The Rebel Flag and Patriotism

johnson1010 · Fri Aug 06, 2010 1:50 pm

Why is it that people with rebel flags on their trucks think of themselves as patriotic?

They are running around with the symbol of the greatest treasonous act in the history of our country stamped all over their vehicles.

If you asked them, though, i am pretty sure you would get something like "F#@* Yeah! 'merka's the SH!^! WHARGARBLE!"

cliffball · Wed Aug 11, 2010 1:31 pm

Well, I think a lot of people equate the Rebel flag with being a rebel, and a lot of people don't give much thought to the actual history. For others, even though the War was about slavery(according to the CSA Constitution), don't want to think about it that way, but view it as being patriotic to a fallen nation. Then there are others who think that probably it's sticking their thumbs in the eye of the US Federal Government, as a way to project their feelings about the state of the nation.

On the other hand, maybe I'm completely wrong.

President Camacho · Wed Aug 11, 2010 2:05 pm

What caused the civil war was tragic. No one should be a slave. The confederate flag means slavery. It means slavery is ok and the person flying the flag is proud of that idea.

It's a thought... A dream!!! That every man should be prosperous enough to own other men. To have other men work for them for only food and lodging. For men to be without unions. For men to be mere tools and means for another man's happiness.

Slavery has been going on since time immemorial. It's written in the earliest histories (Herodotus). It's now considered wrong.

The southern portion of the United States was caught up in liberal left-wing shenanigans when the Republican party of the U.S. decided to make slavery illegal. I'm not an expert but this seems to be THE reason for the war. Congress had been holding off the question for quite some time... Slavery had become distasteful to the American ideal of freedom and the businesses of the south that utilized slaves just couldn't allow it. They felt their very way of life was in jeopardy.

The line was drawn and war was declared. If someone chooses to fly the Rebel flag it's because they are in favor of slavery. Nothing more.

Why give alternate meaning to what is? Why fool ourselves? Why? Why say that one thing is something else when it is obviously for a specific reason. This reason was THE reason. All other minor contributing factors would have not caused this war. But this one did! It is THIS reason. So... there it is. That's it for all time. Done. Relate one to the other. It's ok to do so. Use the same conviction that those that fought to keep slaves did - but use yours for the greater good and for humanity, not for evil.

Kevin · Wed Aug 11, 2010 6:24 pm


	President Camacho wrote: The southern portion of the United States was caught up in liberal left-wing shenanigans when the Republican party of the U.S. decided to make slavery illegal.

This is an intriguing description! So what were these liberal left-wing shenanigans under which the antebellum South found itself saddled?


	Quote: I'm not an expert but this seems to be THE reason for the war.

It wasn't. The reason for the war was that Lincoln believed it was the only way for the states to remain united. I didn't give any specifics or even a reasoned argument to support my claim.

President Camacho · Wed Aug 11, 2010 6:48 pm

Well. We're talking about States rights versus Federal control. We're talking about liberty, equality for all men under the law, larger government/broader government control... I think this puts Lincoln in a more liberal than conservative light. I think anyone would be hard pressed to argue this.

The South was an agrarian society. They needed slaves. Messing with slaves meant messing with a region's livelihood.

Taken from About.com:

1. Economic and social differences between the North and the South.

With Eli Whitney's invention of the cotton gin in 1793, cotton became very profitable. This machine was able to reduce the time it took to separate seeds from the cotton. However, at the same time the increase in the number of plantations willing to move from other crops to cotton meant the greater need for a large amount of cheap labor, i.e. slaves. Thus, the southern economy became a one crop economy, depending on cotton and therefore on slavery. On the other hand, the northern economy was based more on industry than agriculture. In fact, the northern industries were purchasing the raw cotton and turning it into finished goods. This disparity between the two set up a major difference in economic attitudes. The South was based on the plantation system while the North was focused on city life. This change in the North meant that society evolved as people of different cultures and classes had to work together. On the other hand, the South continued to hold onto an antiquated social order.

I could be wrong here. I don't claim to know a lot about the civil war but from what I've read, slavery was THE main issue. It was THE breaking point. If there was no slavery debate the South just doesn't seem like it would have had any cause to secede. Why would it? What other reason could those in the South, at that time and under their circumstances, rally around to cause them to agree so strongly on secession?

