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Re: The Jesus Myth
Quote:
But I can't help thinking and have noticed that at parties etc lots of folk tell me they believe in evolution but their only basis for this belief is that they were told about it in school so they just believe what they are told.
There is a hypothetical pyramid of evidence starting at the lowest level with evidence clear for you or I to see in person. Reading Darwin's book wouldn't give you much information as to what evolution is. The current theory is drastically different from what it was in Darwin's time. When you say it's only a theory, do you realize there is nothing above a theory? A theory is as high as the ladder goes in science. However, theories have varying levels of evidence supporting them, depending on the theory. Evolution has so much evidence, that it is considered, and called, a fact. There is as much evidence for evolution as there is that the sun will rise tomorrow.
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Re: The Jesus Myth
Eyebrowse wrote:
bleachededen wrote:
Eyebrowse wrote:
I think you might benefit from looking up definitions before making definitive statements about things you don't seem to know very much about.
"There are only two kinds of people who are really fascinating - people who know absolutely everything, and people who know absolutely nothing."
Oscar Wilde (1854 - 1900) Playwright & Wit
"Against stupidity, the gods themselves contend in vain." -Friedrich Schiller, writer and philosopher
We can play the "who has the best quotes" game, but this is not the topic for it, nor do I wish to "match wits" with you. I've said to you in every post what needs to be said in order to clarify where you are misguided and could stand to learn some new information, but I have no need to play games. I'm going to leave this topic to the people who are actually discussing what is relevant to it.
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Re: The Jesus Myth
Quote:
Ahem, ahem, I'm not a great believer in the story of the bible as fact but neither do I believe in evolution as a fact either. To me it's a theory and a theory isn't a fact I feel ?
You seem to be using the word theory as it is used in every day language. People say they have a theory about who is stealing the donuts out of the break room when what they mean is they have a wild guess.
Scientific theories are not just a wild guess. As was pointed out in a previous post, A person has a hypothesis (educated guess, already better than the "theory" of who is stealing donuts), where they have observed a phenomena and are hazarding a plausible explanation for that event. They formulate an experiment that would be able to dis-prove that hypothesis.
In other words, if the experiment does not get the results they predict ahead of time then the hypothesis is incorrect, and they start over with a different idea.
Only after many hundreds, or thousands of experiments are run, by just as many teams of different scientists all confirming the hypothesis, is it considered a scientific theory. Do you begin to see the difference? Scientific theories are vetted by thousands of peers and they have withstood countless experiments, coming out correct each and every time, to earn the title of Theory.
Quote:
May I just say in my layman type of view that most of my life I haven't cared either way, I've always been dead happy to sit on the fence on this issue.
But it is not a topic which should be viewed with apathy. There is a crucial distinction to be made here. Do you believe it is possible for a thing to jump out of the primordial blackness of non-existence, fully formed, and to be a modern day human? Born from the bowls of Jupiter, set on a flat world to rule and profane at our leisure by divine right?
or
Are we just another species on this planet, sprung from the same roots that yielded viruses, worms, whales and frogs. Through a slow and deliberate process of rinse and repeat.
Quote:
But I can't help thinking and have noticed that at parties etc lots of folk tell me they believe in evolution but their only basis for this belief is that they were told about it in school so they just believe what they are told.
Evolution can be seen all around you. Mind you, what is it, really, that evolution is saying? The merger of two life-forms, through the swap of genetic material, results in a combination of the two creatures that resembles the parents, yet is different from either one of them. Over time, these differences can amount to drastic changes from generation 1 to generation one million.
Where can we see this at work? Over the last few hundred years humans have influenced the evolution of our dogs to form very specific breeds. The Boston Terrier did not exist before Europeans came to America. That dog species was cultivated by breeding dogs together which possessed the desired traits. The pressure at work on genetics of this dog breeding is the human selection of short-nosed dogs. Without our intervention, it would not be how a dog looks, but rather how it performs which dictates which set of genes gets to reproduce, and which do not.
Humans were deliberately applying the selective pressure on these animals to reach specific results. The process is accelerated and survival of the fittest is not the prime mover in the equation, but the same principles are being applied when you breed a dog down from a poodle to a mini poodle, as when the Galapagos birds developed larger or smaller beaks for different food stuffs.
