TRANSCRIPT 11...

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Naturyl:: Hello Howard
howbloom:: Naturyl, hi. what's your name?
(jznet joined)
Naturyl: Jim
(tarav joined)
howbloom: ahhhh, Jim
howbloom: tell me more about yourself
tarav: hello
(#Kostya joined)
Naturyl: Well, I'm an Internet writer. I run a few communities, and I developed a worldview known as "dialectical monism."
howbloom: aha, people are piling in rapidly. hello, hello
jznet: rock n roll
(Chris OConnor joined)
#Kostya: Hi
Naturyl: I'm 29 and live in the "fine" state of Alabama. I am in the process of writing a book.
Chris OConnor: One sec please
howbloom: dialectical monism sounds like the subject of at least one entire chat session
Chris OConnor: Hey guys
howbloom: hi, chris
Chris OConnor: I'm babysitting while doing this
tarav: hey, chris
howbloom: aha
Chris OConnor: Hey Howard :) Good to see you
howbloom: :)
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Naturyl: Thanks, Howard. I'd be glad to do such a chat if asked.
Chris OConnor: Emily is 5 and Courtney is 10 and they are awesome
Chris OConnor: Howard - thank you for spending some time with us tonight ;)
howbloom: chris, those are your kids through the fractured marriage?
Chris OConnor: Howard - No, they're my brothers kids
Chris OConnor: My two nieces
tarav: better you than me chris!
howbloom: ahjhhhhh
Chris OConnor: haha I know
howbloom: I'm discovering that infants can be cute
howbloom: I've been trying to see at what age they turn social
Chris OConnor: I expect plenty to stagger in the next 15 minutes. People are always late. How long have you been in here Howard?
(Nostradafemme joined)
tarav: they are cute when they belong to someone else
Chris OConnor: Hello Gerry :)
howbloom: all by random sampling from my new office, a rattan couch outside a local tea lounge
Nostradafemme: hi chris. nice to be here.
Chris OConnor: I don't know if I'll ever have the energy to be a father. But I am pretty domestic.
howbloom: I got here three or four minutes ago
Chris OConnor: Ok, good
howbloom: had to give myself lots of time to log on...it's a tortuous process
Chris OConnor: It is exactly 9pm...we can wait a few seconds if you're ok with that
Chris OConnor: lol
howbloom: so tonight we are talking about Reinventing Capitalism, right?
Chris OConnor: I liked out other chat room, but it made things confusing to have 2 chat rooms
Chris OConnor: Yes, Howard
howbloom: chris, you are gracefully allowing me to run a grand experiment
Chris OConnor: And we can discuss the Iraq situation, the upcoming election, and anything else you hold dear
Naturyl: Oh, this is going to be good. Capitalism, what a fascinating subject.
Chris OConnor: Naturally Howard
howbloom: to test the first draft of a book on readers and get their input
Chris OConnor: you were our best guest to date
howbloom: before I write the final draft
howbloom: ahhh, chris, you warm the cockles and the muscles of my heart
Chris OConnor: About 15 members asked for copies of Reinventing Capitalism and I emailed the file to them
howbloom: great
Chris OConnor: Hopefully several of those are here tonight
howbloom: has anyone in this room had time to glance at the first draft?
tarav: i have it, but haven't read it yet--sorry
tarav: i plan to though
howbloom: that's ok
howbloom: who has read it?
tarav: so many books...so little time
Naturyl: I don't come to BookTalk often enough. If I'd known I could have gotten such a draft, I'd have asked for it
howbloom: my agony exactly, tarav
Chris OConnor: I have read some
Chris OConnor: Naturyl - howdy
tarav: you should come more! lol
Chris OConnor: one sec
Naturyl: Hi Chris
jznet: read it for the WIE magazine edit
howbloom: chris, can you do me a favor and send Naturyl a draft?
Chris OConnor: I can email it right now
howbloom: thanks
Chris OConnor: Naturyl - can you post your email right now?
howbloom: ok, why don't we begin
Naturyl: naturyl@humanists.net
Naturyl: thanks so much
howbloom: let me tell you what I'm doing right now, today
howbloom: and get your reaction to it, ok?
Chris OConnor: Ok, sending it right now
howbloom: I am trying to save Western Civilization
Chris OConnor: Ok, done
howbloom: a small and grubby task, but someone's gotta do it
Nostradafemme: yes, I've read R.C. and absolutely enjoyed it. Thought if was visually exciting.
howbloom: by the way, chris, can you send me a transcript when this is over?
Chris OConnor: Commendable
Chris OConnor: Howard - certainly :)
howbloom: ahh, Gerry, you always make me feel warm
Naturyl: Yes, and none too soon. It certainly could use some saving.
Chris OConnor: And we will also post it right here http://www.booktalk.org/transcripts/transcript11.php
howbloom: I started out to try to save our civilization, yours and mine
Nostradafemme: well Howard, you're welcome. I loved the pics, graphics, and story line.
howbloom: by putting a mirror up to it and showing it how to perceive itself
howbloom: by the way, Gerry, the graphics are now gone from the book--I loved them too
howbloom: every one of us is a capitalist in some small way
Nostradafemme: oh, no. that was what I related to most!
Chris OConnor: several others just logged in
howbloom: every one of us is a participant in the western system
(MichaelangeloGlossolalia joined)
howbloom: and the western system has more than just capitalism at its heart
Chris OConnor: Howard - I have referred about 5 people to Lucifer Principle and they have all enjoyed it. So far it is my fav book
Chris OConnor: Hey Michael :)
howbloom: it also has a protest industry
MichaelangeloGlossolalia: hi guys
howbloom: hi Michael
howbloom: the two work hand in hand
howbloom: and side by side
howbloom: and each needs a radical upgrade
jznet: long name there M
howbloom: capitalism needs soul
MichaelangeloGlossolalia: the military-industrial-media-pharmaceutical-protest complex?
howbloom: and protest needs creative solutions
Chris OConnor: Just for everyone's info I will start recording a transcript soon and I ONLY edit misspellings, profanity of weird stuff. No content is edited.
howbloom: yes, you and I are a part of the protest industry, Michael
howbloom: but to be successful at what we do
howbloom: to achieve our goals
jznet: ah, the weird stuff can be the best though
howbloom: we have to sell what we do
Naturyl: I want to ask how capitalism can gain soul, but I'm assuming that will be answered in the draft, which is now downloading over my slow dial-up connection
howbloom: we have to persuade others
howbloom: Naturyl, I will try to answer that question as I ramble forward
MichaelangeloGlossolalia: Capitalism gains soul by accelerating the process of making invisible realities visible, with as little distortion as possible.
MichaelangeloGlossolalia: (in my opinion)
howbloom: it was very hard for me when I was in my 20s to realize that to be a person with a brain who was dedicated to new insights
Chris OConnor: Maybe Howard will explain it a little too
howbloom: to new solutions and to new points of view
howbloom: i was going to have to learn to sell
howbloom: the word selling has a smarmy connotation in our culture
howbloom: or at least the culture I aspired to
howbloom: the intellectual elite
Chris OConnor: Ok, lets start. I see several people on the site that have yet to enter the chat room. I'll start recording a transcript, which is a manual process of copying and pasting.
(RickU joined)
Chris OConnor: Welcome Howard Bloom! We all sincerely appreciate you taking time out of your busy life to chat with us.
