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The really BIG miracles of Jesus
I'm talking here specifiacally of the instances where he is said to have fed congregations of 4000 and 5000.
I was asked this question by a christian I was talking with and the only reply I had for him was "Good question, I'll get back to you. Your argument seems a reasonable one to me." Well here is the argument: Why weren't there accusations against the accuracy of these accounts that happened, supposedly, in front of so many people? IOW if I was to claim I fed 5000 people out of basically thin air it could be easily disproven. Why hasn't this happened with the Biblical accounts?
1) I'm not sure that there weren't contemporary attacks on the accuracy of the mass feedings. Does anyone here have any info regarding this?
2) I'm not sure how well-known the claims were or even when they actually originated. If they didn't originate until years after his death then obviously a valid suspicion of stated events is in order. If the claims were conteporary with the supposed events then how widespread was the message initially? IOW does it perhaps make sense for their to be no attacks on them even if the claims were presented in a timely manner?
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Re: The really BIG miracles of Jesus
What is the point in refuting arguments as thin as that, really?
Jesus could not possibly have fed 5000 people from just a little bit of food, so it didnt happen. Flat out. Just because something is written down somewhere does not mean it needs to be looked at and discussed seriously.
If Jesus the oily had really gathered crowds of 4 to 5000 people there is no doubt in my mind, whatsoever that he would have been mentioned perfusely in contemporary historical documents. Not just a vague mention of something that you could STRETCH to mean jesus, but a definite entry in history that did not originate from the document which invented him.
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Nowhere in the Bible does it state that the truth would be revealed through logic and evidence. -James Williamson MD
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Re: The really BIG miracles of Jesus
johnson1010 wrote:
What is the point in refuting arguments as thin as that, really?
Jesus could not possibly have fed 5000 people from just a little bit of food, so it didnt happen. Flat out. Just because something is written down somewhere does not mean it needs to be looked at and discussed seriously.
If Jesus the oily had really gathered crowds of 4 to 5000 people there is no doubt in my mind, whatsoever that he would have been mentioned perfusely in contemporary historical documents. Not just a vague mention of something that you could STRETCH to mean jesus, but a definite entry in history that did not originate from the document which invented him.
You neglect a few points.
1) Nothing in the account indicates that the crowd knew what was going on.& 2) There was no nightly news in that era.
_________________ “I think one of [James Hoffmeier’s] most important points is that we have unrealistic expectations for what archaeology can offer us as far as ‘proving’ Exodus: ‘After all, what evidence, short of an inscription in a Proto-Canaanite script stating “bricks made by Hebrew slaves” would be considered proof that the Israelites were in Egypt. Archaeology’s ability … is quite limited.’” Jeff Lambert, Editorial Associate, Biblical Archaeological Review. via email January 26, 2010 8:20:58 AM. [email receipiant redacted for privacy reasons. See Thread-The Bible's Buried Secrets for full text.]
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Re: The really BIG miracles of Jesus
And you neglect all of history if you are saying something this ridiculous actually took place. The only document you are using substantiate that belief is the same document which provided you with the original story in the first place. Remember how we mentioned circularity? Can't use the document that is under suspicion as the proof it is above said suspicion?
_________________ Have you tried that? Looking for answers? Or have you been content to be terrified of a thing you know nothing about?
Nowhere in the Bible does it state that the truth would be revealed through logic and evidence. -James Williamson MD
Science flies you to the moon. Religion flies you into buildings.
In the absence of God, I found Man. -Guillermo Del Torro
If you think education is expensive, try ignorance. -Derek Bok
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Re: The really BIG miracles of Jesus
Kevin wrote:
I'm talking here specifiacally of the instances where he is said to have fed congregations of 4000 and 5000.
I was asked this question by a christian I was talking with and the only reply I had for him was "Good question, I'll get back to you. Your argument seems a reasonable one to me." Well here is the argument: Why weren't there accusations against the accuracy of these accounts that happened, supposedly, in front of so many people? IOW if I was to claim I fed 5000 people out of basically thin air it could be easily disproven. Why hasn't this happened with the Biblical accounts?