President Camacho · Wed Aug 11, 2010 7:02 pm


	Quote: The reason for the war was that Lincoln believed it was the only way for the states to remain united.

Lincoln's decision for war was the result of a disagreement between southern members of congress who were pro slavery and those in the north that wanted it abolished. The north could get along fine without slaves. The south depended on them.

From http://www.historycentral.com/CivilWar/ ... omics.html

"What did the Confederacy hope to accomplish by seceding from the Union? The clearest goal was to defend and preserve the right of Southern Whites, including the right to own slaves."

Kevin · Wed Aug 11, 2010 7:20 pm


	President Camacho wrote: Well. We're talking about States rights versus Federal control. We're talking about liberty, equality for all men under the law, larger government/broader government control... I think this puts Lincoln in a more liberal than conservative light. I think anyone would be hard pressed to argue this.

OK I didn't realize that this was what you were alluding to in the previous post. I took it as arguing that "left-wing shenanigans" were why the South became a land of slavery and/or why it wanted to hold on to the institution. EDIT: So for the somewhat snarky tone of my previous post - I apologize.


	Quote: The South was an agrarian society. They needed slaves. Messing with slaves meant messing with a region's livelihood.

I'll argue (briefly) the supposition that it needed slavery. There was slavery in the east as well after all... and I bet arguments were made that it was a needed institution there too. The south didn't want to change. The north did. It was a war more of modernization vs. well... non-modernization. Regardless, none of this negates the claim that slavery was needed in the south. **Confidentally, I believe the horse was a more important commodity than slave labor** But yes, there was a real (or at least perceived) economic benefit involved in the south's decision to hold on as long as it did to the institution.

On a side note, I attended a high school named after Robert E Lee. Our school's song was Dixie. I do a lot of work (more than I care to actually but that's another story) in Louisiana and every 3 months I travel past a high school school with the moniker "Rebels" and their school flies the flag of the confederacy. I have mixed feelings about it... but I do grant that it's an odd situation.


	Quote: I could be wrong here. I don't claim to know a lot about the civil war but from what I've read, slavery was THE main issue. It was THE breaking point. If there was no slavery debate the South just doesn't seem like it would have had any cause to secede. Why would it?

I view slavery as being the cause celebre of the war. But I don't want to argue it. I don't want to be going to secondary sources myself... I wanted to argue the notion of left-wing agents being blamed for slavery in the South. ;-D

President Camacho · Thu Aug 12, 2010 5:02 am

I just meant that the north was trying to pressure the south to change.

retiredreader · Thu Aug 12, 2010 8:26 am

From a Canadian WASP point of view, those who fly the Confederate flag or use the Confederate symbol, are doing so with the clear intention of advertising that they are "rednecks" , and Christian religious conservatives, as well as political "conservatives". Definition: bigots!!!!!

johnson1010 · Thu Aug 12, 2010 8:39 am

That was the intent behind my original post.

Proud rednecks who consider themselves to be conservatives, thus flag wavers, and "good christians" by and large, foolishly fly the rebel flag and think it is consistant with patriotism.

Really, it is just advertising that they have not put a second into thinking about anything they do.

retiredreader · Thu Aug 12, 2010 9:11 am

I'm betting that most of the Confederate flag wavers are rushing out to join a local "Tea Party", while the rest of the Western world looks on and has a laugh at their expense. :lol:

Penelope · Thu Aug 12, 2010 12:07 pm


	Quote: retired reader wrote: I'm betting that most of the Confederate flag wavers are rushing out to join a local "Tea Party", while the rest of the Western world looks on and has a laugh at their expense.

Well, we are not laughing, over the pond here. You have problems with Fundamentalist Christians. We in the UK are having problems with fundamentalist Muslims. I say, let us veto 'fundamentalist' anything. Be it, Religion, Politics, or, dare I say it? Patriotism?

How do we learn to think - carefully, taking note of the scientific facts, but also, wonder about what might be -

I can see that we are so fortunate to live in Western Society, where people matter. In Pakistan, the floods are decimating the population, the regime, it seems, is corrupt. They haven't even eradicated polio there, because they don't have electricity for refridgerating the vaccine.

