Welch gives up Korn, finds Jesus Former guitarist for the Bakersfield band found religion after being invited to a church service by a friend. Barry Lipson Issue date: 3/9/05
Upon entering Valley Bible Fellowship church on Feb 27, it was apparent this was not to be an ordinary service.
CNN, MTV, local media as well as tattooed and pierced teenagers piled alongside the usual religious types to bear witness as Brian "Head" Welch, former guitar player for the rock band Korn, whose hits include "Freak on a Leash" and "Blind," made his official departure from the limelight.
Welch, who is from Bakersfield, quit the band in order to devote his life to religion after a friend invited him to a service two months ago.
"I can't go to church, I just drank a six pack and yelled at my wife. I thought there is no way I am going to church. Then I read the good book at home," Welch said.
Another reason for leaving the band was to set a better example for his daughter. He felt music videos were making him look bad, and he has since decided to dedicate his music to Jesus Christ.
Senior Pastor Ron Vietti mentioned what it was like when he had a meeting with Welch at Romano's Macaroni Grill. "People saw us there and were thinking, 'Pastor Vietti and Korn? We don't get it.' Now we are brothers."
Just before Welch appeared at the first service, a man standing in front of a cross with a cell phone made an announcement that the crowd was being watched in Las Vegas. The crowd cheered and raised hands in lieu of flicking lighters.
After welcoming Welch to thunderous applause, Pastor Vietti asked Welch what life was like before he found God. Welch replied, "I thought I had it all. I got money, I got girls, I kept getting everything I thought when I was a kid was important. I was like, 'Wow, this is cool! I'm richer, richer, richer!' "
At the same time, Welch said he was sinking as a person. "I came to a point I didn't want to live." Even after being saved, Welch continued to use methamphetamine. "I came to church on drugs."
Referring to Pastor Vietti, Welch remarked, "This man serves God. Rehab can't cure it, AA can't cure it. I hit rock bottom. Once I came here (holding his bible), just like that."
Welch claims he is dedicated to helping kids and others.
"If a truck is coming, I'll push them out of the way," he said. "I'll take the hit. I don't care. I'll change this world or die trying."
Ashley Allen and Zac Lantz, both 19, drove 2,300 miles from Indiana to attend the service. Lantz said, "Thirty-three hours in a car. It was a long ride, but it was worth it." When Welch heard about their devotion, he jokingly responded, "I guess I owe you gas money."
When asked what he thought about Welch's service, Al Garza a regular at the church said, " I think he is doing real good. He'll be a good role model. This is not a traditional church. It is a come as you are church."
Jodi Gutierrez, a teenaged Korn fan, said she felt disappointed. "I don't understand. I thought he was happy. I thought it was all about the music. Whatever makes him happy.
BC student Damien Lomack said, "As long as he keeps singing, I'll support his decision." Another BC student, Kaitlyn Hulsey, said, "Korn had its purpose about five years ago. I respect his decision. It is not the most ridiculous reason to leave."
As a final thought, after the church service, Jarrett Bishop, another teen fan who sports a Korn tattoo on his leg, thought it was good. "He's got to do what he's got to do. I am a big fan and still support Korn."
On March 5, Welch was baptized in the Jordan River in Israel by Pastor Vietti.
Staff member Marilyn Whipkey contributed to this story.
_________________ “I think one of [James Hoffmeier’s] most important points is that we have unrealistic expectations for what archaeology can offer us as far as ‘proving’ Exodus: ‘After all, what evidence, short of an inscription in a Proto-Canaanite script stating “bricks made by Hebrew slaves” would be considered proof that the Israelites were in Egypt. Archaeology’s ability … is quite limited.’” Jeff Lambert, Editorial Associate, Biblical Archaeological Review. via email January 26, 2010 8:20:58 AM. [email receipiant redacted for privacy reasons. See Thread-The Bible's Buried Secrets for full text.]
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Re: The really BIG miracles of Jesus
What does this story have to do with anything?
