The Image of God in man

Dawn · Tue May 03, 2011 3:48 pm

The Bible teaches that when God made man, He created him in His own image. (Gen 1:27) Apart from assuming an immaterial part of man this is without explanation (as aptly demonstrated by Johnson in the ‘Unraveling the Supernatural’ thread). God is spirit (John 4:24) and does not have a body. It is generally agreed upon by orthodox Bible scholars that the image of God in man involves the following elements:

--Personality. Man has a self-consciousness and a self-determination that enables him to make choices, distinguishing him from animals and making him capable of redemption. The intellect of man is in fact a part of the image of God in man. People are rational beings because God is a rational being.

--Spiritual being. Man has a non-material nature with the capacity to know God and fellowship with Him. This distinguishes him from the animals and gives him his eternal nature.

--Moral nature. Man was created with ‘original righteousness’—seen as good before God. This nature was lost in the fall but is restored through the redemption that is available in Jesus Christ.

These are core elements of the image of God as seen in all men, making it all the more ludicrous to think that we with our human minds can somehow ‘out-think’ and ‘out-moralize’ God Himself in whose image we are made. Nevertheless we exercise the free will we are created with in so doing. This is nothing new to our ‘modern’ times. In the beginning, man walked and talked with God—their knowledge of him intact, given all the knowledge needed to live a meaningful life with complete significance and security. Then as now, the temptation was to want more experiential knowledge than was beneficial, to be as God himself, to decide one’s own moral standards, to know good and evil. Man chose and marred the image of God in himself, though not obliterating it.

johnson1010 · Tue May 03, 2011 4:50 pm


	Quote: --Personality. Man has a self-consciousness and a self-determination that enables him to make choices, distinguishing him from animals and making him capable of redemption. The intellect of man is in fact a part of the image of God in man. People are rational beings because God is a rational being.

Personality is a product of brains. The more brains you have, the more defined, generally speaking, a personality you have. Animal lovers can attest the the very real, very predictable behavioral patterns observed in various pets which each have their own distinct personalities. That includes personality differences between members of the same species and even the same litter-mates. The same as is demonstrated in people.

This also includes the kinds of displays which we would all aknowledge were personality traits in humans, but which we call something else when demonstrated in non-humans, and especially for the sake of denying that animals have personality on the basis of maintaining unfounded assertions of humanity's special-ness. Dogs develope behavioral patterns very similarly to those of humans, for instance abused dogs are fearful, skittish, and cautious, whereas dogs that are loved generally return that love with enthusiasm.

We obviously cannot ask dogs directly how they feel, but we have asked several apes how they feel and they have responded in sign language. They demonstrate the same propensities as humans do, again, on a sliding scale.

Asserting humans have personality where all other animals do not does not hold up to the evidence which can be brought to bear against it.

The statements you make about God being rational, and that our own rationality is unfounded. And further, were we to accept that personality is a trait bestowed on man by god, then we must inevitably conclude that god has bestowed this same trait on animals, as it is very evidently present in them as well.


	Quote: --Spiritual being. Man has a non-material nature with the capacity to know God and fellowship with Him. This distinguishes him from the animals and gives him his eternal nature.

The capacity to know god would be a direct result of our having brains, this is very definitely a physical feature not dependant on any non-material anythings. Unless you intend to re-define the word "know" to mean something other than the acquisition of accurate information.


	Quote: --Moral nature. Man was created with ‘original righteousness’—seen as good before God. This nature was lost in the fall but is restored through the redemption that is available in Jesus Christ.

At no point is it in evidence that there is any original righteousness to be had, or that there was any falling from that nature, nor that Jesus existed as described, or that any ascention to afore mentioned hypothetical state of righteousness can be achieved by some interaction with this alleged Jesus.

All indications are that the origins of our morality has its roots in our animal ancestry. This would have been borne from group living. We can all agree that team work works better than going it alone. To facilitate teamwork, it is best that everyone in your team is cared for, as much as possible, for as long as they succeed, they help enable your success.