Nostradafemme: I wonder if Howard would consider defining capitalism as it is known in 2004?
howbloom: even Death of a Salesman, a play that's a must-know item
Chris OConnor: Welcome Rick - pull up a chair
RickU: Thanks Chris
howbloom: if you want to gain intellectual elite status
Chris OConnor: I loved that play, but how depressing Howard
howbloom: in a funny way puts down Willy Loman
howbloom: it is about the death of the concept of selling within the intellectual elite as well as the tragedy of willy Loman
Chris OConnor: Is Willy Loman the main character?
howbloom: though Arthur Miller says "attention must be paid to this man"
RickU: Not in a funny way Mr. Bloom - it rejects Loman as a person
howbloom: yes, he's the salesman who collapses in the end
howbloom: yes, it empathizes and rejects
Chris OConnor: Anyone in sales knows that many a sales person collapses in the end. What a brutal life of ups and downs.
howbloom: it tosses Loman into an intellectual wastebasket as an unfortunate victim from a subordinate class
howbloom: the stance of the play is a dominance position
howbloom: in a strange way Miller uses Loman
howbloom: he denigrates him
howbloom: so confessing to yourself that you are a salesman
howbloom: is an absolute no-no if you want to feel that your real crowd
Nostradafemme: in most companies, Howard, salesmen have a prime role.
howbloom: the crowd that you aspire to
howbloom: the crowd that is your real home
Chris OConnor: hmm
howbloom: is the crowd of Harold Bloom
howbloom: the crowd of the writers in
RickU: The salesman in this instance is more of an analogy for the common man
howbloom: The New York Review of Books
MichaelangeloGlossolalia: difference between "salesman" and "entrepreneur" is belief in the product. "Salesman" implies the possibility of inflating the product to get more sales.
howbloom: The New York Times
RickU: Common man is bad - sorry -
howbloom: The New Yorker
RickU: By that I mean the mundane
howbloom: there is a glory in the common man that we intellectual snobs don't see
howbloom: but that's getting ahead of my story
howbloom: bear with me while I try to tell you this tale, ok?
Chris OConnor: An author recently sent me the rough draft of his new book which draws a correlation between natural selection and Capitalism. Looks incredible so far.
Chris OConnor: Take your time Howard
RickU: I AM a snob - and I don't see the glory. But I DO see the intrinsic value
RickU: And indeed. Listening so to speak
howbloom: lesson one, I woke up to the fact that if I was going to achieve any of my goals in life
howbloom: little goals like saving western civilization
howbloom: I was going to have to persuade people
howbloom: I was going to have to insert what I believed in into other people's lives
Chris OConnor: And what a persuader you are
howbloom: a lot of that persuading would take very hard work in a realm I was supposed to disdain
howbloom: in the realm of selling
howbloom: it was a hard thing to confess, much harder than it looks on your monitor
RickU: A problem we all face here Howard
Naturyl: Yes, this is something important
howbloom: when I finally embraced the word "salesman"
howbloom: I got a call from a friend
howbloom: I had helped start a small thing in the sixties called the hippie movement
howbloom: this friend was a sort of hippy groupie
howbloom: she loved hanging around folks of hippie fame
howbloom: for example when Robert Crumb, the famous and ultimate hippy cartoonist
howbloom: showed up at my art studio
howbloom: my friend, dove, showed up
howbloom: latched on to him
howbloom: and made damned sure she had sex with him
howbloom: that was scoring a point in her hippie report card
howbloom: she didn't just get an e for effort
howbloom: she got an a for vaginal penetration or oral sex, I'm not sure which
Chris OConnor: Hmm
howbloom: but I, being young and innocent
Chris OConnor: lovely
howbloom: thought she was one of my best friends
howbloom: after all, she had taken me out for thanksgiving dinner at the house where the fugs were living
howbloom: the ultimate hippy rock group
howbloom: and we had a wonderful time
howbloom: sharing thanksgiving mean intimacy, right?
howbloom: it means friendship
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howbloom: she'd also taken me to Sam Shepherd's wedding to the actress Karen Black
howbloom: it was at the heart of the East Village
howbloom: the saint marks church
howbloom: the Vatican of hippiedom
Chris OConnor: Welcome Lan
howbloom: there was cool aid in the punch and all the signs that this was the exclusive club of the hippie aristocracy
#LanDroid: Howdy...
howbloom: so dove called on the very day in which I'd been forced to embrace the fact that one must persuade, one must sell, one must spread ideas if you think they have the power to save anyone
howbloom: the instant I told dove I was going to have to "sell"
howbloom: her voice turned cold
howbloom: after years of what I thought was close, close friendship
Chris OConnor: Allergic to sales
howbloom: she disappeared from my life
howbloom: disappeared utterly
Chris OConnor: We're all salespeople, but some of us get paid
howbloom: 30 years later I tracked her down again
howbloom: and sent her an email telling her I'd been hurt when she dropped me
howbloom: she sent back such a disdainful email that I will probably never communicate with her again in my life
RickU: All capitalists are salespeople in their kind. They, at the very least, sell their talents.
RickU: That's terrible Howard -
howbloom: that is the price you can pay for admitting to yourself or to others that you have to sell to save anyone
Chris OConnor: What was her reasoning?
Naturyl: Some folks react quite strongly to the idea of trying to influence others. It all sounds like proselytizing to the ears of some.
howbloom: no reasoning,
RickU: No reasoning indeed
howbloom: telling your friends that you've fucked Robert crumb makes you big
Chris OConnor: People are strange.
howbloom: telling friends that you know a salesman gets you kicked out of the room
#LanDroid: Ohhh Mr. Natural.
howbloom: it makes you small, to say the least
howbloom: the point I'm getting at has to do with how to put soul in the machine
Naturyl: Yes, that is a strange way to think. I wonder why people would have trouble with the idea that you have to sell people on ideas?
howbloom: you can't put soul in your work
howbloom: if you despise what you do
howbloom: you can't put soul in your work
howbloom: if you believe that it's beneath you
howbloom: you can't put soul into your work if you separate it from your "real life"
howbloom: you can't put soul into your work if you "real life" begins at 5pm when you go home
RickU: And putting your soul into your work is the only thing that makes "work" tolerable to intellectuals
howbloom: your real life is your work
howbloom: and if you know that you can begin to put your passion where it matters
howbloom: into the work that you do every day
howbloom: now back to the story
Chris OConnor: True Rick
MichaelangeloGlossolalia: "sell" has many connotations
howbloom: the story of another revelation
howbloom: about soul in the machine
Chris OConnor: The machine of capitalism?
howbloom: I had founded and was running an art studio
howbloom: it was my way of escaping academia
Naturyl: Ala Descartes' "ghost in the machine?"
howbloom: it was my voyage of the beagle into what interested me most passionately
howbloom: finding the gods inside of us
RickU: Wait, why would you want to escape academia?
howbloom: finding the things that make our personal emotions roar
howbloom: that make them soar
jznet: and ghost in the shell
howbloom: that make them utterly transcend our flesh
Chris OConnor: Howard loves the real world interacting with the masses - figuring out what makes them tick
howbloom: and those emotions come to a peak in the rituals of groups
Naturyl: I don't know about Mr. Bloom, but I think I'd want to escape it, Rick. Academia is pretty dead, philosophically.
Chris OConnor: ...a social scientist
howbloom: they come to a peak in a holy roller church when Christ grabs hold of
howbloom: James Baldwin and he writhes on the floor for fourteen hours
howbloom: possessed by a god
howbloom: since there are no gods in the heavens
RickU: Nat - I'm truly wondering. I had guessed "Academia" to be a glorious place to interact.
howbloom: the god that possesses him has to be inside of him
Naturyl: That's always fascinated me. I've always wondered what causes such behavior
howbloom: where is it, what is it, how do I get to feel it, and how do I manage to explain it with my toolkit
howbloom: my vocabulary
howbloom: the only set of tools I have
howbloom: the tools of science?
howbloom: when a dozen men beat on drums in a macumba ritual
howbloom: in south America
howbloom: and one man is seized as James Baldwin is
howbloom: by yet another god
howbloom: whose name we north Americans don't know
Naturyl: Rick - maybe it is, but I don't think that modern academia is a good place to ask the questions that really matter. It seems to be about philogy rather than philosophy. For example, with the rise of analytic philosophy, metaphysics has become a black sheep. But I'm blabbing too much.