1) I'm not sure that there weren't contemporary attacks on the accuracy of the mass feedings. Does anyone here have any info regarding this?
2) I'm not sure how well-known the claims were or even when they actually originated. If they didn't originate until years after his death then obviously a valid suspicion of stated events is in order. If the claims were conteporary with the supposed events then how widespread was the message initially? IOW does it perhaps make sense for their to be no attacks on them even if the claims were presented in a timely manner?
This miracle appears six times in the Gospels, so is rather central to Christianity. The 5000and 4000 are the visible stars, the two fishes are the sun and moon, the five loaves are the five visible planets. Production of abundance from nothing signifies the cosmic movement of the equinoxes at the time of Christ into the signs of Virgo and Pisces, symbolised by bread and fish. Spica, the main star of Virgo, symbolises an ear of wheat. The September equinox point moved past Spica at the time of Christ. The first fish of Pisces is a line of stars across the zodiac that the March equinox point reached at the time of Christ.
Last edited by Robert Tulip on Wed Aug 18, 2010 8:47 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: The really BIG miracles of Jesus
johnson1010 wrote:
What is the point in refuting arguments as thin as that, really?
Because I find it to be a good one. I suppose when it gets down to it that's the point. It's true that the "fact" of it occurring stretches credulity, when looked at from a purely secular viewpoint, but that's besides the point of whether or not there are contemporary accounts in support of or in denial of the stated event(s). Besides, when looked at from a POV of someone who does believe there is a Creator it actually makes sense that this being could do wonders with just a bit of food.
Quote:
Jesus could not possibly have fed 5000 people from just a little bit of food, so it didnt happen. Flat out. Just because something is written down somewhere does not mean it needs to be looked at and discussed seriously.
OK so how about this one: God could not have created the world from out of nothing, so it didn't happen. Flat out. Do you believe this is also an accurate statement?
Quote:
If Jesus the oily had really gathered crowds of 4 to 5000 people there is no doubt in my mind, whatsoever that he would have been mentioned perfusely in contemporary historical documents. Not just a vague mention of something that you could STRETCH to mean jesus, but a definite entry in history that did not originate from the document which invented him.
hrm... the oily? Anyway, didn't Josephus mention Jesus?
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Re: The really BIG miracles of Jesus
Quote:
IOW if I was to claim I fed 5000 people out of basically thin air it could be easily disproven. Why hasn't this happened with the Biblical accounts?
It's a good display of gullibility to think that nature would veer from it's course, rather than that one man would tell a lie!
The onus of proof lies on the person making the extraordinary claim.
This is one of the distinctions philosophers of science realized over a century ago between science and pseudoscience. Man is clever in his deceit. There are infinite possible concepts or hypotheses which aren't able to be falsified. Russel's teapot, invisible dragons in garages, alien dreams, Matrix scenarios, etc. Such claims are useless. To see in depth why that's the case, read this book: Understanding Philosophy of Science.
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Re: The really BIG miracles of Jesus
stahrwe wrote:
johnson1010 wrote:
What is the point in refuting arguments as thin as that, really?
Jesus could not possibly have fed 5000 people from just a little bit of food, so it didnt happen. Flat out. Just because something is written down somewhere does not mean it needs to be looked at and discussed seriously.
If Jesus the oily had really gathered crowds of 4 to 5000 people there is no doubt in my mind, whatsoever that he would have been mentioned perfusely in contemporary historical documents. Not just a vague mention of something that you could STRETCH to mean jesus, but a definite entry in history that did not originate from the document which invented him.
You neglect a few points.
1) Nothing in the account indicates that the crowd knew what was going on.& 2) There was no nightly news in that era.
And what difference would it have made to the crowd? People watch David Copperfield and do not know whats going on? And what does a nightly news cast have to do with it? Your response to his post indicates a "Duh! I don't know attitude!"