It is a fact that people often are followers of ignorance… I see this as a statement of ignorant following than any kind of Jesus miracle.
And if you insist on defining this as a Jesus miracle, then wouldn’t every Christian that becomes an atheist (which there are more of) be a failing of Jesus?
Can god fail?
If not, how do you explain whole populations of people living happily without god?
In fact the very existence of atheists is strong evidence against god as defined by Christianity.
If god really loved us and wanted us to worship him he could make it so. According to Christians, god knows me better than I do, according to Christians god created me… and he created me to be skeptical, it is my nature…
If all of that is true he knows exactly what evidence I would require to accept him. It should be a simple matter for him to demonstrate himself to me in a way that I would accept. For him not to do this he would have to either not love me, or not care about my worship.
And don’t even get me started on the whole injustice of Hell… this is not a place that someone sends you if they love you…
Later
_________________ That which can be asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence.
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Re: The really BIG miracles of Jesus
I was very fortunate to find Scientology at a time in my life when everything was going downhill very fast. After attending to the first Scientology Seminar, I was able to turn things around. I now have a bright future ahead of me, I have a wonderful relationship with my fiancee, and the best job in the world at the Church of Scientology of Los Gatos. Thanks to Al Guerrero for introducing me to Scientology and thank you Ron for your wonderful technology.
A. Murillo - Los Gatos, CA
+ + +
After 14 months of suffering from a broken knee, unable to walk normally even after surgery due to constant pain, I had one Dianetics session and like a miracle the swelling disappeared before my eyes, the pain was gone and when I got up I was able to walk in a normal painless way. This happened in 1979, and for over 20 years I have a normal knee that bears a small scar, and feels like nothing ever happened.
M. Villegas - Miami, FL
+ + + The first miracle I witnessed using DIANETICS technology was in 1980 when I delivered a session to a 75 year old lady who had a chronic arthritis condition which got worse over the years. It got so bad that she was unable to walk. After her first session she stood up, forgot her cane and walked like a normal person!
My greatest gratitude to L. Ron Hubbard for giving me the knowledge and workable technology to help my fellow man.
A. Shatria - Miami, FL
Anecdotal success stories from life changing belief have no bearing on the truthfulness of the belief. Peoples lives have been changed by believing in UFO's. That ignorance can lead to bliss makes it no less foolish, because it also leads to bigotry and hate.
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Re: The really BIG miracles of Jesus
agreed.
emotionally charged conversion stories are in no way proof of any religion.
Unfortunately, dramatic emotionally charged stories are just the kind of things that stick in our heads. They are remembered on a more fundamental level than any graph or statistic, but that does not increase the merit of the point they make. I hope that was not meant as a modern example of a miracle.
about miracles.
There are two possible explanations.
1 the bible is a literal recording of history, and all events depicted are accurate.
2 The events in the bible are the product of the author’s imagination.
For scenario 1 to be true, there must be a supernatural being for which the natural laws are meaningless; anything is possible at any time, regardless of causation, logic, paradox, or self contradiction. That special entity performed feats of magic and broadcast its message into the heads of various prophets.
There is no evidence for this view other than the belief of the faithful and their studies on it. All work being traced back to one book, the legitimacy of which must be taken on faith.
Faith being an expectation about which there is no evidence, or the evidence runs contrary to the fulfillment of the expectation. (if there were evidence in support, we would call that confidence)
Scenario 2. We have a story which contains supernatural events. We see that these supernatural events cannot be duplicated now, except through trickery, technology, or movie effects.
What we do know is that humans have a long history of making up stories from their imaginations. We see it every day in all forms of media. We know that every single modern story which contains supernatural elements are invariably the work of someone’s imagination, and not a literal depiction of actual events.
We know that many other cultures and many other times have seen similar stories gather well-meaning true believers who are mislead into believing these fictional stories. (See all religions you disagree with.) We even have modern examples where the written record of their creation is well documented, such as Mormonism and scientology, which are obvious fraud, yet still command legions of well-meaning true believers who have been mislead.
