The Price of Atheism (YouTube)

Lawrence · Posted: Thu Mar 27, 2008 10:49 am Post subject:

Thank you Mr. P.
In Chapter 2 of my essay I write:

Mr. Pessimistic · Posted: Thu Mar 27, 2008 11:40 am Post subject:

Lawrence · Posted: Thu Mar 27, 2008 1:54 pm Post subject:

Thank you Mr. P. Well stated. Chris my oppology.
I am presuming you all have read my blog. You all are not deliniating the difference in belief about finite matters and infinite matters. When it comes to infinite matters, i.e., is there a god? One person's opinion is as good as the next. There can be no imperical proof to establish such a belief as a fact.
When it comes to finite matters, i.e., this world we live in and experience, because of our individual uniqueness, each person forms his/her own opinion about what is their reality. The three of you seem to think there is some primordial reason that we all must agree about what our finite reality is. The blur in your thinking that I see, is that you presume there is order of human reasoning which determines what reality should be declared "true" for others, or all, to follow. That is as monstrous as what organized religion has done to infinite beliefs.
Mr. P. you mentioned belief that sex with minors would make it OK. I believe you are blurring (and you said you haven't read my blog), the fact that we cannot revise our social values until we unmask the leaders of organized religion and their dogma for the mischief they have caused in using political power to have their morals for social conduct incorporated into law. The second part of my thesis is that you can not use force to impose your will on another. Governments cannot exist without the use of force. Once we seperate beliefs from our reality, I hope the people would reevaluate the social norms reflected in our laws. Mr. P., you might read Chapter 3 of my blog. I address societies whole concept of male/female to be almost hopelessly twisted by the religious declaration that the identity of male or female is determined by genitalia.

Well, there is no doubt I've asked for this. I'm not wearing out yet, how you doing? Lawrence

Lawrence · Posted: Thu Mar 27, 2008 3:57 pm Post subject:

I just finished sending an email to Dr. VanSwaay. It might clarify why I'm writing my essay. It is the only thing I know to do.

DWill · Posted: Tue Apr 29, 2008 9:40 pm Post subject:

Lawrence, to be honest, I didn't get from your essay that you think no one's beliefs (at least about the "infinite") should be challenged. You seemed, at least at times, agitated by what you saw as irrational beliefs. You're saying now that everyone's beliefs should be accepted, to avoid the terrible scourges that have occurred when believers of one stripe decided that believers of another did not have a right to their own beliefs. If I'm not distorting your view, sort of live-and-let-live, I have a hard time disagreeing with you. But, as nice as it might feel to let others operate without interference, believing whatever they want to, I wonder if as a practical matter, we can do this. You center on individuals only, but belief is often not individual but corporate. These corporate beliefs create mass movements which can threaten, and so sometimes need to be opposed. Unfortunately, many beliefs we humans come up with serve to put our own group on the top of the heap. They aren't just "personal." I fully endorse your sentiment, though: " Be kind, everyone is fighting a great battle."
About the kind of testing through reason that Chris and Frank say can be done regarding beliefs, I agree that it is perverse to willfully exclude reasoned examination. The examples Chris gives are obvious to make his point. But aren't there still statements of what one might call faith that reason cannot touch? These might involve no gross physical impossibilities, yet be unprovable. These can't by that criterion be wrong, though, can they? The belief in some sort of afterlife is an example. Seems preposterous to me, but I can't prove to anyone that it doesn't exist. Even the innocent-sounding generalization "People are basically good" can't be proved. Frank or Chris might sort this out for me.
I have to say I was shocked to read in "The End of Faith" that the author apparently believes in reincarnation. This after so many chapters of vehement denunciation of ignorance (well done). How can he ask that we reserve respect for his irrational beliefs?

DWill

Lawrence · Posted: Wed Apr 30, 2008 4:36 pm Post subject: reply to Dwii

DWill · Posted: Wed Apr 30, 2008 8:55 pm Post subject:

Lawrence,
Can anyone be forced to believe something?
DWill

Lawrence · Posted: Thu May 01, 2008 8:10 am Post subject: DWill

No. Force can cause a person to succumb but not believe.

Sir Thomas Moore lost his head for telling Henry VIII he had the power to declare himself head of the church but he did not have the right to tell an Englishman that he had to believe Henry VIII was head of the church.
The Roman Catholic Church twisted the event and declared Thomas a saint for defending the church.

However, I consider deception a force and we know propaganda and lies will cause someone to believe something they might not believe if they had truthful facts.

I have responded to your question with a yes and no. Many answers require qualification but are still accurate answers. L

Lawrence · Posted: Thu May 01, 2008 9:20 am Post subject: DWii

I forgot to mention the book which establishes to my satisfaction that force can not produce belief. The book is also one of my favorites. Man's Search for Meaning by Viktor E. Frankl

DWill · Posted: Thu May 01, 2008 10:18 am Post subject:

Of course, "choosing one's attitude in any set of circumstances" will probably always require that one be able to repel attempts to propagandize and deceive. Therefore even these tactics do not constitute force. But they might be said to work a fair amount of the time, I can't deny that.

Even so, in general I think I favor a concept of complicity more than the exertion of centralized power, when we talk about how belief systems are created and gain adherents. In most cases, I think people willingly or even eagerly join in, and even have much to do with the belief systems that result. I don't see such a bright line between "people" and powers that control beliefs. But I can't prove this.

Your view does seem to be heavily weighted toward the powers.
DWill


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