Online reading group and book discussion forum
  HOME FORUMS BLOGS BOOKS LINKS DONATE ADVERTISE CONTACT  
View unanswered posts | View active topics It is currently Fri May 25, 2012 11:00 am




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 159 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1 ... 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11  Next
The really BIG miracles of Jesus 
Author Message
Years of membershipYears of membership
Masters


Joined: Apr 2010
Posts: 468
Images: 0
Highscores: 3
Thanks: 25
Thanked: 29 times in 28 posts
Gender: Male
Country: United States (us)

Post Re: The really BIG miracles of Jesus
Robert Tulip wrote:
Quote:
Your comment about the Baha'i faith is a typical rude and baseless ad hominem insult,


That was the whole point of my post Robert. Christians and Christianity see themselves as the only right religion in the world! Too bad their so called saviour never even heard the word Christian! Most likely as well he did not! Their other saviour Paul invented the word.



Thu Aug 26, 2010 7:32 pm
Profile Personal album
User avatar
Years of membershipYears of membership
Banned

Banned
Diamond Contributor

Joined: Aug 2009
Posts: 4141
Location: Florida
Thanks: 121
Thanked: 143 times in 133 posts
Gender: Male

Post Re: The really BIG miracles of Jesus
Star Burst wrote:
stahrwe wrote:
Quote:
And we should care what Baha'i says because ...?


We could ask the same thing about your Christianity could we not? Thats what gripes me about it Christianity thinks its the only right religion in the world! Its the biggest crook, creep and pimp show in the world!!!!!!!!


Robert Tulip was presenting Baha'i's interpretation of the jewels on the breastplate of the high priest of the Jews. My question was intended to suggest that what Baha'i teaches about a Jewish object is irrelevant. You may as well ask what Pee Wee Herman says about it. Baha'i has no standing. Robert was citing all of these opinions about the breastplate by extraneous sources to justify his position but ignored the plain wording of the Bible as to what was on each stone. It is not a matter of conceit on my part or the part of Christianity, it is a matter of sticking to the facts.


_________________
“I think one of [James Hoffmeier’s] most important points is that we have unrealistic expectations for what archaeology can offer us as far as ‘proving’ Exodus: ‘After all, what evidence, short of an inscription in a Proto-Canaanite script stating “bricks made by Hebrew slaves” would be considered proof that the Israelites were in Egypt. Archaeology’s ability … is quite limited.’” Jeff Lambert, Editorial Associate, Biblical Archaeological Review. via email January 26, 2010 8:20:58 AM. [email receipiant redacted for privacy reasons. See Thread-The Bible's Buried Secrets for full text.]


Fri Aug 27, 2010 7:57 am
Profile Email
User avatar
Years of membershipYears of membership
Banned

Banned
Diamond Contributor

Joined: Aug 2009
Posts: 4141
Location: Florida
Thanks: 121
Thanked: 143 times in 133 posts
Gender: Male

Post Re: The really BIG miracles of Jesus
Robert Tulip wrote:
stahrwe wrote:
No, what it showed is a somewhat defective memory. I went back and checke the discussion in Revelation and you are right, You didn't say that Aquila was part of the Zodiac, what you did was try to bend the constellations so that somehow Aquila was a surrogate for Scorpio so you could maintain your imaginary celestial cross that had something to do with two rivers and the tree of life. It didn't make any sense then and it doesn't now. And we should care what Baha'i says because ...? This is another stretch. Just go by what the Bible says. Why is that so hard? Instead you are invoking Baha'i, Philo, Josephus, Robert Tulip, ... let it be. They are the names of the tribes of Israel, that's it. I don't see any point in including the above [Exodus description of the twelve jewels]. The above represent speculation and are not based on the Bible. In the case of Thomas Aquinas he doesn't even represent that it is a majority opinion. As for the Jewish Encyclopedia, I checked out what it said and have reproduce it below. I also included the citation/url so BT readers can validate what I am reporting. I don't find you language you published in the article I read. Perhaps I missed it. Once again we see a desire to cite a specific, narrow portion of one book of the Bible. Why not read and discuss the whole book so the errors don't persist?


Stahrwe, you may not care about finding a reading of the Bible that makes sense, but I do. How ironic that fundamentalists clutch at straws to pretend that fraudulent references inserted in the books of Josephus provide proof of the existence of Jesus, but now that I answer your question by documenting the ancient linkage between the Biblical twelve jewels and the zodiac in the writings of Josephus, you suddenly question his authority. I don't think Eusebius was likely to have inserted the astrology into Josephus like he inserted the pious fraud about Jesus. The stars are there from the start, but these references are distasteful to your dogma, just as they were distasteful to ancient dogmatic censors of the Bible.


My comment about Josephus was intended to be a criticism of the selective use of Josephus by some people. He is accurate when it suits your purposes and fradulent when he doesn't.

As for Eusebius, that it the LIE that will not DIE. It is part of Urban Legend land, perpetuated by those trying to impune Christianity. You assertion of Eusebius and the pious fraud is itself a fraud. You would know that if you bothered to expend a fraction of energy to check your souces which you do to defend Astrotheology. I have posted in another post in this thread, a Wall of Text. But you need to read it. It will demonstrate that the people you trust have quoted Eusebius our ot context for their own purposes. Don't take my word for it. Do your own research if you don't believe what I have posted. Or better yet, find the Eusebius reference and read the whole chapter!

robert tulip wrote:
Your comment about the Baha'i faith is a typical rude and baseless ad hominem insult, implying that the content of their ideas is defective only because of who they are. As usual, you play the man rather than the ball in order to divert attention from substantive comment, namely the corroboration of the scientific explanation of the twelve jewels that I have provided. You do not have to endorse or even consider the Baha'i faith to assess the content of the quote that you attack solely because of its source.


How is asking why we should care what Baha'i says about the breastplate; rude, baseless or an ad hominum insult? It is an objective question for which you have no answer. You also have not established a scientific link. Ask Interbane!

My description of the river of life as the Milky Way galaxy and the tree of life as the zodiac is an economical and elegant reading of the Biblical text. As Jesus said to his disciples who could not comprehend the cosmic code in the loaves and fishes, "How is it that you do not understand?"[/quote]

There is no cosmic code! You have presented a pretty poetical interpretation. One of the pinciples of interpreting the Bible is that when the plain text makes sense, no other interpretation is necessary.


_________________
“I think one of [James Hoffmeier’s] most important points is that we have unrealistic expectations for what archaeology can offer us as far as ‘proving’ Exodus: ‘After all, what evidence, short of an inscription in a Proto-Canaanite script stating “bricks made by Hebrew slaves” would be considered proof that the Israelites were in Egypt. Archaeology’s ability … is quite limited.’” Jeff Lambert, Editorial Associate, Biblical Archaeological Review. via email January 26, 2010 8:20:58 AM. [email receipiant redacted for privacy reasons. See Thread-The Bible's Buried Secrets for full text.]


Fri Aug 27, 2010 8:56 am
Profile Email
User avatar
Years of membershipYears of membership
Banned

Banned
Diamond Contributor

Joined: Aug 2009
Posts: 4141
Location: Florida
Thanks: 121
Thanked: 143 times in 133 posts
Gender: Male

Post Re: The really BIG miracles of Jesus
Quote:
Eusebius the Liar?
Some very odd statements are in circulation about Eusebius Pampilus the Historian. Recently I had the opportunity to check the statements fairly easily, and the results are interesting.

1. "I have repeated whatever may rebound to the glory, and suppressed all that could tend to the disgrace of our religion"
2. "It will sometimes be necessary to use falsehood for the benefit of those who need such a mode of treatment."

[NOTE: Lightfoot's comment on this issue; and various translations of Eusebius Praeparatio Evangelica]
1. 'Rebounding to the glory of religion'
The original allegation
Here's the relevant extract from a recent post:

Perhaps, but let me quote Eusebius, the Bishop who 'uncovered' the Flavianum Testamonium:

"I have repeated whatever may rebound to the glory, and suppressed
all that could tend to the disgrace of our religion" (Chp. 31, Book
: 12 of Prae Paratio Evangelica).

This seems a very strange thing for a historian of any sort to say. My first thought was to look for anything about it in the HE, because I didn't have the post in front of me and hadn't recalled that it was not a quote from that work. But it wasn't labour lost.

The introduction to Eusebius' Historia Ecclesiastica

From the introduction to the 1965 Williamson edition of HE in Penguin Classics, p.27:
"He indirectly confesses that he has related whatever might redound to the glory, and has suppressed all that could tend to the disgrace, of religion"

Williamson goes on to say:

"Gibbon's notorious sneer ... was effectively disposed of by Lightfoot, who fully vindicated Eusebius' honour as a narrator 'against this unjust charge'."

Eusebius also lays down his method in Book I, chapter 1, where he modestly confesses that he knows of no-one who has written anything like this work before, so he would appreciate the reader's indulgence while he evolves his methodology. The 'quote' is not in the section in which he describes how he intends to proceed.

This is all very suspicious. The wording of the 'quote' is identical (apart from some carelessness) to what Williamson calls a sneer of Gibbon's. But the obvious thing to do is to look at the work 'quoted' and see if it contains the alleged quote. This I did.

The passage from De praeparatione evangelica According to Quasten's Patrology, there is only the one English translation, done as part of a Greek edition. (I hope people will forgive me if I don't try to display the Greek on this page - I'm not sure how to do Greek characters reliably!) So here is the chapter from that edition. I've tried to reproduce the layout and line breaks:

Gifford, E.H., Eusebii Pamphili : Evangelicae Praeparationis, Vol III, Oxford, 1903, p. 657, sections p.607d-608a. The text is Book XII, chapter XXXI:

'But even if the case were not such as our argument has now proved it to be, if a lawgiver, who is to be of ever so little use, could have ventured to tell any falsehood at all to the young for their good, is there any falsehood that he could have told more beneficial than this, and better able to make them all do everything that is just, not by compulsion but willingly?

'Truth, O Stranger, is a noble and an enduring thing; it seems, however, not easy to persuade men of it.'
d PLATO

Now you may find in the Hebrew Scriptures also thousands of such passages concerning God as though He were jealous, or sleeping, or angry, or subject to any other human passions, which passages are adopted for the benefit of those who need this mode of instruction.
p. 608

As you can see, the 'quotation' appears nowhere in the work, which is cast in the form of a discussion quoting passages from the philosophers and discussing their relationship with the Hebrew scriptures (The quote from Plato is from the Laws II, 663 d 6 - e 4). History, as such, is not under discussion in the work at all. In this passage, a piece of Plato is discussed, and the way in which the Hebrew scriptures acknowledge the inability of most men to reason (and how, unlike the philosophers, they don't exclude that class of men) and embody it as part of their message is outlined.

