - as Jeremy asked

howbloom:: this cosmos began with one of the biggest energy rushes you can imagine

Chris OConnor:: True

howbloom:: it's been taking that energy

howbloom:: and making things ever since

Jeremy1952:: (I can't imagine it)

howbloom:: think about it

howbloom:: there was a time when

Chris OConnor:: I am so bewildered by the concept of a singularity

Bugteach:: how said in his book the Satan is mother earths alter ego and is motivating the world now

howbloom:: there were no things at all

Jeremy1952:: So what is "it" that "makes"?

MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: recombination produces complexity by its nature doesn't it?

howbloom:: no matter

howbloom:: no atoms

AvatarofPower:: right, Howard, but why is it necessary to define it as creativity?

howbloom:: none of the things we take for granted

Chris OConnor:: Bug - ahhhh

stevepainter:: it had to go somewhere - given infinite time to work with

howbloom:: all popped into being

Chris OConnor:: Howard - how the hell could that happen?

howbloom:: do you have a better word for it than

howbloom:: creativity?

Chris OConnor:: Steve - true, but did it all begin?

MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: there could have been something before the singularity, just
nothing we can get a handle on

howbloom:: I could use it

Jeremy1952:: Aside from gravity and fundamental forces of nature, which is what
mainstream science attributes it to?

howbloom:: there was pretty obviously a nothing

Chris OConnor:: Michael - I so agree

howbloom:: with simple rules of its own

AvatarofPower:: as time moves forward, energy is moved around... by probability, more new things will happen and more new arrangements will be found...

howbloom:: no

howbloom:: not probability

howbloom:: forget probability

howbloom:: this is not a totally determined universe

Chris OConnor:: Michael - I think we don't have a clue when it all comes down to it - there could be multiple universes, and infinite cycle of expansions and collapses...

AvatarofPower:: you're telling me it is a sentient creativity rather than a random probability

howbloom:: but it is a very constrained universe

stevepainter:: no one knows Chris - try Guth again for a Big Bang friendly idea

howbloom:: bear with me and let me tell you a tiny tale of universal

howbloom:: creativity, cosmic

howbloom:: creativity

howbloom:: and its limitations

howbloom:: its rigid boundaries

AvatarofPower:: (yes, Guths inflationary universe is excellent, Steve)

Bugteach:: go for it

howbloom:: unless I’ve worn you out with stories

Timothy Schoonover:: listening

howbloom:: ok first there is a nothingness

AvatarofPower:: no, please go ahead

Chris OConnor:: Yes, this is interesting

howbloom:: you and I are sitting around at an outdoor

howbloom:: cafe table

howbloom:: before the beginning of the universe

howbloom:: you are a dreamer

howbloom:: I'm a skeptic

howbloom:: you tell me, Howard

howbloom:: just watch out

howbloom:: something's about to happen that you've never seen before

MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: <---relieved there is coffee before the beginning of the universe

howbloom:: there's going to be this infinitesimal twist

howbloom:: called a singularity

howbloom:: and from it will burst forth

howbloom:: a new thing that you've never seen

Jeremy1952:: Sounds like we're drifting into Italo Calvino's territory

stevepainter:: what else do you think fueled it, MG?

howbloom:: four forces and an energy

howbloom:: and I would say to you

Chris OConnor:: Michael

howbloom:: you're nuts

howbloom:: you’re absolutely crazy

howbloom:: I've been here as long as this nothingness

howbloom:: has existed

howbloom:: and no self- constructing

howbloom:: self unfolding infinitesimal

howbloom:: blip with almost infinite eagerness and energy

howbloom:: has ever existed before and

Jeremy1952:: But... but... absolute nothing violates the heisenberg uncertainty principle.

howbloom:: it is so improbable and impossible that it never will

howbloom:: then comes the singularity and proves me to be a fool

Jeremy1952:: Making something inevitable, required

MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: "nothing" is relatively defined by "things"

howbloom:: 100,000 years later

Chris OConnor:: Jeremy - maybe the principle doesn't fit

MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: "no thing we are familiar with"

howbloom:: we are still sitting at our cafe table

Chris OConnor:: drinking coffee

Jeremy1952:: But true nothing would have an exact momentum - zero - and an a exact
location - no where

stevepainter:: vacuum violates the uncertainty principle?