It is obvious, given the two examples, where the bible fits.
To believe the first scenario requires a lack of empathy that is unfortunately epidemic in the human condition. Our story is correct, and nobody else could possibly be in the same boat as us. While we are willing to dismiss the true belief of millions of other people who believe stories which are just as believable (by being un-believable) as ours, discount their stories, we insist that ours is the only true, special case of magic come to life.
Again, what we are seeing is that fundamental conceit that people are unwilling to relinquish: That they are special. Of course no one should believe in Shinto…. But christianity’s magic is real. Of course there is no such thing as fairies… but angels are real.
Why? Because you believe it. Because you are special. Because magic can happen in your world. Because we are not simply animals. Because we are as immortal as we would like to be.
In order to believe the first scenario, you must lack a fundamental ability to see the world in perspective. To see yourself as a part of the world, not the center of it. We must drop our self-centered conceits about how fancy and special we are.
_________________ Have you tried that? Looking for answers? Or have you been content to be terrified of a thing you know nothing about?
Nowhere in the Bible does it state that the truth would be revealed through logic and evidence. -James Williamson MD
Science flies you to the moon. Religion flies you into buildings.
In the absence of God, I found Man. -Guillermo Del Torro
If you think education is expensive, try ignorance. -Derek Bok
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Re: The really BIG miracles of Jesus
Frank 013 wrote:
What does this story have to do with anything?
The title of the Thread is The really BIG miracles of Jesus. That opens the door for the introduction of supporting evidence. In that context I submit the above story. I suggest that if you wonder if it is truly a miracle you contact Brian Welch and ask him.
frank1o3 wrote:
It is a fact that people often are followers of ignorance… I see this as a statement of ignorant following than any kind of Jesus miracle.
Again, I refer you to Brian as I am not qualified to determine whether it is a miracle or not.
frank013 wrote:
And if you insist on defining this as a Jesus miracle, then wouldn’t every Christian that becomes an atheist (which there are more of) be a failing of Jesus?
What does a Christian 'losing' their faith have to do with Jesus? You are assuming that because a Christian later says they don't believe in God that God lost them? That person may be lost, for any number of reasons; becoming a Christian isn't the end of the process it is only a beginning. The journey is just beginning for a new believer. That journey will have period of closeness and distance from God. Times of passion and perhaps even of abandonment. But that is part of the journey of the individual. Throughout that journey God remains unchanged. The believer's relationship with God also remains unchanged from His perspective. Last year the Atheist Bus was supposed to come around and let people take a towel and unbaptize themselves. I never heard if it did that or not but I promise you that no towel or any other object or force in the universe can separate you from God once you have established that bond.
frank013 wrote:
Can god fail?
If not, how do you explain whole populations of people living happily without god?
In fact the very existence of atheists is strong evidence against god as defined by Christianity.
God loves people, even you. Just because you reject Him doesn't mean you are going to be miserable during your life.
Frank013 wrote:
If god really loved us and wanted us to worship him he could make it so. According to Christians, god knows me better than I do, according to Christians god created me… and he created me to be skeptical, it is my nature…
It's called free will. You have a choice to make. You may be skeptical but that does not prevent you from making a choice in His favor. He just won't force you to do it.
frank013 wrote:
If all of that is true he knows exactly what evidence I would require to accept him. It should be a simple matter for him to demonstrate himself to me in a way that I would accept. For him not to do this he would have to either not love me, or not care about my worship.
So Jesus dying on the cross isn't enough for Frank013. God has to do something more? Sorry, that's all any of us get.
frank013 wrote:
And don’t even get me started on the whole injustice of Hell… this is not a place that someone sends you if they love you…
Later
People are so obsessed with Heaven and Hell. Oh, it's so unfair of God to send non-believers to Hell. Really, they didn't want to have anything to do with Him when they were alive, why would He force them to spend eternity with Him. Hell is described a horrible, fires and all that stuff. For me, Hell is where God isn't. The fires and stuff may be real, maybe not, I don't know. What I do know is that if Hell is where God isn't the pain from not having Him around would be far worse than any fire or worms or anything else. God isn't sending you there. You are making your own choice. Forget about the fire and the worms and the stink and all of that. The reality is going to infinitely worse.