Clearly the reference we started with is quite wrong.
So where does that leave us? Well, it leaves us with Gibbon. What did he actually say, and did he reference it?

Gibbon
I looked at a reprint of Gibbon, and I've copied out enough to make sense.
Gibbon, Edward, The Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire, Encyclopedia Britannica reprint, 1990, ISBN 0-85229-531-6. Volume I, chapter 16, p.232.

In this general view of the persecution which was first authorised by the edicts of Diocletian, I have purposely refrained from describing the particular sufferings and deaths of the Christian martyrs. It would have been an easy task. from the history of Eusebius, from the declamations of Lactantius, to collect a long series of horrid and disgusting pictures ...[snip] But I cannot determine what I ought to transcribe, till I am satisfied how much I ought to believe. The gravest of the ecclesiastical historians, Eusebius himself, indirectly confesses that he has related whatever might redound to the glory, and that he has suppressed all that could tend to the disgrace, of religion.178 Such an acknowledgement will naturally excite a suspicion that a writer who has so openly violated one of the fundamental laws of history has not paid a very strict regard to the observance of the other; and the suspicion will derive additional credit from the character of Eusebius, which was less tinctured with credulity, and more practised in the arts of courts, than that of almost any of his contemporaries. [etc].
Note 178 on p.736:

178. Such is the fair deduction from two remarkable passages in Eusebius, l. viii. c. 2, and de Martyr. Palestin. c. 12. The prudence of the historian has exposed his own character to censure and suspicion. It was well known that he himself had been thrown into prison; and it was suggested that he had purchased his deliverance by some dishonorable compliance. The reproach was urged in his lifetime, and even in his presence, at the council of Tyre. See Tillemont, Memoires Ecclesiastiques, tom. viii. part i. p. 67

Well, that gives us the statement from Gibbon and two references for it. So let's look at those two references. The Ante-Nicene Fathers should supply our needs adequately.
Eusebius HE Book VIII, chapter 2.
Here is the Ante-Nicene Fathers text, from http://www.ccel.org/fathers2:

Chapter II. The Destruction of the Churches.
1 All these things were fulfilled in us, when we saw with our own eyes the houses of prayer thrown down to the very foundations, and the Divine and Sacred Scriptures committed to the flames in the midst of the market-places, and the shepherds of the churches basely hidden here and there, and some of them captured ignominiously, and mocked by their enemies. When also, according to another prophetic word, "Contempt was poured out upon rulers, and he caused them to wander in an untrodden and pathless way."

2 But it is not our place to describe the sad misfortunes which finally came upon them, as we do not think it proper, moreover, to record their divisions and unnatural conduct to each other before the persecution. Wherefore we have decided to relate nothing concerning them except the things in which we can vindicate the Divine judgment.

3 Hence we shall not mention those who were shaken by the persecution, nor those who in everything pertaining to salvation were shipwrecked, and by their own will were sunk in the depths of the flood. But we shall introduce into this history in general only those events which may be usefull first to ourselves and afterwards to posterity. Let us therefore proceed to describe briefly the sacred conflicts of the witnesses of the Divine Word.

4 It was in the nineteenth year of the reign of Diocletian, in the month Dystrus, called March by the Romans, when the feast of the Saviour's passion was near at hand, that royal edicts were published everywhere, commanding that the churches be leveled to the ground and the Scriptures be destroyed by fire, and ordering that those who held places of honor be degraded, and that the household servants, if they persisted in the profession of Christianity, be deprived of freedom.

5 Such was the first edict against us. But not long after, other decrees were issued, commanding that all the rulers of the churches in every place be first thrown into prison, and afterwards by every artifice be compelled to sacrifices.

Chapter III. The Nature of the Conflicts Endured in the Persecution.
1 Then truly a great many rulers of the churches eagerly endured terrible sufferings, and furnished examples of noble conflicts. But a multitude of others, benumbed in spirit by fear, were easily weakened at the first onset. Of the rest each one endured different forms of torture. [etc]

I think we can see that v.2 is the bit that Gibbon has used. But does it mean what Gibbon says? Or is Eusebius, faced with a huge amount of material for contemporary events, simply honestly stating that from here on he won't cover everything, but only those which are in some way useful to know about, whether positive, or negative but with a useful moral, and for the rest stick to general statements? It seems as if that the latter is more consistent with the context, although one could make out some sort of case that Gibbon is misrepresenting something that is really there in Eusebius. But is the idea that Gibbon is making in Eusebius' mind at all? Surely he's thinking about writing something useful to his public?

Our 'quote' isn't here. It would be useful to see which words in Eusebius were represented by which words in Gibbon, but there does not seem to be a 1:1 relation. The closest statement to 'suppressing material to the disgrace of religion' is when he says is that it isn't his place to pillory some people (who of course, are living at the time he writes). The closest statement to 'he is relating only what redounds to the glory of religion' is when he says he will relate nothing about the corrupt except that which shows they deserved it ('vindicates the divine judgement').

The Martyrs of Palestine
This is an appendix to Book VIII of the HE, and is not a history but a martyrology - a book intended for devotional use. Here's the ANF text:

Chapter XII.
1. I Think it best to pass by all the other events which occurred in the meantime: such as those which happened to the bishops of the churches, when instead of shepherds of the rational flocks of Christ, over which they presided in an unlawful manner, the divine judgment, considering them worthy of such a charge, made them keepers of camels, an irrational beast and very crooked in the structure of its body, or condemned them to have the care of the imperial horses;-and I pass by also the insults and disgraces and tortures they endured from the imperial overseers and rulers on account of the sacred vessels and treasures of the Church; and besides these the lust of power on the part of many, the disorderly and unlawful ordinations, and the schisms among the confessors themselves; also the novelties which were zealously devised against the remnants of the Church by the new and factious members, who added innovation after innovation and forced them in unsparingly among the calamities of the persecution, heaping misfortune upon misfortune. I judge it more suitable to shun and avoid the account of these things, as I said at the beginning. But such things as are sober and praiseworthy, according to the sacred word,-"and if there be any virtue and praise," - I consider it most proper to tell and to record, and to present to believing hearers in the history of the admirable martyrs. And after this I think it best to crown the entire work with an account of the peace which has appeared unto us from heaven.

There is a statement of omission here (rather than suppression). But Eusebius does not conceal that some of those persecuted behaved badly. The book is not a history of the persecution, but the deeds of the martyrs, as the title of the book indicates. So other than indicating the way that some fell short, he concentrates on his subject.
This too does not contain our 'quote'. There does not seem to be a correlation here either with Gibbon's statement.

CONCLUSION
The 'quotation' seems to be a fraud, although it is not necessary to suppose deliberate dishonesty at any stage - merely a willingness to take a statement in the worst way or to believe the worst.

How did the statement get manufactured? We cannot know all the steps, but we can guess easily enough.

As we have seen, Gibbon's statements do not tie up much with what Eusebius wrote. It is fair to say that Gibbon gave the facts the worst interpretation they could bear. The master of English prose also phrased his remarks in such a way that many people would take them as meaning more than he said - and he placed no barrier to that interpretation. And so it duly occurred.

Some person unknowing excerpted Gibbon into some sort of anthology of anti-Christian 'evidence'. Someone else (who probably honestly didn't notice Gibbon's little qualification) then altered the indirect statement to direct statement, producing our 'quote'. How the reference to the Praeparatio became attached to it is hard to say, except that most people have access to the text of the HE and MP, and no-one to the Praeparatio. Perhaps some quote or other from the Praeparatio also appeared in our anthology and crossed over? (But see below...)

Written 26th April, 2000, Updated 9th June, 2000.

2. 'Necessary to use Falsehood'
Some six months after I wrote the above, a fresh quotation reached me.
The Allegation
In article <20001216022353.11957.00001469@ng-fm1.aol.com
emaxelx@aol.compost (R.A. Beschizza) wrote:

"It will sometimes be necessary to use falsehood for the benefit of those who need such a mode of treatment."
> -- Eusebius of Nicomedia , Constantine's overseer of church doctrine and history
[The poster did not, of course, mean Eusebius of Nicomedia; Eusebius of Caesarea is intended, as is clear from other posters].

The allegation seems to be that this is a quotation from Eusebius' works, and that he is justifying forgery and falsehood 'for the benefit of others'.

It seemed obvious to look in Gibbon again, as a first resort and this showed where the allegation came from. Here are Gibbon's remarks, this time from his Vindication, copied from an edition on the net:
Gibbon's version of the allegation

1. Dr. Chelsum is at a loss how to reconcile, - I beg pardon for weakening the force of his dogmatic style; he declares that, "It is plainly impossible to reconcile the express words of the charge exhibited, with any part of either of the passages appealed to in support of it." (105) If he means, as I think he must, that the express words of my text cannot be found in that of Eusebius, I congratulate the importance of the discovery. But was it possible? Could it be my design to quote the words of Eusebius, when I reduced into one sentence the spirit and substance of two diffuse arid distinct passages? If I have given the true sense and meaning of the Ecclesiastical Historian, I have discharged the duties of a fair Interpreter; nor shall I refuse to rest the proof of my fidelity on the translation of those two passages of Eusebius, which Dr. Chelsum produces in his favour. (106)

"But it is not our part to describe the sad calamities which at last befel them (the Christians), since it does not agree with our plan to relate their dissentions and wickedness before the persecution; on which account we have determined to relate nothing more concerning them than may serve to justify the Divine Judgment. We therefore have not been induced to make mention either of those who were tempted in the persecution, or of those who made utter shipwreck of their salvation, and who were sunk of their own accord in the depths of the storm; but shall only add those things to our General History, which may in the first place be profitable to ourselves, and afterwards to posterity"

In the other passage, Eusebius, after mentioning the dissentions of the Confessors among themselves, again declares that it is his intention to pass over all these things.
"Whatsoever things, (continues the Historian, in the words of the Apostle, who was recommending the practice of virtue) whatsoever things are honest, whatsoever things are of good report, if there be any virtue, and if there be any praise; these things Eusebius thinks most suitable to a History of Martyrs;"

of wonderful Martyrs, as the splendid epithet which Dr. Chelsum had not thought proper to translate. I should betray a very mean opinion of the judgment and candour of my readers, if I added a single reflection on the clear and obvious tendency of the two passages of the Ecclesiastical Historian. I shall only observe, that the Bishop of Caesarea seems to have claimed a privilege of a still more dangerous and extensive nature. In one of the most learned and elaborate works that antiquity has left us, the Thirty-second Chapter of the Twelfth Book of his Evangelical Preparation bears for its title this scandalous Proposition,

"How it may be lawful and fitting to use falsehood as a medicine, and for the benefit of those who want to be deceived." "**Ancient Greek**" (P 356, Edit. Graec. Rob. Stephani, Paris 1544.) In this chapter he alleges a passage of Plato, which approves the occasional practice of pious and salutary frauds; nor is Eusebius ashamed to justify the sentiments of the Athenian philosopher by the example of the sacred writers of the Old Testament.
(Paragraphing is mine, to make it easier to read).