howbloom:: you've predicted all manner of utterly

howbloom:: wacko things

howbloom:: quarks

MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: <--wondering how star buck’s got a monopoly on pre-existential cafes

howbloom:: trios of quarks

Jeremy1952:: Absolutely, Steve. In the real world there is quantum foam.

howbloom:: protons stuck together with gluons

Chris OConnor:: ewww

howbloom:: leptons

howbloom:: the whole deal

Chris OConnor:: ok

stevepainter:: you always have quantum fluctuations in the vacuum

howbloom:: and I've been stunned and

MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: kleptons - the ones that keep stealing the other particles

howbloom:: amazed that you're lunacy has proved true

Chris OConnor:: LOL

howbloom:: kleptons, I love it ")

MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: feel free to steal my memes

Bugteach:: hehe

howbloom:: ok, pay attention because the universe

howbloom:: is about to pull a rabbit out of a hat again

Chris OConnor:: Yes, Michael is our entertainment at BookTalk - where is Kenny though? I'm not sure how we can define him LOL

howbloom:: I've been watching this plasma bonging

Chris OConnor:: I'm listening

Chris OConnor:: Bonging?

howbloom:: for 100,000 years

moose1567:: lol

howbloom:: yes, pressure waves

stevepainter:: that explains a lot

Jeremy1952:: (i hope its not a cud chewing rabbit, though, like the one a certain desert religion came up with)

howbloom:: physicists call it music

Chris OConnor:: Ok

howbloom:: and you say

howbloom:: Howard

howbloom:: I know you're not going to believe this

howbloom:: but I predict that in a couple of whatever

howbloom:: we substitute for days

howbloom:: this banging

howbloom:: wangling

howbloom:: jostling

howbloom:: ricocheting

Chris OConnor:: tussling

howbloom:: super highs speed broth

howbloom:: of particles, constantly

AvatarofPower:: rustling, bustling, tussling

howbloom:: wangling into each other

howbloom:: and ricocheting

howbloom:: like bullets

MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: zinging

howbloom:: bashing each other at high

NaddiaAoC:: Hehe. This sounds like one of your poems, Kevin.

howbloom:: speed

howbloom:: will slow down

howbloom:: and something new will appear

moose1567:: molecular orgy

MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: schlepping

howbloom:: something with properties beyond anything we've seen

MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: schleptons?

howbloom:: protons are going to discover

howbloom:: an attraction

howbloom:: that makes them glue themselves to electrons

howbloom:: these itty bitty things

howbloom:: things

howbloom:: that, as I said

howbloom:: are one 1,850th their size

Chris OConnor:: Moose

AvatarofPower:: I don't like this personified 'discover'

howbloom:: and I'd say you are nuts

howbloom:: you're crazy

howbloom:: I've watched this universe for 100,000 years now

howbloom:: particles have always

stevepainter:: what's a year?

howbloom:: bounced off each other

howbloom:: and they always will

howbloom:: the idea of this dance

howbloom:: that your predicting

howbloom:: this particle mating and romance

howbloom:: is just plain crazy

howbloom:: and the next day

Chris OConnor:: Steve - I see your point

howbloom:: the first electron and proton

howbloom:: slow down enough to meet

howbloom:: and sure enough

howbloom:: they mate

Timothy Schoonover:: I'll be damned.

howbloom:: and form an atom

howbloom:: with new properties

howbloom:: radical new things

Jeremy1952:: I think , when you try to visualize and use intuition at the cosmic and /or quantum scale, it is useful to recall

howbloom:: like the following

howbloom:: bear with me

Chris OConnor:: ok

howbloom:: there has never been matter in this universe before

Jeremy1952:: that our brains evolved for no such purpose; envisioning quantum interactions and atomic forces

howbloom:: you tell me it's going to come fairly

howbloom:: quickly

stevepainter:: good point Jeremy

Jeremy1952:: is a totally alien exercise to our intuition. SO naturally it seems strange to us

howbloom:: and you try to explain matter to me

howbloom:: and once again I think you're loony

MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: "something that matters"

howbloom:: especially when you tell me

howbloom:: that it's going to be yanked

howbloom:: together by a

howbloom:: force I've never seen

howbloom:: some nutcase frenzy that you call

howbloom:: gravity

howbloom:: now I really know you've lost it

Chris OConnor:: Howard - do I sense a 3rd book on the horizon?

howbloom:: but what happens

howbloom:: yes, the big bang tango

howbloom:: but first i have to write The Hidden

Chris OConnor:: That will be the name of the book?