Quote:
If Jesus the oily had really gathered crowds of 4 to 5000 people there is no doubt in my mind, whatsoever that he would have been mentioned perfusely in contemporary historical documents.
Johnson is right in the above quote. If stick boy did all the things the bible claims he did then why in the hell is he not plastered all over written contemporary history of his time? Why? Cause all this never happened thats why. And the only thing you have to back it up is written words in a book that amounts to nothing more than second hand hearsay! Which cannot even be verified through historical records of the time he lived. Any miracles he performed were nothing more than the result of wild imaginations by those who wrote the events...
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Re: The really BIG miracles of Jesus
Perhaps the feeding of the five thousand started life as a parable, a bit like the wheat and weeds, and morphed into a miracle because people liked it so much. The explanation of the parable is as per my last post. But this cosmic explanation is not acceptable to the anti-naturalism of orthodox theology, so was expunged from the record, leaving only the miraculous trace...
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Re: The really BIG miracles of Jesus
Robert Tulip wrote:
Perhaps the feeding of the five thousand started life as a parable, a bit like the wheat and weeds, and morphed into a miracle because people liked it so much. The explanation of the parable is as per my last post. But this cosmic explanation is not acceptable to the anti-naturalism of orthodox theology, so was expunged from the record, leaving only the miraculous trace...
stahwre has protested that his ideas get blasted while others of us get a pass for quirky ideas. So I feel that I should at least say that the astrotheological thesis doesn't pass muster for me. I don't have a big argument to mount against it, any more than I have one for stahrwe's religious beliefs. On my meter of plausibility, it doesn't register. Since this is not the topic at hand, that's all I'll say about it now.
Traditional interpretations of these passages are entirely cryptic, reliant on a supernatural messianic miracle. The question I have asked is if there could be some hidden meaning encoded in this central main miracle of the story of Jesus. An abundance of obvious clues point to this story of the loaves and fishes as a parable of the cosmic wheel of the Great Year. There is no 'free pass' required to explore the possible scientific status of this interpretation. I would be happy to analyse the texts line by line to test this claim.
Last edited by Robert Tulip on Sun Aug 15, 2010 10:13 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: The really BIG miracles of Jesus
Interbane wrote:
Kevin:
Quote:
hrm... the oily? Anyway, didn't Josephus mention Jesus?
No, he didn't.
There is actually a good deal of deate about this. Even the website you furnish as proof of "No" says this: In addition to acknowledging the spuriousness of the Josephus passage, many authorities quoted here agreed with the obvious: Church historian Eusebius was the forger of the entire Testimonium Flavianium.
Quote:
You neglect the fact that these claims have no evidence supporting them. They can be dismissed. This is not a case of 'absence of evidence is evidence of absence', since the implication that these events took place is that the laws of nature must be changed to accommodate them. Which means, the evidence against these claims are the findings of modern science, namely that the laws of nature do not allow for such magical events to happen.
It seems to me you're saying that God cannot exist since the laws of nature would have to be changed in order to accomodate for his presence. And yet, everyone mostly could agree that this is the essense of the God-concept. So I think you're saying something everyone already knows, and agrees on, and calling it proof against the existence of God.
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Re: The really BIG miracles of Jesus
Had the forged passage been in the works of Josephus which they knew people such as Justin Martyr, Tertullian, Origen and Clement of Alexandria would have thrown it at their Jewish opponents. Forged passage did not exist. Origen who knew Josephus well expressed that he had not acknowledge Christ.
Eusebius: Adovcated fraud in the interest of faith. Had been known to tamper with Josephus works and many other writers worls as well. He uses this passage in Evangelical Demonstration Book (3) page 124: "Certainly the attestions I have already produced concerning our saviour may be sufficent. However, it may not be amiss, if, over and above, we make use of Josephus the Jew for a further witness."
Passage interrupts the narrative. Has nothing to do with what precedes or follows it. Position of the text clearly shows that the text has been separated by a later hand to make room for it.
Eusebius is the basis for all Christianity lies he even admits it....
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