_________________ “I think one of [James Hoffmeier’s] most important points is that we have unrealistic expectations for what archaeology can offer us as far as ‘proving’ Exodus: ‘After all, what evidence, short of an inscription in a Proto-Canaanite script stating “bricks made by Hebrew slaves” would be considered proof that the Israelites were in Egypt. Archaeology’s ability … is quite limited.’” Jeff Lambert, Editorial Associate, Biblical Archaeological Review. via email January 26, 2010 8:20:58 AM. [email receipiant redacted for privacy reasons. See Thread-The Bible's Buried Secrets for full text.]
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Re: The really BIG miracles of Jesus
Stahrwe Those are totally off the shelf answers... and totally unconvincing.
By god exposing himself to me does not alter free will. However god hardening pharos’s heart does.
If god made me incapable of accepting claims and he will not give me the evidence that he knows I need to believe in him then it is a failing on his part… you make it sound like accepting a claim is as easy as saying “I believe that there is an African elephant in the passenger seat of my car.” But to really believe such a claim, it has to be shown as true… your religion makes outrageous claims but offers nothing credible as evidence. I cannot just believe these things… my nature requires more.
But as you say there is nothing more… there could be if god wanted it but there just isn’t.
We have to just believe in a guy that cannot be (even moderately) revealed as historical or burn in hell.
Sorry my friend… belief just does not work that way… and god would know that.
Later
_________________ That which can be asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence.
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Re: The really BIG miracles of Jesus
Frank 013 wrote:
Quote:
Star Burst How can something not written until 150 years after Christ is supposed to have died, and do not rest on any trustworthy testimony have even the slightest value as evidence he ever lived?
To a normal person using logic and common sense this is a huge problem, which is why it is said that the writers were guided by the Holy Spirit or other such nonsense.
The names of the particular gospels are made up as well; no one knows who wrote them so the names of Jesus' followers were added to give the text more credibility.
Of course these facts are not generally taught in church, so common Christians never hear about it and go on thinking that their faith is well backed up by historical events, which is totally false.
But what you are seeing from stahrwe is something else altogether… he has trouble, or refuses to accept, that some people (most people) do not hold the gospels as much of an authority on history (I do not hold them as an authority on anything) and that in that case he needs to use other evidence to support his religious claims. The failing here of course is that there are no other works that support his position, so he (like a broken record) keeps pulling his material, over and over, from the same place that he knows we find un-credible.
Yeah just like they don't hear all the lies either. I have said this before here but it bears repeating the authors of the NT wrote what they imagined not what they saw.
(1).Authorties rely upon the Four Gospels to prove Christ.(Proving the Bible with itself cannot be done!) (2).Know absolutely nothing of Matthew, Mark, Luke or John besides whats said of them in the Gospels. (3).Gospels do not claim to have been written by these men. They are not called the Gospels of Mark, or John or Luke or Matthew. (4).No one knows who wrote a single line of the Gospels.
The Encloypedia Biblica states that the order of events in the life of Christ as given to us by the Evangelists are contradictory and untrustworthy and that the chronological framework of the Gospels is worthless. In other words Mark, Luke, Matthew and John wrote not what they knew but only what they imagined.
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Re: The really BIG miracles of Jesus
Frank 013 wrote:
Stahrwe Those are totally off the shelf answers... and totally unconvincing.
Unconvincing? Perhaps. But not Totally unconvincing.
Off the Shelf answers? Hardly. The explanation of spiritual growth is a common explanation but my application of it to renouncers is new, at least I think it is.
Frank013 wrote:
By god exposing himself to me does not alter free will. However god hardening pharos’s heart does.
