I would like to focus on truth #9. I was pleased to see this one included, because although it contains some minor errors, it illustrates that Christianity is originally based on natural astronomical observation, not supernatural imagination.
Quote:
There is no “End of the World” in the Bible. Christian Eschatology is an entire branch of study dedicated to understanding the destiny of man as it is revealed in the Bible, particularly the “end of the world”. What is shocking to Christians is that there is virtually no Biblical foundation for any of it. While there is plenty of discussion throughout the New Testament regarding the return of Jesus and Judgment day, there is nothing about the “end of the world”. The New Testament, talks about the end of the “Age,” not the end of the world.
'Eschatology' means the study of end times. The King James Bible famously mistranslated Age as World. This is a very interesting error, because the Greek word in question, Aion, also means dispensation, which could be translated as paradigm or worldview. So the statement is that Jesus predicts the end of a worldview or false mindset. It is about how fundamentalist Christians are false prophets and we have to turn to the true prophecy of science.
Quote:
What is the “end of the age?” It deals with astrology and represents a period of some 25,920 years.
No, this is astronomy, not astrology. There is a pervasive error that anything to do with the zodiac is automatically astrology. The actual period of the earth's spin wobble, producing the precession of the equinox around the zodiac, is 25765 years, fractionally short of the traditional number 25920 which is the closest product of small primes, and incidentally quite related to the 666, equalling 6x6x6x6x5x4.
Quote:
Each age is represented by an astrological sign such as Gemini, Aquarius, etc. During the time of Jesus, it was the age of Aires [sic], which is represented by the Ram and, depending on your interpretation, ended sometime between the years 1 and 100 CE (the supposed time of Jesus).
The equinox moved into Pisces in 20 AD, so any suggestion it was still in Aries is wrong. Jesus is the turning point.
Quote:
The new age, which we are still in today and will last for another 600 years, is Pisces.
If the Great Year is 25920, one twelfth of it is 2160, so this extra 600 years bizzo is just based on IAU constellation boundaries. In fact, we are probably already in the Age of Aquarius, since the whole orbital framework is also spinning in the opposite direction.
Quote:
Pisces is represented by the astrological symbol of two fish, which is still used by Christians to this very day. Most Christians are shocked to find out that the New Testament is full of astrology, and that the end of the age of Aires [sic], the new age of Pisces, and the second coming of Jesus are all quite related.
Yes, most Christians are idiots. They have been systematically brainwashed to assume anything that explains the Bible as natural is from Satan. In fact, it is the lies of orthodoxy that are Satanic.
Quote:
What becomes perfectly clear by reading the pages of the gospels is that the writers of the New Testament quite seriously thought that the New Kingdom of Jesus would come in the 1st Century CE when the Age of Aires ended. They were wrong. Now, I have met a few Christians that will admit there is no mention of the end of the world in the Bible, but that is very rare indeed. Most firmly believe that the Bible discusses the end of the world. It doesn’t. Even the Book of Revelations with all its horrors does not have an end of the world scenario.
I don't know about that. Revelation 13 has the beast of the apocalypse, followed by the appearance of the lamb with 144,000 faithful on Mount Zion, and the seven vials and the battle of Armageddon. The implication is that only a small remnant of humanity will survive from the Age of Pisces into the Age of Aquarius.
Last edited by Robert Tulip on Thu Aug 18, 2011 4:48 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Top ten things christians don't know about the bible.
Quote:
Robert wrote:
Yes, most Christians are idiots. They have been systematically brainwashed to assume anything that explains the Bible as natural is from Satan. In fact, it is the lies of orthodoxy that are Satanic.
But they are not idiots.....they are taught from childhood....so yes, brainwashed.....'This is the right way to be' they are taught.....They want to behave and do what is right.,...That is NOT idiotic....That is just misled....and understandably so.
I want to do what is right, and I once believed what I was taught by my elders and betters......THAT DOES NOT MAKE ME AN IDIOT.
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Re: Top ten things christians don't know about the bible.
Hi Penelope, nice to hear from you, I hope you are keeping well.