[Since we have seen in the first section that Gibbon's words have been misunderstood, it's interesting to see this comment by Gibbon himself. It would seem that the tendency of Gibbon's remarks discussed earlier to mislead was raised at the time, by this Dr. Chelsum. We have already seen that the remarks he made in Decline and Fall are indeed commonly taken as a direct quotation from Eusebius, which they are not. Gibbon's response is to patronisingly deride 'the importance of this discovery'.]

These remarks by Gibbon would appear to be a source for the allegation we are discussing, even if Gibbon's words are rather more negative even than we started with. Neverthless it gives us a source reference, with which to look up the text; and we have already looked at the Praeparatio Evangelica.

The chapter headings
The words quoted come from the chapter heading, rather than the text. In order to discuss these, we will need to look at a critical edition of the Greek text, since the relevant information is not present in English translation.

The standard modern critical text is Karl MRAS, Eusebius Werke. Achter Band. Die Praeparatio Evangelica, Griechischen Christlichen Schriftsteller 43 (1954, 1956), in two volumes. This text is the basis of the new text with French translation in J. SIRINELLI and Édouard des PLACES, Eusèbé de Césarée: La préparation évangélique, livres XII-XIII: Introduction, Texte Grec, Traduction et Annotation. Sources Chrétiennes 307 (1983). pp.136-7 contain Book 12 chapter 31; pp.138-9 chapter 32.

Here is the Greek for chapter 31 from SIRINELLI (using the SPIonic font):
la&. OTI DEHSEI POTE TWI YEUDEI ANTI FARMAKOU XRHSQAI EP' OFELEIA <I> TON AEOMENWN TOU TOIOUTOU TROPOU.

In French:
31. "Qu'il faudra, à l'occasion, faire du mensonge un remède au service de ceux qui ont besoin d'un tel procédé"
- - "That it is necessary, sometimes, to make a lie/fiction a remedy for the service of those who need such a process".

Gifford's version:
XXXI. That it will be necessary sometimes to use falsehood as a remedy for the benefit of those who require such a mode of treatment

For each book, there is a table at the front of the edition listing the chapters and their titles. In all but one manuscript, these titles also appear at the head of a chapter.
[The subject of chapter divisions and chapter titles in ancient texts is one I am trying to obtain definite information on. However, these cannot be ancient chapter divisions, since chapter divisions seem to come in at the end of antiquity - older literary texts had book divisions, but not chapter divisions. Word divisions were uncommon, as were paragraphing and punctuation! Rather the material at the front is a summary of contents, and a late-antique or medieval copyist has divided the text and used portions of the summary as chapter headings. If we look at the summary for book 1, it does not seem to line up with the chapter divisions. - the 6th item in the list is NOT the chapter heading for chapter 6, which has none; and lines 9 and 10 are not the titles for chapters 9 (=line 8) and 10 (=line 11). From this we can see that the summary and the chapter divisions were not made at the same time. I add this summary from an article on the subject:

"Dunque, possiamo concludere che la divisione in capitoli non fu completamente ignota agli antichi, ma fu adoperata solo per opere con un chiaro fine pratico o per scritti miscellanei, di argomento quanto mai vario, per cataloghi e repertori, mentre non è mai adottata dagli scrittori che avessero un'alta coscienza artistica in tutte quelle opere in cui il proposito letterario o l'interesse storico o l'urgenza della fantasia o anche l'indagine psicologica posero in secondo piano le esigenze pratiche e che perciò solo più tardi furono divise in capitoli dai dotti del Medioevo o addirittura da esperti editori-tipografi nel periodo del pieno fervore degli studi e delle ricerche appassionate dei testi classici, l'Umanesimo."

"Therefore, we can conclude that the division in chapters was not completely unknown to the ancients, but was only used for works with a practical purpose or for written miscellanea, for catalogues and repertoria, while it is never adopted by literary writers in all those works in which the literary purpose or the historical interest or the urgency of the fantasy or psychological surveying, to which the practical requirements are placed second, and that therefore only later they were organised in chapters by the scholars of the Middle Ages or even by expert editor-printers in the period of the full flood of the studies and passionate searches for the classical texts, Humanism." (Diana ALBINO, La divisione in capitoli nelle opere degli Antichi, Annali della facoltà di lettere e filosofia, Napoli, vol. 10 (1962-3) pp. 219-234).]

[NB: I have now added a collection of various translations of the whole passage in classical texts and the context of the book.]

The heading of chapter 31 is the basis of our quotation, more or less exactly.

[Gibbon's version is interesting for both its similarities and its differences. However we need not consider Gibbon further here, except as probably the first to circulate this text as a proof-text against Eusebius. Incidentally it would seem that if Gibbon's reference is accurate, that the 16th century Stephanus edition was perhaps arranged differently to modern editions -- I need to check this. I have seen modern references which refer to XII, 32, rather than XII, 31, which makes it interesting to consider what sort of checking of references was done in that case].

But did Eusebius write these words? And did he mean, as some have considered, to justify fraud when he wrote them?

The Manuscripts
The text in question is certainly present in the manuscripts, as is clear from MRAS and, in abbreviated form, from SIRINELLI:

Here are the MSS of book 12 of the PE (from SIRINELLI, t.206 p.57-8).
I: Marcianus Graecus 341 (15th century, paper) - Library of San Marco, Venice.
O: Bononiensis University 3643 (13th century, bombazin paper) - University Library, Bologna
N: Neapolitanus graecus II A 16 (15th century, paper) - Bibliotheca Nazionale, Naples
D: Parisinus graecus 467 (16th century, paper) - Bibliothèque Nationale, Paris
MRAS' apparatus is slightly more detailed on chapter titles. All four MSS contain our text in the table of titles at the front of each book (MRAS, vol.2 pp.83-84). The titles also appear at the head of each chapter in I, O and N. In D they appear only at the front of the book (MRAS 2, p.125).

Are the chapter titles by Eusebius, or a later editor?
Firstly, as far as I can tell the chapter divisions themselves are later, and the titles placed there were extracted from the summaries at the front of each book (this can be seen from book 1, where the numbering in the summaries at the front does not correspond to the divisions in the text). As such, the assignment of wording to a given chapter is the work of a late-antique or medieval scribe. This leaves us with the summaries at the start of the book. However, the wording in the summary, if the summary follows the order of the contents, would seem to refer to this section of the body of the text anyway.

There seems to be some doubt whether the summaries can be considered certainly by Eusebius, rather than 'helps for the reader' added at a later period. Chapter titles in medieval manuscripts of the classics are not generally considered authorial. However there is some evidence of authorial summaries for some works of Eusebius:-

I learn from SIRINELLI that scholars in general consider the summaries of Eusebius' Historia Ecclesiastica to be authorial. After looking at them in the Loeb text, I can see that there are notes at the foot of some of these tables written as if by the author. On the other hand, I also have before me the introduction to CAMERON & HALL's translation of Eusebius' Life of Constantine, Oxford 1999. Apparently the summaries (and extracts used as chapter titles, doubtless again later) for this work cannot be authorial (C & H, p.52).

From SIRINELLI, I learn that the authenticity of the summaries in the PE has been fiercely debated since the 16th century, with one 19th century scholar going so far as to reject the chapter divisions also. MRAS is in favour of authenticity; SIRINELLI also. I have been unable to locate any study of the subject as a whole. See my notes on capituli generally here.
It would be unfair to expect Gibbon to be conversant with such issues, of course - he took the edition of Stephanus as he found it; and this used the MSS.

The issue is interesting, but inconclusive. However, if we cannot be sure he wrote the words in question, is it quite reasonable to pillory him for it?

[My thanks to Richard CARRIER for a list of works containing tables of contents which are probably authorial]

Lie, Falsehood or Fiction - the YEUDOS problem
If we presume that the chapter title is authorial, there is then a question over how it should be translated. One interesting issue surrounds the word ('pseudos') translated as 'falsehood' by GIFFORD and GIBBON, and as 'mensonge' by SIRINELLI.

The word usually means 'lie' in Greek, but is also more value neutral than 'lie' or 'falsehood' is in English.

Here Eusebius is quoting, in the body of the text, a passage from Plato's Laws, Book II, and the same word is used there; while elsewhere in the PE Book 12 he quotes Plato's Republic, again using this word. In both cases the rendering 'lie' makes perfect sense, in the context of what Plato wanted to say.

Some translators have gone ahead and rendered it 'lie' in their translations of Plato. But R.G. BURY in the Loeb edition of the Laws (PLATO, THE LAWS, BOOK II, 663C,D,E. Loeb edition p.125, tr. R.G.Bury, 1926 - online) renders it as 'fiction'. And Sir Desmond LEE, in the Penguin edition of the Republic (PLATO, THE REPUBLIC, Book II, 376D-377D, Penguin edition, pp.129-131. Tr. Desmond Lee, 1955. - Online) does likewise, and adds the following note on the word:

"2. The Greek word pseudos and its corresponding verb meant not only ‘fiction’ — stories, tales — but also ‘what is not true’ and so, in suitable contexts, ‘lies’: and this ambiguity should be borne in mind."

Consequently, unless the context forbids -- and plainly from BURY we learn it does not -- the chapter heading might equally be rendered:
XXXI. That it will be necessary sometimes to use fiction as a remedy for the benefit of those who require such a mode of treatment

And this, of course, places a different slant on the text, and links neatly with Eusebius' reference to the Old Testament here. If on the other hand we presume the chapter title is by Eusebius, and we presume that the word 'lie' is intended by him, with all its connotation of inflicting injury, then we can reasonably say that the quote doesn't make Eusebius look very good.

But is this -- Gibbon's interpretation -- fair comment? Is Eusebius advocating the use of lies? or is this a discussion of the use of parables, and the value of fiction in education? Clearly there is room for more than one opinion here, and I would rather not suggest certainty where a judgement has to be made of a number of ideas. This is something the reader must do for himself; but I think Eusebius is not advocating dishonesty, so much as suggesting that fiction has a role to play in education.

It is difficult to see Gibbon's remarks as fair comment, particularly when one notices the mistranslation of the final part of the chapter heading.

However, the issue has recently been reopened making use of the chapter text body. The next section will discuss this, as it is really a new allegation.

Written 22nd December 2000, updated with French/Greek 8th April 2001. Updated with link to translations 28th September 2001. Rewording in one or two places to had apparently been misunderstood. 23rd April 2002. Rewritten to add the point about 'pseudos' and details of the MSS, 24th April 2002, after discussion in the infidels.org forum. The old version is still online here. Revised with extra details from MRAS, 10th July 2002. Additional note about summaries - not tables of contents - added after discussion with a medievalist, 10th August 2002. More notes from Albino and some condensing and revision, 17th October 2003. Added note that some translators of Plato use 'lie' for pseudos.