If you wish to address the Bible narrative regarding the hardening of Pharaoh's heart then we need to discuss same in the full context of the narrative. It is not acceptable for you to deny the use of the Bible to defend belief but then turn around and use the same Bible to attack. Your inclusion the interraction of God and Pharaoh demonstrates your lack of familiarity the the narrative.
frank013 wrote:
If god made me incapable of accepting claims and he will not give me the evidence that he knows I need to believe in him then it is a failing on his part… you make it sound like accepting a claim is as easy as saying “I believe that there is an African elephant in the passenger seat of my car.” But to really believe such a claim, it has to be shown as true… your religion makes outrageous claims but offers nothing credible as evidence. I cannot just believe these things… my nature requires more.
I swear I am back in the Garden of Eden with you as Adam. "Hey God, that woman you gave me was defective. If you had given me a perfect woman she wouldn't have talked me into doing something I knew was wrong all along. So you see God, I have no responsibility here. In fact, it's your fault!"
I would think it would be infinitely easier to believe that elephant is in your passenger's seat than to believe that load of garbage that it's all God's fault. Pathetic try.
frank013 wrote:
But as you say there is nothing more… there could be if god wanted it but there just isn’t.
More what? Try to explain Acts 15:1-35 without Jesus being involved.
frank013 wrote:
We have to just believe in a guy that cannot be (even moderately) revealed as historical or burn in hell.
Of course one can't show He existed historically, because you load the deck against it. You reject the written record because it is from biased witnesses, even though there is no legal basis for excluding it, then you make up rules for historicity which exclude any other evidence, and finally discount any non-Biblcal contemporary mentions of Jesus as either forgeries or additions by believers.
Frank013 wrote:
Sorry my friend… belief just does not work that way… and god would know that.
Later
I agree with you that God does not work by deluding people. The case against God is one of lies and trickery. Too bad you won't see it. I do not say can't see it.
_________________ “I think one of [James Hoffmeier’s] most important points is that we have unrealistic expectations for what archaeology can offer us as far as ‘proving’ Exodus: ‘After all, what evidence, short of an inscription in a Proto-Canaanite script stating “bricks made by Hebrew slaves” would be considered proof that the Israelites were in Egypt. Archaeology’s ability … is quite limited.’” Jeff Lambert, Editorial Associate, Biblical Archaeological Review. via email January 26, 2010 8:20:58 AM. [email receipiant redacted for privacy reasons. See Thread-The Bible's Buried Secrets for full text.]
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Re: The really BIG miracles of Jesus
stahrwe wrote
Quote:
Of course one can't show He existed historically, because you load the deck against it. You reject the written record because it is from biased witnesses, even though there is no legal basis for excluding it, then you make up rules for historicity which exclude any other evidence, and finally discount any non-Biblcal contemporary mentions of Jesus as either forgeries or additions by believers.
Quote:
Of course one can't show He existed historically, because you load the deck against it.
Stacking the deck agianst what? The deck was stacked when they made up this lie.
Quote:
You reject the written record because it is from biased witnesses
What witnesses? Not one of the writers of the gospel ever saw Jesus. Considering they were written some 150 years after his supposed death. Agian they wrote what they imagined not what they saw.
Quote:
then you make up rules for historicity which exclude any other evidence,
There is no rules to make up. He was a lie, a myth and not one person that was suppose to be a contemporary of him ever wrote about him.
Quote:
and finally discount any non-Biblcal contemporary mentions of Jesus as either forgeries or additions by believers.
[/quote]
What non Biblical evidence? Maybe if the christian fathers at the time had bothered not to destroy everything that would reveal their lie non Biblical evidence might exist. As such they cut their own throats.
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Re: The really BIG miracles of Jesus
johnson1010 wrote:
about miracles. There are two possible explanations. 1 the bible is a literal recording of history, and all events depicted are accurate. 2 The events in the bible are the product of the author’s imagination.
The reasons for imaginative stories such as the miracles of Christ can be analysed further. With your two explanations, literal readings are impossible while seeing such impossible Biblical events as the products of the author's imagination is necessarily true. Real interpretation then becomes the effort to explain the reasons behind the imaginative stories, ie why the authors sought to present fiction as fact. A probable reason is that the factual origins behind the stories were unacceptable to the mass audience of the time, while the fiction was a convenient way to package the fact.