You are quite right that my comment should be qualified, given the derogatory implication of widespread idiocy. I do tend to think our world is rather idiotic, with a lack of ability to engage in serious discussion, and I do blame the acceptance of false Christian dogmas as a significant contributing factor. The context was the statement "Most Christians are shocked to find out that the New Testament is full of astrology". In fact, most Christians are not shocked by this, because they never encounter it, and if they do they often react with visceral repugnance and denial rather than shock. The idiotic assumption here within Christianity is that anything that challenges their dogma is automatically evil and wrong. Granted, many Christians are more open minded, but you cannot be both open minded and a true believer. You cannot serve two masters.
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Re: Top ten things christians don't know about the bible.
The phrase 'you cannot serve two masters' is biblical isn't it and assumes a servile postion towards 'God'. But that is a biblical idea isn't it? Jewish in origin, whereby this capricious God....demands obedience...,.to the lengths of sacrificing ones own son (Isaac, I mean here, not Jesus, who is depicted, in the most acceptable form as 'God manifest in the flesh'). Otherwise the whole father/son idea is truely gross.
But the idea developed in other parts of the globe, without jewish input, sees God as permeating everything, not to be obeyed, but to be 'assimilated' into ones being - thereby imparting enlightenment as to what is virtuous behaviour.
I am thinking about the witch hunts in England in the early 17th century. Most people at that time could not read or write. They went to church very regularly, not only so as not to be outcasts, but to hear the sermon and be 'told' how God wanted them to behave. And to be taught the gospel and hear it expounded upon. As people always are, they seem to take on board what was most convenient. The witches of Pendle, were convicted on the evidence of a nine year old girl, the daughter of one and the sister and niece of others who were consequently hanged. They were a rough and inconvenient family to have around it would seem. But people were probably most afraid to speak out against the injustice for fear of being labelled witches themselves.
Anyway, I think the development of the printing press, and the ability of people to read and to share ideas, changed society for the good. A bit like the internet....in spite of its alleged use recently as 'an incitement to riot'.
Why am I saying all this? Because the title of this thread is about Christians not knowing about the bible. I am only reflecting that that may be because the tradition of the church was to tell the congregation what the bible said and what it meant, before they could read. In fact, I believe the Roman Catholic Church actually discouraged its adherents from reading the bible for themselves.
The point is that we do need rules and a philosophy to live by, and we need to agree on what those rules are. You will disagree but - the Christian church has served a purpose there, because most of its basic rules are very sound.
If we are going to live in an ethical world, we need a rule book. If we see human life on this planet as one big football game...,..then it is no use our all piling in and just kicking the ball around with no object. We must have agreed goalposts and suss out the point of the game. We must know it is wrong to foul and kick the player instead of the ball. We need to understand how not to get caught in the off-side trap (OK, I just made that last one up!). What Gautama Buddha taught is almost identical to what Jesus Christ taught with regard to the rules of the game.
We seem to be fighting and killing mostly about who built the stadium.
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Re: Top ten things christians don't know about the bible.
Penelope wrote:
The phrase 'you cannot serve two masters' is biblical isn't it and assumes a servile postion towards 'God'. But that is a biblical idea isn't it? Jewish in origin, whereby this capricious God....demands obedience...,.to the lengths of sacrificing ones own son (Isaac, I mean here, not Jesus, who is depicted, in the most acceptable form as 'God manifest in the flesh'). Otherwise the whole father/son idea is truely gross.
Yes, it was our gracious good lord who said you cannot serve truth and money (God and mammon). I'm not sure that suggested servility to the divine though, it was more a critique of how popular culture is servile towards money. There is a difference between serving an idea and being servile.
Quote:
The point is that we do need rules and a philosophy to live by, and we need to agree on what those rules are. You will disagree but - the Christian church has served a purpose there, because most of its basic rules are very sound.
But the problem this raises is that it implies we should respect Christian rules for their utility, not for their basis in truth. The argument is that Christianity is better than irreligion, so ignore the faults of Christianity and focus on its ethical value. That is a problematic argument, because it stops people from investigating scientifically the evolution of Christian culture.
Quote:
If we are going to live in an ethical world, we need a rule book. If we see human life on this planet as one big football game...,..then it is no use our all piling in and just kicking the ball around with no object. We must have agreed goalposts and suss out the point of the game. We must know it is wrong to foul and kick the player instead of the ball. We need to understand how not to get caught in the off-side trap (OK, I just made that last one up!). What Gautama Buddha taught is almost identical to what Jesus Christ taught with regard to the rules of the game.