MichaelangeloGlossolalia: If you want academia spend a lot of time cross-referencing ideas in Google. Or go to a library for a long time. Human groups get stale and distort everything.
howbloom: and he too writhes in pain and passion, sweat and ecstasy
howbloom: where is the god inside of him that has taken him over so utterly?
howbloom: why is there a god inside of him?
Chris OConnor: His imagination
howbloom: why is there a god inside of all of us
howbloom: once upon a time
howbloom: in the middle of the 20th century
MichaelangeloGlossolalia: any group dedicated to preserving itself as a group comes to distort things after a while. As soon as there's an inside narrative and an outside one and they don't intersect.
MichaelangeloGlossolalia: academia included
howbloom: there was a man who knew how to gather groups of a quarter of a million people
MichaelangeloGlossolalia: Barnum?
Naturyl: Hitler?
howbloom: and do to them what the Macumba drummers and their rituals did to the man who was seized by a god
howbloom: Naturyl got it
Naturyl: got to be Hitler
howbloom: Hitler gave a quarter of a million people
howbloom: participating in or watching a torchlight parade
howbloom: an ecstatic sense of being lifted out of themselves
howbloom: of touching something divine
howbloom: the soul of the volk
howbloom: the soul of the people
howbloom: the soul of Germany herself
Chris OConnor: volk = folk?
howbloom: the soul of her roots
howbloom: the soul of her future
howbloom: ein volk, ein Reich, ein fuehrer
howbloom: they chanted in their ecstasy
Chris OConnor: Umm ok. I knew that.
Naturyl: people, nation, leader
Naturyl: all one
MichaelangeloGlossolalia: Hitler had poor boundary definition. Showing weakness terrified him. He surrounded himself with bullies whose anger he could direct outward, away from himself. The entire country became a Freudian sphincter, eliminating the "parasite".
howbloom: this was another aspect of the god inside
RickU: lol@Chris - can't blame you for not knowing German
howbloom: it comes alive in the rituals of groups
Chris OConnor: Thanks Rick ;)
howbloom: it seems to be the most personal experience we can have
RickU: But now I know how to insult you.
howbloom: but it puts us in touch with something we feel is far, far bigger than ourselves
howbloom: and we need that ecstasy
Chris OConnor: Interesting Michael. A Freudian sphincter.
howbloom: we need that sense of meaning
RickU: I don't know Howard.
RickU: It didn't put me in touch with anything bigger than myself
Chris OConnor: Most of us need that
MichaelangeloGlossolalia: sphincter=elimination, shame, perfectionism
howbloom: we need that sense of being lifted and of touching something higher
Naturyl: MG - I think that what Howard is getting at is the idea of how Hitler did what he did. Hitler was a bad leader, but it can't change the fact that he knew how to connect with people.
howbloom: something deep inside ourselves that is divine
RickU: I think we need to analyze WHY people think that they need that.
Chris OConnor: Michael - I like it
RickU: My wife needs it
howbloom: I wanted to seek the gods inside
Naturyl: Rick - you weren't in 1930's Germany
howbloom: now way could I do it in academia
RickU: That I understand.
howbloom: so when I got four fellowships
howbloom: to four different grad schools
RickU: But WHY did you feel the need to seek something greater?
howbloom: I turned them down and pulled a great escape
RickU: That's the crux of what I don't get.
Chris OConnor: Because he desires to touch people I think
MichaelangeloGlossolalia: Hitler could read the vibes of a group. Most intellectuals can't, they're too deep in their heads.
howbloom: I jumped ship
Chris OConnor: multiply his efforts
howbloom: I looked for my Beagle--for my equivalent of the ship that Darwin took
Naturyl: I think that some people don't feel such a need, but the majority does. I will admit that I do. It's what drives me to ask big questions.
howbloom: to find his specimens in south America
Chris OConnor: Me too Naturyl
howbloom: the specimens he needed to put together a theory whose puzzles were percolating in his mind
howbloom: for me the Beagle was an art studio I co-founded
howbloom: and that's when I realized I needed to sell
RickU: Isn't there a difference though Howard?
howbloom: I believed in my artists passionately
Chris OConnor: interesting
howbloom: I loved the work they did with every sinew in me
RickU: Darwin rode Beagle in search of answers to his theory
MichaelangeloGlossolalia: should have started an advertising agency... I think you'd have done well at it.
howbloom: they were being kicked out of their apartments for not paying the rent
Chris OConnor: I wish I appreciated art the way some of you do. Music, this I have a passion for
howbloom: I wanted to make them a living
howbloom: I believed in them so I was going to have to sell them
Naturyl: So, your desire to share what your artists were doing with the rest of the world convinced you of the value of selling?
RickU: But in this metaphysical argument, you can't find answers that can be quantified
howbloom: the day I accepted that word, "sell", was the day I lost a friend I loved
howbloom: dove
jznet: some may consider music the highest form of 'art'
MichaelangeloGlossolalia: anticipating art is a good way to appreciate it. looking backwards isn't really what art is for, it's to see possibilities that aren't visible yet.
Chris OConnor: jz - Jason, right?
howbloom: music and visual art are two things that hit us in places we don't know
MichaelangeloGlossolalia: music is a really pure art, it's mostly mathematical and architectural
Naturyl: I guess we have to be prepared to sacrifice in pursuit of these big ideas.
jznet: sometimes:]
howbloom: we can feel it but we have a hard time putting it into words
Chris OConnor: lol
Naturyl: sacrifice.
RickU: I don't think so Howard
RickU: Music and visual art always hit me. When they hit me...in places that I DO know
RickU: And I don't feel the lesser for it
MichaelangeloGlossolalia: you have to sacrifice the tendency to distort your message to fit an audience's preconceptions. Human groups, including audiences, have a gravity to them.
Chris OConnor: Howard - I agree. I can't explain it but music changes my chemistry with just a few notes
tarav: i would have to agree with Rick here
Nostradafemme: guests just arrived. gotta go.
(Nostradafemme left)
Chris OConnor: Bye Gerry :)
howbloom: rather than diving into Rick's point, bear with me
MichaelangeloGlossolalia: maybe emotions are geometric ratios on some level
Chris OConnor: Ok, continue Howard
howbloom: I'm going to try to tell you how I learned the next lesson
howbloom: in putting soul in the machine
Chris OConnor: ok
jznet: i do not know how accurate it is but i came up with a tag for music that it is the remote control of the soul
Naturyl: Rick and tarav - I don't think anyone would suggest that you guys are the lesser for not having that desire to look deeper. I think some people just aren't wired that way - but most are
Chris OConnor: jz - I like that
howbloom: Albert Einstein's book on relativity told me something strange when I was in eighth grade
MichaelangeloGlossolalia: :thinks music is more like a Rorschach text, but different intervals have an affinity for different emotions, based on feelings of "falling away" and "approaching with anticipation" etc.
Chris OConnor: Music helped me through rough times when I was young...and I cannot fully explain it. It has always been like an escape for me, much the way hard drugs are to some people.
howbloom: it said, "to be a genius it's not enough to have a theory that only seven people in the world can understand.
howbloom: "to be a genius you have to have a theory that only seven people in the world can understand AND you have to be able to express it so simply
Chris OConnor: I've never heard that one before Howard
MichaelangeloGlossolalia: a minor third is like falling a little bit off a cliff from a major third, or stepping up from a second.
howbloom: that anyone with a reasonable degree of intelligence can understand it"
Naturyl: And that can be a tall order
Chris OConnor: Howard - So true.
howbloom: we all add our own flavors to things that we read that change our lives
MichaelangeloGlossolalia: maybe translating is the only real act of genius. Taking what's there and amplifying it, adding filters, changing contexts, etc.
howbloom: I was hooked on the notion of making science not just palatable and understandable, but delicious
howbloom: but back to Einstein
howbloom: here was one of the very few people I could relate to at the age of twelve
Chris OConnor: Carl Sagan shared that approach
howbloom: when I couldn't relate to other kids my age at all
RickU: Right...thus the idea of having to sell your ideas
howbloom: and was a social outcast
#LanDroid: I was thinking the same, Chris.
howbloom: and what was this role model telling me?