3. 'Can't he lie?'
A new variant of this idea has come onto the internet in the last year. The author is the estimable Richard CARRIER, editor-in-chief of infidels.org. His idea is that the chapter heading and the text itself of PE 12, 31 (quoted above) support the idea that Eusebius is dishonest. As far as I know this is original; at least, Gibbon does not quote the text itself in support of his idea. This idea does not really seem very possible to me, but here are some brief notes on it.

The Infidels.Org idea
This is from his article at
infidels.org/library/modern/richard_car ... on.html#6:

That it is necessary sometimes to use falsehood as a medicine for those who need such an approach. [As said in Plato's Laws 663e by the Athenian:] 'And even the lawmaker who is of little use, if even this is not as he considered it, and as just now the application of logic held it, if he dared lie to young men for a good reason, then can't he lie? For falsehood is something even more useful than the above, and sometimes even more able to bring it about that everyone willingly keeps to all justice.' [then by Clinias:] 'Truth is beautiful, stranger, and steadfast. But to persuade people of it is not easy.' You would find many things of this sort being used even in the Hebrew scriptures, such as concerning God being jealous or falling asleep or getting angry or being subject to some other human passions, for the benefit of those who need such an approach.

On the basis of this, he says:
So in a book where Eusebius is proving that the pagans got all their good ideas from the Jews, he lists as one of those good ideas Plato's argument that lying, indeed telling completely false tales, for the benefit of the state is good and even necessary. Eusebius then notes quite casually how the Hebrews did this, telling lies about their God, and he even compares such lies with medicine, a healthy and even necessary thing. Someone who can accept this as a "good idea" worth both taking credit for and following is not the sort of person to be trusted.

And in support of this interpretation he quotes the portion of the Laws that follows this, not in fact quoted by Eusebius, in which Plato contradicts Clinias, and outlines that it would be easy to spin a tale.

[I understand from Mr. Carrier that he translated from the Thesaurus Lingua Graeca text, as the relevant portion of his copy of Gifford was lacking; that the chapter header also was his own, but the translation of the portion of Plato is said to be from John BURNET, 1903, although I haven't a proper bibliographic reference for this.]

The differences are interesting. The portions of Eusebius seem fair enough, allowing for the 'pseudos' issue. The version of Plato given isn't quite like that of BURY or GIFFORD, and the reader may wish to view those versions.

A number of points come to mind.
1. Eusebius does not say that falsehood and lying are acceptable, for whatever reason. This is an inference from his text, and not a very charitable one either. Few of us would wish to be subjected to such an inference, just because we don't denounce someone else while reviewing them.
2. Plato asks whether, if any lie/fiction/fable is permissible, the one he is discussing might not be one. Plato has been discussing whether or not the self-interest of the individual is the same as the interest of the community. He has just concluded that it is. The comment in question follows. Plato asks us for a moment to imagine that self-interest and public interest are opposed. He asks whether it would not then be justifiable, if any lie were (and he leaves that open), to tell people that in fact they were the same. The purpose is the good of the community, i.e. acting 'justly', rather than selfishly.
3. The infidels.org idea presumes that Eusebius has the idea of 'lie' in mind, rather than that of educational fiction. Pseudos usually has this meaning, it is true. However we have seen that the word 'pseudos' has been rendered otherwise even to translate Plato. Plato seems to have an idea of deception in mind, but is it necessary to presume that Eusebius has?
4. So is Eusebius really saying that the Bible is full of lies, and that this is one of the things the Greeks copied from the Jews? I find it hard to believe that Eusebius thought the bible was full of lies. But if so, surely such a curious proposition would certainly require more evidence than one footnote in the PE, anyway? That the bible contains stories, such as parables, intended to educate is surely a better interpretation? To resolve this, we need to see what Eusebius says elsewhere.
5. The idea presumes not just that Eusebius believes the bible is full of lies, but that if the bible is full of lies, it must be OK to lie; and that Eusebius has applied this in his writings. The purpose of the allegation seems to be to permit some of his testimony to be discarded. The first idea seems very strange, and the others are simply inferences from it. But no evidence is given for any of these.
6. Finally, if the idea of the 'white lie' is a cultural convention of the age, is it entirely reasonable to single out Eusebius?
In fact, if we look at PE 12, 4, we see how Eusebius really thinks about the scriptures - an external literal meaning, which is in fact a parable, and an inner meaning for those who have passed beyond the first stages of instruction. This relates so strongly to what Eusebius says here - 'for those who need this form of instruction' - that it seems pointless to look further.
But what about the issue that Eusebius is showing that the Greeks got all their good ideas from the Jews? This is correct - that is what the PE is about. It's hard to see how the portion of Plato says anything useful, then. But the comment of Clinias is perhaps the idea on which Eusebius is commenting.
'Truth is beautiful, stranger, and steadfast. But to persuade people of it is not easy.' Plato disagrees; but Eusebius omitted his disagreement. Eusebius' comments follow this connecting phrase in the Laws.
[Note: Plato does go on to say that in fact people will easily believe quite ridiculous stories - but Eusebius skips that bit. Since Eusebius' point is that some people have difficulty understanding some things (a theme already raised in chapter IV, in which Eusebius explains his view of scripture), and so scripture resorts to narrative fiction to help them visualise the abstract, it is not surprising that he ignores this part of the Laws. Since he does ignore it, it has to be asked whether it is relevant in understanding the point of this part of the PE.]

Pulling it together
I think we're asking too much of the text, and trying to build a philosophical statement on an inference. Eusebius was concerned to show that Greek ideas had their origin in the bible. For this purpose he ransacked his library for material that would illustrate this. Of course this material was often written with quite other values in mind, and we need not suppose that every word he quotes supports his thesis, or is even relevant. In chapter 32 of the PE he returns to the Laws, a bit further on, and in his comment he ignores all of what he quotes apart from the conclusion. In chapter 31, he is responding to the observation of Clinias, picking up on the idea of fiction as a way to convince more easily than reason, and making a general point about the bible. That Plato's purpose is to the advantage of the community, and the disadvantage of the individual is irrelevant to Eusebius, and he ignores it. All he picks up on is the method of teaching a useful idea, by means of words not strictly true.
Eusebius is following a different idea to Plato, which explains why he is using both The Republic and The Laws as it suits him. He has been looking at education, not of the infants of a community, but of the spiritual infant. In chapter 4 he has already discussed the right use of scripture, and how it contains fables. Here we have the idea that people should be told things not strictly true. (Plato's reason he ignores - the benefit of the community instead of the individual is the reverse of what he is interested in). And he returns to the theme of fables in the bible, and how these benefit the individual.

The heading must be read 'fiction', because the subject is the Old Testament: portions of which cannot be understood literally, in Origenist exegesis.(Cf. De Principiis) Instead an allegorical meaning should be sought. This educational role of material for which the literal meaning is irrelevant -- fiction -- is reiterated by Eusebius at various points from Plato in book 12.

The alternative -- that Eusebius advocates lying -- is not in the text and can only be put there by the translating with "a judicious laxity" of Gibbon (T.R.Glover, Loeb Tertullian, p.xi). The words of Eusebius have to be played down, and words not quoted by him from the passage by Plato emphasised. In short, the allegation is itself a malicious falsehood.
Is this right? Or I am reading too much into this? The reader must decide for himself. However, if we are to say that someone is advocating dishonesty, I think we want more than this. It seems reasonable to ask just where does Eusebius say 'it is OK to lie'?

A couple of points on related issues.
Origenistic exegesis?
When I read the comment of Eusebius, I was reminded of the statement in Origen's De Principiis 4, 3, 5, that in Scripture:
'all has a spiritual meaning, but not everything has a literal meaning.'
Eusebius' mentor Pamphilus wrote a defence of Origen, to which Eusebius added a final book (all now lost except for an unreliable Latin version of the first book by Rufinus). It seemed to me that Eusebius has the allegorical approach of this school in mind.
R.M. GRANT on Eusebius' sincerity

Note: Mr. CARRIER also refers to Robert M. GRANT, Eusebius as Church Historian, Oxford (1980). This I have read myself, looking for more on this idea. Here are the notes I made at the time:

"Grant certainly gave me the impression that he was making assertions of dishonest handling of material, although he never actually says so or does a demonstration of this from the material, so presumably brought it with him to the book. I suppose that since he was engaged in a speculative reconstruction of the process whereby Eusebius wrote books 1-7 (preface, p.10) it can only be an opinion. However I definitely got the impression that Grant thought him guilty of editing without regard for honesty.

He gets closest in pp.65-66, discussing Tertullian in the Greek version, although curiously failing to mention that the technical point is lifted from Harnack's Griechische Uebersetzung. But his complaint - that in his editorial he combined the impression from this and Justin - seems a little unfair. Combining the story told by the disparate accounts and making what sense he could was what Eusebius set out to do. Nor is it unreasonable for someone juggling conflicting witnesses, one of which must be mistaken, to hesitate between them, and do the best he can. But again Grant allows the reader to draw the negative conclusion without making it himself.

As far as I could see, he only squarely faced the issue of sincerity once, in the conclusion (p.164), where he then surprisingly says, "And whether or not one agrees with every detail of the portrait of Eusebius that begins to emerge, it is at least a picture of a huamn being, neither a saint nor intentionally a scoundrel."; which was not the impression I got from the rest of the book, I have to say. As so often in this book, no reference was given, or basis for the statement. However since he refers many times to Lightfoot's article in the Dictionary of Christian Biography, I think we may presume he is thinking of this.

One comment he did make about the Praeparatio I thought interesting, although I can't say I've noticed either in the small extracts I've read. "The Praeparatio, more than any other work, shows that he [Eusebius] knew how to plan a treatise and stick to his plan." (p.29).
Written 25th April 2002. Minor changes 14th July 2007.

4. Postscript - the source of all of them?
I have since come across a likely source for all these errors. It seems there is an electronic publication called 'Biblical Errancy', written by a C. Dennis McKinsey, which contains lists of what used to be quaintly called 'bible difficulties' and assertions of a pseudo-scholarly nature, which most people probably take as made in good faith. This seems to circulate widely and is often reposted to usenet. An extract, discussing the Testimonium Flavianum:
"(3) The passage is not found in the early copies of Josephus. Not until the Ecclesiastical History of Eusebius (320 A.D.) do we come across it. This is the same Eusebius who said that it is lawful to lie and cheat for the cause of Christ: "I have repeated whatever may rebound to the glory, and suppressed all that could tend to the disgrace of our religion" (Chp. 31, Book 12 of Prae Paratio Evangelica). (4) The early Christian fathers such as Justin Martyr, Tertullian, Clement of Alexandria, and Origen were acquainted with what Josephus wrote and it seems reasonable to conclude that they would have quoted this passage had it existed. Apparently Eusebius was the first to use it because it didn't exist during the 2nd and 3rd centuries. Chrysostom often referred to Josephus and it's highly unlikely he would have omitted the paragraph had it been extant. Photius did not quote the text though he had three articles concerning Josephus and even expressly stated that Josephus, being a Jew, had not taken the least notice of Christ. (5) Neither Justin in his dialogue with Trypho, the Jew, nor Origen against Celsus ever mentioned this passage. Neither Tertullian nor Cyprian ever quoted Josephus as a witness in their controversies with Jews and pagans and Origen expressly stated that Josephus, who had mentioned John the Baptist, did not recognize Jesus as the messiah (Contra Celsum, I, 47). (6) The famous historian Gibbon claims the passage is a forgery as do many theologians."