Quote:
I kinda feel you should at least have read Darwins book from start to finish to be able to say with anyauthority wether you think it's true or not. Most people have never even seen a copy of the book ?
Darwin knew, literally, only the first thing about evolution. Since then the theory has been refined and observed by hundreds of thousands of scientists. If Darwin were suddenly back in the mix, he would not be an authority on evolution. Too much progress.
The wright brothers were the first to fly, that doesn't mean their data should be consulted when you are engineering a space shuttle.
In any event, evolution is not a difficult idea to grasp. Children are like their parents, but different. Over long periods of time, with pressure applied to selection of mates, great x 100 grand children can look like significantly different creatures.
Easy examples are domesticated animals, as we have them in our possession to observe, and we were trying to get specific results with them, and those results were reached.
_________________ Have you tried that? Looking for answers? Or have you been content to be terrified of a thing you know nothing about?
Nowhere in the Bible does it state that the truth would be revealed through logic and evidence. -James Williamson MD
Science flies you to the moon. Religion flies you into buildings.
In the absence of God, I found Man. -Guillermo Del Torro
If you think education is expensive, try ignorance. -Derek Bok
You wouldn't like me when i'm angry... Because I always back up my rage with facts and documented sources. -The Credible Hulk
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Re: The Jesus Myth
johnson1010 wrote:
It is clearly a work of fiction.
It recounts stories of supernatural events which do not occur. Coroborating "evidence" tends to be different portions of the same book used to support eachother, or scholars of this fictional book and their interpretations of it.
Why does religion require faith? Because it doesnt make any sense. Because it asks you to believe fantastic things which plainly do not occur. Because there is no substantial evidence in support of its claims. And because even a limited foray into critical thinking usually destroys religious belief.
We want to be accurate about the thing we're talking about, too, though, even if it's a thing we don't like. My point here would be that the Bible, whatever we can say about its other qualities, consists of a bunch of different types of narratives, from different historical periods, assembled by different groups apparently--all of that making it doubtful that we can characterize it in a single stroke. Kristen Swenson, in the just-issued Bible Babel, called the Bible a giant wiki project. That may not be an apt analogy in all respects, but it does capture the collaborative, collage-like composition process used for the Bible. The worst offense that literalism commits is to assert that the Bible is a single-author book (by God of course) just as War and Peace was written by one man. It's one step down, but still unsupportable, to say that the Bible was written by people, but they were directed by God, so it has to be infallible.
But the point I started with is that Bible contains stuff that is clearly mythological or fabulous, stuff that has the quality of legend (such as the great forefathers living for 900 years), parts that are at least quasi-historical (maybe in a way similar to Shakespeare's history plays), and parts that I would call fictional or novelistic but in a largely realistic mode. I was going through the Abraham-Isaac-Jacob-Joseph stories and noting the psychological detail and sublety of those sections. To call these fictional is in this case to praise them. They do what great fiction often does--which is to dissect human emotions in a specific cultural context.
I feel lucky not to have to be concerned with the whole "is it true?" question as I read the bible. I also feel lucky that I'm not reading the Koran. Now that is a monotonous read!
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Re: The Jesus Myth
bleachededen wrote:
I am in no way capable to contribute to this argument between you and Interbane, Starhwe, but I would like to point out that Revelation isn't considered part of the Bible and is considered by most scholars, both religious and secular, to be completely fraudulent. With the exception of fundamentalists and evangelicals, most sects of Christianity do not include it in their teachings and worship.
Are you serious? Can you cite a Bible printed by any other than a fringe group which excludes Revelation? Are you perhaps thinking of a different book? I am also not aware of any let alone 'most' scholars who consider Revelation to be fraudulent. Please cite some.
Thank you
Wikipedia includes the following information.