Chris OConnor:: Ahh

howbloom:: Heartbeat of America--Reinventing Capitalism

howbloom:: Soul and

Timothy Schoonover:: hmm

howbloom:: the Wealth of nations

howbloom:: and I have to do it

howbloom:: for a reason someone

Chris OConnor:: I think someone already wrote "The Wealth of nations"

howbloom:: mentioned several minutes ago

Timothy Schoonover:: That's what I'd like to hear about!!

Chris OConnor:: What reason?

howbloom:: because we need to know what we're fighting for

Timothy Schoonover:: Sam Adams =)

Chris OConnor:: Tim LOL

Timothy Schoonover:: or something

Timothy Schoonover:: doh

howbloom:: the only system I know of that's ever elevated the

Chris OConnor:: Howard - I totally agree

howbloom:: poor

howbloom:: and given them t shirts of cotton

MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: is oil conservation really a "personal virtue"?

howbloom:: with Nike logos

howbloom:: it

howbloom:: s not matter

Timothy Schoonover:: Adam Smith. even

MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: can we have Ben jerry’s logos instead?

howbloom:: that we're missing

howbloom:: its meaning

howbloom:: its a goal

moose1567:: Islam right?

Chris OConnor:: Tim - ROFL I didn't even catch that

MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: Meaning Inc.

howbloom:: its idealism

howbloom:: to have idealism, you need to see

howbloom:: clearly the

stevepainter:: only if you get Deep Dark Chocolate ice cream too, MG

Jeremy1952:: Our culture has also given the world Viagra, which, through the law of unintended consequences, is saving

howbloom:: benefits of your system

howbloom:: we don't

howbloom:: we call it a consumerist

Jeremy1952:: endangered tigers in Asia

howbloom:: culture

howbloom:: we demean it

howbloom:: this is the only system that ha

Chris OConnor:: Jeremy - those tigers should not be taking Viagra

howbloom:: has ever produced

MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: we participate without thinking and we accumulate guilt

howbloom:: the surplus and

howbloom:: the communications devices

howbloom:: that make movements

MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: people need to feel they are contributing to something when they buy and sell, not just robotically killing time

howbloom:: to save animals a possibility

Chris OConnor:: So you do not bash consumerism

howbloom:: yes, Michelangelo

MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: I like the Smart Mob idea

MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: got that book

howbloom:: you put it perfectly

howbloom:: it's not just a smart mob

howbloom:: it's a mob with

howbloom:: a hidden heart

Chris OConnor:: this is fascinating stuff

howbloom:: with a hidden utopia

howbloom:: with hidden moral imperatives

howbloom:: there is creative capitalism

Timothy Schoonover:: How can capitalism work without unemployment, and how can such inherent oppression be empowering?

Jeremy1952:: I just don't see how tying the superiority of pluralistic democracy (which I support unequivocally) with

howbloom:: and criminal capitalism

howbloom:: we use a Marxist vocabulary

howbloom:: built on a base

Chris OConnor:: Tim - I read your post on the boards about that

howbloom:: laid by Adam smith

Jeremy1952:: a "force" that we can't define and can't pin down and can't explain, I don't see how that whole side

Jeremy1952:: does anything but weaken our case.

howbloom:: a system of words

howbloom:: a vocabulary that

howbloom:: demeans the creativity in what we've got

moose1567:: dose anyone remember the photo taken in Yemen, of kids celebrating in the streets after 911, one was wearing a Houston Astros T shirt?

