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Sam Harris and Jerry Coyne interview

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Dexter

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Sam Harris and Jerry Coyne interview

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I haven't listened to it yet, but should be interesting

http://www.samharris.org/blog/item/faith-vs.-fact

If you have an iPhone (and probably others), you can find it through the Podcast app
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Robert Tulip

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Re: Sam Harris and Jerry Coyne interview

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Hi Dexter I listened to this hour long interview and found it rather disappointing, preaching to the scientific choir and not really engaging on the problem of whether faith can be reformed to make it compatible with fact. Coyne simply assumes that faith promotes falsity, but this approach begs the question regarding the value of faith, which is more ethical and social than a method of assessing factual claims. Coyne fallaciously jumps from the true observation that you have to be a moron to support some religious beliefs to the false conclusion that the content of religious belief is intrinsically and entirely moronic.
Here are comments on Coyne's brand new book from Amazon: http://www.amazon.com/Faith-Versus-Fact ... 0670026530
“[N]one make the case for the final divorce of religion and science, with permanent restraining orders against harassment and stalking of science by religion, better than Coyne.”—Ray Olson, Booklist (starred review)

“An important book that deserves an open-minded readership.”—Kirkus Reviews

“Many people are confused about science—about what it is, how it is practiced, and why it is the most powerful method for understanding ourselves and the universe that our species has ever devised. In Faith vs. Fact, Coyne has written a wonderful primer on what it means to think scientifically, showing that the honest doubts of science are better—and more noble—than the false certainties of religion. This is a profound and lovely book. It should be required reading at every college on earth.”
—Sam Harris, author of The End of Faith, The Moral Landscape, and Waking Up

“The distinguished geneticist Jerry Coyne trains his formidable intellectual firepower on religious faith, and it’s hard to see how any reasonable person can resist the conclusions of his superbly argued book. Though religion will live on in the minds of the unlettered, in educated circles faith is entering its death throes. Symptomatic of its terminal desperation are the ‘apophatic’ pretensions of ‘sophisticated theologians,’ for whose empty obscurantism Coyne reserves his most devastating sallies. Read this book and recommend it to two friends.”
—Richard Dawkins, author of The God Delusion

“The truth is not always halfway between two extremes: some propositions are flat wrong. In this timely and important book, Jerry Coyne expertly exposes the incoherence of the increasingly popular belief that you can have it both ways: that God (or something God-ish, God-like, or God-oid) sort-of exists; that miracles kind-of happen; and that the truthiness of dogma is somewhat-a-little-bit-more-or-less-who’s-to-say-it-isn’t like the truths of science and reason.”
—Steven Pinker, Johnstone Family Professor of Psychology, Harvard University; author of The Better Angels of Our Nature
Last edited by Robert Tulip on Thu May 21, 2015 2:28 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Sam Harris and Jerry Coyne interview

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Fair enough. Harris did make the concession that people can be motivated to do good things by religion.

But as they said, you can't pretend that religion, as people actually observe it, doesn't make claims about the world that conflict with science.

You're not going to find too many atheists who are as favorable towards faith as you are.

Edit: grammar
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Re: Sam Harris and Jerry Coyne interview

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Dexter wrote:you can't pretend that religion, as people actually observe it, don't make claims about the world that conflict with science.
True, but that is a completely different thing from the headline for Coyne's book at Amazon "any attempt to make religion compatible with science is doomed to fail."

Of course religion can be changed to make it compatible with science, just by accepting that all the imaginary fluff is symbolic. The fact that people find this recognition to be an emotional challenge is separate from whether it is logically possible for human society to evolve to make faith and reason compatible.

Science does not actually exclude statements of faith except in the extreme solipsist version which claims we can't even be certain that the universe exists. Excluding faith involves a reduction to absurdity.

Coyne's syllogism is fallacious. He appears to argue:
A: religion makes claims that conflict with science.
B: These claims are wrong, therefore
C: Any attempt to make religion compatible with science is doomed to fail.
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Re: Sam Harris and Jerry Coyne interview

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This is more of the same oversimplistic nonsense:

Religious literalism vs atheist literalism.
Something that new atheists cant get over.