There are no references given for any of this. Note the key mis-spelling of praeparatio as 'Prae Paratio'. In true text critical fashion, I think we may deduce community of origin from the community of error.

It would be unkind to note every error of fact, judgement or grammar that is contained in even this short extract, as the author of it clearly intended to impress by accumulation and repetition rather than by any appeal to fact or reason. A couple of notes on some factual details might be useful as a pointer to the interested.

• A look at the preface to the Loeb edition of Antiquities indicates that no such 'early copies of Josephus' exist. All of the (few) MSS are derived from a single 9th century MS, and all which contain book 16 contain the passage.
• There is no evidence that Justin or Clement knew Josephus. I compiled a list of the handful (11) references in the 5000 pages of the Ante-Nicene Father some time ago and it is here.
• I regret that I can't comment on Chrysostom without doing yet more research.
• The reference to Photius, the 9th century Patriarch of Constantinople, is mistaken or misleading on a number of counts. The comment made by Photius in the Bibliotheca, codex 33, is in the review of a lost work of Justus of Tiberias, not Josephus. The Josephus reviews are codices 47 (on The Jewish War), 76 and 238 (Antiquities). (48 (on The Universe) which Photius ascribes to Josephus is actually by Hippolytus). c.47 mentions only a couple of incidents from the seige of Jerusalem. c.76 deals only with one incident that interested Photius from Antiquities 20.9-11, 20, and does not attempt to give any picture of the rest of the work. c. 238 describes the reign of Herod and after, and so could contain a reference, but does not. It does however include a reference to the execution of James the brother of John. The French editor remarks that it is noteworthy that Photius does not say, as he does for Justus, that Josephus makes no mention of Christ. I have placed the item on Justus online here. (Does anyone want the Josephus extracts?)
• There is no evidence that Justin knew the work.
• There is no evidence that Cyprian (in the Latin West, remember) knew the work.
• Tertullian does not use Josephus in his controversy with Jews, but in defending the Jews to the pagans. No writer of antiquity quotes Josephus against the Jews, probably because he was a traitor.
• The quotation from Origen is correct (at last!). Of course his silence about the Testimonium is not evidence that his copy did not contain it, or that it did, or indeed anything about anything. As the archaeologists say, absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. It is evidence that the text may have become corrupt, and that this may perhaps have occurred after Origen's time.
[Note: My thanks to Jim Java for telling me that McKinsey in turn appears to have copied verbatim, and with spelling errors, from a volume he has seen: T.W.DOANE, Bible myths and their parallels in other religions, Somerby (1882). This is still in print, I learn. However I can't check it myself as I don't have access to a copy]
Written 1st June 2001. Updated with DOANE reference 10th July 2002.

5. A QUOTE FROM EUSEBIUS
"I prize truth above all else" (Chronicon, 1-4. Barnes, T.D. Eusebius and Constantine, Harvard 1981, p.114.)
Dr. Barnes adds the interesting view that the HE originally ended with book 7. Book 8 of the HE is a revised and shortened version of the original Martyrs of Palestine, extant in a much longer version than that in the Ante-Nicene Fathers. The history as such does not resume until book 9. The text of the preface of this longer version is as follows:
"It is meet, then, that the conflicts which were illustrious in various districts should be committed to writing by those who dwelt with the combatants in their districts. But for me, I pray that I may be able to speak of those with whom I was personally conversant, and that they may associate me with them - those in whom the whole people of Palestine glories, because even in the midst of our land, the Saviour of all men arose like a thirst-quenching spring. The contests, then, of those illustrious champions I shall relate for the general instruction and profit". (Barnes p.154-4, from Lawlor H.J and Oulton, J.E.L, Eusebius, 1.33.1, SPCK, 1927).

which makes it clear that the Martyrs of Palestine is about those Eusebius knew personally (he was Bishop of the city where the executions occurred), and that this information has suffered somewhat in the process of abbreviation.

6. A possible source in Origen?
[My thanks for Gerald Rosenberg for drawing my attention to the following possible source, and pointing out the existence of the Greek of Origen online]
We know from Eusebius Contra Hieroclem that Eusebius had read Origen Contra Celsum. There is a very interesting passage in this work which may bear on all this subject, in Book IV, chapter 19 (p.196 of Chadwick's translation, Cambridge University Press, 1980):
19. Others may agree with Celsus that He does not change, but makes those who see Him think that he has changed. But we, who are persuaded that the advent of Jesus to men was not a mere appearance, but a reality and an indisputable fact, are unaffected by Celsus' criticism. Nevertheless we will reply thus: "Do you not say, Celsus, that sometimes it is allowable to use deceit and lying as a medicine? Why, then, is it unthinkable that something of this sort occurred with the purpose of bringing salvation? For some characters are reformed by certain doctrines which are more false than true, just as physicians sometimes use similar words to their patients. This however has been our defence on other points. But further, there is nothing wrong if the person who heals sick friends healed the human race which was dear to him with such means as one would not use for choice, but to which he was confined by force of circumstances." [etc].

The quote of Celsus is in ch. 18, where Celsus denies that God could have changed into a mortal body, and says that it must have been only an appearance. This, he continues, is a lie, and lying is only allowable 'when one uses them as a medicine for friends who are sick and mad in order to heal them, or with enemies when the intention is to escape danger'. (Chadwick notes, p.195 n.4, that Celsus is quoting Plato, Rep. 382C; 389B; 459 C, D.) Origen responds that the incarnation is not a simulation. But then he goes on to suppose if it were otherwise, and then make the above quote.

The Greek for Contra Celsum is actually online, as a demo at the Thesaurus Lingua Graeca site: http://ptolemy.tlg.uci.edu/%7Etlg/.(Text is M. BORRET, Origène. Contre Celse, 4 vols. [Sources chrétiennes 132, 136, 147, 150. Paris: Cerf, 1:1967; 2:1968; 3-4:1969]) Here is the start of book 4, chapter 19:
(19.) 1Alloi me\n ou}n dido&twsan tw|~ Ke/lsw| o3ti ou) metaba&llei
me/n, poiei= de\ tou_j o(rw~ntaj dokei=n au)to_n metabeblhke/nai:
h(mei=j de\ peiqo&menoi ou) do&khsin a)ll' a)lh&qeian ei]nai kai\
e0na&rgeian kata_ th_n 0Ihsou~ ei0j a)nqrw&pouj e0pidhmi/an, ou)x
u(pokei/meqa th|~ Ke/lsou kathgori/a|. 3Omwj d' a)pologhso&meqa (5)
o3ti ou) fh|&j, w} Ke/lse, w(j e0n farma&kou moi/ra| pote\ di/dotai
xrh~sqai tw|~ plana~n kai\ tw|~ yeu&desqai; Ti/ ou}n a1topon, ei0
toiou~to&n ti e1melle sw|&zein, toiou~to&n ti gegone/nai; Kai\ ga&r
tinej tw~n lo&gwn ta_ toiadi\ h1qh kata_ to_ yeu~doj ma~llon
lego&menoi e0pistre/fousin, w3sper kai\ tw~n i0atrw~n pote lo&goi (10)
toioi/de pro_j tou_j ka&mnontaj, h1per kata_ to_ a)lhqe/j. 0Alla_
tau~ta me\n peri\ e9te/rwn a)polelogh&sqw h(mi=n. Kai\ ga_r ou)k
a1topo&n e0sti to_n i0w&menon fi/louj nosou~ntaj i0a&sasqai to_ fi/lon
tw~n a)nqrw&pwn ge/noj toi=j toioi=sde, oi[j ou)k a1n tij xrh&saito
prohgoume/nwj a)ll' e0k perista&sewj. Kai\ memhno_j de\ to_ (15)
ge/noj tw~n a)nqrw&pwn e1dei qerapeuqh~nai dia_ meqo&dwn, w{n
e9w&ra o( lo&goj xrhsi/mwn toi=j memhno&sin, i3na swfronh&swsi.
Fhsi\ d' o3ti kai\ ta_ toia&de tij poiei= pro_j e0xqrou&j, ki/ndunon
e0kfugei=n promhqou&menoj. Ou) fobei=tai de/ tinaj o( qeo&j, i3na
planh&saj tou_j e0pibouleu&ontaj ki/ndunon diafu&gh|. Pa&nth|

From which we can see that the chapter title in Eusebius has not just been lifted verbatim from Origen. However, did Eusebius have this in mind, and so perhaps write the chapter heading thus? Or was it perhaps simply a commonplace from Plato, which anyone might have written? It is certainly an interesting parallel!

7. Another possible source via Blavatsky from Mosheim
Joel McDermon, who wrote an interesting article for American Vision (available here) on this same subject uncovered another piece of the jigsaw:
I first came across the quote while reading the occultist and supporter of the mystery-religion origin for Christian doctrine, Madame Blavatsky. In her 1877 Isis Unveiled, Vol. II, p. 303, she gives the same quote with the exact wording. She attributes it to a work called "Ecclesiastical History." At first glance the careless reader ---- because of the careless author ---- will recognize the title as belonging to Eusebius. But there are dozens of other works by that title, and this is one of them. The Ecclesiastical History in question is actually that of John Lawrence von Mosheim, originally published in 1755. The English translation I have access to is Murdock’s from 1847. So what was the actual quote about?
Far from giving a quote from Eusebius, Mosheim was actually referring to the corrupt atmosphere of the church in general in the fourth century. After describing the entrance of "a long train of superstitious observances," 1 he wrote,

To these defects in the moral system of the age, must be added two principal errors now wellnigh pubicly adopted, and from which afterwards immense evils resulted. The first was, that to deceive and lie, is a virtue, when religion can be promoted by it. The other was, that errors in religion, when maintained and adhered to after proper admonition, ought to be visited with penalties and punishments.2

The quote in question nowhere shows up in Eusebius, or any other early Church father for that matter. How the tale got twisted is easy to see. Blavatsky did not cite the author, but in the following sentences says that this doctrine of lying was "applied" by Eusebius (Of course she furnishes no proof of this). Some careless reader probably read the text, assumed it was Eusebius, and then ran to the web to publish his new proof of why not accept Christ.