Yet these people (immigrants) are destroying what my forefathers were fighting to establish. I am angry. But, God help me, I don't want to be racist.....the people are just people, like us.....it is the regime, which is corrupt....not the people themselves. It is hard to remember this, in the case of Iraq, Pakistan, the whole of Africa. It is hard to remember that they 'use' religion to control people. It is hard to live without religion.....without imagining what it just 'might be'.

retiredreader · Thu Aug 12, 2010 12:57 pm

Penelope: I think we probably agree on a lot of things. I am not religious, so I have issues with organized religion in general. That being said, the fundamentalists in so many religions really scare me. In parts of the States, where Christian fundamentalist religion and Republican politics have combined, the lack of logic and humanity results in such absurd beliefs as to be "laughable" in a sad way. These Americans have had all the opportunities to live in a country where people matter, and have had freedom of religion and educational choices. But all they care about is telling other people how to live. Plus, instead of being informed, they get ll their information from the biased "paid for" ads on tv. Look at the absurd fiasco connected to trying to get a Health Care Law in place. All the rest of us in the western world can do is laugh in frustration: otherwise we'd cry.

stahrwe · Thu Aug 12, 2010 1:07 pm


	retiredreader wrote: I'm betting that most of the Confederate flag wavers are rushing out to join a local "Tea Party", while the rest of the Western world looks on and has a laugh at their expense.

You might be surprised to learn that the purpose of the Tea Party movement is to reduce the size of government, lower taxes and act in a fiscally responsible manner so that our children and grandchildren are not crushed by a debt that they cannot repay (Greece for example). We also have the federal government increasing the economic burden on states who have made painful cuts to their budgets to bail out states who have not. We have a federal government who has been borrowing the tax money we have been paying to fund social security and replacing it with IOU's and now, when social security will begin paying out more than it takes in, we have such large deficits that the taxpayers are gong to have to pay that money in again or risk the system going broke. It is interesting to see the perspective of people in other countries but the fact is that the most common flag seen at Tea Party rallys is one denoting a segmented snake with the words, "Don't tread on me" (an old rallying cry from the original Tea Party days which was also not about race but about an unfair and abusive government -sorry Penelope- we love the Brits today). And one more thing, unless the US gets its fiscal act together, the next time we won't be in a position to save the world's bacon. Whose going to stand up for Georgia the next time Russia gets itchy, or Chetchnya? Or put Iran down? or North Korea? of China? Is Canada? or Britian? or France? Who else is there?

If we cut our base in Japan and pulled out of Western Europe we would significantly cut our deficit.

And why is it that none of the Judges on America's Got Talent this season are Americans?

Howie Mandel is Canadian
Peers Morgan is Irish
Sharon Osborne is British.

stahrwe · Thu Aug 12, 2010 1:10 pm

Penelope wrote:


	Quote: retired reader wrote: I'm betting that most of the Confederate flag wavers are rushing out to join a local "Tea Party", while the rest of the Western world looks on and has a laugh at their expense.

Well, we are not laughing, over the pond here. You have problems with Fundamentalist Christians. We in the UK are having problems with fundamentalist Muslims. I say, let us veto 'fundamentalist' anything. Be it, Religion, Politics, or, dare I say it? Patriotism?

How do we learn to think - carefully, taking note of the scientific facts, but also, wonder about what might be -

I can see that we are so fortunate to live in Western Society, where people matter. In Pakistan, the floods are decimating the population, the regime, it seems, is corrupt. They haven't even eradicated polio there, because they don't have electricity for refridgerating the vaccine.

Yet these people (immigrants) are destroying what my forefathers were fighting to establish. I am angry. But, God help me, I don't want to be racist.....the people are just people, like us.....it is the regime, which is corrupt....not the people themselves. It is hard to remember this, in the case of Iraq, Pakistan, the whole of Africa. It is hard to remember that they 'use' religion to control people. It is hard to live without religion.....without imagining what it just 'might be'.

nice to see you back. I haven't had time to read your blog yet but I hope you enjoyed your holiday (as you brits say) We call them vacations.

Forum rules

The Rebel Flag and Patriotism Tweet This Topic

Who is online

Chat Room Always Open!