To read fiction, or not to read fiction, dat be da question!

Chris OConnor

Everyone:

So who wants to start including fiction here at BookTalk?

We might draw a larger audience by doing so. I enjoy fantasy books with medieval or Dungeons & Dragons style settings. Any opinions?

Chris

"When once you have tasted flight, you will forever walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward,
for there you have been, and there you will always want to be."

-- Leonardo da Vinci

Thurkon17 · Posted: Thu Aug 22, 2002 7:58 am Post subject: re: Fiction

I agree that incorporating fiction in our book club is an interesting idea, as long as we don't forsake non-fiction. There's a good many non-fiction books out there I'd like to tackle.

Furthermore, as much as I love fantasy and science fiction, I feel our book club should steer away from it and try more challenging books. After all, our goal here is to read and discuss. How do you discuss, say, a Conan novel?

"Boy, I loved when he lopped off that guy's head...that was cool."

We need fiction that challenges us to think and explore the layers within...without forsaking entertainment, of course.

But I did love when Conan lopped off that guy's head.

greg in the machine · Posted: Thu Aug 22, 2002 9:28 am Post subject: Re: re: Fiction

There is a great deal of sci-fi / fantasy literature that goes far beyond guys getting their heads lopped off. It's hard to see it sometimes because the shelves of the sci-fi / fantasy sections are overloaded with glossy-covered nonsense, but there is worthwhile stuff out there.

Some works that come immediately to mind:

The Lord of the Rings trilogy by J.R.R. Tolkien (fantasy)

The Elric Saga by Michael Moorcock (fantasy)

A Deepness in the Sky by Vernor Vinge (sci-fi)

Ringworld by Larry Niven (sci-fi)

The Songs of Distant Earth by Arthur C. Clarke (sci-fi)

Also, Jean Auel's entire Earth's Children series (speculative historical fiction) and John Case's The Genesis Code (biomedical suspense) are good choices.

All of these books qualify as "challenging", some containing deep layers of human meaning and others exploring advanced concepts in physics, engineering, or anthropology. However, they are works of fiction and are therefore written to be entertaining. All of the layered meaning and scientific accuracy in the world can't force enjoyment on those who feel that simply getting sucked in by a good story is somehow beneath them. Imagination is not something which one can be spoon-fed.

I don't think anyone here at BookTalk would seriously consider eschewing non-fiction - least of all me (I read my first astronomy book at seven and finished Cosmos before my 12th birthday). But, in my opinion, BookTalk is quickly becoming HardScienceAtheistTalk, and that was not this organizations intended purpose. I think a 2:1 or 3:1 ratio of non-fiction to fiction would be appropriate.

Whatever is decided here, I will be carrying on discussions of fiction books in the Fiction forum with whomever would like to join in. Lauren and I are going to discuss John Case's The Genisis Code and Michael Crichton's Timeline later this month or early in the next, and we'll probably bring it up during September's scheduled chat as well. Us dum peeple just gots ta have are story books.

G

Chris OConnor · Posted: Thu Aug 22, 2002 11:26 am Post subject: Re: re: Fiction

Thurkon:

"Boy, I loved when he lopped off that guy's head...that was cool."

ROFLMAO

This is the first thing I read today upon waking up! LOL That's hilarious. Yes, our discussions might be somewhat shallow with books like Conan.

Greg:

Have you read anything by Joel Rosenberg or Jack L. Chalker?

Chris

"When once you have tasted flight, you will forever walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward,
for there you have been, and there you will always want to be."

-- Leonardo da Vinci

Thurkon17 · Posted: Thu Aug 22, 2002 4:03 pm Post subject: Re: Fiction

Greg:

Don't get me wrong...I love Frank Herbert, J.R.R. Tolkien, Michael Moorcock, Isaac Asimov, etc. as much as the next pencil-necked geek, but do I think it's substantive literature? Depends. I think a good fantasy/sci-fi writer is as good as any "serious" writer, but I also see limits within the genre. Not the entire genre, just the bulk of it.

The Lord of the Rings is an incredible book... incredible...but I'm not sure a discussion of ideas and themes behind the novel will go far. Maybe I'm wrong. A discussion of the intricacies of the plot, yes...but layers of meaning and themes? I don't want to make the trilogy sound superficial...it's not...it's just a different kind of novel. That genre leans toward wonder, fantasy, adventure...not so much towards the state of the human condition, philosophy, socio-political concerns, etc...at least not in depth.