If we can even agree on this much then we have taken the first step towards moral treatment of one another, and if it is possible to take a step, then it is possible to walk across the continent. There have been great voumes of work produced on this study which all demonstrate at least the possibility of this account, but even if we refuse to aknowledge that then it would be obvious that moral behavior is observed daily in animals all across the planet.

Dogs have morality. If not, then why doesn't my dog simply kill the cats and eat their food? More food for him, right? Why doesnt he kill them and eat them?

Morality is how animals can co-exist with eachother for mutual gain.


	Quote: These are core elements of the image of God as seen in all men, making it all the more ludicrous to think that we with our human minds can somehow ‘out-think’ and ‘out-moralize’ God Himself in whose image we are made.

i agree. It would be ludicrous to argue with god. But then, i have never had to do that. All i have ever argued against is the fables written by men which it is not only possible to 'out-think' and 'out-moralize' but it has actually proven to be quite easy.

Usually attributable to the fact that these fables are written by un-educated superstitious ancients who knew less about the functioning of the world than a 1940's fifth grader.

I certainly wouldn't be able to catch god saying such easily disproven things as Bats are birds, or snails melt. Nor could i catch god telling us that slaves ought to shut up and take it, or that we ought to go murder some people because they make god all jealous and it just puts him in an absolute tizzy.

lady of shallot · Tue May 03, 2011 7:11 pm

Dawn:


	Quote: This is nothing new to our ‘modern’ times. In the beginning, man walked and talked with God—their knowledge of him intact, given all the knowledge needed to live a meaningful life with complete significance and security.

At what time in the evolution of man did this take place, Dawn? Or did it happen with the very first thing that crawled out of the seas and became through millennium what we are today?

Dawn · Wed May 04, 2011 12:16 am

I wouldn't know what the very first thing that crawled out of the sea would be, but it was no ancestor of mine (or yours). You are far more valuable than that, and yes, capable of interacting with the God who created you.
"And the LORD God formed man [of] the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.
And the LORD God planted a garden eastward in Eden; and there he put the man whom he had formed."

Dawn · Wed May 04, 2011 12:51 am

johnson1010 wrote:


	Quote: Dawn:--Personality. Man has a self-consciousness and a self-determination that enables him to make choices, distinguishing him from animals and making him capable of redemption. The intellect of man is in fact a part of the image of God in man. People are rational beings because God is a rational being.

Personality is a product of brains. The more brains you have, the more defined, generally speaking, a personality you have. Animal lovers can attest the the very real, very predictable behavioral patterns observed in various pets which each have their own distinct personalities. ....
Asserting humans have personality where all other animals do not does not hold up to the evidence which can be brought to bear against it.
... And further, were we to accept that personality is a trait bestowed on man by god, then we must inevitably conclude that god has bestowed this same trait on animals, as it is very evidently present in them as well.

The use of the term personality here is ambiguous. Certainly dogs have 'personality' in a loose sense. Different breeds differ. Different dogs differ. However none has that distinct 'personhood' that is given to man--the self-determining, decision-making, self-conscious quality that makes a person a person. And certainly this is not determined by IQ! A mentally disabled person is no less a person than is a genius. His ability to communicate who he is to you may differ but not his actual personhood.


	Quote: Dawn:--Spiritual being. Man has a non-material nature with the capacity to know God and fellowship with Him. This distinguishes him from the animals and gives him his eternal nature.


	Johnson wrote: The capacity to know god would be a direct result of our having brains, this is very definitely a physical feature not dependant on any non-material anythings. Unless you intend to re-define the word "know" to mean something other than the acquisition of accurate information.

Obviously there is a 'knowing about' something/someone and a 'knowing' that person.
The capacity to know God is not a matter for the brain only but for the soul of a person. It's unlikely that even knowing another person, beyond intellectual facts, is purely a brain matter. But be that as it may, relating to God is definitely more than brain matter. I can gain information about Him using my brain but communicating with Him goes beyond the use of the brain and is a soul matter. Even a demented person or one suffering from Alzheimers still has the capacity to communicate with God, though his brain be out of order. Animals do not have this capacity.


