The Price of Atheism (YouTube)

DWill · Posted: Wed Apr 30, 2008 8:55 pm Post subject:

Lawrence,
Can anyone be forced to believe something?
DWill

Lawrence · Posted: Thu May 01, 2008 8:10 am Post subject: DWill

No. Force can cause a person to succumb but not believe.

Sir Thomas Moore lost his head for telling Henry VIII he had the power to declare himself head of the church but he did not have the right to tell an Englishman that he had to believe Henry VIII was head of the church.
The Roman Catholic Church twisted the event and declared Thomas a saint for defending the church.

However, I consider deception a force and we know propaganda and lies will cause someone to believe something they might not believe if they had truthful facts.

I have responded to your question with a yes and no. Many answers require qualification but are still accurate answers. L

Lawrence · Posted: Thu May 01, 2008 9:20 am Post subject: DWii

I forgot to mention the book which establishes to my satisfaction that force can not produce belief. The book is also one of my favorites. Man's Search for Meaning by Viktor E. Frankl

DWill · Posted: Thu May 01, 2008 10:18 am Post subject:

Of course, "choosing one's attitude in any set of circumstances" will probably always require that one be able to repel attempts to propagandize and deceive. Therefore even these tactics do not constitute force. But they might be said to work a fair amount of the time, I can't deny that.

Even so, in general I think I favor a concept of complicity more than the exertion of centralized power, when we talk about how belief systems are created and gain adherents. In most cases, I think people willingly or even eagerly join in, and even have much to do with the belief systems that result. I don't see such a bright line between "people" and powers that control beliefs. But I can't prove this.

Your view does seem to be heavily weighted toward the powers.
DWill

Lawrence · Posted: Thu May 01, 2008 10:46 am Post subject: DWII

Penelope · Posted: Thu May 01, 2008 11:44 am Post subject:

Lawrence:

I quote again our Bishop of Chester, England, in this month's local Parish Magazine:-

Lawrence · Posted: Thu May 01, 2008 12:17 pm Post subject: penelope

Penelope,
Please answer three questions. I will be better able to respond appropriately if you do.
1. What did the Bishop's quoted remarks mean to you?
2. What exactly did you want me to understand from them?
3. Did you read my chapter 4 concerning love?

I really appreciate your thinking of me and my essay. I am into the rewrite process and no one knows better than me how much my writing needs the gentleing of a lady's touch. L

Penelope · Posted: Thu May 01, 2008 3:47 pm Post subject:

Dear Lawrence. I am so sorry for causing you bewilderment. This is what happened.

I came home from work this afternoon and our Parish Magazine had been delivered and I sat down to have a drink and a quick peruse of it.

Well, although I haven't been to our village church for over a year, I used to be a regular attender and still get the magazine. When I was reading it I got an awful shock when I read of the death of a very dear man who lives just up the road from me and who was a sidesman at the Church.

He died in March and I did not know. He was ten years younger than me so it was a shock. I felt terribly distraught and was fighting back the tears. I rang his wife and left a message of condolence and when she rang back, I said, I would have been at his funeral if I had known and she so kindly said, ' I know you would Pen' - and that made me really cry.

Anyway - in the same magazine was this excerpt in a letter from our Bishop and I don't know why I thought you might like it. So I posted it on the end of your last post......not actually referring to what you had written.

I suppose I felt the need to keep in touch with like-minded people whist we still have the chance.

Sorry Lawrence - (actually - I am now having a little smile to myself - at this 'lady's touch' causing you such puzzlement). Smile

Lawrence · Posted: Thu May 01, 2008 4:27 pm Post subject: Dear Penelope

I am honored you consider me like minded with you. I think I used to be as tender hearted as you but I didn't respond to the trials of life, I fought. Fighting caused my spirit to harden. Marine fighter pilot, trial lawyer (barrister to you), corporate exec are just some escapades of my misspent youth. Now I'll respond and in love.

Penelope · Posted: Thu May 01, 2008 5:09 pm Post subject:

No, No Lawrence...your words are not tedious.

It is a privilidge to be in conversation with you whilst you formulate your words.

But, sometimes I am ready to read and study.....and that is what your essay needs.....study....it can't just be scanned and glossed over. There is nothing wrong with your words.....it s the subject that needs to be read, digested and assimilated...like food.

Our brains are like computers....what we feed into them is what affects our functioning in our lives.

But sometimes....I just need to read and listen and watch and do things for fun.......only sometimes am I able (or inclined) to concentrate enough to study profundities. When I am ready...I seem to be able to soak up information like a sponge......if I am not ready...then I might as well be trying to read Chinese. It is not to do with your essay....but my mental state.

Be assured, I know I am not alone in appreciate your work, and your words will be read and will have an effect.

Thank you.

Lawrence · Posted: Thu May 01, 2008 8:49 pm Post subject: dearest penelope

I hear you and I understand. Be at peace. I will continue to try to make my essay easier to read and understand. Lawrence

DWill · Posted: Thu May 01, 2008 10:53 pm Post subject:

No, you're not wearing me out. I think children are indeed more vulnerable to community pressure. It seems that your view is that most adults are, too, except the few who realize they can decide to be free. What I might like you to comment on is whether you see a wellspring of religious feeling as being common in humans. I don't mean that all humans have this in equal measure or even at all. I am not religious, for example, but I recognize that most of the people around me are, in the sense that they conceive a god that has some cognizance of them. This cannot be due to their being swayed or brainwashed by dogma; we're not talking about theology in any specific sense. Anyone might say their belief is a delusion, but my point here would be that, if so, it is their delusion. It is not foisted upon them but arises in them and then usually is nurtured or strengthened by an established religious tradition. But it is not created or commanded by that tradition as a general rule. The beliefs that people developed created the tradition, after all.

Do you distinguish between dogma and belief, by the way?

One of these days, I mean to look onto William James' The Variety of Religious Experience. I know he says a lot about what I am groping around for. My concern in the matter you have taken up is giving proper emphasis and achieving the correct perspective. But just as you ask your readers to do, please tell me if I'm not making sense to you. Thanks.
DWill

Lawrence · Posted: Fri May 02, 2008 8:28 am Post subject: DWii

Saffron · Posted: Fri May 02, 2008 10:47 am Post subject: Re: DWII

[quote="lawrenceindestin"][quote]
George Orwell and I respectfully disagree with you.


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