As I have discussed earlier in this thread, possible interpretation requires a revision of theology away from the traditional supernatural theory of God to establish a natural vision. The Bible stories may be understood against a deeper vision of how human history sits against the cycles of nature, through the apparent movement of the universe in the observable cycles of the stars.
The Bible says that Jesus tells parables which conceal a deeper wisdom. If we consider the main story discussed in this thread, the miracle of the loaves and fishes, the imaginative story can be seen as a parable for an explanation of history, understood against the slow movement of the stars of the zodiac against the seasons, with the loaves and fishes marking the new age of Pisces. This interpretation provides a coherent and elegant reading of the Bible through a method that sets Christian myth within the framework of older mythology and objective astronomy.
As the stories evolved in the century after Christ, the plausible account (a historical messiah) won out over the real origin (a parable for the stars). It is easy to imagine a process of 'Chinese Whispers' gradually changing the original stories with each re-telling to eventually produce the imaginative visions that we have in the Gospels.
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Re: The really BIG miracles of Jesus
Robert Tulip wrote:
johnson1010 wrote:
about miracles. There are two possible explanations. 1 the bible is a literal recording of history, and all events depicted are accurate. 2 The events in the bible are the product of the author’s imagination.
The reasons for imaginative stories such as the miracles of Christ can be analysed further. With your two explanations, literal readings are impossible while seeing such impossible Biblical events as the products of the author's imagination is necessarily true. Real interpretation then becomes the effort to explain the reasons behind the imaginative stories, ie why the authors sought to present fiction as fact. A probable reason is that the factual origins behind the stories were unacceptable to the mass audience of the time, while the fiction was a convenient way to package the fact.
As I have discussed earlier in this thread, possible interpretation requires a revision of theology away from the traditional supernatural theory of God to establish a natural vision. The Bible stories may be understood against a deeper vision of how human history sits against the cycles of nature, through the apparent movement of the universe in the observable cycles of the stars.
The Bible says that Jesus tells parables which conceal a deeper wisdom. If we consider the main story discussed in this thread, the miracle of the loaves and fishes, the imaginative story can be seen as a parable for an explanation of history, understood against the slow movement of the stars of the zodiac against the seasons, with the loaves and fishes marking the new age of Pisces. This interpretation provides a coherent and elegant reading of the Bible through a method that sets Christian myth within the framework of older mythology and objective astronomy.
As the stories evolved in the century after Christ, the plausible account (a historical messiah) won out over the real origin (a parable for the stars). It is easy to imagine a process of 'Chinese Whispers' gradually changing the original stories with each re-telling to eventually produce the imaginative visions that we have in the Gospels.
Robert I agree with the second explanation as its the only one that makes sense. None of the NT writers were around at the time of jesus so they could only go on stories and rumors that they had heard from secondary sources which makes the writing hearsay at best. A further study of these parables will reveal a jesus did not say any of that stuff....
Quote:
This interpretation provides a coherent and elegant reading of the Bible through a method that sets Christian myth within the framework of older mythology and objective astronomy.
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Re: The really BIG miracles of Jesus
Star Burst wrote:
stahrwe wrote:
Of course one can't show He existed historically, because you load the deck against it. You reject the written record because it is from biased witnesses, even though there is no legal basis for excluding it, then you make up rules for historicity which exclude any other evidence, and finally discount any non-Biblcal contemporary mentions of Jesus as either forgeries or additions by believers.
Stacking the deck agianst what? The deck was stacked when they made up this lie.
stahrwe wrote:
]You reject the written record because it is from biased witnesses
What witnesses? Not one of the writers of the gospel ever saw Jesus. Considering they were written some 150 years after his supposed death. Agian they wrote what they imagined not what they saw.