	Quote: Dawn:--Moral nature. Man was created with ‘original righteousness’—seen as good before God. This nature was lost in the fall but is restored through the redemption that is available in Jesus Christ.


	johnson wrote: All indications are that the origins of our morality has its roots in our animal ancestry. This would have been borne from group living. ....There have been great voumes of work produced on this study which all demonstrate at least the possibility of this account, but even if we refuse to aknowledge that then it would be obvious that moral behavior is observed daily in animals all across the planet. Dogs have morality. If not, then why doesn't my dog simply kill the cats and eat their food? More food for him, right? Why doesnt he kill them and eat them?

Can animals be immoral?


	Quote: Dawn:These are core elements of the image of God as seen in all men, making it all the more ludicrous to think that we with our human minds can somehow ‘out-think’ and ‘out-moralize’ God Himself in whose image we are made.


	Johnson wrote: ... un-educated superstitious ancients who knew less about the functioning of the world than a 1940's fifth grader.

This is uneducated jargon ill-fitting one claiming a superior knowledge base. Having the latest technology is not synonymous with having knowledge or being educated.

stahrwe · Wed May 04, 2011 8:34 am

I have been impressed with Dawn's clear presentation.

For those new to the discussion or BT I would like to address a comment made by Johnson1010 above.


	johnson1010 wrote: I certainly wouldn't be able to catch god saying such easily disproven things as Bats are birds, or snails melt. Nor could i catch god telling us that slaves ought to shut up and take it, or that we ought to go murder some people because they make god all jealous and it just puts him in an absolute tizzy.

I am sure that if you analyzed each user post on BT over time you would find certain key phrases or ideas which are favorites. For some it might be to associate the word magic with Christianity. Others resort to Flying Spaghetti Monster or just its initials FSM or pink unicorns, flying teapots, leprachauns, etc., etc. In Johnson1010'a case he has a list of questions and criticisms of the Bible which he thinks are show stoppers. He hit me with the list about 2 years ago and they were answered then. But just as urban legends will persist despite refutation the same questions keep coming up. In Johnson1010's defense, he didn't come up with the list. If memory serves me I found the list verbatim on an atheist website so it isn't really his fault that many of the items were ridiculous to the point of being funny. Most of those involved taking a Bible verse out of context and all that was neede was to look up the verse and read the surrounding verse to reveal the obsurdity of the criticism.

In the case of the brief reference Johnson1010 made to his goto support file, these were dealt with too. Johnson1010's proposition is that if the Bible is error free, and he can find an error then the entire Bible can be rejected. In the above post, Johnson1010 has seized upon snails and bats as his point of attack. I remind him of the following:

Regarding snails melting.
Psalm 58 reads:


	Quote: 1 Do ye indeed speak righteousness, O congregation? do ye judge uprightly, O ye sons of men? 2 Yea, in heart ye work wickedness; ye weigh the violence of your hands in the earth. 3 The wicked are estranged from the womb: they go astray as soon as they be born, speaking lies. 4 Their poison is like the poison of a serpent: they are like the deaf adder that stoppeth her ear; 5 Which will not hearken to the voice of charmers, charming never so wisely. 6 Break their teeth, O God, in their mouth: break out the great teeth of the young lions, O LORD. 7 Let them melt away as waters which run continually: when he bendeth his bow to shoot his arrows, let them be as cut in pieces. 8 As a snail which melteth, let every one of them pass away: like the untimely birth of a woman, that they may not see the sun. 9 Before your pots can feel the thorns, he shall take them away as with a whirlwind, both living, and in his wrath. 10 The righteous shall rejoice when he seeth the vengeance: he shall wash his feet in the blood of the wicked. 11 So that a man shall say, Verily there is a reward for the righteous: verily he is a God that judgeth in the earth.

