Global Brain: The Evolution of Mass Mind From the Big Bang To the 21st Century - by Howard Bloom

connected: ezChat version 0.50

howbloom:: the lord of the rings trilogy

howbloom:: hi, chris

Chris OConnor:: Hello folks

Jeremy1952 joined

howbloom:: hi jeremy

MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: yeah, great timing for it, with looming war etc.

Chris OConnor:: Hey Howard!

howbloom:: i have about 30 books in the computer

Jeremy1952:: Hi Dr. Bloom

Jeremy1952:: welcome back!

Chris OConnor:: Howard - were you watching Bush talk the past hour?

howbloom:: one of them is "Hit In The Head By Heavy Metal"

howbloom:: no, what did he say?

MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: I was proud of bush today, he only said "nuclear" a few times

MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: er...nucular

howbloom:: nuculur

MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: yeah, that one

howbloom:: so what did he say?

Chris OConnor:: Howard - he is giving a speech about why we need to disarm Iraq - preparing for war

MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: he's such a Pygmalion

Chris OConnor:: I am totally in support of Bush

howbloom:: ok, so how do you guys feel

Sephirah Geburah:: When do you plan on having "Hit in the head by heavy metal" available to the masses?! I would love nothing more than to read your wisdom on music!

Jeremy1952:: I'm guessing he said, we're gonna have a war, and you can't stop me, neener neener neener

howbloom:: about the elephant in the room

howbloom:: the war

Chris OConnor:: Howard - I feel that if we don't address this problem we will pay for it dearly

MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: I'm hoping it goes perfectly and the Iraqis love us

pctacitus:: it's a risk, but it may pay off in the long run

MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: I suspect it's gonna be a bit messier

howbloom:: do you want the bloomean view?

Jeremy1952:: I think it is essentially a holy war;

pctacitus:: yes

Chris OConnor:: Howard - please....yes

Jeremy1952:: I think bush is reintroducing...

howbloom:: this is a necessary war

MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: I might not be so worried if someone other than a
fundamentalist Christian were in office

Jeremy1952:: but I'll wait

pctacitus:: how so?

howbloom:: we have three choices ahead of us

Chris OConnor:: Howard - I think it is too

howbloom:: a pax americana

howbloom:: a world ruled by America

howbloom:: a pax sinica

howbloom:: a world ruled by china

howbloom:: or a mad max nightmare

MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: you mean a world run by multinational corporations through
america

howbloom:: the possible end of the human race

howbloom:: whatever

pctacitus:: I'll take option #1

howbloom:: that's another issue

howbloom:: and an important one

Chris OConnor:: Howard - thats what I fear....an end to the human species

Jeremy1952:: I'm all for rule by america... by an ethical, moral america

howbloom:: in three to five years some of the most insane people in the world

Jeremy1952:: I dont' think its another issue at all

Chris OConnor:: Howard - a regression to the Dark Ages or worse

howbloom:: will have nuculur weapons

Johnny Neuron joined

howbloom:: jeremy, it's an important issue that we can discuss

Chris OConnor:: hey brad - welcome

Jeremy1952:: The issue is, what are we becoming, in persuit of elusive "safety"?

MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: I fear the mythology of End Times will influence Bush to refuse to help the peace process in Israel. Anyone who signs a peace treaty there is the antichrist according to a large number of Bush supporters.

Jeremy1952:: The principles of cooperation.... we are a Defector with a capital D.

howbloom:: yes, one of the bloom books that's been waiting in the computer since 1985 is called

MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: why would those people be deterred by us imposing regime change on one country though?

howbloom:: the return of the middle ages

pctacitus:: tell us about it

Jeremy1952:: The norms of civilization do not inculde atacking foreign countries

howbloom:: hang on while I read what you've all said, there's more on why this is a necessary war

MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: they do now, jer

Jeremy1952:: Yes.. return to the middle ages... and Bush is leading the charge

howbloom:: we can't just impose regime change

Jeremy1952:: All this jibber jabber about god in every speach

MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: Bush's christian hubris frightens me...it's not just the
hawkishness, it's the "God on our side" thing.

Chris OConnor:: Howard - wow

howbloom:: here's how the evolution of ever larger social forms of organization work

howbloom:: they come together ironically on the basis of a monopoly of force

howbloom:: the nation state for example

howbloom:: originally evolved

Chris OConnor:: ok

howbloom:: because of a new megaweapon

howbloom:: the cannon

MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: how about a new organism transcending nations?

howbloom:: and because monarchs were able to

MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: I feel like I belong to something multinational and organic

howbloom:: monopolize cannonry

Chris OConnor:: How could they do that?

howbloom:: as a consequence the kings could batter down the previously impregnable walls

cinnamon321 joined

MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: how do you monopolize bioweapons?

Jeremy1952:: That's part of it. But nation states are inherently more productive than their predescessors

howbloom:: of nobles who had their own private armies

Jeremy1952:: I think the weapons follow the organization, not the other way 'round

howbloom:: monopoly of power led to a larger peace

Chris OConnor:: Howard - you must read like a maniac to be so well educated in so many subjects. I suggest you join BookTalk

Chris OConnor:: Hey cinnamon

cinnamon321:: hi

howbloom:: lemme continue

Chris OConnor:: ok

howbloom:: it's a long thought

Chris OConnor:: ok

howbloom:: we're where Europe was in 1905

howbloom:: the Kaiser was working like hell

MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: I suspect centralization of power will break down at some
point and an emergent, transcendent "species identity" will come up

howbloom:: to take the huge economic power his country had built up

howbloom:: and turn it into weaponry that would allow him to outdo

howbloom:: the empire-making machinery

howbloom:: he'd seen at the age of four

howbloom:: when he went to visit his grandmother

howbloom:: queen victoria

Sephirah Geburah:: Howard - With all your jaw dropping credentials, have you ever considered joining any sort of position in government so you can change the beast from the inside?

howbloom:: but his weaponry would be more advanced

howbloom:: than what grandma had

Chris OConnor:: Good question Sephirah

howbloom:: because his nation was sprinitng ahead

howbloom:: the bottom line is this

howbloom:: if Europe had flattened a bit of Germany in 1905

MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: I'd rather be a musician than a politician. People respect musicians

howbloom:: the war that entailed would have been over in six months

howbloom:: instead, there were peace movements

MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: is that an argument for overkill though?

howbloom:: cries for negotiatiation

howbloom:: and when the war came, it lasted what seemed like forever

Chris OConnor:: yes, it sure did

Jeremy1952:: Howard, when iraq left its borders, it was squashed like a bug

howbloom:: instead of losing 200,000 lives--a terrible, terrible thing

MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: in hindsight, killing hitler at birth would have been a moral act...