There is one major flaw in the theory that the Gospels were not written until the second century AD. That flaw is that none of them mention the destruction of the Temple. The Temple was THE center of worship for the Jews and its destruction by Rome in 70 AD was a turning point in the religious life of the Jews. Additionally, the corresponding actions by Rome before, during and after the Temple's destruction drove the population including the flegdeling church from Jerusalem. If the Gospels had not been written until the second century, even had they contrived to avoid mentioning of the Temple's destruction in some plot to hide the date of their composition it is likely that the narrative would have betrayed some hint of their dispersion.
Once again, you have fallen victim to lies which you don't bother to examine because they neatly fit with your bias.
Quote:
Matthew The early church unanimously held that the gospel of Matthew was the first written gospel and was penned by the apostle of the same name (Matt. 10:2-4). Lately, the priority of Matthew as the first written gospel has come under suspicion with Mark being considered by many to be the first written gospel. The debate is far from over.
The historian Papias mentions that the gospel of Matthew was originally in Aramaic or Hebrew and attributes the gospel to Matthew the apostle.5
"Irenaeus (ca. A.D. 180) continued Papias's views about Matthew and Mark and added his belief that Luke, the follower of Paul, put down in a book the gospel preached by that apostle, and that John, the Beloved Disciple, published his Gospel while residing in Asia. By the time of Irenaeus, Acts was also linked with Luke, the companion of Paul."6 This would mean that if Matthew did write in Aramaic originally, that he may have used Mark as a map, adding and clarifying certain events as he remembered them. But, this is not known for sure.
The earliest quotation of Matthew is found in Ignatius who died around 115 A.D. Therefore, Matthew was in circulation well before Ignatius came on the scene. The various dates most widely held as possible writing dates of the Gospel are between A.D. 40 - 140. But Ignatius died around 115 A.D. and he quoted Matthew. Therefore Matthew had to be written before he died. Nevertheless, it is generally believed that Matthew was written before A.D. 70 and as early as A.D. 50.
then you make up rules for historicity which exclude any other evidence,
Star Burst wrote:
There is no rules to make up. He was a lie, a myth and not one person that was suppose to be a contemporary of him ever wrote about him.
See above. Matthew was a contemporary. Mark was a contemporary as were John and James. By the time Luke wrote so much was being written about Jesus that Luke felt the need to consolidate it.
Quote:
and finally discount any non-Biblcal contemporary mentions of Jesus as either forgeries or additions by believers.
[/quote]
Star Burst wrote:
What non Biblical evidence? Maybe if the christian fathers at the time had bothered not to destroy everything that would reveal their lie non Biblical evidence might exist. As such they cut their own throats.
So, what is your evidence? Conspiracy theories and wild speculation. What made the early church, composed of Jews, desire to open membership to gentiles, including Greeks?
What made the early church, composed of Jews, abandon more than a thousand years of dietary and Sabbath laws?
_________________ “I think one of [James Hoffmeier’s] most important points is that we have unrealistic expectations for what archaeology can offer us as far as ‘proving’ Exodus: ‘After all, what evidence, short of an inscription in a Proto-Canaanite script stating “bricks made by Hebrew slaves” would be considered proof that the Israelites were in Egypt. Archaeology’s ability … is quite limited.’” Jeff Lambert, Editorial Associate, Biblical Archaeological Review. via email January 26, 2010 8:20:58 AM. [email receipiant redacted for privacy reasons. See Thread-The Bible's Buried Secrets for full text.]
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Re: The really BIG miracles of Jesus
Robert Tulip wrote:
johnson1010 wrote:
about miracles. There are two possible explanations. 1 the bible is a literal recording of history, and all events depicted are accurate. 2 The events in the bible are the product of the author’s imagination.
The reasons for imaginative stories such as the miracles of Christ can be analysed further. With your two explanations, literal readings are impossible while seeing such impossible Biblical events as the products of the author's imagination is necessarily true. Real interpretation then becomes the effort to explain the reasons behind the imaginative stories, ie why the authors sought to present fiction as fact. A probable reason is that the factual origins behind the stories were unacceptable to the mass audience of the time, while the fiction was a convenient way to package the fact.