But I could be wrong.

And I still loved when Conan lopped off that guy's head.

greg in the machine · Posted: Fri Aug 23, 2002 9:08 am Post subject: Re: Fiction

Thurkon,

That's exactly of what I'm getting at. Why can't the discussion focus on plot, character development, and the thoughts that people have on what is essentially just a good story? Why is it assumed that all of BookTalk's book discussions must revolve around scientific or philosophical themes? Putting aside the arguement about whether or not deep meaning can be found in these works - and I believe it can - what's wrong with having a conversation about basic story elements, like the heroic journey or the power of myth?

I love philosophical and scientific debates - just ask Chris - but there's more to reading than absorbing facts. To take the position that fiction is less substantial than non-fiction is to ultimately say that art has less value than science. Such an idea is as sad as it is untrue.

Again, no one is asking for a "switch over" to fiction, but only it's inclusion on a 2:1 or 3:1 basis. BookTalk should present a representative variety of written works to its members, and fiction accounts for a huge percentage of what is published every year. To ignore it entirely is folly.

G

Thurkon17 · Posted: Sat Aug 24, 2002 7:42 am Post subject: Greg

I feel you're misunderstanding me. I never compared the entirety of fiction to non-fiction, or claimed that one was somehow better than the other. There's planty of fiction that is just as deep and meaningful, if not more so, than non-fiction.

I just feel that we should approach our picks of fiction as we do non-fiction. We should pick books that will illicit rewarding conversation. A discussion of plot is fine and well, but my preference is that we pick books where a discussion of plot isn't all that particular book has to offer.

LanDroid · Posted: Sat Aug 24, 2002 3:30 pm Post subject: Fiction?

I'd be up for a book by Vinge. Haven't read any of his books, but if you Google on "singularity Vinge" you'll see his new book makes some weird predictions about the techno-future.

Or A.C. Clarke. I'm not an expert on sci-fi, but he's my favorite so far.

Chris OConnor · Posted: Sat Aug 31, 2002 12:03 am Post subject: Re: Fiction?

It appears we all agree that fiction should be included here at BookTalk. Exactly which books we will leave to the nomination process and polling process. If the majority of people wish to read a fiction book about lopping off someones head, we might have to have a little pow-wow in the chat room. LOL

I think we have a fairly educated group of members. I doubt we will be having any Agatha Christie mysteries on the ballot anytime soon, but we shall see. I tend to agree with Thurkon in that we need to try to steer the group towards books with some type of depth. So far we haven't had any problems with this, so lets just take it one month at a time right now.

Chris

"When once you have tasted flight, you will forever walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward,
for there you have been, and there you will always want to be."

-- Leonardo da Vinci

AckItsJamie · Posted: Wed Sep 04, 2002 4:00 pm Post subject: Re: Fiction?

It is quite possible to have a meaningful discussion on scifi/fantasy novels. One of the best classes I took in college was a sociology class called 'Fantasy and Social Values.' We read 6 scifi/fantasy novels during the course of the class, and I was amazed at the discussions we got out of the fiction. One of the great things about this genre is it allows the 'what if?" question.

If we decide to read fiction, I have a suggestion for a book that would be perfect, and would definitely inspire discussion. It is probably the best scifi book I have read, although scifi is just the environment, the book is really much deeper than a space opera shoot-em-up.

The book is 'Ender's Game' by Orson Scott Card. I was so impressed by this book that after I read it, I went out to buy copies for my friends and family. Everyone, literally everyone, thought the book was amazing, even the people that aren't into this genre. Most people said they could barely put it down, one of my friends read the whole thing in one sitting.

I really can't say enough about this book, it is truly excellent, but I don't want to give any of it away.

Chris OConnor · Posted: Wed Sep 04, 2002 6:04 pm Post subject: Re: Fiction?

Jamie:

I too have read some incredible fiction and I am fully open to reading "Enders Game" in October. You should post this suggestion in the "Book of the Month Suggestions" forum and stir up some interest. I think I might vote for it with such an endorsement and you just gave it.

By the way...I am about to post that Jared Diamond has agreed to make a guest appearance in our chat room on the night of our scheduled chat the first week in October. Yes, this is the actual author.

Chris

"When once you have tasted flight, you will forever walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward,
for there you have been, and there you will always want to be."

-- Leonardo da Vinci


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