howbloom:: the world lost over 20 million

Jeremy1952:: And if it tries "empire buliding" again, it will be squashed again.

howbloom:: over 19 million lives could have been saved

howbloom:: if there had been a preemptive war

Jeremy1952:: There is no question that Hitler should not have been appeased, when he began to attack.

howbloom:: the same thing came up in 1936

Jeremy1952:: I don't want to live in a world of "preemptive wars", howard.

howbloom:: when Hitler took over Czechoslovakia

MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: I worry that we're going to apply "brute force" to a problem requiring finesse

Chris OConnor:: Bloom - I see your logic...what you are calling for takes strength and foresight

howbloom:: the world cried out for diplomacy

howbloom:: for peace

Jeremy1952:: It is the meta-norms of civilzation that ultimately improve humanity

ZombieHatesYou joined

Chris OConnor:: Hey Zombie

howbloom:: for salving germany's wounds, addressing its legitimate concerns

MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: yeah, game theory gets complex here..it might not work to apply lessons from the past in a linear way to the present...

howbloom:: in 1936 hitler was bluffing

pctacitus:: This is basic game theory for politics

howbloom:: he didn't have the military force to back up his deeds

Chris OConnor:: Michael - I'm sure there are similarities

ZombieHatesYou:: Hey

howbloom:: he had, instead, pacifists and peace movements

howbloom:: and a propaganda machine

MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: I don't see this as nazi germany...it's more like a tentacled monster

howbloom:: if the west had taken him on

pctacitus:: but there's always someone irrational who wants war

Jeremy1952:: Exactly. And by running "god" up his flagpole, Bush is defecting from the game

howbloom:: in 1936 it would have been a two month war

ZachSylvanus joined

howbloom:: instead it was a war that killed over 20 million

ZachSylvanus:: sorry I'm late

pctacitus:: even though you gain more from peaceful cooperation

MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: do you think we'll have to bomb north korea too?

Jeremy1952:: So, who else attacks whom, once we open the floodgates?

howbloom:: preemptive war, that hateful phrase

Chris OConnor:: Pctactitus - True, but this war doesn't seem to be such a wat

Chris OConnor:: Hey Zach

howbloom:: once again could have saved tens of millions of lives

howbloom:: this time around it won't be so easy

Jeremy1952:: You have just justified attackign anyone you think is really reaaly bad...
which means that the arabs are entirley justified

howbloom:: the weapons will be nuclear

Jeremy1952:: in attacking the US and isreael, right?

howbloom:: they already are

MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: I think our morale will be greatly damaged if we do things in the wrong way...it's not just power that is a factor, it's what forms of power we can accept using with a clean conscience

pctacitus:: This war resembles what Phillip Bobbit calls the Long War

Chris OConnor:: Yes, I'd like your opinion on N. Korea...I am rather comfortable in our ability to deal with Iraq.

Jeremy1952:: Becuase they think we are really really bad...

howbloom:: someone has to assert a primacy, a monopoly of power

MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: to me, it's like a cancer. You can't cut out the tumor...you have to use something subtl

howbloom:: or we will have nuclear weapons hurled at us from Pakistan, from

howbloom:: Libya, from

MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: saddam is more like a tumor, but al qaeda is something else

pctacitus:: it will keep going until all opposing ideas are crushed completely

howbloom:: Korea

MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: but how does asserting power prevent anything?

howbloom:: and enough nuclear weapons being tossed around in the Mediterranean area

NaddiaAoC joined

MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: if biological weapons become cheap and available to groups without states?

Jeremy1952:: Yes. Bush had skilllfully distracted milllions from the fact that he is powerless against the real enemy

Chris OConnor:: Someone has to play the role of the Alpha male...in the pecking order

howbloom:: to wipe out humanity

NaddiaAoC:: Hi folks

howbloom:: yes

Chris OConnor:: Hey Cheryl

howbloom:: the alpha male is the key to social peace

MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: I see everyone reacting to an apocalyptic fantasy and accelerating it in the process

Chris OConnor:: Bloom - I think I'm in agreement with you

Jeremy1952:: So do what israel did... we have intelligence that they are building a breeder reactor? Bomb the damn thing

howbloom:: and he uses force and persuasion and caring to win his place

howbloom:: another example, two

Sephirah Geburah:: Oh! Michaelangelo.. Excellent last comment...

Jeremy1952:: Ah, persuasion. Now that would be nice

howbloom:: to assert his primacy, Alexander the Great utterly destroyed a city or two

MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: so do you think the US, by playing alpha male, can inspire Arab alpha males to suppress terrorism in their own countries?

howbloom:: it was hateful

howbloom:: morally disgusting

Chris OConnor:: Howard - But the Alpha male must have a well-defined code of ethics

howbloom:: but it worked

MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: there was a movie about the president destroying Baghdad to send a signal

howbloom:: and Pericles ushered in the Golden Age of Athens with an atrocity

Jeremy1952:: We already destroyed "a city or two", Howard.

MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: but I'm not sure we'd be safe after that. States would avoid using nukes...but individual groups?

pctacitus:: Deterrence, good flick

howbloom:: flattening a city that tried to wiggle out of the Athenian league

Jeremy1952:: Remember Hiroshima and Nagasaki?

MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: it might split the american culture in half

howbloom:: now we have to do that not because

MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: and cause a civil war here

Jeremy1952:: The firebombing of Dresden?

howbloom:: Iraq is a huge menace, it's not

MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: I think if we used nukes against a city, it would split our society down the middle

Chris OConnor:: Michael - I think what Howard believes is that we must behave like the lead dog and demand our way...and self police our behaviors

howbloom:: but because we have to do something that sounds childish and stupid

MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: I understand the theory

howbloom:: we have to set an example

MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: it's something I've thought about before

howbloom:: an example Kim Jung Il

howbloom:: will pay attention to

MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: we have to be the craziest nigga on the block.

Chris OConnor:: Jeremy - this is true

MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: that's the theory

howbloom:: an example Osama will pay attention to

MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: how does this work in the inner city though?

howbloom:: that Quaddafi will pay attention to

Jeremy1952:: Oh yea, Osama's paying attention.

Chris OConnor:: Howard - exactly...he is scaring the hell out of me

MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: the math might be similar, use power in gangs as a model

howbloom:: the messagi is this--disarm or we will disarm you

Jeremy1952:: Like the attack on Afghanistan made him stop, right?

MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: what if we can't find you and you're suicidal?

howbloom:: ok, I have been so busy typing I haven't been able to read

Chris OConnor:: Jeremy - they forced him to run...they have disempowered him to a degree

ZachSylvanus:: I'm tempted to think that we don't have much to worry about from Korea, because of China

Jeremy1952:: And the message to ther rest of the world is: we can no longer be trusted to play by the rules

howbloom:: give me two minutes to read what you've said, ok?