Chris OConnor: Most 12 year olds cannot even spell Einstein
howbloom: yes, Rick, I never realized that, he was telling me to sell
Chris OConnor: That he needed to learn how to sell?
howbloom: but I thought he was telling me to learn something that at that age I was incompetent at
howbloom: he was telling me to write
Chris OConnor: to share
howbloom: writing, he seemed to be telling me, was a necessary part of science
howbloom: yes, selling and sharing
RickU: To share is to sell to at least some of your audience. The sell is convincing people to accept your view
MichaelangeloGlossolalia: I think it's obligatory to have one kid in every classroom that identifies with Einstein.
howbloom: so while I was running the art studio I was looking for opportunities to write
Chris OConnor: or to consider your view
RickU: Christianity for whatever reason, has been very good at selling itself.
howbloom: I felt that the studio gave me a periscope position
RickU: consider is much better Chris - thanks
howbloom: a position from which I could see my way into two avenues I had to pursue
howbloom: to do what Einstein had told me to do
jznet: ok, so learning how to sell ideas is already well established in capitalism, this is well known.
howbloom: and what I wanted as well
Chris OConnor: I see no better way than writing to share your passions, interests, and philosophy with the world
MichaelangeloGlossolalia: Christianity offers forgiveness, a chance to start over, and a peer group that loves you.
howbloom: those two avenues were writing and television
RickU: But, Howard - I still have trouble with your Beagle analogy
howbloom: in those days I was designing my own clothes
Chris OConnor: I'm allergic to Beagles
Chris OConnor: but alas
howbloom: it was the sixties
Naturyl: Christianity is an offer you can't refuse. Christianity is a Don Corleone-like proposition - you can accept eternal life in paradise as a free gift, and if you don't, you get the opposite. The selling method is clear
MichaelangeloGlossolalia: :thinks comic books are the ideal form of information, and underutilized
howbloom: so you could get away with all kinds of things
howbloom: one day I took my studio's portfolio out on my normal daily mission
RickU: It's not so much different now Howard. Just like then...you have to be able to accept the consequences
howbloom: spend your morning making appointments with anyone and everyone in the world who might be able to buy our art
Chris OConnor: Howard - you need to write an autobiography
howbloom: then in the afternoon visit at least five art directors and show them our stuff
jznet: yeh I used to love comics and was going to start an underground comic and was told i would have one out in a year at one point when i had not even been serious at it but lost interest
howbloom: one of my five appointments that afternoon was with the editor of an underground fashion magazine
howbloom: that I was hoping would be receptive to our work
MichaelangeloGlossolalia: Ever read Uncle Sam by Alex Ross?
jznet: but love that medium and beyond that, animation
tarav: my favorite comic hero was Lobo
howbloom: i walked into the office where she and her staff worked
RickU: Keep on It Howard...we're still listening
howbloom: opened my artists' portfolio
howbloom: started pointing the pages that seemed relevant
Chris OConnor: Did Tara just speak up? Holy smokes.
tarav: lol
howbloom: enthusing over art I was genuinely in love with
howbloom: and instead of looking at the art
MichaelangeloGlossolalia: Remind me to show you Uncle Sam, Howard, if I'm ever in Brooklyn.
tarav: i loved that comic, chris
howbloom: the editor looked at my clothes
howbloom: "Do you have more of these?" she said
howbloom: sure, I said
Chris OConnor: I'd like to see some of your self-designed clothing
howbloom: I have a whole closetful of them
Chris OConnor: Probably a T-back and space helmet.
howbloom: can you write about them for us? she asked
RickU: Wife's home.. a moment
howbloom: of course I could, Einstein had told me I had to become a writer and I'd been working on it since the age of twelve
Chris OConnor: Howard - pictures for your autobiography - those clothes
howbloom: the clothes are all gone, chris and there is only one photo
howbloom: and it's not of the stuff I designed
Chris OConnor: hmm
(MichaelangeloGlossolalia left)
howbloom: I didn't realize that you have to save things
howbloom: at any rate
howbloom: I went home and wrote an article on the philosophy behind the clothes I designed
howbloom: took it back to the editor and she liked it
howbloom: you have no idea of how hungry I was to have my first article published in a magazine
Chris OConnor: That had to be an incredible feeling
howbloom: writing for scientists--putting together seminar notes and foundation grant proposals
(MichaelangeloGlossolalia joined)
howbloom: and writing for the boy scouts
howbloom: despite having been kicked out of my boy scout troop for incompetence at Morse code
howbloom: these were things I'd done while dropping out of school and in summer vacations
jznet: so you got back at them by rewriting the code? :]
howbloom: but Einstein had told me write and I'd never been really published before
howbloom: the editor liked the article
howbloom: she gave me a few assignments
howbloom: she liked them too
howbloom: she made me a contributing editor to her magazine
howbloom: so in my spare time
howbloom: from six am to 8 am
howbloom: and from 8pm to 11pm
howbloom: I wrote magazine stories
howbloom: 178 of them
howbloom: it was the Einsteinian imperative
Chris OConnor: you dream big Howard
howbloom: and for some reason I loved every assignment she gave me
Chris OConnor: And then you take your dream and make it happen. I love that.
howbloom: they could have been interpreted as adventures or drudgery
howbloom: if you're going to write prose that lights other people up, the Einsteinian imperative
howbloom: then an assignment to review all of the Western gear stores in New York
howbloom: is an adventure
Chris OConnor: Western?
howbloom: a trip to places you would never have thought of going on your own
howbloom: yes, saddles, cowboy shirts, cowboy boots, cowboy belts, etc
Chris OConnor: Ahh ok. I only ask so that I can edit properly.
howbloom: so there I was writing my tail off
howbloom: when lesson number two in putting soul in the machine popped up
howbloom: I was covering an occult pseudoscience conference one day
howbloom: for yet another magazine that had shanghaied me into becoming a contributing editor, too
howbloom: natural lifestyles
howbloom: and someone at the conference saw me scribbling notes
howbloom: and must have realized I was a writer
howbloom: here was his question
Chris OConnor: drum roll please
howbloom: "would you like to edit a magazine?"
Chris OConnor: Holy shit
howbloom: hey, that would mean not having to get up at six am to write, right?
howbloom: my artists were all set up to cruise on their own
howbloom: or so they thought
(ZachSylvanus joined)
howbloom: I'd gotten them a gig as art directors for a brand new magazine
howbloom: maybe you've heard of it
howbloom: the national lampoon
#LanDroid: Sweet!
howbloom: there was a big check rolling in every month and the artists figured they had it made
Chris OConnor: Of course!
howbloom: so they kicked me out of the studio
howbloom: why share 25% with a guy who's doing nothing, right?