"Canonical history Due to its obscure nature, Martin Luther initially considered Revelation to be "neither apostolic nor prophetic" and stated that "Christ is neither taught nor known in it",[20] and placed it in his Antilegomena, i.e. his list of questionable documents. (He developed a more positive view of Revelation as he grew older, however.) John Calvin believed the book to be canonical, yet it was the only New Testament book on which he did not write a commentary.[21] In the fourth century, Gregory of Nazianzus and other bishops argued against including Revelation in the New Testament canon, chiefly because of the difficulties of interpreting it and the risk of abuse. Christians in Syria also rejected it because Montanism, a second century sect which was deemed to be heretical by the mainstream church, relied heavily on it.[22] Ultimately it was included in the canon though it remains the only book of the New Testament that is not read within the Divine Liturgy of the Eastern Orthodox Church. Notwithstanding these objections, the Revelation provides a logical conclusion, not just to the New Testament, but to the Bible as a whole, and there is a continuous tradition dating back to the second century which supports the authenticity of the document, and which indicates that it was included within the, as yet unformalized, canon of the early church." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Book_of_Revelation
_________________ “I think one of [James Hoffmeier’s] most important points is that we have unrealistic expectations for what archaeology can offer us as far as ‘proving’ Exodus: ‘After all, what evidence, short of an inscription in a Proto-Canaanite script stating “bricks made by Hebrew slaves” would be considered proof that the Israelites were in Egypt. Archaeology’s ability … is quite limited.’” Jeff Lambert, Editorial Associate, Biblical Archaeological Review. via email January 26, 2010 8:20:58 AM. [email receipiant redacted for privacy reasons. See Thread-The Bible's Buried Secrets for full text.]
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Re: The Jesus Myth
DWill wrote:
johnson1010 wrote:
It is clearly a work of fiction.
It recounts stories of supernatural events which do not occur. Coroborating "evidence" tends to be different portions of the same book used to support eachother, or scholars of this fictional book and their interpretations of it.
Why does religion require faith? Because it doesnt make any sense. Because it asks you to believe fantastic things which plainly do not occur. Because there is no substantial evidence in support of its claims. And because even a limited foray into critical thinking usually destroys religious belief.
We want to be accurate about the thing we're talking about, too, though, even if it's a thing we don't like. My point here would be that the Bible, whatever we can say about its other qualities, consists of a bunch of different types of narratives, from different historical periods, assembled by different groups apparently--all of that making it doubtful that we can characterize it in a single stroke. Kristen Swenson, in the just-issued Bible Babel, called the Bible a giant wiki project. That may not be an apt analogy in all respects, but it does capture the collaborative, collage-like composition process used for the Bible. The worst offense that literalism commits is to assert that the Bible is a single-author book (by God of course) just as War and Peace was written by one man. It's one step down, but still unsupportable, to say that the Bible was written by people, but they were directed by God, so it has to be infallible.
But the point I started with is that Bible contains stuff that is clearly mythological or fabulous, stuff that has the quality of legend (such as the great forefathers living for 900 years), parts that are at least quasi-historical (maybe in a way similar to Shakespeare's history plays), and parts that I would call fictional or novelistic but in a largely realistic mode. I was going through the Abraham-Isaac-Jacob-Joseph stories and noting the psychological detail and sublety of those sections. To call these fictional is in this case to praise them. They do what great fiction often does--which is to dissect human emotions in a specific cultural context.
I feel lucky not to have to be concerned with the whole "is it true?" question as I read the bible. I also feel lucky that I'm not reading the Koran. Now that is a monotonous read!
Just a few points and clarifications:
#1, I thanked your post. A thanks does not mean I agree with everything in it, but I appreciate some parts of your or any post I thank.
#2, Before I buy a Bible related book, I generally check it out to see what I can discern about the author and therefore the tone of the book. I tend to buy and read books by conservative Biblical scholars though my purchases are fewer these days. There is an inherent problem with this; that one only gets a point of view which agrees with one's prejudices. I do sometimes read outside my comfort level, I used to do more of that when I was younger too. But in both cases I have discovered that I am not reading anything new. Most books, on both sides of the Biblical interpretation fence repeat the same things. I rarely encounter anything fresh. That being said, I would encourage BT members to expand your reading outside your comfort zone. Bible Babel does look interesting and I may spring for a copy.
_________________ “I think one of [James Hoffmeier’s] most important points is that we have unrealistic expectations for what archaeology can offer us as far as ‘proving’ Exodus: ‘After all, what evidence, short of an inscription in a Proto-Canaanite script stating “bricks made by Hebrew slaves” would be considered proof that the Israelites were in Egypt. Archaeology’s ability … is quite limited.’” Jeff Lambert, Editorial Associate, Biblical Archaeological Review. via email January 26, 2010 8:20:58 AM. [email receipiant redacted for privacy reasons. See Thread-The Bible's Buried Secrets for full text.]