We seem to be fighting and killing mostly about who built the stadium.
There is actually quite a real difference between Buddhism and Christianity, in that Buddhism taught that there is nothing we can do to reduce suffering except withdraw from the world and become a model of serenity, while Christianity taught that engagement with the world can be transformative and atoning, rescuing the world from its path towards destruction. We don't see any 'fighting and killing' over these abstract ethical ideals, rather the issue, especially with Islam, is the use of religion as a unifying symbol for cultural war.
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Re: Top ten things christians don't know about the bible.
Quote:
Robert wrote:
There is a difference between serving an idea and being servile.
I don't think you can 'serve' an idea, unless you mean adopting an ideology. One would 'use' an idea, I would have thought.
Quote:
Robert:
But the problem this raises is that it implies we should respect Christian rules for their utility, not for their basis in truth. The argument is that Christianity is better than irreligion, so ignore the faults of Christianity and focus on its ethical value. That is a problematic argument, because it stops people from investigating scientifically the evolution of Christian culture.
I don't think it is a matter of 'should', but that we automatically respect a philosophy that works for people in all walks of life. Some people might respect it because of the power of the personality of the man Jesus and the promise of the spirit. Others might respect it because of the change that occurs in a person when they adopt the lifestyle. I admit I have been impressed by the changes in peoples' personalities on actively taking up 'religion', when I worked at the Salvation Army. I didn't believe the doctrine, but I respected it immensely because it appeared to work and improve peoples' lives.....not making them into servile withdrawers into monasteries, but actively involved, at the sharp end of social service. They seemed to become happier and more purposeful. Myself included.
Quote:
There is actually quite a real difference between Buddhism and Christianity, in that Buddhism taught that there is nothing we can do to reduce suffering except withdraw from the world and become a model of serenity, while Christianity taught that engagement with the world can be transformative and atoning, rescuing the world from its path towards destruction.
This is true, and the attitude to 'God' is very different. Buddhism teaches Karma, that one is always visited by retribution for ones 'sins' etc. Whereas, the Christian God is a God of Grace and forgiveness.....well, in the New Testament anyway.
Quote:
Robert Asked:
Do you think that Jesus got caught off side?
I don't know that Jesus actually existed, well, in the way we are taught to believe in him. Let's say that I don't believe the myth of the man himself but I do believe in the teachings attributed to him. He tried to get rid of all the ridiculous rules and regulations of the Jews. He said we should love one another by doing as we would be done by. It was so simple......
He even gave us a clue.....Love your neighbour as yourself. So, we have to love ourselves first or we can't love our neighbour. We can't even 'like' ourselves unless we attempt to live by certain standards and can look ourselves in the face.
The argument is that Christianity is better than irreligion, so ignore the faults of Christianity and focus on its ethical value.
I think Jesus tried to promote irreligion.......you know, new wine in new vessels........getting rid of all the religiosity of the old Jewish Faith.
I don't think Jesus was caught in the off-side trap. I think he got sent off, red card, for telling us to stop playing their game by their rules and play it by His/Our rules. He only gave us one rule and the rest we had to work out for ourselves. Robert, I don't think he would have been very interested in the evolution and history of what we have come to label, Christianity.
_________________ Stand firm in your refusal to remain conscious during algebra. In real life, I assure you, there is no such thing as algebra.
So what did Mel Gibson base his grotesque movie on? You’ll have to ask him.
Jesus was flogged - Mark 15:15 John 19:1. If that is not a cruel and grotesque aspect of crucifixion, then I don't know what it. So, the article is not entirely accurate by saying little is known about the account.
Quote:
There is no Resurrection of Jesus in the Bible.
False. Mark 16: 14 - 20
Quote:
What becomes perfectly clear by reading the pages of the gospels is that the writers of the New Testament quite seriously thought that the New Kingdom of Jesus would come in the 1st Century CE when the Age of Aires ended. They were wrong.
I'd like to see the source that the author is using for the above statement.
Quote:
Jesus is Against Marriage
I do not entirely disagree with that statement. It is fashioned, however, in a manner that is made to depict Jesus as anti- marriage PERIOD. I can not find anywhere in the bible that quotes Jesus as stating such. Can you? Reference it, please.