Then all the anti-Christian cohorts copied the error and now webville is littered with more slander.

1. Mosheim, John Lawrence von. The Institutes of Ecclesiastical History, Ancient and Modern. Volume I. tr. James Murdock. (New York: Harper and Brothers, 1847), Book II, Century IV, Part II, Chapter III, Sec. 2 (p. 259).
2. Ibid., Book II, Century IV, Part II, Chapter III, Sec. 16 (p. 267). For clarity, I have changed the original italics that emphasized portions of the text.
That some of our quotations do indeed have this source seems most likely.
Constructive feedback is welcomed to Roger Pearse.
Last updated 12nd January, 2001.
PE portion updated 23rd April 2002.
Origen portion added 7th June 2002.
Small revisions from MRAS, 10th July 2002.
Rewording of some chapter title stuff and passage from Albino added, 17th October 2003.
Blavatsky/Mosheim stuff added, 7th July 2006.
http://www.tertullian.org/rpearse/euseb ... tm#rebound


_________________
“I think one of [James Hoffmeier’s] most important points is that we have unrealistic expectations for what archaeology can offer us as far as ‘proving’ Exodus: ‘After all, what evidence, short of an inscription in a Proto-Canaanite script stating “bricks made by Hebrew slaves” would be considered proof that the Israelites were in Egypt. Archaeology’s ability … is quite limited.’” Jeff Lambert, Editorial Associate, Biblical Archaeological Review. via email January 26, 2010 8:20:58 AM. [email receipiant redacted for privacy reasons. See Thread-The Bible's Buried Secrets for full text.]


Fri Aug 27, 2010 8:58 am
Profile Email
User avatar
Years of membershipYears of membership
Banned

Banned
Diamond Contributor

Joined: Aug 2009
Posts: 4141
Location: Florida
Thanks: 121
Thanked: 143 times in 133 posts
Gender: Male

Post Re: The really BIG miracles of Jesus
Star Burst wrote:
Robert Tulip wrote:
Quote:
Your comment about the Baha'i faith is a typical rude and baseless ad hominem insult,


That was the whole point of my post Robert. Christians and Christianity see themselves as the only right religion in the world! Too bad their so called saviour never even heard the word Christian! Most likely as well he did not! Their other saviour Paul invented the word.


What difference does it make that the word Christian was not used prior to: wait a minute, can Star Burst tell me where the word Christian was first used?

What does Christian mean?
Follwer of Christ?
What were the disciples informally called?
Followers of Christ.

You also neglect to understand that Jesus rose from the dead and is alive today, so He has most definitely heard the word Christian.


_________________
“I think one of [James Hoffmeier’s] most important points is that we have unrealistic expectations for what archaeology can offer us as far as ‘proving’ Exodus: ‘After all, what evidence, short of an inscription in a Proto-Canaanite script stating “bricks made by Hebrew slaves” would be considered proof that the Israelites were in Egypt. Archaeology’s ability … is quite limited.’” Jeff Lambert, Editorial Associate, Biblical Archaeological Review. via email January 26, 2010 8:20:58 AM. [email receipiant redacted for privacy reasons. See Thread-The Bible's Buried Secrets for full text.]


Fri Aug 27, 2010 9:02 am
Profile Email
User avatar
Years of membershipYears of membershipYears of membership
Upper Echelon 3rd Class

BookTalk.org Moderator

Joined: Mar 2009
Posts: 2397
Images: 7
Location: Michigan
Thanks: 803
Thanked: 608 times in 439 posts
Gender: Male
Country: United States (us)

Post Re: The really BIG miracles of Jesus
Oh, star....

You and your imaginary undead messiah...

I would like to point out that the really "BIG" miracles of Jesus are actually not very impressive by modern fiction standards.

Characters were doing much more impressive things in the Matrix movies, comic books are filled with nigh omnipotent characters which can re-shape all of reality on a whim, create alternate universes and people them with artificial life of their own design.

Healing the blind and coming back from the dead are not all that striking in comparison.


It just goes to show that our supernatural entities are a reflection of our understanding of the world. That is why i was saying that the bible is not very imaginative. How could it compare to modern fiction whe the authors knew so little about the world, how it works, or even that there were lands over the horizon with far more advanced civilizations than theirs.


_________________
Have you tried that? Looking for answers?
Or have you been content to be terrified of a thing you know nothing about?

Nowhere in the Bible does it state that the truth would be revealed through logic and evidence.
-James Williamson MD

Science flies you to the moon. Religion flies you into buildings.

In the absence of God, I found Man.
-Guillermo Del Torro

If you think education is expensive, try ignorance.
-Derek Bok

You wouldn't like me when i'm angry... Because I always back up my rage with facts and documented sources.
-The Credible Hulk


Fri Aug 27, 2010 10:58 am
Profile Personal album
User avatar
Years of membershipYears of membership
Banned

Banned
Diamond Contributor

Joined: Aug 2009
Posts: 4141
Location: Florida
Thanks: 121
Thanked: 143 times in 133 posts
Gender: Male

Post Re: The really BIG miracles of Jesus
johnson1010 wrote:
Oh, star....

You and your imaginary undead messiah...

I would like to point out that the really "BIG" miracles of Jesus are actually not very impressive by modern fiction standards.

Characters were doing much more impressive things in the Matrix movies, comic books are filled with nigh omnipotent characters which can re-shape all of reality on a whim, create alternate universes and people them with artificial life of their own design.

Healing the blind and coming back from the dead are not all that striking in comparison.


It just goes to show that our supernatural entities are a reflection of our understanding of the world. That is why i was saying that the bible is not very imaginative. How could it compare to modern fiction whe the authors knew so little about the world, how it works, or even that there were lands over the horizon with far more advanced civilizations than theirs.


I am not the author of this thread and did not select the title. I would not classify miracles as large or small.

The Bible is not intended to be entertainment so why would you expect it to be imaginative.

You do realize tht movies are entertainment. People don't really die in them and the special effect people do the miracle stuff.

I went to see Watchmen last year. What a lot of junk that was. A graphic novels take on where god came from. It was boring.

but thanks for posting.


_________________
“I think one of [James Hoffmeier’s] most important points is that we have unrealistic expectations for what archaeology can offer us as far as ‘proving’ Exodus: ‘After all, what evidence, short of an inscription in a Proto-Canaanite script stating “bricks made by Hebrew slaves” would be considered proof that the Israelites were in Egypt. Archaeology’s ability … is quite limited.’” Jeff Lambert, Editorial Associate, Biblical Archaeological Review. via email January 26, 2010 8:20:58 AM. [email receipiant redacted for privacy reasons. See Thread-The Bible's Buried Secrets for full text.]


Fri Aug 27, 2010 11:34 am
Profile Email
User avatar
Years of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membership
Master of Posting

BookTalk.org Moderator
Gold Contributor

Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 3724
Images: 3
Location: California
Highscores: 1
Thanks: 349
Thanked: 749 times in 564 posts
Gender: Male
Country: United States (us)

Post Re: The really BIG miracles of Jesus
Quote:
You also neglect to understand that Jesus rose from the dead and is alive today, so He has most definitely heard the word Christian.


What, exactly, is being neglected here? Do you have any evidence for the claim that Jesus is still alive, or that he even rose from the dead? Stop making stuff up.



Fri Aug 27, 2010 12:40 pm
Profile Personal album
User avatar
Years of membershipYears of membership
Banned

Banned
Diamond Contributor

Joined: Aug 2009
Posts: 4141
Location: Florida
Thanks: 121
Thanked: 143 times in 133 posts
Gender: Male

Post Re: The really BIG miracles of Jesus
Interbane wrote:
Quote:
You also neglect to understand that Jesus rose from the dead and is alive today, so He has most definitely heard the word Christian.


What, exactly, is being neglected here? Do you have any evidence for the claim that Jesus is still alive, or that he even rose from the dead? Stop making stuff up.


I forgot to include, "Stop making stuff up," in my list of slogans. You seem to be resorting to it frequently. I did not make up Jesus' resurrection. If we are to have a serious discussion there are certain things you need to avoid and the sloganeering is one of them. I don't mind it especially, except that it takes time to respond to and you lose gravitas.

As for proving, I direct your attention to the epistemology and the Bible discussion. I will post more about the Biblethere and I also direct your attention to the federal rules of evidence.


_________________
“I think one of [James Hoffmeier’s] most important points is that we have unrealistic expectations for what archaeology can offer us as far as ‘proving’ Exodus: ‘After all, what evidence, short of an inscription in a Proto-Canaanite script stating “bricks made by Hebrew slaves” would be considered proof that the Israelites were in Egypt. Archaeology’s ability … is quite limited.’” Jeff Lambert, Editorial Associate, Biblical Archaeological Review. via email January 26, 2010 8:20:58 AM. [email receipiant redacted for privacy reasons. See Thread-The Bible's Buried Secrets for full text.]


Fri Aug 27, 2010 1:09 pm
Profile Email
User avatar
Years of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membership
Master of Posting

BookTalk.org Moderator
Gold Contributor

Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 3724
Images: 3
Location: California
Highscores: 1
Thanks: 349
Thanked: 749 times in 564 posts
Gender: Male
Country: United States (us)

Post Re: The really BIG miracles of Jesus
Quote:
I forgot to include, "Stop making stuff up," in my list of slogans.


Building a list of my slogans won't prevent them from being true, it will only make you feel better when I accurately apply them. It's self-gratification deflection. Why not be honest and accept the truth that the slogans imply? If you're not 'making stuff up', then who is? Somebody is, because the things you say are utterly and completely unsupported.



Fri Aug 27, 2010 1:29 pm
Profile Personal album
User avatar
Years of membershipYears of membership
Banned

Banned
Diamond Contributor

Joined: Aug 2009
Posts: 4141
Location: Florida
Thanks: 121
Thanked: 143 times in 133 posts
Gender: Male

Post Re: The really BIG miracles of Jesus
Interbane wrote:
Quote:
I forgot to include, "Stop making stuff up," in my list of slogans.


Building a list of my slogans won't prevent them from being true, it will only make you feel better when I accurately apply them. It's self-gratification deflection. Why not be honest and accept the truth that the slogans imply? If you're not 'making stuff up', then who is? Somebody is, because the things you say are utterly and completely unsupported.


We had been having a robust back and forth until I presented the scientist and all of a sudden the old; straw man, making stuff up, etc. showed up. Exactly what did I make up. Please state it specifically, word for word?

thank you.