Sephirah Geburah:: Everybody take 2!! Go get a soda or some water!

MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: sure

pctacitus:: ok

Chris OConnor:: Bloom - sounds good

Chris OConnor:: This will make an awesome transcript

Chris OConnor:: LOL Sephirah

pctacitus:: a little disjointed though

Jeremy1952:: We responded to his attack; we took out ten of his people for every one of ours

MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: When you're done reading, I'll share a flash poem I made with words from Global Brain...you have the flash plugin?

Chris OConnor:: I am very afraid of N. Korea right now.

Chris OConnor:: Michael - OMG

Glory Matthews joined

ZachSylvanus:: I don't believe China will allow N. Korea to do anything drastic

Jeremy1952:: Idont' think he will learn a single thing from the US attacking a soverign nation, except maybe that he was right

MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: I've decided to be afraid of everything. It seems prudent

howbloom:: i'm afraid of korea too

Chris OConnor:: Hey Glory - you're late. Please stand in the corner for 30 minutes. Thanks.

howbloom:: yes thye poem, i do have flash

MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: www.soulaquarium.net/art/bloom/

Johnny Neuron:: My take is North Korea is just saber-rattling

Chris OConnor:: N. Korea is behaving irrationally...without provocation

Chris OConnor:: Johnny - I sure hope

pctacitus:: game theory again

Johnny Neuron:: They don't want to be blasted to the stone age

Glory Matthews:: Chris, pfffft! You should be honored, I just got back from the hospital.

Jeremy1952:: Without provoction? I hardly think so

ZachSylvanus:: Without provocation?

MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: read the other day that Daniel Ellsberg was a game theorist when he worked at RAND

Jeremy1952:: First of all, we promised not to demonize his country

Jeremy1952:: then asshole Bush comes out with the "axis of evil" slap in the face

Chris OConnor:: Michael - very cool!

ZachSylvanus:: The agreement was, they shut down their nuclear reactors, we send them fuel.

ZachSylvanus:: We stopped sending them fuel

howbloom:: who made that poem--ah

howbloom:: michael

Jeremy1952:: Then we prepare for a war of agression against iraq; what are the other nations

ZombieHatesYou:: That was very cool, Huahua.

MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: it's my fault

ZombieHatesYou:: Err...Michael.

howbloom:: it is, excuse my language, utterly fucking gorgeous

howbloom:: m8i

MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: thanks zomb

MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: thanks howard

Jeremy1952:: who we , rather bush, deliberately insults supposed to make of that?

howbloom:: michael, what do you do for a lving?

Johnny Neuron:: Jeremy: true, but I think NK has gone a little farther than Bush in terms of propaganda

MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: I'm a budding web designer

howbloom:: I want to do more things like that myself

Chris OConnor:: Jeremy - Yes, this is what triggered the N. Koreans to do what they're doing...but it is irrational. Bush had no idea they would act so crazy

howbloom:: I've turned the whole history of the cosmos into poetry

MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: waiting for my girlfriend to move here from sydney so we can start a business

Chris OConnor:: LOL Bloom

Jeremy1952:: Law of unindtended consequences

MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: howard--I'd be happy to help you out with flash

pctacitus:: NK is more like Sparta

Jeremy1952:: A good reason to be cautious

pctacitus:: closed off

howbloom:: several musicians are talking about making it into music--Joan Jett and David Was

Johnny Neuron:: NK has a very long history of doing this sort of thing

MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: my email is on my site if you ever want to contact me

Jeremy1952:: How , by the way, are they acting crazy?

howbloom:: and I want to do a Big Bang Tango stage show

Chris OConnor:: Jeremy - yes

MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: I'd like to see what you're talking about howard

Chris OConnor:: Jeremy - hind sight is always 20/20

howbloom:: what you've done, michael, is a step in that direction

howbloom:: a very powerful step

MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: sounds interesting...it reminds me of a book I read a while back, but I forgot the title

MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: thank you

howbloom:: have you seen, no of course you haven't its private

Jeremy1952:: We are threatening Iraq; we put NK and iraq in the same cateogory; they are preparing an nuclear defense

MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: that's the sort of thing I'd like to do more of

Jeremy1952:: against a nuclear power that has gone mad.

MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: lol

MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: well then

Johnny Neuron:: Is it defense or provocation?

Jeremy1952:: It is the U.S. that is acting "crazy"

howbloom:: howardbloom.net/attraction_repulsion

howbloom:: ?

Chris OConnor:: To those that don't know, Howard Bloom is famous in the music industry and worked with Rolling Stone magazine and stars like Prince and Michael Jackson

MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: hey, it worked this time

Johnny Neuron:: Sending missles over the ocean on the day of the S Korean presidential inauguration

ZachSylvanus:: The thing that concerns me most about this series of wars on evil is the patriot acts

Johnny Neuron:: Virtually shooting down our fighter jet

howbloom:: well, I was often in the offices of Rolling Stone but I didn't work for the magazine

Chris OConnor:: Zach - explain

Jeremy1952:: Well, it isn't hindsight yet; the war hasn't started yet. Forsight: we are fucking up the world

MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: I had an acid trip in my 20's that would have made a great movie. It had science rap as the sountrack

ZachSylvanus:: The patriot acts are ostensibly to protect our freedoms

ZachSylvanus:: And ourselves

howbloom:: our best alley right now in defending our freedoms from the patriot act

howbloom:: is a man who has bush by the balls

Chris OConnor:: Jeremy - I disagree, but sure hope I'm not wrong.

howbloom:: Pat Robertson, my old nemesis

Chris OConnor:: Pat deserves to be in prison

ZachSylvanus:: The Patriot Act 2 involves overturning Katz vs.....the federal government, I think

Johnny Neuron:: Really Howard? How so?

MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: just tell people Ashcroft ordered a buttload of microchips

ZachSylvanus:: er, think

Sephirah Geburah:: - Howard - If you could give one piece of advice for someone seriously entering the music industry, what would it be?

Chris OConnor:: anyone who dumbs down the general population is a criminal

howbloom:: Pat Robertson made two key statements a month or two ago

howbloom:: one

Jeremy1952:: That's the other thing that scares the shit out of me; suppose we win the peace as well as the war... but have

howbloom:: look at the violence in the Koran, stop papering it over

pctacitus:: arrest all the teachers then

howbloom:: and two

Jeremy1952:: turned into a theocracy by then

cinnamon321:: I agree Chris.

NaddiaAoC:: Yeah, the general population is dumb enough.

howbloom:: our civil rights have never been in greater danger

Chris OConnor:: Jeremy - Yes, I am worried about that too

ZachSylvanus:: Howard, that's not really a viable argument

Johnny Neuron:: Look at all the violence in the Bible

Jeremy1952:: If we destroy our liberties to win a war, what have we won?

MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: the bit of poetry at the end of your attraction page is verra nice

howbloom:: we must protect them for all we're worth

Chris OConnor:: Cinnamon

howbloom:: yes, the bible is one of the most violent books around

ZachSylvanus:: We can't argue that they're evil because of their bible

Chris OConnor:: Bloom - I very much agree

MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: I want an army of mimes at my disposal

ZachSylvanus:: Ours isn't any better

pctacitus:: there is a book on the Battles of the Bible

cinnamon321:: The general population is ignorant, not stupid

howbloom:: so is the founding story of western civilization--the Iliad and the Odyssey

Chris OConnor:: lol Michael

howbloom:: and so is the founding story of inida

howbloom:: the Mahavarata

Chris OConnor:: Bloom - I've only read some of both

pctacitus:: don't forget Hesiod Howard

howbloom:: all are filled with genocide

MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: how do you maintain control in a fluid chaotic system?

howbloom:: with the demonization of other human beings

Johnny Neuron:: Howard: how do you feel about the posturing the US is taking in
relation to the other great powers such as Germany, France and Russia?

Chris OConnor:: Julian James posits that our species lacked consciousness at the time of both pieces

Jeremy1952:: I've found cascade works well, Michael

howbloom:: systems are hierarchical at every level of the cosmos

MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: I want to get at the root of projecting evil in all people...

MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: jeremy--explain

howbloom:: animate and pre-animate

Chris OConnor:: yes

ZombieHatesYou:: I'm quite hestitant to call Pat Roberston an ally of mine. I think he's got other things moving him...Things I'd personally not want around me.

MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: what cascade are we initiating exactly?

ZachSylvanus:: afk a few minutes....

howbloom:: and right now we need what some of you guys have said

Jeremy1952:: To control a chaotic fluid system. Pour in a little cascade.

MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: the end-timers scare me in general

Chris OConnor:: what was that?

howbloom:: the craziest niggah on the block

Chris OConnor:: hmmm

howbloom:: the alpha male

Chris OConnor:: ahh

MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: cascade bleach? lol

howbloom:: on a global basis

Chris OConnor:: explain Howard

howbloom:: so we can continue an incredible progress we've made

NaddiaAoC:: Me too, Michael.

MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: when rock stars rule the world, we'll be fine

howbloom:: via cell phones and the WWW

MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: politicians trying to be rock stars doesn't work for me

howbloom:: we are so global it's amazing

howbloom:: and we're about to become even more so

MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: I got a book called Smart Mobs...need to read that

Chris OConnor:: Howard - if we could conquer the barbarians our species could do incredible things...ohh..and also conquer mysticism

howbloom:: my friends who marched for peace a week ago

cinnamon321:: *laughs at the thought of a politician trying to be a rock star*

Jeremy1952:: Yea! David Bowie for president! Vote for Clinton 'cause he plays the sax

howbloom:: were amazed and exalted

howbloom:: by the fact that they were marching simultaneously in 60 cities

MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: cinnamon, they DO. Politicians use PR consultants who study what makes entertainers popular...then they apply that to themselves.

Chris OConnor:: Howard - mob mentality

MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: nodding at howard

howbloom:: they were living off the fruit that hierarchical violence produces

howbloom:: peace

MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: that's the premise of Smart Mobs

howbloom:: relax the hierarchy too greatly

MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: groups organizing spontaneously

NaddiaAoC:: LOL Jeremy

Chris OConnor:: Bloom - wow...excellent point

howbloom:: and we will have an end to cell phones the www electricity

howbloom:: social organization

cinnamon321:: Michael, I know, I was merely having a thought of the stereotypical poltician in kiss garb singing.

howbloom:: stores and groceries

howbloom:: let me tell you the worst case scenario

howbloom:: or one of them

pctacitus:: ok

howbloom:: oki?

MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: I was wondering for a while if the species has some kind of spontaneous organizing program that causes a breaking open of the tribal identity and a larger sense of family

MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: ok

howbloom:: you are Osama

MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: lol

ZombieHatesYou:: I knew Michael was Osama.

Chris OConnor:: Howard - I'm in complete agreement. I'm a bit of a pessimist though...and fear we will never succeed in controlling the rampant idiocy of the masses. I feel our downfall is inevitable

MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: no, don't go blowing anything up for me thanks

howbloom:: you know that you are building your stardom, your influence

howbloom:: via pr

ladyfractal joined

ladyfractal:: Good evening all!

howbloom:: and you know that the biggest pr stunt you've pulled

MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: hi fractal

Johnny Neuron:: I tend to agree Chris

ZombieHatesYou:: Hey Frac

howbloom:: is the destruction of the world trade center

cinnamon321:: hey frac

howbloom:: ok?

pctacitus:: yes

howbloom:: following this?

pctacitus:: yes

MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: he wants a revolution in pakistan

Chris OConnor:: ok

ladyfractal:: Hey Michael! Hey Zombie.

Chris OConnor:: I'm with ya

howbloom:: your next step is this

Chris OConnor:: Hey Ladyfractal

Jeremy1952:: Howard is expoinding "worst case scenario", fractal

ladyfractal:: Hi Chris.

howbloom:: nuke twelve major cities in the united states

ladyfractal:: thanks jeremy.

NaddiaAoC:: Hi Lady

howbloom:: basically eliminate the usa

Chris OConnor:: Howard - we would be in the Dark Ages overnight

howbloom:: turn it into a glowing wasteland to set an example

howbloom:: to show that you are Osama the Great

howbloom:: that God is all powerful

Chris OConnor:: And this "worst case scenario" is a very real possibility

pctacitus:: that would crash the world economy overnight

howbloom:: and that nonbelievers should tremble at your feet

Chris OConnor:: pctactus - very true

Johnny Neuron:: Israeli newspapers reported this morning that Osama bin Laden has been captured

pctacitus:: kill tens of millions

howbloom:: you do not have to worry about nuclear fallout or nuclear winter

howbloom:: why?

Sephirah Geburah:: Ha! That could never happen! We where promised to have a missle defense shield! (hehe... Yes, im being sarcastic)

ladyfractal:: johnny: that hasn't been confirmed anyplace

Jeremy1952:: if he could have done it, he would have done it. No way he would have settled for jet fuel if he could have gotten hold of nukes

howbloom:: because you have Allah on your side

Johnny Neuron:: lady: true

howbloom:: and to quote one of Osama's alleys, this earth

Chris OConnor:: Johnny - Hmm...I'll believe that wheh I see his head on a stake

howbloom:: is a mere speck of dust in Allah's eye

MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: Alternatively: you are a fundamentalist Christian with the best of motives...things get sticky and you feel compelled to use a nuclear first strike...

howbloom:: it is expendable

pctacitus:: if you die you go to paradise anyway

howbloom:: next step

MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: as believe the right wing christians...God will give us a new earth

pctacitus:: right?