The only thing more literal than a religious fundamentalist is a militant atheist.

In my opinion, this is a complete waste of time .
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Re: Sam Harris and Jerry Coyne interview

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ant wrote:The only thing more literal than a religious fundamentalist is a militant atheist.
What are atheists interpreting literally? I don't understand.
In the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and has been widely regarded as a bad move.” - Douglas Adams
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Re: Sam Harris and Jerry Coyne interview

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Interbane wrote:What are atheists interpreting literally?
Evidence, observation, logic, coherence, consistency, time, space, matter, energy, motion, life, causality, existence, evolution.

These should all be interpreted literally. They are what they are and not something else.

For religionists to imply that these scientific principles and themes and axioms have the same epistemic status as false ancient imaginary fantasies illustrates Coyne's point about the intense stupidity of religion when it refuses to give ground to reason.

Negotiated settlements involve both parties giving things up. Science should give up its disdain towards faith, theology, worship and ritual, while religion should give up its claims to any epistemological priority over science.
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Re: Sam Harris and Jerry Coyne interview

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As in: thunder is literally not god bowling in heaven?
In the absence of God, I found Man.
-Guillermo Del Torro

Are you pushing your own short comings on us and safely hating them from a distance?

Is this the virtue of faith? To never change your mind: especially when you should?

Young Earth Creationists take offense at the idea that we have a common heritage with other animals. Why is being the descendant of a mud golem any better?
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Re: Sam Harris and Jerry Coyne interview

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johnson1010 wrote:As in: thunder is literally not god bowling in heaven?
My dad told me when I was about six that thunder was caused by clouds banging into each other. I believed this for some years, and was eventually embarrassed to have a 'Santa Claus moment' when I mentioned this to a friend. I wish some Christians could have their own Santa Claus moments about the invention of Jesus.

I once told a younger boy that I had a pet rhinoceros, which was my idea of a joke. His mother had to ask me not to tell lies since her son literally believed me.

Gullibility illustrates how myths can evolve memetically. Coyne would be more helpful if he conducted an evolutionary analysis of how religion could adapt instead of his take no prisoners campaign.
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Re: Sam Harris and Jerry Coyne interview

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Harris's arguments are juvenille. His followers are even dumber and have nothing of substance to add.

It wasnt uncommon for people of antiquity to write metaphorically. Im not aware of anything in the Bible where a cla8m is made that scripture is to be interpreted as mechanistic explanations for natural phenomena. Theologians as far back as Augustine have been saying quite the opposite actually.
Its the small ffundamentalist segment that interprets scripture literally that new atheists like Harris use to characterize faith broadly and create caricatures of religious people as being dumb asses who reject science.
So as long as new atheists continue to strawman religion, tbey will continue to reason and argue fallaciously. More books will be sold and more self proclaimed "brights" will continue to feed off the nonesense in order to create an "us vs them" war which just serves as a way to feel superior.

Arguments that faith is antithetical to reason are spurious. Its an argument that Harris and Dawkins promote.
The facts tell a different story.
Many people of faith have utilized the highest powers of reason to advance humanity.
Its in the history books. Read some history and dont add your own biased slope or conspiracy theories.
And lastly, people who rejected faith have done no better at advancing peace.
You dont need religion to commit murder, rape, and war.


New athesim has nothing practical to offer. Its poor reasoning and foolish arrogance blinds it.

If you want to explore legitimate athesitic philosophy, i recommend great thinkers like Nietzsche, Schopenhauer, Sarte, and Camus. Their brand of atheism has enforced one truth that Ive lived by for a long time:
You arent likely to get bailed out by an unknown. Pick yourself up by your bootstraps and get to work with others that will work beside you to make the world a better place.
Last edited by ant on Fri May 22, 2015 11:46 am, edited 1 time in total.
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