Chris OConnor: ahh
Chris OConnor: bastards
Naturyl: jeez
#LanDroid: Sounds like business.
howbloom: they got theirs, unfortunately
howbloom: they all went back to being unemployed alcoholics
jznet: sounds like soulless capitalism?
howbloom: who couldn't pay their rent
MichaelangeloGlossolalia: You were their den mother
howbloom: the soul-less capitalism was being practiced in this case by people who felt they were the essence of soul and the antithesis of capitalism
howbloom: greed is destructive to capitalism
howbloom: greed grinds soul OU
Naturyl: I guess you weren't "doing nothing" after all, as they discovered when they became broke alcoholics again
MichaelangeloGlossolalia: enantiodromia (Jung's word for things becoming their opposites)
howbloom: out of the machine
Naturyl: too late for them though
howbloom: yes, and I still mourn the best of them
howbloom: but that's another story or maybe it isn't
MichaelangeloGlossolalia: you were giving them a catalyst... they didn't realize your importance in their ecosystem
howbloom: but we'll try to milk its meaning another time
howbloom: so this kid asked if I wanted to edit a magazine
RickU: Does that mean you'll come back Howard?
howbloom: now follow this
howbloom: I'd been kicked out of the boy scouts, right?
howbloom: for incompetence at dots and dashes
(DaRk Penguin joined)
MichaelangeloGlossolalia: That wasn't YOU who taught all the Christian kids the second law of thermodynamics, was it?
jznet: DP, evening'
howbloom: but when I'd gotten a summer job after my freshman year of college
MichaelangeloGlossolalia: hi dp
howbloom: writing for the boy scouts of America
DaRk Penguin: hey
howbloom: and they'd assigned me the job of rewriting their booklets on camouflage and hunting and stalking
Chris OConnor: Howard - you didn't create the Boy scout salute did you?
howbloom: the fact that I couldn't even find my way into the woods much less find my way out of them didn't matter
howbloom: I had the responsibility of millions of kids on my shoulders
howbloom: I wanted them to be able to stalk and track like goblins
howbloom: I wanted them to succeed
howbloom: so I researched my ass off on stalking and tracking and camouflage
howbloom: I worked at understanding these three things I couldn't do
howbloom: that the boy scout editor gave me his biggest job, the most critical one on his platter
howbloom: writing a book called "ten steps to organize a boy scout troop"
howbloom: the book that would be the guide for would-be boy scout troop organizers all over North America
howbloom: and I did it
howbloom: I wrote it
howbloom: by researching ferociously
Naturyl: nice. I used to have "Field book," and I loved it
howbloom: so when I was asked if I wanted to edit a magazine
RickU: But the moral of the story is?
howbloom: there was one question I didn't think of asking
howbloom: "what is the magazine about?"
howbloom: whatever it was, I figured I'd be able to research it
#LanDroid: Uh oh.
Naturyl: That's daring
howbloom: so here I was seeking the gods inside, right?
howbloom: lesson number one had been salesmanship
howbloom: you can't be prophet if you can't persuade
howbloom: you can't be a scientist if you can't write clearly and deliciously
RickU: prophet?!
Chris OConnor: Profit
howbloom: Einstein and Isaiah were telling me to sell
howbloom: sorry, Isaiah was another role model
Chris OConnor: You cannot make a profit if you cannot persuade.
Chris OConnor: /bows
howbloom: a total outcast who came back with a message
howbloom: if Isaiah hadn't gotten that message across big time
Naturyl: Prophets get a bad name. Really, anyone who has a vision is a prophet of sorts. They aren't all guys in the dessert throwing rocks and screaming inanely
howbloom: if he hadn't sold and persuaded and shouted his ass off
MichaelangeloGlossolalia: the Old Testament prophets sold fear really well... always with an undertone of revenge against injustice
howbloom: we'd be deprived of one of the most vital phrases in our vocabulary
MichaelangeloGlossolalia: prophesy is scenario planning'
howbloom: one that sets our sights on one of the most vital aspirations we have
RickU: Indeed Michael
Naturyl: Bill Gates was a prophet, and it got him a profit of 50 billion
howbloom: turning swords into plowshares and spears into pruning hooks
#LanDroid: Yeah, we're getting close to that goal...
tarav: thank you for coming Howard
howbloom: that cliché does more to focus the ambitions of us humans than almost any other I can think of
RickU: Not we Howard
tarav: i must go
MichaelangeloGlossolalia: Anyone who gives the tribe its symbols of identity gains the tribe's loyalty, and its money
tarav: bye all
howbloom: that's selling
RickU: G'night Tara
howbloom: that's boiling a message down to a bumper sticker motto
Chris OConnor: Night Tara
howbloom: something that glues itself to your mind
howbloom: but back to the magazine
MichaelangeloGlossolalia: night tare
howbloom: the magazine turned out to be about a form of group ritual\
RickU: No Howard
(tarav left)
howbloom: it's a ritual that like the macumba and the holy roller rituals
RickU: In that you have simplified it too much. It could burn in my mind as a negative instead of a positive
howbloom: used rhythmic beats to pull the gods to life
RickU: positive rather
MichaelangeloGlossolalia: the Survivor producer talked about creating a sense of ritual.
howbloom: to yank them into vividness
howbloom: that ritual was something I'd never had a chance to participate in
howbloom: it was called rock and roll and I didn't know a darned thing about it
Naturyl: How can "swords to plowshares" be a negative?
Chris OConnor: Wow I love Nyquil
howbloom: I was an intellectual snob
MichaelangeloGlossolalia: just try converting swords into plowshares, you'll be called a traitor
howbloom: I listened to Beethoven, bartok, Stravinsky, and rachmaninoff
Naturyl: Perhaps, but being called a traitor does not make one such.
MichaelangeloGlossolalia: true
howbloom: can I take a break for a second and run to the men's room?
Naturyl: of course
howbloom: is this story proving to be of any value to you?
howbloom: there's more to come
howbloom: brb
Naturyl: It is to me, and so is the draft, which is great, by the way
RickU: absolutely Howard - pee away
MichaelangeloGlossolalia: Howard's life parallels in some surprising ways that of Willy Wonka
(#Kostya left)
Naturyl: I really need someone to defend capitalism to me. I'm pretty much one of these bloodsucking socialists
Chris OConnor: I want to make sure we don't lose anyone before he gets to the meat of the book
Naturyl: The only defenses of capitalism I hear are stupid ones, mostly from conservatives
Chris OConnor: Yes, well then you ought to present that to Howard Naturyl
MichaelangeloGlossolalia: I think capitalism's potential benefit is in its grassroots structure (not as easy to defend with huge global corps)
MichaelangeloGlossolalia: anything that gives people more freedom to take initiative will tend to do better than any centralized bureaucracy, including a corporatized one.
Naturyl: Howard's ideas on capitalism don't sound like the same, tired stuff. There is a ring of uniqueness and potential in them
Chris OConnor: My defense of capitalism is that it is natural
Naturyl: Well, so is cancer
Chris OConnor: Socialism flies in the face of natural selection
MichaelangeloGlossolalia: Howard sees capitalism not as a producer of "stuff" but a process where a person interacts on a deep level with the people whose money he wants.
Naturyl: so does modern health care
Chris OConnor: Cancer doesn't create...it destroys.
ZachSylvanus: Chris, so is racism and other forms of centrism
RickU: I wouldn't separate them that clearly Chris
ZachSylvanus: natural, that is
RickU: Socialism and Capitalism are not that far removed from one another
Naturyl: Oh, but it does, Chris. All cancer does is create, and far faster than normal cells.
Chris OConnor: You're all wrong
RickU: Both require honesty
Chris OConnor: Just kidding!