Chris OConnor:: Howard - You're making me want to read the Koran/Quran

howbloom:: in Islam these days the big subject of conversation is the reconquest of Europe

Chris OConnor:: ...just to understand

howbloom:: you see, God promised that Islam would triumph

howbloom:: in two major places

Jeremy1952:: Yea, the difference, as Michael implied, is that Bush actually has nukes

ladyfractal:: howard-- how dangerous do you think it is that all three monotheistic faiths seem to be driving all-out for war and *at least* two of those three have nukes?

howbloom:: Constantinople and Rome

Chris OConnor:: Howard - and the Koran clearly states that conquest of infidels is Islams destiny

MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: book religions really poisoned the planet...I keep telling them it's idolatry...but they just...don't...lisetn

AvatarofPower joined

Chris OConnor:: Avatar!

Chris OConnor:: Welcome

howbloom:: it took 700 years before the prediction about constantinople fell, but allah came through, right?

ladyfractal:: michael: no, of course not, they're too busy reading their holy books

AvatarofPower:: hiya chris

howbloom:: and now allah is bound to deliver Rome

howbloom:: which means all of Europe

howbloom:: nuke the us and

howbloom:: europe will capitulate

MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: this allah character needs therapy

DocNancy:: Howard, you need to write all this down and publish it.

howbloom:: it will beg for surivival

Jeremy1952:: Osama is one dangerous sonofabtich. Terrorists are an infection on the planet. No argument there... so

pctacitus:: we need to pull a St Jerome and we write the religious texts then

howbloom:: and be willing to live in justic and purity

howbloom:: according to god's law sharia

Jeremy1952:: we should be fighting terrorists, not picking a target we think we can hit, and ignoring the enemy.

howbloom:: and as part of an islamic imperium that's global

MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: women will be forced to veil their nipples in public (

Johnny Neuron:: Howard: not all Muslims would agree with these tactics

howbloom:: here's another important bit of Osama's thinking

MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: Girls Gone Wild will be a thing of the past...

Johnny Neuron:: Some are far more liberal and peaceful than that

howbloom:: nation states are a barbarous western creation

Johnny Neuron:: Dare I say most

howbloom:: god says that the umma is universal

MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: empathy is universal

howbloom:: it is a continuous planet

howbloom:: a planet without boundaries

MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: it is a conscious planet

Chris OConnor:: Jeremy - don't you think Saddam has something planned with his WoMD?

MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: osama is on to something

ladyfractal:: howard: Oh I see where this is going...which means a Pax Islam

howbloom:: living under God's own law

Jeremy1952:: Don't know, Chris.

MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: chris, a trapped animal will do some crazy things

howbloom:: national boundaries separating afghanistan, egypt, syria, malaysia, these are artificial slices

MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: I'm wondering if Bush is unconsciously trying to provoke attacks against us

howbloom:: designed to weakine the ummah

howbloom:: in other worlds Osama

Jeremy1952:: I think the message should be this: use one, try to use one, and you get slapped like a mosquito

Johnny Neuron:: I think the key might be for the US to allign with the more moderate side of the Muslim world

MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: use a nuke to kill a mosquito and you may face impeachment

howbloom:: osama's interpretation of Islam makes the world one global caliphate

howbloom:: Osama, the wireless warrior

pctacitus:: what moderate side?

Jeremy1952:: But the message that we attack regardless?

howbloom:: has a clear, clear vision

howbloom:: of a global new world order

pctacitus:: Where is it?

MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: I believe in a species unconscious program that will overrule the divisions of nations and religions...but whether that can stop destruction is another thing

pctacitus:: I haven't seen it.

Sephirah Geburah:: Damnit... Why in the hell cant we have people like Howard for President?!?!? (sigh)

Johnny Neuron:: There is definately a moderate portion of Muslims who are opposed to terrorism

howbloom:: so we have the choices of living under an islamic hegemony, one in which most of us here would be dead

Johnny Neuron:: I've talked with some of them

howbloom:: and pax amercana

Chris OConnor:: Jeremy - Saddam is a sick bastard who has lined up his own people and gunned them down....and poisoneed them

Jeremy1952:: Oh my god, Sephirah, no way!

Johnny Neuron:: Some are US allies

howbloom:: or a pax sinica

MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: the limbic systems of the world are feeding back

NaddiaAoC:: LOL Sephirah

ladyfractal:: howard: Laid out like that, it certainly seems to be a very clear vision. I have a question for you...

Sephirah Geburah:: hehe

pctacitus:: like Saudi arabia?

howbloom:: and those of us who try to stop this war as we did in 1905

Jeremy1952:: Yes, Chris, this is true.

Jeremy1952:: And?

howbloom:: and in 1936

howbloom:: will have blood on our hands

Chris OConnor:: Jeremy - we owe it to the Iraqi people to remove the tyrant

Jeremy1952:: Oh bullshit.

Johnny Neuron:: So you are for a war with Iraq Howard?

howbloom:: the blood of between 200 million and six billion human beings

MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: that's a moral inversion though...the ones who kill are heroes and the ones who don't kill are killers...

howbloom:: that's my speech, now let me read what you

howbloom:: 've been saying

ladyfractal:: howard: okay

Chris OConnor:: Ladyfractal - what was the question?

MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: what if we trigger something just as bad as what we're trying to avoid? we'll have blood on our hands then too

Jeremy1952:: There are dictators all over the world; we've defended much worse, time and again.

howbloom:: I know Jeremy is going to totally disagree

NaddiaAoC:: Chris: Are you saving this chat periodically?

Chris OConnor:: Micahel - should we freeze out of fear?

MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: what if the lessons we're learning from history fail to work in a global system that approaches viscosity?

Chris OConnor:: Cheryl - yep, no worries

ladyfractal:: chris: well, my first question has to do with the three monotheistic religions, two of which are *confirmed* members of the nuclear club goign to war.

MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: linear thinking may not be the trick here

NaddiaAoC:: Ok good

howbloom:: To answer Johnny's question yes, bring on this war as rapidly as possible

MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: we may be playing chess on a Go board

howbloom:: despite the fact that I hate war

cinnamon321:: according to mass media reports i see that iraqis do not like saddams leadership, but since he is a dictator many of them fear to speak out unless they leave the country. perhaps if we do not go to war they will overthrow saddam themselves.

Johnny Neuron:: I agree

howbloom:: no killing of a single human being is justified

ZachSylvanus:: back, sorry

howbloom:: Saddam is a distraction, an example, that's all

Jeremy1952:: To say "war on iraq is good for iraqis" ignores the little detail of the 100,000 or more of them who will DIE in the war.

ladyfractal:: chris: My second question has to do with with people in the West not understanding that Islam is a *fundamentally* different culture/civilization and not one most of us would feel good living under.