As I have discussed earlier in this thread, possible interpretation requires a revision of theology away from the traditional supernatural theory of God to establish a natural vision. The Bible stories may be understood against a deeper vision of how human history sits against the cycles of nature, through the apparent movement of the universe in the observable cycles of the stars.
The Bible says that Jesus tells parables which conceal a deeper wisdom. If we consider the main story discussed in this thread, the miracle of the loaves and fishes, the imaginative story can be seen as a parable for an explanation of history, understood against the slow movement of the stars of the zodiac against the seasons, with the loaves and fishes marking the new age of Pisces. This interpretation provides a coherent and elegant reading of the Bible through a method that sets Christian myth within the framework of older mythology and objective astronomy.
As the stories evolved in the century after Christ, the plausible account (a historical messiah) won out over the real origin (a parable for the stars). It is easy to imagine a process of 'Chinese Whispers' gradually changing the original stories with each re-telling to eventually produce the imaginative visions that we have in the Gospels.
If one works hard enough one can make a connection to anything, the old 7 degress of separation applied to the Bible. Too bad that the energy is wasted making connections which cannot be defended. The Bible contains few references to the constellations, and if anything seems to prefer to ignore them. To extract from the Gospels what was a 'lesser' miracle and construct a whole fiction around it is sad, especially as Jesus explains the miracle. One is reminded of the apocryphal quote attributed to Freud that, "Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar"
_________________ “I think one of [James Hoffmeier’s] most important points is that we have unrealistic expectations for what archaeology can offer us as far as ‘proving’ Exodus: ‘After all, what evidence, short of an inscription in a Proto-Canaanite script stating “bricks made by Hebrew slaves” would be considered proof that the Israelites were in Egypt. Archaeology’s ability … is quite limited.’” Jeff Lambert, Editorial Associate, Biblical Archaeological Review. via email January 26, 2010 8:20:58 AM. [email receipiant redacted for privacy reasons. See Thread-The Bible's Buried Secrets for full text.]
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Re: The really BIG miracles of Jesus
No lies here. There is absolutely no record of them period. Why did it not mention the Temple? Cause undoubtedly your gospel writers fail to copy that from the OT.
Quote:
The Temple was THE center of worship for the Jews and its destruction by Rome in 70 AD was a turning point in the religious life of the Jews.
For the Jews who do not recognize this copy cat saviour of christianity as being a so called messiah. Key word "turning" point of the Jews no where does it mention Christianity in a single sentence.
Mack Burton WHO WROTE THE NEW TESTAMENT? The Making of the Christian Myth HarperCollins SanFrancisco (1995)
Quote:
But equally important is attestation. When do the Gospels start to show up in the wider record of Christian writings? If Mark is as early as 70, and all four had been written by 100, why do none of the early Fathers—the author of 1 Clement, Ignatius, Polycarp, the author of the Epistle of Barnabas— writing between 90 and 130, quote or refer to any of them? How could Ignatius (around 107), so eager to convince his readers that Jesus had indeed been born of Mary and died under Pilate, that he had truly been a human man who suffered, how could he have failed to appeal to some Gospel account as verification of all this if he had known one?
Its odd, really odd that out of all these famous people no one knows anything about these Gospels that were not even written by the men with the title on them because none of them say the gospel of John, Luke, Mark etc... fact is christianity had to suppress and destroy Gnosticism to keep their little lie a secret... relying on the Gospel of Thomas and the Didache. Yet they still failed to cover their tracks in that they completely forgot to forge a child hood for him none of these gospel writers even knew him and none of them could keep their lies straight.
The myth that is Christianity will no doubt live on even if this so called saviour is revealed a fake which in my opinion he is a fake. Made up of various other gods and demigods drawn from past cultures. But the pulpit pimps continue to draw in millions every day suckering in the sheeples with this fake facade they call a saviour that was never anything more than a made up character.
Last edited by Azrael on Tue Sep 14, 2010 3:59 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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