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Re: The Jesus Myth
Adam and Eve can't be real, they never existed.It is not true.Of course they are real.If they are not then what about you and me? I mean how human came to the world.You think that Darwin's theory is true.But it is not.If man come from monkey then why monkey exist at present?
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Re: The Jesus Myth
angelarichard25 wrote:
Adam and Eve can't be real, they never existed.It is not true.Of course they are real.If they are not then what about you and me? I mean how human came to the world.You think that Darwin's theory is true.But it is not.If man come from monkey then why monkey exist at present?
The evidence for evolution is absolutely overwhelming. Unfortunately, there are a lot of folks out there who are fairly ignorant about science and who will deny evolution because it conflicts with the religious beliefs they have been taught since they were children.
By the way, Booktalk doesn't charge for spaces (as in spaces between words).
_________________ -Geo Who Knows Only His Own Generation Remains Always a Child Cicero, Orator 120
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Re: The Jesus Myth
bleachededen wrote:
. . . . Revelation isn't considered part of the Bible and is considered by most scholars, both religious and secular, to be completely fraudulent. With the exception of fundamentalists and evangelicals, most sects of Christianity do not include it in their teachings and worship.
Could you be thinking of The Apocrypha? As for it being fraudulent, it was written by the same kinds of dudes who wrote the rest of the New Testament. Only the early church mythologists decided which books were "divinely inspired" and which were not. The Apocrypha didn't get enough votes!
Taking into account that mere fallible humans got to decide which books were "divinely inspired" or not, one could argue that all of the books are fraudulent!
_________________ -Geo Who Knows Only His Own Generation Remains Always a Child Cicero, Orator 120
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Re: The Jesus Myth
geo wrote:
angelarichard25 wrote:
Adam and Eve can't be real, they never existed.It is not true.Of course they are real.If they are not then what about you and me? I mean how human came to the world.You think that Darwin's theory is true.But it is not.If man come from monkey then why monkey exist at present?
The evidence for evolution is absolutely overwhelming. Unfortunately, there are a lot of folks out there who are fairly ignorant about science and who will deny evolution because it conflicts with the religious beliefs they have been taught since they were children.
By the way, Booktalk doesn't charge for spaces (as in spaces between words).
And there are people like me who are not so ignorant of science who deny evolution because it defies sceintific priciples.
Angelrichard, you might want to come over to the Bible discussion pages, at least for awhile. We started with Genesis.
_________________ “I think one of [James Hoffmeier’s] most important points is that we have unrealistic expectations for what archaeology can offer us as far as ‘proving’ Exodus: ‘After all, what evidence, short of an inscription in a Proto-Canaanite script stating “bricks made by Hebrew slaves” would be considered proof that the Israelites were in Egypt. Archaeology’s ability … is quite limited.’” Jeff Lambert, Editorial Associate, Biblical Archaeological Review. via email January 26, 2010 8:20:58 AM. [email receipiant redacted for privacy reasons. See Thread-The Bible's Buried Secrets for full text.]
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Re: The Jesus Myth
stahrwe wrote:
And there are people like me who are not so ignorant of science who deny evolution because it defies sceintific priciples.
I very definitely don't want to know why you think "evolution denies scientific principles" because a) you are the most anti-science person I have ever talked to and b) due to your religious beliefs you are completely unreliable—you actually believe the earth is 8,000 years old! and c) your thoughts aren't even your own. You just regurgitate Creationist crap you get from your church or off the web.
_________________ -Geo Who Knows Only His Own Generation Remains Always a Child Cicero, Orator 120
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Re: The Jesus Myth
Quote:
angelarichard25 wrote: Adam and Eve can't be real, they never existed.It is not true.Of course they are real.If they are not then what about you and me? I mean how human came to the world.You think that Darwin's theory is true.But it is not.If man come from monkey then why monkey exist at present?