Johnny Neuron:: But I feel that the US must do it's best to not make this a "war against Muslims"

DocNancy:: yes, but how does oil enter into all this, and it does.

Jeremy1952:: If they wanted to die, they could oppose Saddam themselves

ladyfractal:: chris: but I'll hold that one

Johnny Neuron:: Boundries must be set; demarcations made

howbloom:: hang on a second, let's discuss the iraqis who will di

Chris OConnor:: Cinnamon - the problem is every time a coup is attempted Saddam makes such an example of the perpetrators that the whole nation lives in mortal fear of even appearing to be anti-Saddam

ZombieHatesYou:: Perhaps I am not following this like I should be, but I'm not sure how bringing on the war with Iraq as fast as possible will in turn harm Osama's 'vision.'

howbloom:: saddam has deliberately put his weapons under schools and hospitals

howbloom:: one story out of England says that he hired

AvatarofPower:: Jeremy.... how could they possibly stand up to the current iraqi regime

MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: so will the arab world blame us for civilian deaths?

howbloom:: western experts to build a subway system under baghdad and is using it to

Chris OConnor:: Jeremy - But 100,000 dead now to save 4 million in the long run. I'm not saying I agree, but I think this is Howards point

ladyfractal:: michael: you *bet* they will

MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: will the iraqis really be "dancing in the street"?

Jeremy1952:: Well, they can't. I'm not saying they should. I'm saying, they'll be just as dead if we kill them

howbloom:: shuttle his weapons of mass destruction around on trains

ZombieHatesYou:: Of course, Michael...We're the Big Bad Guy...

MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: Chris--but how accurate IS that math?

Johnny Neuron:: What are the chances of the US using nuclear weapons against Iraq?

MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: will we become the evil we fear? will our culture survive that?

AvatarofPower:: very, very, very, very slim, Johnny

howbloom:: a contact of mine in the State Department, an Islam expert who has spent most of his adult life in Islamic nations

MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: moral ambiguity broke a lot of heads open in the 60's

Jeremy1952:: The thing is, chris, the 100,000 dead now is almost a sure thing; the assertiion that less willdie in the long run

Chris OConnor:: Michael - Approximately 87.3% of all statistics are made up on the spot

howbloom:: says that the bomb shelter filled with civilians we devastated

cinnamon321:: lol Chris

Jeremy1952:: with the war than without it is extremely uncertain

howbloom:: was a cover for the bunkers below

ladyfractal:: johnny: depends upon whether or not the Iraqi military uses them on US troops and how serious teh casualties are from such an attack.

MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: I worry about what our actions will do to our culture. The "culture wars" could become volatile.

howbloom:: can I throw in another fact about the ultimate Osama scenario?

pctacitus:: ok

Sephirah Geburah:: Yep!

howbloom:: which can happen with or without osama

Chris OConnor:: Please do

howbloom:: pakistan

howbloom:: has the Islamic bomb

ladyfractal:: johnny: if the Iraqis use them and if there are high casualties, US doctrine
dictates answering WoMD in kind

Chris OConnor:: Islamis bomb?

Chris OConnor:: Hmmm

howbloom:: the nuclear bomb all Islam feels is God's gift

Chris OConnor:: thats punny

howbloom:: to the Islamic world, not just to one country

MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: we need to arrest this God/Allah

howbloom:: Pakistan also has

howbloom:: three submarines

Chris OConnor:: Michael - I agree

howbloom:: very special submarines

NaddiaAoC:: Michael: I agree, but I think you'll have a problem finding big enough handcuffs.

ZachSylvanus:: What's your point?

howbloom:: stealth submarines, next generation submarines

Chris OConnor:: Nuke subs?

ladyfractal:: michael: would LOVE to go back and time and slap whoever thought up monotheism upside their foolish head

ZachSylvanus:: It's an arms race, Howard, you should know that

ZachSylvanus:: Keep up or fall behind

MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: you mentioned these scenarios before...I'm wondering what the rest of us chess pieces should be doing in the midst of this global chess/go game?

howbloom:: built with French technology

ZachSylvanus:: It's merely an evolution of civilizations

howbloom:: and it has the shipyard to build more

MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: yeah, monotheists don't play well with others

ZachSylvanus:: Nobody wants to be the losing party, giving in to selection

howbloom:: these are missile carriers and pakistan also has

howbloom:: medium range ballistic missiles

howbloom:: now imagine that Osam is dead or arrested

Chris OConnor:: Howard - are you proposing we add Pakistan to the "Axis of Evil?"

MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: most of us won't be able to influence all this very much...but what kinds of things can we do with our little bit of the superorganism?

howbloom:: and you are a fierce Osama

Chris OConnor:: Ok

howbloom:: fan

howbloom:: a protege

MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: Chris--they will after Musharraf gets assassinated

ladyfractal:: howard: are you saying that it is no longer a question of "if" but a question of "when" the united states has a city evaporated?

Jeremy1952:: (the very protege that the U.S. helped him recruit, but I digress)

howbloom:: you lead his wireless warriors in something that is likely to happen any day now

NaddiaAoC:: Monotheism is like King of the Hill. My God can beat up your god.

howbloom:: the overthrow of Pervez Musharref

Chris OConnor:: Jeremy - you're right though

howbloom:: you now have three subs with 10,000 mile ranges

MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: monotheism ate my homework

howbloom:: you can now nuke any city in America

NaddiaAoC:: LOL Michael

Johnny Neuron:: Forgive my skeptical ide: but this is the "ultimate" Osama scenario...not the likely scenario; Pakistan remains a strong US ally

howbloom:: either from the Atlantic coast

Chris OConnor:: 10k is long enough to hit anywhere from the oceans

howbloom:: or from the pacific coast

howbloom:: yes

ladyfractal:: johnny: strong is not the word that I think I would use

Chris OConnor:: 27k is world circumference I believe

MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: I say we nuke our own cities in defiance.

Sephirah Geburah:: Michaelangelo! You bring up a great question of "What can we do" I suggest we base a long term forum discusion around that.... There are so many beautiful and powerful minds gathered on this website... We just need to establish some goals and focus...