Atheists that take every opportunity to bash religion for the sake of bashing are no better than the people they despise. The article and website is meant strictly for that purpose alone. It is not a serious scholarly attempt to discuss the historicity of the time.
_________________ "Quantum mechanics is very worthy of regard. But an inner voice tells me that this is not yet the right track. The theory yields much, but it hardly brings us closer to the Old One's secrets. I, in any case, am convinced that He does not play dice" - Albert Einstein.
The philosopher Richard Paul has described three kinds of people: vulgar believers, who use slogans and platitudes to bully those holding different points of view into agreeing with them; sophisticated believers, who are skilled at using intellectual arguments, but only to defend what they already believe; and critical believers, who reason their way to conclusions and are ready to listen to others."
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Re: Top ten things christians don't know about the bible.
Quote:
They have been systematically brainwashed to assume anything that explains the Bible as natural is from Satan. In fact, it is the lies of orthodoxy that are Satanic.
Source, please?
_________________ "Quantum mechanics is very worthy of regard. But an inner voice tells me that this is not yet the right track. The theory yields much, but it hardly brings us closer to the Old One's secrets. I, in any case, am convinced that He does not play dice" - Albert Einstein.
The philosopher Richard Paul has described three kinds of people: vulgar believers, who use slogans and platitudes to bully those holding different points of view into agreeing with them; sophisticated believers, who are skilled at using intellectual arguments, but only to defend what they already believe; and critical believers, who reason their way to conclusions and are ready to listen to others."
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Re: Top ten things christians don't know about the bible.
ant wrote:
Quote:
They have been systematically brainwashed to assume anything that explains the Bible as natural is from Satan. In fact, it is the lies of orthodoxy that are Satanic.
Source, please?
1 John 2:22 Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son. 2 John 1:7 For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist. John 8:44 You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desires. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks his native language, for he is a liar and the father of lies. 45 Yet because I tell the truth, you do not believe me! Deuteronomy 4:19 And when you look up to the sky and see the sun, the moon and the stars—all the heavenly array—do not be enticed into bowing down to them and worshiping things the LORD your God has apportioned to all the nations under heaven. Deuteronomy 4:23 Be careful not to forget the covenant of the LORD your God that he made with you; do not make for yourselves an idol in the form of anything the LORD your God has forbidden. 24 For the LORD your God is a consuming fire, a jealous God.
The interpretation of these texts, with many others, has been that a supernatural miraculous entity intervened on our planet, and warned people to believe in him alone or else. To "interpret the Bible as natural" is not compatible with these Biblical injunctions. It involves seeing that divinity, such as it exists, is reflected in nature, contrary to the transcendent dominion idea of Judeo-Christian civilization.
2 John 1:7 speaks of the deceiver as the source of the Christ Myth Theory. This is a very heavy attack on Docetic Gnostics, reflecting the difficulty the early church apparently had in convincing people that Jesus actually existed.
The Gospel of John called the devil the father of lies. So where ever we see systematic lying, the Bible tells us that Satan is at work.
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Re: Top ten things christians don't know about the bible.
ant wrote:
Atheists that take every opportunity to bash religion for the sake of bashing are no better than the people they despise.
When you define yourself by your beliefs, you're bound to get a bit worked up when someone bashes those beliefs. Those beliefs aren't you, you're a human, they are ideas. They are worthy of bashing, if they are the supernatural foolishness that epitomizes mainstream religion. In fact, they should be bashed, because the main reason most young people can't see through the bullshit until it's too late is that everyone tiptoes around religion for fear of insulting others. Others such as you, who can't separate their beliefs from themselves. I don't despise Christians. They are humans and some are likely more intelligent than myself. But they are deluded. I despise the power of the beliefs, that cling so strongly to our minds in spite of humanity now being mature enough to replace them.
Penelope wrote:
Why am I saying all this? Because the title of this thread is about Christians not knowing about the bible. I am only reflecting that that may be because the tradition of the church was to tell the congregation what the bible said and what it meant, before they could read. In fact, I believe the Roman Catholic Church actually discouraged its adherents from reading the bible for themselves.