MichaelangeloGlossolalia: capitalism is more natural... not necessarily natural in its current form, but more natural than some of the alternatives
Chris OConnor: LOL
howbloom: Rick's right
RickU: To truly work
Naturyl: unfortunately it creates something that kills us
RickU: *grins* Always good when a published author agrees w/ you.
howbloom: socialism and capitalism are slightly different versions of large bureaucratized industrial organization
MichaelangeloGlossolalia: cancer is an interesting motive... hijacking processes and turning them into producers of nothing of value that strangle things of value
howbloom: one just works a lot better than the other
RickU: Exactly right Howard
howbloom: but let's get back to the magazine
howbloom: and its lessons
howbloom: lesson number one,
RickU: And for good reason. Capitalism provides an incentive that socialism does not
howbloom: from the art studio and from Einstein
Naturyl: Howard challenges the idea that capitalism artificially manipulates desires and leads us to consume an endless array of superfluous products, which is something I haven't seen any pro-capitalist challenge effectively
howbloom: was that if you believe in something you have to sell it\
MichaelangeloGlossolalia: I'm interested in grassroots entrepreneurial synergy. A net across the world made of decentralized free people as opposed to centralized elites and bureaucracies.
RickU: Ok Howard. Back to it
howbloom: if you believe you are onto something that can help humanity
howbloom: even if it helps only with the sort of delight
MichaelangeloGlossolalia: I think capitalists CAN hijack the culture forming process. Socialists do the same.
howbloom: that comes from the picture of an artist
howbloom: a picture that lights you up inside
howbloom: if you fail to sell it
MichaelangeloGlossolalia: brb
howbloom: you betray and cheat humanity
howbloom: now for the magazine
Naturyl: wow
RickU: I would argue you betray only yourself and your artist
howbloom: it turned out to be about rock and roll
RickU: yourself that is
RickU: Carry on.
Chris OConnor: And stones
Chris OConnor: Ones that roll
RickU: They gather no moss
howbloom: yes, you cheat yourself every minute and every day that you fail to find and put your passion in your work
howbloom: and you fail humanity
Naturyl: I would agree with Howard, and it's really something I need to hear, because I really am not putting enough effort into my book. It may only sell 10 copies, but I'm cheating those 10 people by goofing off
Chris OConnor: Rick - true
howbloom: your mission is messianic
jznet: a consistently current state of capitalism doesn't mean that a potential to reconfigure its processes though rare to identify and tough to imagine, possible maybe
howbloom: that's what capitalism is secretly and silently all about
howbloom: but back to the magazine
howbloom: as I said, it was about this form of music I didn't know
howbloom: but one of the first things I had to do when I took the job was go to a concert by a rapidly-declining blues band called Fleetwood Mac
howbloom: something remarkable happened at the concert
howbloom: it was at Carnegie Hall
#LanDroid: Rapidly declining at Carnegie Hall?
howbloom: it would be roughly seven years before Stevie Nicks would join the band and give it a new life
MichaelangeloGlossolalia: shhh Lan, it fits the narrative
howbloom: Carnegie Hall is a 3,500 seat hall
Chris OConnor: Damn I loved Fleetwood Mac
howbloom: when you are big, you play Madison square garden, capacity=18,000
howbloom: a concert does strange things to people even when it's normal, and this concert would not turn out to be normal
howbloom: it either bores you and makes all the most depressing half articulated feelings that you've got go dancing through you for an hour or two\
howbloom: or it let's you drop your feeling of individual identity and draws you utterly out of yourself
howbloom: when it draws most of the audience out of itself
RickU: "The one good thing about Music, is when it hits you you feel no pain. So hit me with music."
Chris OConnor: Hit me with your best shot. Fire away.
howbloom: and into another form of that bigger than just yourself thing Hitler went for
RickU: I think that's what you're describing Howard. THAT feeling
howbloom: and that holy rollers and macumba ritualism go for
RickU: Not all music does that
howbloom: we used to call it getting the audience off
howbloom: orgasm for the soul
howbloom: collective orgasm
howbloom: it's a remarkable thing
Chris OConnor: I've had many a musical orgasm at concerts
howbloom: so the concert was only half doing what it was supposed to do
howbloom: it was in between the corrosive thoughts eating you alive and the music and performance and atmosphere pulling you outside yourself
howbloom: when something strange happened
MichaelangeloGlossolalia: soulgasms are a myth
howbloom: all the electricity to the stage went of
howbloom: the mikes were off
Chris OConnor: accidentally?
howbloom: the stage lights were off
Chris OConnor: wow
Naturyl: oh shit
Naturyl: somebody is in hot water
MichaelangeloGlossolalia: and everyone was afraid of the dark?
Chris OConnor: but they kept playing unplugged
RickU: I don't think so Michael - You've never had a revelation that rocked you? If you have, that's a soulgasm.
Chris OConnor: and this is when everything gelled
MichaelangeloGlossolalia: Rick--sorry, I was thinking of the g-spot
howbloom: and some sort of emergency switching system did one of the most horrible things you can do to the audience of a concert that's on its way to possibly getting off
MichaelangeloGlossolalia: got confused
howbloom: possibly getting outside itself
howbloom: it turned on the house lights
howbloom: the lights above the audience
(pctacitus joined)
RickU: interesting
MichaelangeloGlossolalia: and they all teleported into different bodies!
Naturyl: yep, that will ruin it
howbloom: the lights that speak of normality
pctacitus: evening all
RickU: Quit being sarcastic and let him tell his story.
Chris OConnor: Hey Samuel! :)
Naturyl: ever been in a bar at closing time when the lights come on? You practically run from the place
RickU: Heya pc
howbloom: the lights that tell you, quick, it's time to don the mask of your individual identity again
MichaelangeloGlossolalia: hi pc
Chris OConnor: OMG Michael
howbloom: it's time to look dignified and composed
Chris OConnor: Exactly Howard...those lights suck
howbloom: it's time to tuck the gods that were oozing out of you\
howbloom: back where they belong again\
Naturyl: The lights kill the whole thing
howbloom: hidden
howbloom: hidden utterly
Chris OConnor: I know exactly what you mean Howard
MichaelangeloGlossolalia: "tuck your deity in, please"
howbloom: where no one else, including you
howbloom: can see
DaRk Penguin: the soulgasm blew out the electricity. wow
howbloom: then Mick Fleetwood stepped to the very lip of the stage
#LanDroid: LOL@Michael...
Chris OConnor: How was this resolved?
Chris OConnor: I'm dying to know
howbloom: and rallied us like a general
howbloom: giving spirit to his troops
Chris OConnor: What did he say?
RickU: I only know what you mean in theory. You tuck yourself back inside and allow yourself to become presentable for public consumption...not teaching
pctacitus: do insurance companies cover soulgasms?
Chris OConnor: lol
howbloom: "We're not going to let a malfunctioning bunch of electrons stop this music," he said (I paraphrase in Bloomese)
RickU: Only Christian ones pc
MichaelangeloGlossolalia: pc--not if it soaks into the wood
howbloom: We're going to make this concert happen
Chris OConnor: So they played on....
howbloom: and he said it in a way that meant he was not just calling on the band
Chris OConnor: unplugged....with the lights off
Naturyl: everybody in the place sang?
howbloom: he was calling on all of us to rebel against this accident
howbloom: and he electrified us
pctacitus: I thought it was supposed to be unchristian to have insurance, protection from acts of god and all
howbloom: he pulled us together in the face of this enemy
MichaelangeloGlossolalia: so they dismembered an audience member, used the intestines to make very large vibrating strings, and continued on! That's inspiring.