Chris OConnor:: Michael - omg

howbloom:: and Osams says "we love death more than you love life"

Jeremy1952:: And I think it supports my side more than howards anyway... to show that other countries are dangerous; yes;

MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: I agree seph

howbloom:: you westerners are degenerates

Chris OConnor:: Howard - exactly...this scares the shit out of me

Johnny Neuron:: It was Pakistani officials that brought in the mastermind of the 9/11 attacks

howbloom:: you turn your women into prosititutes

Jeremy1952:: that is exactly why we have to play nice... why we have to promote cooperation

howbloom:: you let them parade their legs on the streets

howbloom:: and you are foolish

ladyfractal:: johnny: Musharref is playing a very cagey political game because he thinks it will keep him in power and give him some legs against the Indians

NaddiaAoC:: LMAO Michael. You're a nut!

howbloom:: you only have two or three children per family

MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: in the middle of all these worst case scenarios, I'd like to at least play some fun games with culture

howbloom:: we treat our women properly

Sephirah Geburah:: I feel so helpless as much as I care about these issues...

Chris OConnor:: Sephirah - you have the ability to create a thread about anything you want...and I think we would all like to discuss this further

ladyfractal:: johnny: But Pakistan is an ally of convenience

MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: we treat our women properly ?

howbloom:: we veil them and keep them in the home

cinnamon321:: IMHO the problem that people have is lack of exposure to other cultures. I think if more individuals were exposed to people of different cultures and had positive experiences we wouldn't have as many problems.

howbloom:: we free them from indecency

Johnny Neuron:: But an ally nonthesless

Chris OConnor:: (Now how do we get Howard to pop in once and awhile and post? hmmm)

ladyfractal:: howard; shouldn't that be "we treat women like *property*"

pctacitus:: The horror and the implacable nature of the Wars of Religion was not only that the soldiers on each side believed Heaven awaited them if they fell in battle, they also believed that they owed it to their adversaries to send them to hell. - Ernle
Bradford, The Great Siege: Malta 1565

howbloom:: and we make them pregnant just as god wants them to be

Sephirah Geburah:: neat! I will do so

Jeremy1952:: Mabye it would be worse, cinnamon.

Sephirah Geburah:: hehe

AvatarofPower:: exactly Johnny... i think there's a serious differnece between the Islamic Fundamentalist world and the more moderate muslims

MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: howard will be magnetically attracted to our group, he cannot resist

Chris OConnor:: Cinnamon - I totally agree!

MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: he will be assimilated

howbloom:: so we have four wives with severn children each

Jeremy1952:: Maybe if the west new how fucked up islamic culture really is, there'd be more hate crimes

Johnny Neuron:: Avatar: Thank you!

Johnny Neuron:: A huge difference

howbloom:: and every mother who believes in Allah is willing to sacrifice three of her children

howbloom:: as martyrs for Allah

Sephirah Geburah:: hehehehe and our western culture ISNT f*cked up?!

AvatarofPower:: BUT... that differernce has the potential to rapidly disappear

MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: howard, have you read any of DeMause's stuff?

Jeremy1952:: Yea, the moderates who hack children's vaginas up with dullknives

Johnny Neuron:: When we slip into the fundamentalist mindset, I worry

ladyfractal:: jeremy: that isn't going to happen suga'...most college educated
Westerners have NO sense of what they are apart of or what they are tearing down

howbloom:: more than willing, she celibratses the victory of their death

ZombieHatesYou:: I think when we denounce such things as how the Muslims "treat their women," we are falling into the same trap that we are saying we despise about *them.*

howbloom:: so if we nuke you and you retaliate, it will be useless

cinnamon321:: Jeremy, Islamic culture is fucked up to us because we didnt grow up with it. American culture is fucked up to Muslims who know nothing about it.

AvatarofPower:: the moderates who hack childern's penises up, what?

MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: I heard of an interesting program that connects Israelis and Palestinians by phone

howbloom:: wipe out afghanistan, we don't care

howbloom:: we can afford to lose 200 million to 400 million people

Jeremy1952:: The lovely arabs who murder rape victims and celebrate the rapists

ladyfractal:: jeremy: when you have college-educated Westerners, decrying the Enlightenment and saying that scientific rationalism is just *one* in a number of equally valid ways of viewing the world, you know we're in trouble

howbloom:: in order to assert god's will

MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: so we threaten to nuke mecca, right?

DocNancy left

howbloom:: and to do what he has ordered us to

Johnny Neuron:: Nuke Mecca? Come on

howbloom:: torture you and annihilate you

Jeremy1952:: I reject your relativism, cinnamon. there are specific actions which are wrong.

howbloom:: two words he has used in the Koran

Chris OConnor:: Zombie - good point

cinnamon321:: Not all Arabs do. There are more liberal Arabs in many places.

MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: hey, some consultant close to Bush once talked about nuking mecca

howbloom:: any person who does not abide by those two words is a slacker

howbloom:: Allah will never forgive

howbloom:: allah demands that you fight and kill on his behalf

MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: we need to send internet porn to the Islamic world and expose fundamentalist muslims who download it

howbloom:: those who stay behind and wait

pctacitus:: such a kind deity

howbloom:: for the West to topple of its own might

ZachSylvanus:: No less kind than any deity of our own history

ZombieHatesYou:: So, I think I've got this now. This is a matter of God. They think they have God on their sides...that God will protect them. So they have no fear. Nothing we can do to them is going to deter them. Allah demands they kill the infidel...

howbloom:: will be damend and will never see the fruits of paradise

MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: the knights of the crusades killed to gain forgiveness

MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: people will do anything to feel pure

Johnny Neuron:: But Howard...among all three great monotheisms you have your right wingers and your left wingers....the left wingers have always been in a minority

howbloom:: ok, now let me read your thoughts for a bit

cinnamon321:: I do agree that they way rape victims are treated in certain Middle Eastern areas is wrong, I just think a lot of Arabs probably think it is too.

howbloom:: I've been typing my fingers off

ladyfractal:: zombie: I understand the point you are making...but I have to say that I disagree with it. It *may* be utterly imperialist for me to believe that women have a right to self-determination, but I cannot back down off of that ideal.

MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: let's all convert to islam.

Sephirah Geburah:: I remember reading a sobering exerpt in the Lucifer Principle about the Islam culture, and the sleeping giant that it is... When do you believe this giant will wake up, stretch his arms, and get some breakfast?

MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: then we can assimilate them

ZombieHatesYou:: Frac: I'm not saying I agree with how they treat their women. I am just saying that denouncing that at every turn and insisting you are right...is the same thing they are doing.

MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: seph--when we appear weakened

Johnny Neuron:: I'm not ready to brandish the Muslim world, en toto, as extremists like Bin Laden

Chris OConnor:: Howard - I am very curious if you see in Christianity that same problems that you see in Islam...

ZombieHatesYou:: We are no better than they are. It's just our ass on the line, so we must fight for what *we* think is right.

howbloom:: the giant has awakened

AvatarofPower:: Sephirah, that giant is going to wake up and realize that maybe an arm, and a foot, and a few other parts are sick and tired of its bullshit, I think...

Chris OConnor:: Howard - or is it a matter of "degree?"

MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: I woudln't brand Germans as evil...their culture just went through a crazy phase. Right now, the islamic cultures and our culture are both in a weird phase

ladyfractal:: zombie: Hmmm...perhaps.

Jeremy1952:: Of course we are better, Zombie

ZombieHatesYou:: I'm just trying to point out that while we believe they are wrong...they believe *we* are wrong. So how are we any better?

howbloom:: and is getting its strength day by day

ZombieHatesYou:: It's equal.

MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: our own fundamentalists may act up

Sephirah Geburah:: I hope Avatar

cinnamon321:: I agree Micheal

ZombieHatesYou:: Jer: No. I don't think so.

Johnny Neuron:: Good point Michael

Jeremy1952:: Because they really ARE wrong, zombie.

Chris OConnor:: Howard - and the giant is Islam?

howbloom:: look, Zombie

ZombieHatesYou:: Jer: But they don't think they are wrong. Just like we don't think we are wrong. Do you see what I am getting at?

howbloom:: I can speak osama speak because within his framework of belief he is right

MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: we need to make some muslim entertainers famous so nobody will want to see them die

howbloom:: he is not just right

howbloom:: he is courageous

Jeremy1952:: Yes, but you are wrong.

howbloom:: he is heroic

ZombieHatesYou:: Jer: 'tay.

howbloom:: he is probably the greatest idealist on this planet today

ladyfractal:: zombie: okay, I don't think its equal because they are, in fact, going against a principle of universal...truly universal...human rights. If I understand it correctly, MOST Islamic nations do not allow women to vote and do not see women as human enough to vote

MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: inside osama is a screaming infant who wants his mommy to forgive hi8m

Jeremy1952:: The wholesale repression of women is wrong. It isn't relativist. It isn't negotiable.

howbloom:: he is willing to give up his life for what he believes in

ZombieHatesYou:: Frac: Allah says that is the way it works.

ladyfractal:: zombie: Our culture went through it and our culture was *wrong* at that point.

cinnamon321:: Shakira is part Arabic, I think but everyone sees her as a Latina and she is marketed that way.

MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: I'm willing to give up his life too

Jeremy1952:: One memeber of the species does not have the right to opress and kill the other gender

howbloom:: but if that means the death of free speech, equal rights for women, toleran, pluralism

Chris OConnor:: Zombie - I do see your point.

howbloom:: cell phones

howbloom:: and computers for the masses

MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: how do you kill cell phones?

Jeremy1952:: So: they think we are wrong for pluralism. We are right, and they are wrong.

howbloom:: then I am willing to make a moral jusgement

MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: that cat's out of the bag

howbloom:: and defend the way of life I beieve in

howbloom:: period

Johnny Neuron:: So what is the solution Howard? Or IS there a solution?

Jeremy1952:: Oh shit, now me and howard are agreeing.

AvatarofPower:: hehe

MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: howard, what would you say we ordinary folks can do collectively aside from cheering Bush on?

Chris OConnor:: LOL

ladyfractal:: zombie: I understand what you are saying...but I cannot be a relativist when it comes to issues like viewing women as full-human beings. I just cannot see how there is room to negotiate on that matter.

howbloom:: if I were living in Osama's world I would never be allowe to think and write

ZombieHatesYou:: I'm not saying I am against this war business. I just want people to recognize what it's really about.

Jeremy1952:: Actually at a deeper level I think we do pretty much agree... it is tactics, not objectivs, where we differ.

howbloom:: this discussion would not be happening

howbloom:: and none of us would be waht we are today

MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: the solution is for boundaries to dissolve and a great sacrifice to show humanity why it's impossible to impose boundaries on an emergent system

Jeremy1952:: Now wait just a minute, Michael.

howbloom:: trying with all our might to contribute through our discusions, our brainstorming and our disagreements

Johnny Neuron:: And compromise?

MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: or just for people to organize and communicate across boundaries until they understand the Beast

howbloom:: the the betterment of humahnity

Chris OConnor:: Howard - you should come speak at the Atheist Alliance convention here in FL in april - Michael Shermer and Richard Dawkins will be there. Your views on Islam would make for an incredible presentation

ZombieHatesYou:: Frac: Obviously I view women as 'full human beings.' You know me. I'm always blaring about something or another. And no, I do not agree with the way the Muslim women are treated. I just think it would be better all around if people realized that *everyone* thinks they are right when it comes to this stuff.

Jeremy1952:: Where would we be if protozoans hand't imposed boundaries on their genomes?

AvatarofPower:: its called a Unified Human Intelligence, Michael

ZachSylvanus:: Howard, need I remind you that in the Islamic world, it nurtured and advanced the learning of Greece and Rome for six hundred years, until our own culture forcefully took it from them?

MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: I think westerners and arabs need to communicate on a human level as well as a strategic level

ZombieHatesYou:: Whether they are *actually* right about the issue is neither here nor there.

ladyfractal:: zombie: Okay, I see your point

AvatarofPower:: and we're working on it...

ZombieHatesYou:: 'tay.

howbloom:: Chris--I was invited to one atheist symposium

howbloom:: but I

ladyfractal:: zombie: I'm sorry I thought you were arguing a slightly different point than the one you were making

Jeremy1952:: Zombie, we KNOW everyone thinks they are right. That's why it comes
down to tactics. We need to WIN

Johnny Neuron:: Zach: these are different times, different interests

ZachSylvanus:: agreed

Chris OConnor:: Howard - they probably cannot afford you

Johnny Neuron:: different Muslims

MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: the boundaries dissolve inside so that you can understand how to prevent them from dissolving outside

howbloom:: I've been housebound with illness for fifteen years

howbloom:: and do all my appearances via video

howbloom:: or electronic means

Chris OConnor:: Howard - wow...I didn't know.

ZombieHatesYou:: Jer: But while you are so hellbent on winning, do you see why they are so hellbent on winning?

Jeremy1952:: I'm not opposed to the war because it is morally wrong, I'm opposed because it is TACTICALLY wrong.

howbloom:: they weren't up for that

ZachSylvanus:: It's not the religion that is against learning, etc., it's the leaders
LanDroid joined

MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: reality is too slow, I like internet

ZombieHatesYou:: I never said this war was morally wrong.

MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: I never meet anyone interesting offline

howbloom:: to address the issue of Moslems who disagree with Osama

ZachSylvanus:: Leaders that have taken power much like Germany and Hitler, because of the way in which the Islamic countries have developed

Jeremy1952:: I'm hellbent on winning BECAUSE they are hellbent on winning. If they were willing to live and let live, so would I!

MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: this war is morally ambiguous

howbloom:: in the Islamic world, as in Hitler's German world

MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: those who can survive moral ambiguity without going insane will have something to offer

ZombieHatesYou:: Jer: 'tay.