I think you're right. One thing I've never considered is how well structured the church is to deliver "Christianity" without anyone having to read a word. I would have called myself a full fledged Christian before I even read a sentence. With a detour through the mouth of someone you've shook hands with, and someone who is extremely respectable to yourself, the words become believable. I'd think some people would believe every single word. Because that's what we do, we trust our grown-ups to inform us and teach us about the world. But my dad made me skeptical from a very early age, and that immunity had already dug it's roots too deeply into my mind for religion to take hold.
With anything that is demi-evolutionary in development like the memes of a religion, certain historical forces linger that may be hard to discern. Christianity has a very refined and far-reaching word-of-mouth transmission system, perfected after centuries. It's no wonder that it continues even today, catching so many people with ideas at pre-reading ages. Even for illiterate adults; it's structured for you to sit there, shut your mouth, and absorb information. No feedback, no questions. Even an adult would have no option but to sit there and listen.
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Re: Top ten things christians don't know about the bible.
Quote:
Interbane wrote:
I think you're right. One thing I've never considered is how well structured the church is to deliver "Christianity" without anyone having to read a word.
When Christianity was being established in Europe, over several hundred years, most of the population couldn't read or write. They went to Church to 'hear' a sermon and take communion and it was all very theatrical, stained glass windows were placed there to entertain people whilst they waited to receive mass. The Roman Catholic Service was delivered in Latin and even written in Latin in the Prayer Book, so most people didn't understand what was being said. It is only in my lifetime that the Roman Catholic Church changed to an English format. And then many people didn't like this move, Preferring Latin, because they believed that the priest was the mediator between God and man and that you couldn't, as a lay-person, speak to god directly yourself. They did pray to various saints though. But the priest would be the only one who understood Latin, thereby holding on to the mystique.
Translated the Bible into English 16th/17th century, so that it could be read by those privilidged with an education, but was centuries before the common man was able to read for himself.
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Re: Top ten things christians don't know about the bible.
Quote:
The interpretation of these texts, with many others, has been that a supernatural miraculous entity intervened on our planet, and warned people to believe in him alone or else. To "interpret the Bible as natural" is not compatible with these Biblical injunctions. It involves seeing that divinity, such as it exists, is reflected in nature, contrary to the transcendent dominion idea of Judeo-Christian civilization.
Interpretation of anything, particularly religious scripture of any sort (not just biblical) is open-ended. It is not surprising that most of the scripture you've indicated as backing your claim of anything not "natural" is false, of the devil, should be ignored, etc, speaks of the duality of good vs evil. That's what it is, and that's what was promulgated in the context of that era. You are over-generalizing that all Christians in our time now interpret scripture like this as being anti everything professed as "natural" by man. Perhaps christian fundamentalist do, but not all christians. Is your problem with fundamentalist interpretations? Then lets talk about Islam as well. There scriputure is quite clear in relation to the killing of non-believers.
_________________ "Quantum mechanics is very worthy of regard. But an inner voice tells me that this is not yet the right track. The theory yields much, but it hardly brings us closer to the Old One's secrets. I, in any case, am convinced that He does not play dice" - Albert Einstein.
The philosopher Richard Paul has described three kinds of people: vulgar believers, who use slogans and platitudes to bully those holding different points of view into agreeing with them; sophisticated believers, who are skilled at using intellectual arguments, but only to defend what they already believe; and critical believers, who reason their way to conclusions and are ready to listen to others."
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Re: Top ten things christians don't know about the bible.
Quote:
Others such as you, who can't separate their beliefs from themselves.
I'm not certain you know what my belifs are. If you believe you do, that's arrogant presumption on your part.
I despise people that feel justified in bashing someone's beliefs. It is not my job, nor yours, to bash someone that may be intellectually needy.
Thank you
_________________ "Quantum mechanics is very worthy of regard. But an inner voice tells me that this is not yet the right track. The theory yields much, but it hardly brings us closer to the Old One's secrets. I, in any case, am convinced that He does not play dice" - Albert Einstein.
The philosopher Richard Paul has described three kinds of people: vulgar believers, who use slogans and platitudes to bully those holding different points of view into agreeing with them; sophisticated believers, who are skilled at using intellectual arguments, but only to defend what they already believe; and critical believers, who reason their way to conclusions and are ready to listen to others."
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