RickU: The enemy of accident though...is that inspiring?
howbloom: he pulled us together in the face of darkness on the stage and light where it was not supposed to be--on our faces
howbloom: he made us face him again
howbloom: he made us come together as one
MichaelangeloGlossolalia: accidents are either with us or against us
howbloom: the band played on with no amps\
howbloom: no mikes
howbloom: no nothing
Chris OConnor: Lets not derail Howard's story folks
Chris OConnor: please
howbloom: but that was not what counted
MichaelangeloGlossolalia: sorry Chris
Chris OConnor: No problem
howbloom: he made us, the audience his army and his family
(ZachSylvanus left)
howbloom: he pulled us out of ourselves so much more powerfully than a mere concert ever could
howbloom: we rebelled against accident
howbloom: and made it happen because he urged us to
howbloom: he catalyzed us
howbloom: he sparked us in some vital way
howbloom: he took the high stress of transition
Naturyl: I'll be interested to hear how this relates to the lessons of selling
howbloom: from concert to everyday life\
howbloom: a stress we normally don't recognize
howbloom: and he turned it into energy
howbloom: he turned it into transcendence of an unexpected kind
howbloom: because of the stress of accident the gods in us came alive
Chris OConnor: events like that bring people together
howbloom: that's when I realized that somehow, by some strange accident, I'd found my Galapagos Islands
howbloom: I'd found the spot where the gods live and thrive
Chris OConnor: Neil Young did the same thing at one of his concerts when it started raining. It was an outdoor concert.
Naturyl: Maybe that is the kind of thing we need in our society, although I don't know how it could be catalyzed or who could do it
MichaelangeloGlossolalia: how long before accidents will be staged to get that effect? capitalism can be obsessively self-referencing...
howbloom: I'd found the place where ritual brings soul flaring and blazing to life
Naturyl: Well, that's a valid point, MG
RickU: How did you plan to make use of it Howard?
howbloom: Michael it is and isn't a valid point, I'm gonna digress for a minute
Naturyl: Then again, one could stage the catalyst, but not the reaction. Poor catalysts will simply be ignored, I would think
howbloom: I believe that pop culture helps a society focus its energies on creativity in the area of making life better for each other
howbloom: the area of goods and services
howbloom: rather than focusing its creativity on something else biology has built us for
howbloom: violence and war
howbloom: but that's a long subject for a later time in this discussion
howbloom: the first discovery of the rock magazine odyssey
howbloom: was that I'd found the ritual spot I was looking for, no matter how accidentally
howbloom: the second lesson was social\
howbloom: there was a rock and roll aristocracy
howbloom: a self-appointed rock-crit elite
MichaelangeloGlossolalia: the soul-eaters
howbloom: a small group of folks who had declared themselves the kings and queens of rock criticism
howbloom: and, yes, they were the soul eaters
howbloom: somehow snobbery snuffs out soul
howbloom: they made it clear to me from the beginning that I was not a part of them
howbloom: at several points they actually tried to drive me out of their community
howbloom: I don't like cliques, especially elitist ones
Naturyl: snobbery excludes those from which the whole thing originally flows. It is like talking about plumbing while looking down on plumbers
MichaelangeloGlossolalia: easier to do something new if you're an outsider and used to being thrown out than if you're an insider who fears being thrown out for the first time.
howbloom: probably for a very selfish reason, they always exclude me
Naturyl: Probably a good sign
howbloom: but the fact is that they thought their job was to one-up each other in a status game
howbloom: their audience was each other
Naturyl: I've never seen much real value coming from self-appointed elites
RickU: It could be because hippy's smell funny...
howbloom: Lisa Robinson, the self-appointed queen of the group
howbloom: edited a magazine called Hit Parade
RickU: I'm sorry you think that Nat - I'm self-appointed elite
howbloom: who did she edit it for?
howbloom: who was her audience?
howbloom: was it the 60,000 kids who bought her magazine?
howbloom: no, absolutely not
MichaelangeloGlossolalia: It's classier to get delegates to self-appoint you an elite
Naturyl: Rick: in what sense are you self-appointed elite?
howbloom: they were beneath her
RickU: I am an intellectual classicist
MichaelangeloGlossolalia: everyone's a self-appointed elite if they view themselves as the center of the world's most crucial story
howbloom: it was her job to do what Marxist officials in the cultural commissariat used to do
RickU: And I feel that I am intellectually superior to a great bulk of humanity
howbloom: to "educate" her audience
howbloom: which meant ignoring every band her audience liked
MichaelangeloGlossolalia: the US is a self-appointed elite, in many ways.
pctacitus: Rick, do you read Latin or Greek?
howbloom: and writing about bands so arcane and tuneless
Naturyl: Oh, I see. Well, I can't disagree there is some value in that. The intellect is undeniably important, and intellectual superiority does qualify one to a certain extent
RickU: PC - only in a limited fashion. Why?
howbloom: that only a rock critic could love them
MichaelangeloGlossolalia: I don't see people as being intellectually inferior, but focused for emotional reasons on things that don't interest me
howbloom: bands so arcane and tuneless that by advocating them
pctacitus: A classicist is someone who studies the Greek and roman classics
howbloom: she could look hip, cool, and successfully snooty, successfully "in" to her friends
howbloom: ironically her friends, her fellow members of the rock crit elite
Chris OConnor: but her friends were not her target market
Naturyl: But the task of the intellectual (in my view) is to help everybody else. If everybody else is intellectually "disabled" in comparison, should we point and laugh, or should we try to improve their lot?
MichaelangeloGlossolalia: just the Greek and roman, or all literature of the time?
howbloom: were all Marxists, meaning they loved the people, right?
howbloom: the fact is they hated the people they wrote for
Chris OConnor: Sounds like they detested the people
howbloom: they were on a power trip
howbloom: when I was back in the art studio writing morning and night
pctacitus: Greek and roman, some Jewish texts, but that is really to shed light on Greece and Rome
howbloom: I'd proposed a story to esquire on drugs and sex among teenagers
howbloom: so I'd spent six months going out on weekends to a suburban community
howbloom: Meridian Connecticut
Chris OConnor: field research
RickU: Nat - you can't necessarily improve their lot. People are born with a certain capacity for thought (IMO)...
howbloom: with a tape recorder and note pads
howbloom: spending time with kids 15 and 16 years old
howbloom: and being taken in
howbloom: adopted like a mascot by them
Naturyl: Rick: that's true, but if you present intellectual things in such a way that average people can understand them, some insight might sneak in the back door.
(ecstian joined)
howbloom: shown the secret things that they were doing behind their parents back
Chris OConnor: Welcome Eric :)
MichaelangeloGlossolalia: Elitism is common now because it's so much easier than it used to be to lose your social position. We all want to think we have some special thing that keeps us useful to the tribe.
ecstian: Hello Chris
RickU: I think only in the way that religion works Nat
RickU: They take it on Faith
howbloom: one group shunned me, one group embraced me, and I, like you, am very, very human
RickU: and to me that's just as bad as Christianity
howbloom: so which group do you think I championed?
Chris OConnor: Howard - I can see you fitting in with anybody
Chris OConnor: Howard - the one that shunned you
howbloom: thanks, chris
MichaelangeloGlossolalia: Everything intellectual can be explained in a way that the average person can understand it. It's a matter of time before someone finds the right way to teach something.
Naturyl: Rick: maybe so, but as long as we are presenting worthwhile things, it is better for the masses to take it on faith than never to hear of it.
howbloom: the group that mattered to me was the kids I was serving
howbloom: the kids who read my magazine
howbloom: I wanted to know their desires, their needs, and the things that set a flame ablaze inside of them
howbloom: I wanted to feel them empathically
Chris OConnor: And did you find these things??
RickU: I never said that it shouldn't be presented - and Howard - a need to inform your audience - a key to teaching?
howbloom: I wanted to know how to champion them
Chris OConnor: Empathy is the key to world peace
MichaelangeloGlossolalia: I don't like talk of the "masses" as if they were people unlike us. That reminds me of the snobbier socialists and capitalists.
MichaelangeloGlossolalia: I agree, Chris
RickU: A key Chris
MichaelangeloGlossolalia: empathy and creative expression of it.