Timothy Schoonover:: such could be said of idealism in general

howbloom:: that fails to see what one member saw above

stevepainter:: you seem to be saying that we're borally "better" than everyone

Chris OConnor:: Moose - nope

howbloom:: to exchange goods or services

howbloom:: is to save each other

stevepainter:: that was morally not borally

Chris OConnor:: Steve - perhaps both

howbloom:: yes, we are better than the Arab countries

Jeremy1952:: Lol, moose, now that's a keeper

howbloom:: that have mass produced poverty

Chris OConnor:: U oh

howbloom:: we are better than the Yanomamo

Jeremy1952:: And of course everyone in the world wants American greenbacks

howbloom:: who collect wives

howbloom:: by killing others

moose1567:: ironic, huh?

Chris OConnor:: who have practiced ...yes

howbloom:: we are better than the battlers of the Balkans

MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: are we undermining our position by waging war or are we right to pursue military dominance?

howbloom:: who are constantly at each others throats

Chris OConnor:: Howard - it takes some courage to say that...and I am not 100% sold on the idea, but it does make sense

howbloom:: competing with weaponry, not creativity

stevepainter:: of course we're morally "better" in our opinion - if not we'd be crazy

Jeremy1952:: It was suggested, when hard to counterfeit $100. bills came out, that the old ones be invalidated after a time;

howbloom:: we are better than the Islamic fundamentalist

Chris OConnor:: Howard - Jared Diamond would differ I believe

howbloom:: killers

howbloom:: listen to this

Chris OConnor:: ok

Jeremy1952:: no longer legal tender; but they decided it would be destabilizing

howbloom:: here's a rough death toll

stevepainter:: that doesn't mean that we're "Better" in some absolute sense

howbloom:: of modern Islamic jihadism

MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: keep in mind a few of our own leaders believe God elected them

howbloom:: over 100,000 have been killed in

Jeremy1952:: because the Russian central bank has us $100. bills that they use to back their currency

howbloom:: Algeria

stevepainter:: non-fundamentalists are better than fundamentalists perhaps

howbloom:: by the jihadists

Chris OConnor:: Steve - as a general rule I suppose

howbloom:: roughly 50,000 have been killed in Kashmir

howbloom:: over a million have been killed

Chris OConnor:: This is all true

howbloom:: in battles between Moslem and non

howbloom:: Moslems

moose1567:: 155,000, go on

howbloom:: in the Sudan and Somalia

howbloom:: and no one pays attention

howbloom:: no one cares

MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: is the only way to fight fundamentalists to kill them, or can you undermine their support base?

howbloom:: no one puts it in the headlines

stevepainter:: what about our sanctions in Iraq?

howbloom:: I want to undermine the support base

howbloom:: by giving a voice

howbloom:: to the modernist

howbloom:: pluralist

howbloom:: tolerant

howbloom:: Moslems I know

Timothy Schoonover:: So the US is better because our coercive tender is creativity rather than weaponry?

MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: I'd like to see moderate Muslims gain enough support that they can speak without fear

Chris OConnor:: It is just completely against the "politically correct" stance to ever illuminate anyone’s flaws or differences

howbloom:: I've been seeking them out

stevepainter:: with or without them - makes no difference to Saddam except that he can paint us as the "bad guy"

howbloom:: yes, the us is better because we fight economically

Jeremy1952:: That sounds like a terrific approach

howbloom:: Japan learned that after ww2

howbloom:: so did Germany

Jeremy1952:: Seeking out and supporting the moderates, I mean

stevepainter:: I don't know Tim, we make damn good weapons

howbloom:: no we have to teach it to Islam

howbloom:: now

howbloom:: not no

MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: will invading Iraq produce a happy liberated population or will it involve mistakes on our side that will give the fundamentalists more propaganda fuel?

howbloom:: we have to pacify this world

howbloom:: here

stevepainter:: exactly MG

howbloom:: my problem with Iraq

howbloom:: what we really have to do

howbloom:: is castrate Islam’s

Timothy Schoonover:: I don't think that coercion in any form will lead us to a better society unless you define better to be "physically safer"

howbloom:: nukes

moose1567:: to be beat by the US, is the best thing for any country

howbloom:: and its chemical an biological weapons