No Adam and Eve are not real. That is ridiculous. Putting aside the "everything else" that is wrong with the story of Adam and Eve, what about inbreeding? Their kids would have been horrifying genetic monsters in just a few generations.
There seems to be some notion that evolution works by a chimp physically transforming into a human. That isn’t how it works. Chimps didn’t turn into humans. Humans did not even evolve from chimps. Chimps are just as evolved as we are, just in a different way. Chimps, Humans and Bonobo's all evolved from a common ancestor.
We are all equally evolved, but we are evolved in different ways. Humans are not at the pinnacle of the evolutionary tree with our primate cousins below us.
Evolution takes place to fill new niches and to exploit vacant positions in the sere. Birds with beaks for cracking nuts do not compete with birds who have long beaks to ferret out insects in hidey holes. Though they are both finches, one evolves from the other and they both fill different roles in the environment.
People fill different roles in the environment than Chimps. Chimps fill different roles than gorillas. Lemurs fill different roles than baboons.
Do you deny that dog species originate from other dog species? Why then are there still British bull dogs when there is the newer strain of French bull dog?
Quote:
And there are people like me who are not so ignorant of science who deny evolution because it defies sceintific priciples.
Star, you are deluded if you think you are going to regale us all with your encyclopedic knowledge of scientific principles. As was indicated, you have zero credibility on the subject. Judging from your posts, I would hardly trust you to put together a science fair volcano without invoking god to try to understand it.
_________________ Have you tried that? Looking for answers? Or have you been content to be terrified of a thing you know nothing about?
Nowhere in the Bible does it state that the truth would be revealed through logic and evidence. -James Williamson MD
Science flies you to the moon. Religion flies you into buildings.
In the absence of God, I found Man. -Guillermo Del Torro
If you think education is expensive, try ignorance. -Derek Bok
You wouldn't like me when i'm angry... Because I always back up my rage with facts and documented sources. -The Credible Hulk
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Re: The Jesus Myth
geo wrote:
bleachededen wrote:
. . . . Revelation isn't considered part of the Bible and is considered by most scholars, both religious and secular, to be completely fraudulent. With the exception of fundamentalists and evangelicals, most sects of Christianity do not include it in their teachings and worship.
Could you be thinking of The Apocrypha? As for it being fraudulent, it was written by the same kinds of dudes who wrote the rest of the New Testament. Only the early church mythologists decided which books were "divinely inspired" and which were not. The Apocrypha didn't get enough votes!
Taking into account that mere fallible humans got to decide which books were "divinely inspired" or not, one could argue that all of the books are fraudulent!
Considering I don't believe the Bible was written by God and was written by a series of authors over a long ranging time span, you could safely say that I do consider all of the books to be fraudulent. They are good moral fables, but not a history of human existence. I don't need to know that Jesus existed or not, because it wouldn't change the fact that I don't agree with the teachings of any form of religion (even Judaism, which I grew up with), and therefore whether or not Jesus existed doesn't change the fact that I won't follow any established religion, proof of God or no.
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Re: The Jesus Myth
geo wrote:
stahrwe wrote:
And there are people like me who are not so ignorant of science who deny evolution because it defies sceintific priciples.
I very definitely don't want to know why you think "evolution denies scientific principles" because a) you are the most anti-science person I have ever talked to and b) due to your religious beliefs you are completely unreliable—you actually believe the earth is 8,000 years old! and c) your thoughts aren't even your own. You just regurgitate Creationist crap you get from your church or off the web.
Geo, be careful, the one time I used the word 'crap' in one of my posts, Chris did not like it and chastised me for doing so.
By anti-science you mean against science, that is not true, I love and respect science. If you mean ignorant of science that is not true either, my undergraduate major was physics.
_________________ “I think one of [James Hoffmeier’s] most important points is that we have unrealistic expectations for what archaeology can offer us as far as ‘proving’ Exodus: ‘After all, what evidence, short of an inscription in a Proto-Canaanite script stating “bricks made by Hebrew slaves” would be considered proof that the Israelites were in Egypt. Archaeology’s ability … is quite limited.’” Jeff Lambert, Editorial Associate, Biblical Archaeological Review. via email January 26, 2010 8:20:58 AM. [email receipiant redacted for privacy reasons. See Thread-The Bible's Buried Secrets for full text.]
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