RickU: Not the
howbloom: to be their advocate and, puny as I am, the person who fought on their behalf
Chris OConnor: You're not puny
Naturyl: MG - true, the "masses" is not an ideal term. I couldn't think of a better word at that moment
howbloom: I used a zillion self-invented "market research" techniques designed to get to the heart of my kids, not to their pocketbooks
MichaelangeloGlossolalia: I like Jung's word, "the collective"
Chris OConnor: Your vision makes you bigger than life
Chris OConnor: Ahh
howbloom: one technique I used was an focus group\
MichaelangeloGlossolalia: individuals are pretty smart, collectives can be very paranoid, sluggish and stupid
pctacitus: chris, try empathizing with bin laden, see where that gets you
howbloom: guess what? It proved to be useless
howbloom: worse, in fact\
Chris OConnor: Focus groups are controlled
Naturyl: but collectives reflect individual traits, only magnified
Chris OConnor: They are artificial
howbloom: focus groups give kids the power
howbloom: that the rock crit elite has
Naturyl: paranoia looks a lot worse when there is a mob of hundreds outside the door with torches
howbloom: and they use it to score ego points
Chris OConnor: But focus groups seem to be one of the best ways to get feedback
howbloom: take 2,000 kids
howbloom: rate them on typicality
howbloom: take the top 20
howbloom: see which ten are most able to articulate why they like and dislike things
MichaelangeloGlossolalia: Chris--instant communication may change that.... my wife writes to companies when she wants to tell them something, because email is so easy.
RickU: Wait. clarify how
RickU: top 20 typical?
howbloom: make them a focus group, which is one of the things I did
RickU: What does that mean?
Naturyl: In order to set the stage for empathy to be practiced, certain things will have to be eliminated. Bin Laden is among them.
howbloom: and they instantly become atypical
Naturyl: Empathy is not stupidity
MichaelangeloGlossolalia: empathy is separate from security
howbloom: they start advocating strange and esoteric bands for the same reason rockcrit elitists do
howbloom: to prove their power
Naturyl: indeed MG
Chris OConnor: Howard - ahhh
howbloom: to score ego points
Chris OConnor: Howard exactly
MichaelangeloGlossolalia: empathy doesn't die because of fear, but because of political correctness. It's politically incorrect to show empathy for your enemy
RickU: No. Empathy is simply understanding and acknowledging someone else's lot
Chris OConnor: they're making a statement
howbloom: they cease to be guides to the heart of the masses
pctacitus: violence is the predicate for empathy, is that it Nat?
howbloom: now they, too, are elites
MichaelangeloGlossolalia: you can be afraid of someone and still empathize with them. It's just not a popular thing to do.
howbloom: and elites do not serve people
RickU: Walking a mile in someone else's shoes....
howbloom: elites steal from them
Chris OConnor: Howard - the only solution seems to be to watch without them knowing you're watching
howbloom: elites steal soul
RickU: No how
howbloom: that's why Marxism failed in the USSR and in China
RickU: I think you're prejudiced
MichaelangeloGlossolalia: the same focused, magnetic empathy some Christians feel watching The Passion can be focused on anyone, including someone you're supposed to hate.
howbloom: elites steal soul
#LanDroid: Curious - does anyone read rock crit elitists?
Naturyl: pctacitus, maybe so, sadly. Only because there are those who would use empathy as a tool to kill everyone else. Empathize with Bin Laden and he kills you. Oppose him and he kills you. No matter what, he kills you.
RickU: Elites don't ALWAYS steal soul
#LanDroid: bin Laden is over here because we are over there.
howbloom: and large-scale industrial socialism--Leninist Marxist societies--are run entirely by elites
MichaelangeloGlossolalia: elites don't so much steal soul as utilize people's tendency to kiss up to be at the center.
RickU: Elite's who start to fail almost always steal though
RickU: It's the basic problem with the capitalist structure.
howbloom: my job with reinventing capitalism is to show elites how to connect with their own passions
howbloom: and how to stop being robots
RickU: Because the elites who succeeded initially always have the power to steal
MichaelangeloGlossolalia: an elitist creates a magnetic field that distorts expression, since everyone's mind is focused on getting to the center of the anthill.
howbloom: by connecting with the people they serve, not by connecting with the peer group they hope to impress
RickU: initially
howbloom: back to the magazine
howbloom: it took me a year of trying all kinds of things to find how to connect to my audience
RickU: I agree how - you must connect with your own passion to prevail
howbloom: how to be in tune with its hungers and its heart
howbloom: which meant it took me a year to find techniques that let my audience guide me
howbloom: \that let my audience educate me
Chris OConnor: interesting perspective
howbloom: that let my audience become the, how do a put this?
howbloom: the crucible of my own passions
howbloom: helping me find passions I didn't know I had
howbloom: then I went to my publisher
howbloom: I laid out a plan
howbloom: a plan for totally changing the magazine
howbloom: a plan for making it fit my audience's hungers month after month after month
howbloom: and because other people do not measure success in terms of passion, in terms of soul
howbloom: I implied that he'd make money
howbloom: I told him outright I'd increase his sales
howbloom: he let me do it
howbloom: I made a new kind of music magazine, the kind my audience, and audiences and editors in Germany and France who's music magazines I'd studied, had taught me how to make
howbloom: our sales did something strange
howbloom: they shot up month by month by month
howbloom: in twelve months we had increased our circulation 211%
howbloom: why?
Chris OConnor: What were the actual changes you made? give us something more tangible
howbloom: because I didn't give a shit about the people in the industry, the insider elite
Chris OConnor: I can appreciate that, but what did you actually do to the mag?
howbloom: I wanted to expand my senses, I wanted to learn from the kids I worked for, I wanted to champion them in every way\
howbloom: prophetic leadership leads to profits
howbloom: ok, what did I do?
jznet: know your audience, deliver
Chris OConnor: Yes, what?
howbloom: my publisher thought that kids get bored by reading over and over again about the same bands
howbloom: so he had a policy
howbloom: cover a band once a year and that's it
Chris OConnor: Hmm
howbloom: but when he first hired me he told me he wanted his magazine to read like time magazine
howbloom: so I spent a year analyzing time
Naturyl: your publisher was pretty clueless
howbloom: and I found that it doesn't work the way he thought
howbloom: it works on a soap opera formula
#LanDroid: That sounds wrong, I'd want to read about King Crimson every month.
Naturyl: kids will read about Britney Spears every week for a year and never get tired of it
howbloom: you've got a star, like the president of the United States
RickU: Nat - only if the back story changes. There still ahs to be new intrigue
howbloom: you don't run a story that regurgitates his biography
pctacitus: not a great argument about kids when you put it that way
howbloom: you write a story about what he's doing this week
Chris OConnor: So you kept the readers up to speed on everything to do with the major bands
howbloom: and because real life is filled with cliff hangers
RickU: indeed
Naturyl: Rick: agreed. There has to be some new gossip every week, although the formula for generating such back-story is always the same.
howbloom: the story leaves you breathless waiting for next week's episode
howbloom: I discovered that my audience had stars
MichaelangeloGlossolalia: pc, unless you give kids an intellectual role model they can identify with, it won't help to think they're shallow
RickU: Why do you think the debates captured us so?
howbloom: stars none of the rock magazines were covering
howbloom: it had its equivalent to the President
howbloom: just as you would have wanted to read about King Crimson every month
howbloom: my audience was dying to read about Alice Cooper
pctacitus: I was really just hoping for someone better than Brittany Spears
howbloom: and, no, it didn't want just his bio
MichaelangeloGlossolalia: pc--you're welcome to start a band : )
howbloom: it wanted to know what was happening to him this month
howbloom: and how the cliff-hanging end left of
howbloom: leaving you waiting for what happened next
RickU: And I'll bet the same basic journalistic questions applies - who what when where and why!
howbloom: one of the things that stamped itself into me not long after Einstein told me that to be a scientist you had to be a writer
RickU: If you based it in speculation...YAY National Enquirer
howbloom: was this tidbit about writing
howbloom: a good writer can find a good story