_________________
“I think one of [James Hoffmeier’s] most important points is that we have unrealistic expectations for what archaeology can offer us as far as ‘proving’ Exodus: ‘After all, what evidence, short of an inscription in a Proto-Canaanite script stating “bricks made by Hebrew slaves” would be considered proof that the Israelites were in Egypt. Archaeology’s ability … is quite limited.’” Jeff Lambert, Editorial Associate, Biblical Archaeological Review. via email January 26, 2010 8:20:58 AM. [email receipiant redacted for privacy reasons. See Thread-The Bible's Buried Secrets for full text.]


Fri Aug 27, 2010 1:49 pm
Profile Email
User avatar
Years of membershipYears of membershipYears of membership
Upper Echelon 3rd Class

BookTalk.org Moderator

Joined: Mar 2009
Posts: 2397
Images: 7
Location: Michigan
Thanks: 803
Thanked: 608 times in 439 posts
Gender: Male
Country: United States (us)

Post Re: The really BIG miracles of Jesus
Quote:
The Bible is not intended to be entertainment so why would you expect it to be imaginative.


Quote:
You do realize tht movies are entertainment. People don't really die in them and the special effect people do the miracle stuff.


This, right here, is why you ultimately can't be taken seriously in these matters, Star. You really don't see the glaring duality of what this implies? I suspect you will want me to elaborate, so i will save you the trouble of typing that first volley.

The bible is just as full of special effects wizardry as modern entertainment. A format that i never implied was to be believed. The only smoke and mirrors show you will accept is the magic that happens in the bible.

The Bible is usually not considered entertainment, but certainly the product of someone's imagination. Consider the scale used in the bible vs the scale used in modern fiction.

The authors of the bible did all they could think to make the story seem vast and encompassing, even including a myth about creation. You yourself have posted on this thread that when Jesus comes back there will be a thousand years of peace. That is a large number and suitably impressive on a human scale, but it is almost un noticeable on the time scale of planets. a thousand years is a miniscule amount of time for a planet. That was the best the authors could do because they probably had never even conceived of numbers as large as the actual age of the planet.

heaven is imagined to be a fluffy place in the sky, or a place where everyone can have a mansion, or that the roads are paved with gold. Hell is a place where you burn forever, or suffer other forms of torture, or get the silent treatment from god, abiding forever in darkness.

These are limited conceptions bound by our tendency to think of ourselves as being inside of a body. Why would anyone need mansions, or gold, or 72 virgins, or anything of that sort once you are dead? Why would fire be a problem when you have no nerves? The body is a construct meant to deal with the obstacles and opportunities of life on earth, if heaven and hell are beyond earthly life, then all of these promises of reward and punishment are meaningless.

Small imaginations which were limited in perspective came up with these ideas, and it shows. Look no further than H.P. Lovecraft. Just as the writers of the bible were the product of their times, so was Lovecraft. New discoveries informed his imagination, and so the mythological demon gods of his books were billions of years old, ancient races inhabited the earth before we evolved aliens might live not only on different planets, but alternate dimensions and numerous other fictional plot devices gleaned from real scientific advances.

The story of the Cthulu mythos, by virtue of being a product of it’s time, utterly dwarfs the tiny splotch of land, history, and events covered in the bible.

Quote:
I went to see Watchmen last year. What a lot of junk that was. A graphic novels take on where god came from. It was boring.


Incidentally, Watchmen was not about where god comes from.


_________________
Have you tried that? Looking for answers?
Or have you been content to be terrified of a thing you know nothing about?

Nowhere in the Bible does it state that the truth would be revealed through logic and evidence.
-James Williamson MD

Science flies you to the moon. Religion flies you into buildings.

In the absence of God, I found Man.
-Guillermo Del Torro

If you think education is expensive, try ignorance.
-Derek Bok

You wouldn't like me when i'm angry... Because I always back up my rage with facts and documented sources.
-The Credible Hulk


Fri Aug 27, 2010 2:38 pm
Profile Personal album
User avatar
Years of membershipYears of membership
Banned

Banned
Diamond Contributor

Joined: Aug 2009
Posts: 4141
Location: Florida
Thanks: 121
Thanked: 143 times in 133 posts
Gender: Male

Post Re: The really BIG miracles of Jesus
johnson1010 wrote:
Quote:
The Bible is not intended to be entertainment so why would you expect it to be imaginative.


Quote:
You do realize tht movies are entertainment. People don't really die in them and the special effect people do the miracle stuff.


This, right here, is why you ultimately can't be taken seriously in these matters, Star. You really don't see the glaring duality of what this implies? I suspect you will want me to elaborate, so i will save you the trouble of typing that first volley.

The bible is just as full of special effects wizardry as modern entertainment. A format that i never implied was to be believed. The only smoke and mirrors show you will accept is the magic that happens in the bible.

The Bible is usually not considered entertainment, but certainly the product of someone's imagination. Consider the scale used in the bible vs the scale used in modern fiction.


Your point escapes me.

johnson1010 wrote:
The authors of the bible did all they could think to make the story seem vast and encompassing, even including a myth about creation. You yourself have posted on this thread that when Jesus comes back there will be a thousand years of peace. That is a large number and suitably impressive on a human scale, but it is almost un noticeable on the time scale of planets. a thousand years is a miniscule amount of time for a planet. That was the best the authors could do because they probably had never even conceived of numbers as large as the actual age of the planet.


I don't see the relevance of the time scale. So what if you think 1,000 years is a small number. As far as conceiving of large numbers once again, you betray the general ignorance of BT members with respect to the Bible. Abraham was told that his descendants would be infintely numerous in one place, like the number of stars, in another place like the grains of sand. One might argue that this was an indication that the authors of the Bible were indicating that there were more stars than visible to the naked eye.

johnson1010 wrote:
heaven is imagined to be a fluffy place in the sky, or a place where everyone can have a mansion, or that the roads are paved with gold. Hell is a place where you burn forever, or suffer other forms of torture, or get the silent treatment from god, abiding forever in darkness.

These are limited conceptions bound by our tendency to think of ourselves as being inside of a body. Why would anyone need mansions, or gold, or 72 virgins, or anything of that sort once you are dead? Why would fire be a problem when you have no nerves? The body is a construct meant to deal with the obstacles and opportunities of life on earth, if heaven and hell are beyond earthly life, then all of these promises of reward and punishment are meaningless.


Because my friend, we will not be disembodied spirits. We will have a body. It will be similar to what we have now but also very different. It will be like the body that Jesus had after the resurrection.

johnson1010 wrote:
Small imaginations which were limited in perspective came up with these ideas, and it shows. Look no further than H.P. Lovecraft. Just as the writers of the bible were the product of their times, so was Lovecraft. New discoveries informed his imagination, and so the mythological demon gods of his books were billions of years old, ancient races inhabited the earth before we evolved aliens might live not only on different planets, but alternate dimensions and numerous other fictional plot devices gleaned from real scientific advances.


this is a total miss. At one time you or tat or Bart or someone was going to write their own Bible. As I expected it lasted about two paragraphs. It is not easy to write a book. Have you every written one?

johnson1010 wrote:
The story of the Cthulu mythos, by virtue of being a product of it’s time, utterly dwarfs the tiny splotch of land, history, and events covered in the bible.


I am convinced.

johnson1010 wrote:
I went to see Watchmen last year. What a lot of junk that was. A graphic novels take on where god came from. It was boring.


Incidentally, Watchmen was not about where god comes from.[/quote]

Funny, I could swear at the end the naked blue guy was a god and so bored he didn't care.


_________________
“I think one of [James Hoffmeier’s] most important points is that we have unrealistic expectations for what archaeology can offer us as far as ‘proving’ Exodus: ‘After all, what evidence, short of an inscription in a Proto-Canaanite script stating “bricks made by Hebrew slaves” would be considered proof that the Israelites were in Egypt. Archaeology’s ability … is quite limited.’” Jeff Lambert, Editorial Associate, Biblical Archaeological Review. via email January 26, 2010 8:20:58 AM. [email receipiant redacted for privacy reasons. See Thread-The Bible's Buried Secrets for full text.]


Fri Aug 27, 2010 2:59 pm
Profile Email
Years of membershipYears of membership
Masters


Joined: Apr 2010
Posts: 468
Images: 0
Highscores: 3
Thanks: 25
Thanked: 29 times in 28 posts
Gender: Male
Country: United States (us)

Post Re: The really BIG miracles of Jesus
Quote:
As for Eusebius, that it the LIE that will not DIE. It is part of Urban Legend land, perpetuated by those trying to impune Christianity.


My ass! He admitted it! Theres written record of him admitting it! Your delusional thinking is even beyond my meager comprehension!



Fri Aug 27, 2010 4:37 pm
Profile Personal album
User avatar
Years of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membership
Master of Posting

BookTalk.org Moderator
Gold Contributor

Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 3724
Images: 3
Location: California
Highscores: 1
Thanks: 349
Thanked: 749 times in 564 posts
Gender: Male
Country: United States (us)

Post Re: The really BIG miracles of Jesus
Quote:
We had been having a robust back and forth until I presented the scientist and all of a sudden the old; straw man, making stuff up, etc. showed up. Exactly what did I make up.


:lol:

It's funny how when you make stuff up, other people "all of a sudden" accuse you of making it up! You're a riot. Here it is:

Stahrwe: "You also neglect to understand that Jesus rose from the dead and is alive today, so He has most definitely heard the word Christian."

But to give you the benefit of the doubt, I think you're merely repeating something that another person made up.



Fri Aug 27, 2010 11:19 pm
Profile Personal album
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 159 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1 ... 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11  Next



Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:


Celebrating 10 Years Online!

BookTalk.org Links 
Forum Rules & Tips
Frequently Asked Questions
BBCode Explained
Info for Authors & Publishers
Featured Book Suggestions
Author Interview Transcripts
Be a Book Discussion Leader!
    

Love to talk about books but don't have time for our book discussion forums? For casual book talk join us on Facebook.

Support BookTalk.org 
BookTalk.org is being upgraded to a totally new design. This upgrade is expensive. Any support would be VERY helpful! See who supports us.
Make a donation

PEOPLE PAYING FOR OUR UPGRADE:

• afv - $10 May
• LevV - $50 March
• Dexter - $10 March
• supernova38 - $25 March
• Oblivion - $20 March
• jheimlich - $20 February
• Robert Tulip - $50 February
• giselle - $50 January


Featured Books

Recent Blogging 

WORMING TABLETS AND WESTFIELD

24th March

Children here need worming regularly, and  I think I need to buy more worming tablets, so while my friends sit on the beach, I have to catch bush taxis up to the… more

Posted: 19 days ago
by heledd

TUESDAY 20TH MARCH

The children have a long way to walk to the nearest primary school. At the moment they are in temporary accommodation, with volunteer teachers. There is community land available, a… more

Posted: 21 days ago
by heledd

The 12th Disciple $3.99 (USD) on Kindle...