As pointed out to Johnson1010 the book of Psalms is a book of poetry and it is clear from the full text of Pslam 58 that numerous metaphors and similes are being used. This Psalm is not intended to be taken literally. At least that is what I told Johnson1010 18+ months ago or so.

He countered my maintaining that despite the poetic language the Bible still states that snails melt in a way that might be interpreted as factual and therefore since this is an error the entire Bible can be dismissed. Neither premise is on firm footing but I referred him to an article ( National Chemistry Week repost: How does salt melt snails?
Oct 19 2010 by Janet D. Stemwedel Ph.D in physical chemistry (dr.freeride@gmail.com). (whose nom de blog is Dr. Free-Ride) is an associate professor of philosophy at San Jose State University.


	Quote: How does salt melt snails? Category: Basic concepts • Chemistry • Critters • Garden Posted on: May 11, 2009 5:55 PM, by Janet D. Stemwedel In light of our recent snail eradication project: Why does salt "melt" snails and slugs? (And how do people manage to prepare escargot without ending up with a big pot of goo?) To answer this question, let us consider the snail as seen by the chemist: http://scientopia.org/blogs/ethicsandsc ... lt-snails/

You can read the article if you wish, my point is that if a 21st Century scientist refers to snails melting the Bible should be allowed that lattitude too.

As for bats, that was dealt with at length as well. It has to do with translantions. If you are interested go back to those old posts.

As for his other points, it is easy to cast his stones from the sidelines but he has consistently refused to participate in a systematic discussion of the Bible even though it was promoted by the owner of BT. There are explanations but it is part of the whole picture one gets from the Bible.

johnson1010 · Wed May 04, 2011 9:10 am

Maybe you would like to direct these new readers to the threads where we already discussed these things, Stahrwe?

stahrwe · Wed May 04, 2011 9:59 am


	johnson1010 wrote: Maybe you would like to direct these new readers to the threads where we already discussed these things, Stahrwe?

If you are going to bring up the issues I will provide a brief rebuttal with a suggestion that interested individuals visit the discussion and that is what I did.

You know as well as I do that most of those canned objections are not worth the electons to post them. They function as distractions, which is what you were doing above, and/or fly paper

Interbane · Wed May 04, 2011 10:53 am

Dawn, why do you quote the bible as if it has some authority? You're more likely to repel people than gain ground. Most of the people here understand that the bible has no authority, that the actions of it's former adherents strip it of any authority. It's just a fiction book, like so many other fiction books around the world. Gods don't write books honey, men do.

DWill · Wed May 04, 2011 11:32 am


	Dawn wrote: These are core elements of the image of God as seen in all men, making it all the more ludicrous to think that we with our human minds can somehow ‘out-think’ and ‘out-moralize’ God Himself in whose image we are made. Nevertheless we exercise the free will we are created with in so doing. This is nothing new to our ‘modern’ times. In the beginning, man walked and talked with God—their knowledge of him intact, given all the knowledge needed to live a meaningful life with complete significance and security. Then as now, the temptation was to want more experiential knowledge than was beneficial, to be as God himself, to decide one’s own moral standards, to know good and evil. Man chose and marred the image of God in himself, though not obliterating it.

From my point of view, there is irony in the idea that we humans cannot claim to know anything with certainty, because we must rely on our fallible humanity, yet every jot and tittle we see in the Bible is authorized truth. I believe you are accepting what you say shouldn't be accepted--the provisional approximations of the truth that people have been coming up with for three millennia.

johnson1010 · Wed May 04, 2011 1:45 pm

It is interesting that you won't post links to those discussions, Stahrwe.

Perhaps covering that tanned ass?

Those interested in those discussions can go here, where i gathered some of those links.
the-dunning-kruger-effect-t10335.html

stahrwe · Wed May 04, 2011 2:19 pm


	Interbane wrote: Dawn, why do you quote the bible as if it has some authority? You're more likely to repel people than gain ground. Most of the people here understand that the bible has no authority, that the actions of it's former adherents strip it of any authority. It's just a fiction book, like so many other fiction books around the world. Gods don't write books honey, men do.