The price of The 12th Disciple has been updated to $3.99 for Kindle readers. The book is still available for free to borrow for Amazon Prime members.  To be competitive, and s… more

Posted: 23 days ago
by 12th disciple

The 12th Disciple reviews...

The 12th Disciple has been reviewed by two different people on Amazon. They purchased the Kindle edition; one in the US, one in the UK. One review was 5-stars (US) and the oth… more

Posted: 32 days ago
by 12th disciple

The Stages In and Out of Life

From the book; The Joys of Live Alchemy

Every human being experiences distinct stages in their lives. First, birth... Second, learning to walk and talk…Third, learning the rule… more

Posted: 40 days ago
by michaellevys

Hello world!

Welcome to BookTalk.org Blogs. This is your first post. Edit or delete it, then start blogging!

See those links at the very top of the page? To get into your control panel for… more

Posted: 40 days ago
by michaellevys

Cutting Truths - Book Review

This review is from: Cutting Truths: Fifty Enlightening Slices of Life (Paperback) 178 pages ... 5.0 out of 5 stars     Sleeper Cells Awaken,

By Julie Clayton… more

Posted: 41 days ago
by michaellevys

Nonviolence Quotes

From Gandhi:

“Anger is the enemy of nonviolence and pride is the monster that swallows it up.”

“An eye for an eye will make the whole world blind.”

“I have nothing ne… more

Posted: 45 days ago
by jamessanderson

Harry Potter Enthusiast

I'd like to say I've been reading Harry Potter since the day the world renown series appeared on the scene.  Unfortunately, the truth is I began reading Harry Potter… more

Posted: 47 days ago
by kinse1na

Good Friday, Better Saturday, Blessed Sunday

Easter teaches many of us the importance of redemption and resurrection. Regardless of what faith people follow, the story of Jesus Christ has been told in many languages in many c… more

Posted: 48 days ago
by 12th disciple

Let The Blogging Begin!

Our Book Talk will begin on Wednesday, May 2nd. I look forward to hearing about your learning and classroom experiences with Number Talks as it all unfolds...

Posted: 52 days ago
by msbeth

MONDAY 12TH MARCH. COMMONWEALTH DAY

Today is Commonwealth Day. All the children come in their various ethnic clothes and bring food traditional to their groups.

We have Fula, Mandinka, Manjargo, Wollof , Jola… more

Posted: 54 days ago
by heledd

CHRISTIAN NONVIOLENCE

NONOPPOSITIONAL NONVIOLENCE “The minute you conquer the fear of death, at that moment you are free. I submit to you that if a man hasn’t discovered something that he will die f… more

Posted: 55 days ago
by jamessanderson

FEBRUARY 26TH, SUNDAY

Yesterday, when I went to feed Jeni the donkey, I noticed swarms of bees entering Ebrima’s house through the cracks in the door. We both had a look, but he didn’t open his door… more

Posted: 55 days ago
by heledd

Exciting News...Now You Can Order Blessings of the Father - Book One on sale at only $4.98 on B&N.com!

Hello fellow followers of the written word:

I'm pleased to tell you that there is finally a downloadable epub version for Book One of my saga; Blessings of the Father … more

Posted: 80 days ago
by mitchreed

What Number Talks Is All About

Whether you want to implement number talks but are unsure of how to begin or have experience but want more guidance in crafting purposeful problems, this dynamic multimedia resourc… more

Posted: 80 days ago
by msbeth

Feeling Entitled Is Not Always A Bad Thing

Do you feel entitled? For years I have listened to and, in some instances, complained that some people in America feel entitled. For years I have watched as these people are portra… more

Posted: 81 days ago
by life is a business

Free Kindle promotion very successful for The 12th Disciple

On Fat Tuesday and Ash Wednesday of 2012, The 12th Disciple was free to Kindle users on both days. In all, about 550 worldwide Kindle users downloaded a copy of the book.

The 12… more

Posted: 82 days ago
by 12th disciple

Sacred Are the Brave

‘Sacred Are the Brave’ a collection of short stories about the nonviolent revolutions 1986-1989 is now available in Kindle. Each of the nine stories has characters who are just … more

Posted: 85 days ago
by jamessanderson

The Weekend Trippers

The Weekend Trippers’ is the true story of Rfn Ted Taylor and his part in the heroic last stand in Calais May 1940. The Weekend Trippers is based on Ted’s diaries written at the… more

Posted: 87 days ago
by carolemct




BookTalk.org Chat Room 
Enter the BookTalk.org Chat Room

Enter our Chat [0]

Chat Room Always Open!

Tell your friends when to meet you
in the BookTalk.org Chat Room.

If you enjoy business bestsellers and would like to expand your business knowledge check out the quality book summaries offered by the world's leading book summary company.






BookTalk.org is a free book discussion group or online reading group or book club. We read and talk about both fiction and non-fiction books as a group. We host live author chats where booktalk members can interact with and interview authors. We give away free books to our members in book giveaway contests. Our booktalks are open to everybody who enjoys talking about books. Our book forums include book reviews, author interviews and book resources for readers and book lovers. Discussing books is our passion. We're a literature forum, or reading forum. Register a free book club account today! Suggest nonfiction and fiction books. Authors and publishers are welcome to advertise their books or ask for an author chat or author interview.


Navigation 
MAIN NAVIGATION

HOMEFORUMSBOOKSTRANSCRIPTSOLD FORUMSADVERTISELINKSBLOGSFAQDONATETERMS OF USEPRIVACY POLICY

BOOK FORUMS FOR ALL BOOKS WE HAVE DISCUSSED
Moby Dick: or, the Whale by Herman MelvilleA Visit from the Goon Squad by Jennifer EganLost Memory of Skin: A Novel by Russell BanksThe Structure of Scientific Revolutions by Thomas S. KuhnHobbes: Leviathan by Thomas HobbesThe House of the Spirits - by Isabel AllendeArguably: Essays by Christopher HitchensThe Falls: A Novel (P.S.) by Joyce Carol OatesChrist in Egypt by D.M. MurdockThe Glass Bead Game: A Novel by Hermann HesseA Devil's Chaplain by Richard DawkinsThe Hero with a Thousand Faces by Joseph CampbellThe Brothers Karamazov by Fyodor DostoyevskyThe Adventures of Huckleberry Finn by Mark TwainThe Moral Landscape by Sam HarrisThe Decameron by Giovanni BoccaccioThe Road by Cormac McCarthyThe Grand Design by Stephen HawkingThe Evolution of God by Robert WrightThe Tin Drum by Gunter GrassGood Omens by Neil GaimanPredictably Irrational by Dan ArielyThe Wind-Up Bird Chronicle: A Novel by Haruki MurakamiALONE: Orphaned on the Ocean by Richard Logan & Tere Duperrault FassbenderDon Quixote by Miguel De CervantesMusicophilia by Oliver SacksDiary of a Madman and Other Stories by Nikolai GogolThe Passion of the Western Mind by Richard TarnasThe Left Hand of Darkness by Ursula K. Le GuinThe Genius of the Beast by Howard BloomAlice's Adventures in Wonderland by Lewis Carroll Empire of Illusion by Chris HedgesThe Sound and the Fury by William Faulkner The Extended Phenotype by Richard DawkinsSmoke and Mirrors by Neil GaimanThe Selfish Gene by Richard DawkinsWhen Good Thinking Goes Bad by Todd C. RinioloHouse of Leaves by Mark Z. DanielewskiAmerican Gods: A Novel by Neil GaimanPrimates and Philosophers by Frans de WaalThe Enormous Room by E.E. CummingsThe Picture of Dorian Gray by Oscar WildeGod Is Not Great: How Religion Poisons Everything by Christopher HitchensThe Name of the Rose by Umberto Eco Dreams From My Father by Barack Obama Paradise Lost by John Milton Bad Money by Kevin PhillipsThe Secret Garden by Frances Hodgson BurnettGodless: How an Evangelical Preacher Became One of America's Leading Atheists by Dan BarkerThe Things They Carried by Tim O'BrienThe Limits of Power by Andrew BacevichLolita by Vladimir NabokovOrlando by Virginia Woolf On Being Certain by Robert A. Burton50 reasons people give for believing in a god by Guy P. HarrisonWalden: Or, Life in the Woods by Henry David ThoreauExile and the Kingdom by Albert CamusOur Inner Ape by Frans de WaalYour Inner Fish by Neil ShubinNo Country for Old Men by Cormac McCarthyThe Age of American Unreason by Susan JacobyTen Theories of Human Nature by Leslie Stevenson & David HabermanHeart of Darkness by Joseph ConradThe Stuff of Thought by Stephen PinkerA Thousand Splendid Suns by Khaled HosseiniThe Lucifer Effect by Philip ZimbardoResponsibility and Judgment by Hannah ArendtInterventions by Noam ChomskyGodless in America by George A. RickerReligious Expression and the American Constitution by Franklyn S. HaimanDeep Economy by Phil McKibbenThe God Delusion by Richard DawkinsThe Third Chimpanzee by Jared DiamondThe Woman in the Dunes by Abe KoboEvolution vs. Creationism by Eugenie C. ScottThe Omnivore's Dilemma by Michael PollanI, Claudius by Robert GravesBreaking The Spell by Daniel C. DennettA Peace to End All Peace by David FromkinThe Time Traveler's Wife by Audrey NiffeneggerThe End of Faith by Sam HarrisEnder's Game by Orson Scott CardThe Curious Incident of the Dog in the Night-Time by Mark HaddonValue and Virtue in a Godless Universe by Erik J. WielenbergThe March by E. L DoctorowThe Ethical Brain by Michael GazzanigaFreethinkers: A History of American Secularism by Susan JacobyCollapse: How Societies Choose to Fail or Succeed by Jared DiamondThe Battle for God by Karen ArmstrongThe Future of Life by Edward O. WilsonWhat is Good? by A. C. GraylingCivilization and Its Enemies by Lee HarrisPale Blue Dot by Carl SaganHow We Believe: Science, Skepticism, and the Search for God by Michael ShermerLooking for Spinoza by Antonio DamasioLies and the Lying Liars Who Tell Them by Al FrankenThe Red Queen by Matt RidleyThe Blank Slate by Stephen PinkerUnweaving the Rainbow by Richard DawkinsAtheism: A Reader edited by S.T. JoshiGlobal Brain by Howard BloomThe Lucifer Principle by Howard BloomGuns, Germs and Steel by Jared DiamondThe Demon-Haunted World by Carl SaganBury My Heart at Wounded Knee by Dee BrownFuture Shock by Alvin Toffler

OTHER PAGES WORTH EXPLORING
Banned Book ListOur Amazon.com SalesMassimo Pigliucci Rationally SpeakingOnline Reading GroupTop 10 Atheism BooksFACTS Book Selections

cron
Copyright © BookTalk.org 2002-2011. All rights reserved.
Website developed by MidnightCoder.ca
Display Pagerank