"Honey?" what, are we back in 1950? What a chauvenistic, condescending attitude.

As for actions of its 'former' adherents. I don't undertand what you mean by that. If you mean people who claim to be Christians but behave badly, the Bible can hardly be blamed for that and their actions cannot be used to diminish the authority of the Bible. Here I am thinking of the Westboro Baptists, etc. On the other hand, if you mean people like the following, they certainly support the authority of the Bible;

Mother Theresa
George Muller
Horatio Spafford
Nate and Rachel Saint
William and Catherine Booth
Desmond T. Doss (tat's favorite)
David Brainerd
William Carey
William Wilberforce
Elizabeth Fry
Charlotte (Lottie) Moon
...

I am going to leave off here not because of lack of candidates but to allow time to look these names up.

Interbane · Wed May 04, 2011 2:29 pm


	Quote: You can read the article if you wish, my point is that if a 21st Century scientist refers to snails melting the Bible should be allowed that lattitude too. As for bats, that was dealt with at length as well. It has to do with translantions. If you are interested go back to those old posts.

You're perfectly blind to the problem here. Who are you to tell us that the authors weren't talking about snails actually melting like rainwater? You do not have the authority to say that that interpretation is incorrect. Even though such a thing is impossible, that does not mean it's the wrong interpretation. It would make it false, fiction, but it still has an equal chance of being the true intent of the author. Based on what evidence or reasoning do you choose one interpretation over the other?

As for the one about bats, it makes sense that the ancients would mistake bats for birds. I would also if I lived during those times. No harm done. It's obviously not divinely inspired, but we should be aware that people make mistakes.

Interbane · Wed May 04, 2011 2:38 pm


	Quote: Here I am thinking of the Westboro Baptists, etc.

Correct. Charles Manson used to give money to the Red Cross too. I was thinking of greater misdeeds, like the Inquisition and such. It is impossible that the supposed "authority on morality" could lead to any such event, no matter how bad the misinterpretations, no matter how evil the human. At the very least, it would repel the men who attempt to use it to justify their goals. Instead, the bible has entire paragraphs that can be used to support evil motives! It is most certainly not divinely inspired, to make so many people act in such evil ways over so long a period of time. Any one of the atheists on Booktalk.org are capable right now to rewrite the bible into a far FAR more moral version. Foreseeing misunderstandings and misinterpretations is not that hard, the ancients obviously didn't give much thought to what they were writing.

I think you and I should start up a worship service for Osama Bin Laden, since he gives candy to local Muslim children. Cause if you can think of a good thing, it cancels out every bad thing! Hail mother Teresa!

stahrwe · Wed May 04, 2011 2:39 pm


	johnson1010 wrote: It is interesting that you won't post links to those discussions, Stahrwe. Perhaps covering that tanned ass? Those interested in those discussions can go here, where i gathered some of those links. the-dunning-kruger-effect-t10335.html

More vulgarity? The posts are easy enough to locate, just search snail as the keyword and stahrwe as the author. You'll get 7 hits.

I did not providie a link for a couple of reasons:

1) the overwhelming majority of the criticisms of the Bible were so insipid as to be unbelievable to any but the most ardent atheist. Anyone else will be wasting your time.

2) the point of this discussion is not apologetics per se, so bringing the Book of Atheist Urban Legends About the Bible into this discussion is counter productive. You brought the subject up to get your digs in and divert attention and I was merely making the point that, sorry as they are, the die hards continue to stick with dispensed with darts because that is all you have.

As for the dunning-kruger effect; Those new to BT or who are unfamiliar with the term should know that it refers to someone who thinks they are an expert in a subject which they actually know nothing about. I am sure Johnson1010 will find that definition lacking but it is close enough. What is ironic and actually amusing is that he tries to imply that Christians and me especially are guilty of that effect, when he is the one who insists on perpetuating incorrect statements about Christianity and the Bible when he knows little about either and refuses to even investigate his criticisms to see if they are legitimate.

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